Fulham vs Arsenal - 08/12/2024 - KO: 14:00 GMT

[HCZ_Reborn]

On paper anyway I think this is the toughest fixture remaining to us in 2024, when we played them on New Year’s Eve it was the last time we had a lead in a game and went on to lose.

We’ve only lost six times in all competitions this year (compared to 12 in 2023, and 12 in 2024). I expect them to certainly be more ambitious coming forward than Man United were. We come into this fixture in better form than we did last year (unbeaten in five) and as long as we overestimate no one we should win every game between now and the end of the year. Then we have a big test in the space of three days where we play Brentford and Brighton away (a massive test in fact)

But Sunday will be a test in its own way, the consideration will be whether we feel we can do a bit of squad reshuffling with a champions league game coming up against Monaco (I think we need to win all three of our remaining games which I believe we should be capable of) and I think like the midweek game against United this is more likely to be a ground out three points (they’ve only previously lost games where they’ve been reduced to less than 11 men through both injury and infraction)

[Marc Overmars]

This fixture was undoubtedly the worst performance of last season.

Time to put that right.

[The Wengerbabies]

3-0 Smith-Rowe, Nelson, Iwobi

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

3-0 Smith-Rowe, Nelson, Iwobi

:lol: ....... Nelson is club tied, it's like predicting Boa-Morte's name on the scoresheet.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Everton v Liverpool has been postponed so a real chance for scoreboard pressure.

2-0 Fulham.

[Letters]

I hope we win, tbh

[The Wengerbabies]

:lol: ....... Nelson is club tied, it's like predicting Boa-Morte's name on the scoresheet.

In that case, Leno

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol: ....... Nelson is club tied, it's like predicting Boa-Morte's name on the scoresheet.

Damn it, should have predicted 3-0 Boa-Morte hatter :lol:


Oh well


3-0 Legwinski hatter

[HCZ_Reborn]

Everton v Liverpool has been postponed so a real chance for scoreboard pressure.

2-0 Fulham.


When it’s played will be last every Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Utter shithole of a ground. I’ve seen the new place from a distance (as it’s all fenced off still). Right on the banks of the Mersey

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

When it’s played will be last every Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Utter shithole of a ground. I’ve seen the new place from a distance (as it’s all fenced off still). Right on the banks of the Mersey

Yeah all of a sudden the gap may be a lot smaller. :ninja:

Their new ground looks really good, though it does look a bit.... boring inside. It'll be an absolute bastard to go to in the winter though.

Come on Fulham etc

[HCZ_Reborn]

Still no Gabriel or Calafiori, in addition no Zinchenko. As much as he’s defensively a liability, playing Timber on the left completely nullifies our attacking threat on the left

[Mac76]

It's necessary, Zin would be taken apart by Fulham, we've no choice but Partey at RB and Timber at LB

[Mac76]

3-0 Iwobi hatter btw

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Fulham: Leno; Tete, Diop, Bassey, Robinson; Berge, Lukic; Adama, Smith Rowe, Iwobi, Jimenez
Subs: Benda, Castagne, Cuenca, Sessegnon, Andreas, King, Godo, Wilson, Muniz

Arsenal: Raya; Partey, Saliba, Kiwior, Timber; Jorginho, Rice, Odegaard; Saka, Havertz, Trossard
Subs: Neto, Tierney, Heaven, Lewis-Skelly, Merino, Sterling, Jesus, Martinelli, Nwaneri

[HCZ_Reborn]

Don’t agree. I think they will try to target us at set pieces with Kiwior in and Gabriel not available. And I think our objective has to be to win rather than simply trying not to lose. Timber at left back is useless, Partey at right back is a waste of his midfield ability and putting Rice at 8 is an equal waste. The main problem we had in last seasons game was struggling to create chances.

[Mac76]

Don’t agree. I think they will try to target us at set pieces with Kiwior in and Gabriel not available. And I think our objective has to be to win rather than simply trying not to lose. Timber at left back is useless, Partey at right back is a waste of his midfield ability and putting Rice at 8 is an equal waste. The main problem we had in last seasons game was struggling to create chances.

well i'd prefer either MLS or dare i say it Tierney at LB but the former is coming back from injury and the latter hasn't played a competitive game since Scotland in the Euros, plus Arteta doesn't actually like LBs

[HCZ_Reborn]

well i'd prefer either MLS or dare i say it Tierney at LB but the former is coming back from injury and the latter hasn't played a competitive game since Scotland in the Euros, plus Arteta doesn't actually like LBs

And I’d prefer someone who can be a liability defensively but will help us coming forward to a kid who has barely played top flight football or someone who could be injured by a strong wind blowing. When Arteta is cautious, it doesn’t help our defence and only manages to stymy our attack

[Mac76]

And I’d prefer someone who can be a liability defensively but will help us coming forward to a kid who has barely played top flight football or someone who could be injured by a strong wind blowing. When Arteta is cautious, it doesn’t help our defence and only manages to stymy our attack

Zin is a gauranteed goal for the opposition when they have someone like Traore who, while crap in front of goal, can have someone like him on toast (as admittedly can 90% of wingers in the league)

I normally don't like Arteta's aution but Zin is a built-in self-destruct mechanism, don't forget it was him who fucked up against Fulham at our place last season and cost us the two points we needed to win the league

[HCZ_Reborn]

Zin is a gauranteed goal for the opposition when they have someone like Traore who, while crap in front of goal, can have someone like him on toast (as admittedly can 90% of wingers in the league)

I normally don't like Arteta's aution but Zin is a built-in self-destruct mechanism, don't forget it was him who fucked up against Fulham at our place last season and cost us the two points we needed to win the league

Yes I do remember that game, particularly that it happened in August. Just as I remember he didn’t actually play in the game at Craven Cottage on New Year’s Eve.

No instead Traore will rinse Partey for pace

[HCZ_Reborn]

And I think it’s academic anyway as Zinchenko isn’t even on the bench which suggests he’s injured

[Mac76]

And I think it’s academic anyway as Zinchenko isn’t even on the bench which suggests he’s injured

Or not an option if we havr MLS and Tierney to come on, tbh you don't finish a game with Zin, you take him off and shore things up

[HCZ_Reborn]

Or not an option if we havr MLS and Tierney to come on, tbh you don't finish a game with Zin, you take him off and shore things up

Nope

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/arsenal-fc-injury-latest-oleksandr-zinchenko-mikel-arteta-b1198741.html

[Mac76]

Damn

[HCZ_Reborn]

Hmmm not good. Most likely game and title over

[Mac76]

Nope

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/arsenal-fc-injury-latest-oleksandr-zinchenko-mikel-arteta-b1198741.html

It's no loss tbh

[Mac76]

I wish Ode would take on the shot more often

[Marc Overmars]

Us. :rose:

[Mac76]

Us. :rose:

Really aggressive start from Fulham tbf, we need to hold tight, another goal and it's very tough

[HCZ_Reborn]

Really aggressive start from Fulham tbf, we need to hold tight, another goal and it's very tough

Not sure 1-0 or 2-0 makes a lot of difference

Our record at coming from behind away from home is shockingly poor

Been over a year since we got a point after conceding the first goal in the premier league and been 20 months since we’ve gone on to win

[Mac76]

Saka puts the FK too near Leno

[Mac76]

Rice :doh:

[Mac76]

Traore :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

Blunt as anything. Hard to see us getting anything here without some dramatic improvement.

[Mac76]

Agent Smith-Rowe fluffs a chance

[Mac76]

Blunt as anything. Hard to see us getting anything here without some dramatic improvement.

Yeah I'd think about bringing on MLS or Tierney at HT to get Timber back to LB

[Mac76]

Nearly from Rice

[HCZ_Reborn]

We are I think going back over 15 years to the last time we were behind in a game at half time, hadn’t scored and still got all three points at the end

[Mac76]

1-0 HT

pretty lame tbh, we still look too slow in our play in games like these, maybe need Martinelli on fairly soon in the second half, also Nwaneri can maybe do something

[McNamara That Ghost...]

:lol:

Shite like last year.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

TBH, I'd be pleased if we could leave with at least a point from this game.

The attack is blunt with only Saka worth mentioning and unfortunately the best chances keep falling to Declan Rice who by now most of us will agree we should have only paid £50m or so for.

We need something. Either Odegaard wakes up (which I don't think will happen) or we hope Fulham make mistakes and the chances don't fall to Rice and the most of the others on the pitch. I hate relying on other's mistakes so I'd suggest we throw Nwaneri on early in this game and still leave Odegaard on.

BTW, also not impressed with Jorginho in this game. He seems to have embraced his role as a part time footballer on fulltime wages.

[Mac76]

Salibaaaaa!

[Mac76]

Uh-oh offside?

[Mac76]

Looks on to me

[dazthegooner]

Given

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

We were lucky with that VAR.

We are ahead but we've had so many half chances that one must wonder when we are going to buy a "real" striker to take advantage of them.

[Mac76]

Wasted by Trossard

[Mac76]

Havertz :doh:

[Mac76]

Nwaneri could make a real difference here but having not played him enough previously Arteta's not using him now

[Mac76]

Jesus is hopeless

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I'll actively campaign for Arteta's sack if we really don't look for a striker in January.

Its never been this bad at Arsenal for strikers. Even when Lord Bendtner was leading our line, there was more hope than this.

[Mac76]

Nwaneri finally coming on

[Marc Overmars]

While I find it funny how triggered everyone is over our set piece threat, it’s also concerning that we aren’t doing anywhere near enough in open play anymore. Mainly because of the lack of decent striking options.

[Mac76]

Sakaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

SAKA!!!

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Saka......as usual.

[Mac76]

Uh-oh could be off?

[Marc Overmars]

Martinelli is a moron being offside there.

[Mac76]

It's off

[dazthegooner]

Well we weren’t going to get 2 VAR decisions in one match

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Martinelli is a moron being offside there.

As pissed off as I might be with him....I am 100% certain if Havertz was on the field he would have found away to be offside 3 times in that single move.

[Mac76]

Rice :rolleyes:

[Mac76]

Martinelli's going to get a red in a minute

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Well at half time, I said I'd be happy with a point.

It's really a shame. It' turning out to be a season that with all the little improvements made (largely our dead ball party trick), if we had gone a step further and gotten our recruitment right, we could have walked the league.

A bit like the Leicester season HCZ loves to talk about :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 FT.

Fuck sake.

[Marc Overmars]

FT 1-1

Liverpool strolling to the title really.

[Mac76]

The refs plus a lack of goal-scoring threat have given us too much to do this season IMO, but if we can pub a cup win and finish top 4 it would be something

But we 100% need to be giving Nwaneri more minutes plus buy a striker

[HCZ_Reborn]

That’s the title over, as much as I don’t rate Liverpool at all. You simply can’t drop points against mid table teams like this. 12 points from 8 away from home is just not good enough and we don’t have the excuse of tough away fixtures. If we can’t beat Fulham, how are we going to beat Brentford and Brighton back to back.

Arteta deserves not only to be sacked but to be gelded as well, but given we live in a “civilised” age…he will get to keep his balls

[HCZ_Reborn]

The refs plus a lack of goal-scoring threat have given us too much to do this season IMO, but if we can pub a cup win and finish top 4 it would be something

But we 100% need to be giving Nwaneri more minutes plus buy a striker

It will be nothing, fuck the cups. We didn’t spend almost 700 million for a tin pot trophy and to watch us be humiliated by a second rate Liverpool team.

Arteta can get the fuck out now as far as I’m concerned

I don’t want us spending any money in January if he’s still coach

[HCZ_Reborn]

FT 1-1

Liverpool strolling to the title really.

Oh they won’t stroll to the title, they aren’t good enough. You only need to see how easily they were opened up against Newcastle for that. Unfortunately we are too shit to capitalise.

Then again maybe Chelsea will give them trouble, but then again they are second rate as well

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That’s the title over, as much as I don’t rate Liverpool at all. You simply can’t drop points against mid table teams like this. 12 points from 8 away from home is just not good enough and we don’t have the excuse of tough away fixtures. If we can’t beat Fulham, how are we going to beat Brentford and Brighton back to back.

Arteta deserves not only to be sacked but to be gelded as well, but given we live in a “civilised” age…he will get to keep his balls

Well Brighton and Brentford play in very different ways but I get the overall point.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well Brighton and Brentford play in very different ways but I get the overall point.

Yes we were without Gabriel, but the way Jiminez went past Kiwior was almost as embarassing as how easily Isaak turned Van Dijk.

They play differently but we can’t even rely on shut outs anymore. Arteta has not only neglected the squad in the forward areas, his pointless tinkering has made us more fragile because of fucking about with midfield (Rice at number 8, when he should be being used to stay back and snuff out danger) because he prefers buying players like Merino who plays like he has muscular dystrophy to actually quick and creative players.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It is an issue that one player out can mean three different positions change.

Can't function as a team if you keep doing that.

Also why can't we see Odegaard and Nwaneri on the pitch at the same time?

[HCZ_Reborn]

It is an issue that one player out can mean three different positions change.

Can't function as a team if you keep doing that.

Also why can't we see Odegaard and Nwaneri on the pitch at the same time?

Hand on the chicken switch.

[Niall_Quinn]

FT 1-1

Liverpool strolling to the title really.

No. They have a poor defence and they have a fatally flawed striker in the halfwit Nunez. They won't last the pace. The gypos will bounce back, measure the challenge against them. And the chavs are a dark horse, don't know much about them but they seem to get the business done by hook or by crook.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No. They have a poor defence and they have a fatally flawed striker in the halfwit Nunez. They won't last the pace. The gypos will bounce back, measure the challenge against them. And the chavs are a dark horse, don't know much about them but they seem to get the business done by hook or by crook.

Dunno about City coming back into it. Some of their best players have seen better days, their current best player is out for the season and that doesn’t seem like a happy environment (things are all rosey when they are going your way).


It’s why I’m furious, because I think what you say about Liverpool is largely accurate. But I don’t think we will be there to take advantage

[IBK]

Yes we were without Gabriel, but the way Jiminez went past Kiwior was almost as embarassing as how easily Isaak turned Van Dijk.

They play differently but we can’t even rely on shut outs anymore. Arteta has not only neglected the squad in the forward areas, his pointless tinkering has made us more fragile because of fucking about with midfield (Rice at number 8, when he should be being used to stay back and snuff out danger) because he prefers buying players like Merino who plays like he has muscular dystrophy to actually quick and creative players.

This.

We are not going to win the title gents. And we are not going to win under Arteta. This is not an over reaction to 2 dropped points, but an observation on who we are now. A team with title aspirations does not fail to put the game to bed against a mid table quality team. A team that needs to up the pressure against league leaders who dropped points in midweek and whose postponed game meant we could have been within 4 points of them does not spurn the opportunity to do so.

Let's face it, apart from our injury-ravaged back 4 we were at full strength today. Yet we can't score from open play? Many Gooners were lauging at the 'Stoke' sobriquet levelled against us. But that is what we are when faced with stubborn opposition where we don't score first.

And how can a team obsessed with signing defenders be in a position where we are so disrupted by injuries at the back? Last year's defensive capability has vanished. How many times this season have we seen an opposition team score with their first attack? we are vulnerable at the back and seem so easily to be rendered toothless in attack when facing a well organised opposition.

We are, unfortunately a team that crumbles unless we have our first 11 unavailable - despite having spent so much on our squad. This is on Arteta. I said recently that our manager may not know how to create an effective/resiliant attack and I stand by this.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We are victims of Arteta’s pathological stubbornness, and his innate conservatism

To be a handful from set pieces should be something we are able to deploy as one of many threats, it should not be our single angle of attack.

I think in many ways this insistence on playing two holding midfielders harms us, because we don’t have natural ball players behind Odegaard, the ball takes longer to get up the pitch which gives the defence time to get into shape and it means because we have to overcommit with bodies it means that teams can catch us out with one long ball or just a good run.


I don’t think you can blame Kiwior too much for Jiminez bursting past him, he was left totally exposed. The thing is we as a team naturally push up anyway, our defence plays a high line but equally Newcastle scored with their first attack where as we dominate the ball but because we lack a threat in the centre of midfield a lot as Odegaard is left by himself, we dither a bit and then get caught out.

Arguably you can see the same thing happen against Man City. Overcommit, careless pass or dispossessed and we are pounced upon, the individual defending hasn’t got worse…it’s just teams know how to get at us and not having control properly in the centre of the park. And that’s even before you get to the wastefulness of our forward players.

I think the following has to end


Timber cannot play left back anymore, Partey cannot play right back anymore, Rice either plays at 6 or not at all….he lacks the technique or dynamism to be a box to box player.

We shouldn’t have two holding midfielders at all unless we are playing teams where we need to be cautious. We are too slow against teams that sit deep, and this is the main reason for that.

I stand by what I said earlier, I don’t think we should sign a striker in January…Arteta’s judgement cannot be trusted.

We shouldn’t give up on the title but we should tell Arteta that either way we are to part ways at the end of the season. Even if by chance he wins the title, it will be because of a spectacular collapse by Liverpool and we need someone who can take us forward not someone who lucks out despite himself.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I don't think this is as complicated as you guys above are making it.

It would be 5 years and all we have to show for his stewardship is one FA cup and a possible superstar in Saka who fell in his lap.

Its really simple, we win the EPL or CL or he goes. Even Klopp, who's aged team is tearing up the league still had the decency to leave when he realised he couldn't stand the daily grind. He has high standards so he didn't need to be nudged. Unfortunately we are serially afflicted with coaches who don't have this kind of dignity.

I expect the excuse this season to be that "Edu leaving really through a spanner in the works" :lol: Its funny anyone would come up with that excuse when we are being bested by a double act of rookie championship level managers who got the job 4 months ago!!!

He needs to leave at the end of the season if what we really want hasn't been delivered...or we'll do another 10 years, with Saka, Saliba, Odegaard and Nwaneri effing off with nothing to show for it.

Its AW (without the success) happening all over again and some fans are actually falling for this crap.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The irony is, if Klopp left because he felt that no matter what he did with Liverpool he couldn’t best Man City (I think ultimately it’s more complicated than that, or a manager of his calibre would be back in management again). Is that someone who is a cheap imitation of Klopp (perhaps unfair on Slot, he does have his own style of play…but he’s been smart enough to keep to the Klopp blue print) might achieve something as a result of Man City’s collapse and Arsenal being blinded by the lights when we should have been the beneficiaries of City’s collapse.

I think ultimately a coach should have three seasons to prove himself, barring a dreadful sequence of results (a sequence like that happened for Arteta in the 2020-2021 season and I think the only thing that prevented him from getting the push was because we had sacked Emery only recently). So whilst I don’t think a coach should be kept in perpetuity whilst the goal posts get moved on what constitutes success.

I equally don’t like the hiring and firing policy of clubs like Chelsea which doesn’t give a coach chance to mould the team in their image, erases any effort to create a sense of consistency and ultimately can only ever work (if it works at all) with a club perpetually able to throw money at the problem. A bit like how Nate Silver describes Elon Musk’s gambling style…throw money at it and be prepared to reap huge losses until you eventually win.


I don’t want that strategy for Arsenal, I want the premier league for sure…to the point where everything else is subordinate to that goal. But I don’t want one premier league, I want to win the title, retain the title build a dynasty. The core players we have in Saliba, Gabriel, Odegaard and Saka as well as other key players in the squad such as Rice, Havertz, Trossard, Timber, Calafiori and Raya are good enough to not make that ambition fanciful. But we still have too much dross…whilst Partey and Jorginho are good they are the wrong side of thirty and they’ve had their best days.


We need a top striker for whom Havertz and Trossard can act as backup to


We need someone who will allow Martinelli to meet what in my view is the clear potential to be as good as Saka if not surpass him. The technique and raw pace is there, the confidence? Not so much


Arteta for all his flaws has instilled a much better mentality in this team than has existed under former coaches, we don’t get scared at the idea of going away to big sides….we know we can mix it with them. In fact the problem is we are more likely to suffer at the hands of mid table streetwise teams. I want to keep what has worked well with him at the helm, but move beyond him because it’s clear he can’t move beyond his shortcomings


We need to worry less about control and more about attacking execution. We know we can defend a lead, we need a side built to establish that lead and then tear apart any team that wants to get back into the game.

[KSE Comedy Club]

It is an issue that one player out can mean three different positions change.

Can't function as a team if you keep doing that.

Also why can't we see Odegaard and Nwaneri on the pitch at the same time?

Because Arteta is a coward.

Same reason all his subs are like for like, he never changes the formation or mixes up the play.

[IBK]

I think its unfair to take the view that Arteta should have achieved sucees in 3 years. He inherited a basket case of a club and needed to re-establish a team drifting below the CL places and beset by a lack of cohesion; strategy and mentality - the complete opposite of what Slot walked into at Liverpool.

But this should have been our year. 2 second places - the last season an improvement on the one before and a near perfect 2024, beaten to the title by a monster of a team by only 2 points.

Instead, in a season where Citeh are stuttering; having spent over £700m on players since he arrived, and being given huge latitude to build a team that can complete the 5th stage of the project, its obvious that Arsenal is regressing rather than pushing on.

I am not being knee jerk here, and I am not saying that Arteta has 'failed' or playing down what he has undoubtedly achieved, but (like HCZ says) simply acknowledging the evidence that suggests that Arteta has reached his ceiling. He has built a team that relies too much on the first 12/13 being fit and on form - while signing players with lamentable fitness records; is based on too often sterile possession; requires perfection to execute a game plan effectively (and is vulnerable to counter attcking when this doesn't happen as is inevitably the case); has neglected its attack and does not get the best out of key players.

This is all relative of course - we are 3rd in the league. But by his own objectives, the manager is falling short and our lack of cutting edge when faced with stubborn opponents is a strand that has run through the whole of his tenure.

Perhaps yesterday's game - more than any other this season, encapsulates our 'close but no cigar' character - and I have to say that I no longer really trust Arteta to buy the players we need.

[IBK]

Can I add that for different reasons the Jesus signing has been an abject failure as has Sterling. Both need to be exited ASAP.

[Marc Overmars]

Sterling doesn’t bother me because I think we knew what we were getting with him but Jesus, what a waste of 50m he has turned out to be. You can’t carry passengers like that if you’re trying to win a title. He’s senior player with bags of top level experience and medals to his name but you’d never know it. No striker of any substance goes on a barren spell like he has. Just one goal to his name since February, which was against Preston. Fucking dire.

[Letters]

No striker of any substance goes on a barren spell like he has. Just one goal to his name since February, which was against Preston.
:lol:

Wow.

I've been a bit of an apologist for him because I've always felt that while he's not prolific, he adds something to us going forward.
But that's bloody awful :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

The thing is he was never prolific at Man City either, it felt to me that signing him was signalling that we don’t go in for the traditional centre forward. I think we have been more than patient with him and it’s time the club started leaving travel brochures for Saudi Arabia around the training ground

[IBK]

My issue with him is that he doen;t even look like he is busting a gut trying to change things any more. 1 completed pass of just 6 yesterday, and those are his only stats from 20 mins of play. Total Lacazette at the end vibes for me.

Sterling cannot even make it off the bench at the end of a game where we need a goal. I know we wondered whether his lack of tracking back had made Arteta anti him, but tracking back was not needed after 80 mins in this game.

[Letters]

The thing is he was never prolific at Man City either, it felt to me that signing him was signalling that we don’t go in for the traditional centre forward. I think we have been more than patient with him and it’s time the club started leaving travel brochures for Saudi Arabia around the training ground

:lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

My issue with him is that he doen;t even look like he is busting a gut trying to change things any more. 1 completed pass of just 6 yesterday, and those are his only stats from 20 mins of play. Total Lacazette at the end vibes for me.

Sterling cannot even make it off the bench at the end of a game where we need a goal. I know we wondered whether his lack of tracking back had made Arteta anti him, but tracking back was not needed after 80 mins in this game.

Sterling is a player who relied on pace, when you’re quick and technically good you don’t need to be strong as long as you’re short as the low centre of gravity helps you. Sterling’s pace has gone, it’s far far too easy to muscle him off the ball.

He’d be better off whittling down his career in a less physical league

[Mac76]

Can I add that for different reasons the Jesus signing has been an abject failure as has Sterling. Both need to be exited ASAP.

Jesus was excellent when he first came to the club, that great start to the season two years ago simply wouldn't have happened without him

but the injury he got at the World Cup seemed to affect him from then on and he's since regressed into a player who not only can't score but doesn't do much else of use either

A real shame but the point is, he is no longer the player we bought, it doesn't make it a bad signing

Zin on the other hand - I genuinely believe we would have won the title last year without him in the side

[HCZ_Reborn]

Jesus was excellent when he first came to the club, that great start to the season two years ago simply wouldn't have happened without him

but the injury he got at the World Cup seemed to affect him from then on and he's since regressed into a player who not only can't score but doesn't do much else of use either

A real shame but the point is, he is no longer the player we bought, it doesn't make it a bad signing

Zin on the other hand - I genuinely believe we would have won the title last year without him in the side

I have to say the whole Zinchenko thing is one of the biggest examples of a post hoc fallacy I can think of…unless you’re saying he was responsible for us losing to Villa at home as well (and whilst his casual meandering certainly didn’t help, that was a game we needed to win, not just not lose and we created shit). But if you want to attribute the dropped two points in August to us not winning the title, there’s a far more explicit culprit and that’s Arteta. The guy who dicked around with the lineup so we looked second best to Fulham for two thirds of that home game.

And Jesus was missing chances, right, left and centre even before he got injured at the World Cup. Yes his work rate was good but it was Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli creating space for him. I think apart from the fact that Arteta insists on playing him centrally which doesn’t work, he’s a lazy shit. Often just won’t make runs or make himself available for passing

For me you can tell the difference between a player who has lost something as a result of injury and a player who isn’t trying. Eduardo fell into the former category, I always think if you suffer an injury shocker like that it can stay in the back of your mind and it affects your reactions and instincts.

You’ve got to be prepared to do the leg work in the premier league even if things are not going for you. Trossard has been having a stinker at times this season, but what I will say for him is that the effort is always there

[HCZ_Reborn]

Apart from anything else, assume for a second Zinchenko doesn’t come on as a sub in the Fulham game. And then suppose further that we don’t end up drawing from some foul up anyway. Why then assume that the rest of the season would unfold the way it did, perhaps Rodri doesn’t get sent off against Nottingham Forest and then he’s available for the game at Wolves away and Arsenal away (where City lose both games). He’s not injured when they play Aston Villa and they don’t lose that game either. Now of course it’s not to say that they wouldn’t have lost those games if Rodri was playing, but I don’t think it’s just a coincidence that City haven’t lost a league game he’s played in for almost two years.

[IBK]

I have to say the whole Zinchenko thing is one of the biggest examples of a post hoc fallacy I can think of…unless you’re saying he was responsible for us losing to Villa at home as well (and whilst his casual meandering certainly didn’t help, that was a game we needed to win, not just not lose and we created shit). But if you want to attribute the dropped two points in August to us not winning the title, there’s a far more explicit culprit and that’s Arteta. The guy who dicked around with the lineup so we looked second best to Fulham for two thirds of that home game.

And Jesus was missing chances, right, left and centre even before he got injured at the World Cup. Yes his work rate was good but it was Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli creating space for him. I think apart from the fact that Arteta insists on playing him centrally which doesn’t work, he’s a lazy shit. Often just won’t make runs or make himself available for passing

For me you can tell the difference between a player who has lost something as a result of injury and a player who isn’t trying. Eduardo fell into the former category, I always think if you suffer an injury shocker like that it can stay in the back of your mind and it affects your reactions and instincts.

You’ve got to be prepared to do the leg work in the premier league even if things are not going for you. Trossard has been having a stinker at times this season, but what I will say for him is that the effort is always there


I'm with you on both these points. Jesus came to the club as our star striker, on commensurate wages of £265,000 per week (second highest at the club). His first dozen games were a revelation, but even in his first season he scored only 11 EPL goals and had 6 assists, with a goal per game ratio of 0.42. He was well behind Odegard and Martinelli (15 goals) and Saka (14), and joint 14th in the EPL. That is of itself a failure - at least well short of what could reasonably have been expected of him.

Since 2022/23 - well last season Jesus scored only 4 EPL goals (5 assists), with a GPG ratio of a pathetic 0.15, and he has not scored since January.

Overall, Jesus has indeed been a disaster. And you are spot on that his lack of effort/bravery/mental strength whatever is simply unacceptable for a player earning almost £14M per year.

I agree also with you re Zinchenko. Gooners seem always to need a scapegoat and Zin has been that guy for a while now. I think that the opprobrium heaped on him for being a liability is unfair. He has played only 2 fewer games than Calafiori this season, and the latter player has made at least 3 key defensive errors from my recollection - more than Zinchenko. But as he is the shiny new toy, Cala gets a pass from fans. Further, Zinchenko was never first and foremost a defender - he was essentially used as inverted LB - with a view to progressing teh ball through MF. Zin has not been a disaster by any means in terms of his performances. Where he is more suspect is in his injury record/unavailability - also the fact that after 60/70 mins he drops off in games. But unlike Jesus, his effort and application are not in doubt, for me.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Zinchenko is pretty shit tbh.

He cannot defend for toffee and his midfield contributions are few and far between.

I don't know how people cannot see it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Zinchenko is pretty shit tbh.

He cannot defend for toffee and his midfield contributions are few and far between.

I don't know how people cannot see it.

No fan of his at all, he’s been on my “to get rid of” list for some considerable time, I just think it’s equally a bit silly to single him out as the player who cost us the title last season due to an error he made in a game back at the beginning of the season. He didn’t play much that season, partly due to injury and partly because it was clear that Arteta didn’t trust him. What I will say though is that i prefer him at left back to Kiwior or Timber (Timber is a very good player, it’s just clear he’s a right back) because for all his defensive shortcomings i do think we do manage more attacking play on the left when he does.

My preference would be for him to go along with Tomiyasu and blood this Lewis Skelley lad as backup to Calafiori. And keep Kiwior as a centre back.

[Mac76]

Zinchenko is pretty shit tbh.

He cannot defend for toffee and his midfield contributions are few and far between.

I don't know how people cannot see it.

This

[Mac76]

I have to say the whole Zinchenko thing is one of the biggest examples of a post hoc fallacy I can think of…unless you’re saying he was responsible for us losing to Villa at home as well (and whilst his casual meandering certainly didn’t help, that was a game we needed to win, not just not lose and we created shit). But if you want to attribute the dropped two points in August to us not winning the title, there’s a far more explicit culprit and that’s Arteta. The guy who dicked around with the lineup so we looked second best to Fulham for two thirds of that home game.

And Jesus was missing chances, right, left and centre even before he got injured at the World Cup. Yes his work rate was good but it was Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli creating space for him. I think apart from the fact that Arteta insists on playing him centrally which doesn’t work, he’s a lazy shit. Often just won’t make runs or make himself available for passing

For me you can tell the difference between a player who has lost something as a result of injury and a player who isn’t trying. Eduardo fell into the former category, I always think if you suffer an injury shocker like that it can stay in the back of your mind and it affects your reactions and instincts.

You’ve got to be prepared to do the leg work in the premier league even if things are not going for you. Trossard has been having a stinker at times this season, but what I will say for him is that the effort is always there

Application only gets you so far, a half-trying Messi would still do better than a fully-trying Championship midfielder

As for Zin, the reason he was a fail is actually tied up with the whole inverted LB thing which you regularly call out as BSZin would be fine playing in MF for Palace but he's not Arsenal level. And he cannot defend which is a huge weakness for someone in a defensive role...

So it's both the player and the tactic whoch is a fail, Pep made a laughing stock of it in last season's game (or was it the one before?) at Citeh when he simply got them to play over our midfield and bypass Zin altogether

As for Jesus, you're forgetting he missed quite a bit of that first season and wasn't the same even when he came back

It's only this season he's seemed to lack determination and should have been sold in the summer but that takes us back to the whole we-need-a-striker argument where I think we all agree we've been left weak up front

[HCZ_Reborn]

Application indeed only gets you so far, the point being is not to suggest Jesus would be doing better if he was working harder (although he couldn’t be doing any worse) but there’s only so much patience people will have for you if your form stinks and your attitude stinks and with Jesus it’s both

Yep Jesus was injured but that season was attenuated by the World Cup, and he was fit for the first 14 games of the season prior to the World Cup. And the effort was there, the finesse not so much….we gave him a bit of leeway because he was creating panic in the box for opposition defences, but there was a running joke on here about how many chances he missed and it was hard to know sometimes whether that then led to him laying on chances for others because he was fluffing the chances himself.

Even before he got injured, he’d gone six league games without a goal

As for Zinchenko, as I keep saying I don’t think he’s good enough. He’s careless in possession, he’s slow and he’s got that infuriating tendency to wave his arms around in an unofficial leadership role where in my mind true leaders lead by example. I don’t think it’s unfair to sum him up in totality as a failed signing, but again there’s degrees….id rather him not play than play but I don’t think he’s singularly the difference between success and failure in most games.

I rate Calafiori highly so there’s no doubt in my mind he should be first choice left back and Zinchenko sold. But as I said during the summer, selling a player relies on there being takers

[Niall_Quinn]

2 points thrown down the drain. Any other analysis is an excuse. Should easily be beating dogshit like Fulham. Didn't. Suggests we are still more dogshit than caviar.

[HCZ_Reborn]

2 points thrown down the drain. Any other analysis is an excuse. Should easily be beating dogshit like Fulham. Didn't. Suggests we are still more dogshit than caviar.

Can’t really argue with that