Wolves 0-1 Arsenal Player Rating and Match Reaction

[HCZ_Reborn]

Haven’t done one of these in a while because frankly most of our results and performances have just depressed me


Raya 7 - Strong presence in goal


Timber 7 - Strong and solid as per usual, could have won a penalty for us if Oliver wasn’t the referee


Saliba 7 - Wasn’t expecting him back today, massive relief that he was…lost Sarabia in first half but settled after that


Gabriel 7 - Untroubled and helped us get forward



Lewis-Skelly 6 - Recipient of one of the harshest red cards in football history



Partey 6 - Playing at 6 the match passed him by



Rice 6 - He did work hard and play well, but I can’t award him any higher because playing him at 8 is why our build up play is so slow


Nwaneri 6 - Being asked to be the main creative output was too much for him. His future is out wide rather than in the middle


Martinelli 6 - Plenty of running but won’t gamble to get onto the end of things


Trossard 6 - Is trying to create assists for Havertz, but this was extent of his influence on the game



Havertz 6 - Don’t want to mark him down because he’s getting into the position to score but clearly lacks the composure to take the chances. He’s not a striker never has been (anymore than he is a central midfielder) but I also think he’s the lightning rod for fan abuse when he’s working his bollocks off



Subs


Calafiori 7 - Good controlled finish for the goal


Tierney 7 - Injuries aside, he’s a good player and I think he’s been harshly treated by Arteta




Same old story encapsulated in one game, not creating enough chances, fluffing the good chances we do make and being targeted by referees (to the point now where even the media getting involved….the joke is as ridiculous as that card was, it’s not the most ridiculous decision against us this season…that for me is the Rice sending off). Fortunately for us, Gomes decided to help us out by being such a thug that even Michael Oliver couldn’t ignore it.

Declan Rice, I don’t think anyone can question his work rate, how involved he gets in our play and how he tries to make things happen. But I’m sorry that for me is the problem, in such an advanced position on the pitch you need someone who has better passing range and does things half a second quicker. He’s not a central midfielder, he’s a defensive midfielder…he’s not technically proficient enough to be the former.

I don’t really get how he and Zubimendi playing together will help us going forward when it comes to breaking down teams that play the deep block.

I could say more about Havertz but what more needs to be said, we need a striker to finish off chances. 65 million is a lot for someone who at best is a squad player and not a first team player.

I could also say more about the sending off, but what’s the point? No one who doesn’t use braille to read thinks it’s anything more than a yellow. I think the club should appeal and also someone at the club needs to put an arm round the lad and say “you did nothing wrong, a defenders job sometimes is to take a card for the team to stop a break from happening. Not your fault Oliver is a cunt”

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

........

I don’t really get how he and Zubimendi playing together will help us going forward when it comes to breaking down teams that play the deep block.

......

This scares me too and is one of the reasons it is difficult for me to understand the dithering this season on addressing the basic problem of a striker and seemingly allowing the team to achieve its potential.

As far as I am concerned, there is no way next season our midfield will look stronger when it's almost guaranteed we will be losing both Partey (who on his day is unplayable) and Jorghino (bags of experience and class). IMO both players possess an array of differing skills and abilities that the other 2 DMs haven't displayed.

To think we will be replacing this loss by only adding another midfielder ( cut from the same cloth as Merino ) who will be seeking to slow our build up play down even further, is quite worrying and why I don't think next season will be a better chance of clinching the title than this one.

Currently, the whole world seems to be in agreement that we've only got one gaping hole in our team. While I kind of agree with this, I strongly believe that the imminent loss of the 2 aforementioned players is going to create a crater that is going to take Arteta years to recover from seeing as till now his system has struggled to recover from the loss of someone as unheralded as Xhaka.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Zubimendi isn’t really like Merino at all, he’s far more like Rodri…I’d argue he has the potential to be better than Rodri. But you do need creative players in front of him and Rice isn’t that. Arteta doesn’t prize that, he wants to control games and I don’t think he will ever give up that philosophy. A competent striker would mean that we won’t miss so many of the chances we do create. But we are a) never going to have a player who tops the goal scoring charts or b) play consistently entertaining football.

[Mac76]

Zubimendi isn’t really like Merino at all, he’s far more like Rodri…I’d argue he has the potential to be better than Rodri. But you do need creative players in front of him and Rice isn’t that. Arteta doesn’t prize that, he wants to control games and I don’t think he will ever give up that philosophy. A competent striker would mean that we won’t miss so many of the chances we do create. But we are a) never going to have a player who tops the goal scoring charts or b) play consistently entertaining football.

You're right re Zubi, and also re Arteta and control v creativity, I think we can only ever get so far until he loosens his philosophical grip on the team

[Niall_Quinn]

Zubimendi isn’t really like Merino at all, he’s far more like Rodri…I’d argue he has the potential to be better than Rodri. But you do need creative players in front of him and Rice isn’t that. Arteta doesn’t prize that, he wants to control games and I don’t think he will ever give up that philosophy. A competent striker would mean that we won’t miss so many of the chances we do create. But we are a) never going to have a player who tops the goal scoring charts or b) play consistently entertaining football.

Yeah, it would be a great signing if we can pull it off. IF. Lots of water to flow under that bridge yet. Is it just a means to appease the fans who are waiting for some activity in January? Forgive me for being intelligently cynical about the way Arsenal does business and its attitude to the fans.

But say we do sign him. For 51mill - could that even be true? I suppose he'll cost 300k a week in wages, so the final bill we be much bigger. This means we'd have two genuine playmakers on the books. So our legendary injury dramas could at least be rendered less catastrophic. But I can see a way he would fit into a team that also contains Odegard and Nypan, but it would mean the abandonment of tippy-tappy pep-ball. Could Arteta go there? I actually think he did just this week when we went down to 10 thanks to our good friend Oliver. I don't know if that's a sign Arteta has broken free, maybe learned some lessons, or whether it was one-off desperation. Hopefully the former. I don't know but maybe Pep's struggles this season will have a massive, positive, knock-on effect for world football in general.

Of course if we bring Zubimendi and tell him, here's your tip-tap assignment, then nothing much changes.

[Niall_Quinn]

And Rice. Rice is the player who would allow the other three to play.

[Niall_Quinn]

And get rid of players like Partey and Merino FFS and do it quickly.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I could be wrong but I’m fairly sure Zubimendi is a fait accomplit at this point

[Niall_Quinn]

And then we need somebody on the end of all that to actually stick the ball in the net. Gyokeres, ideal, Vladhovic, sounds like that's dead, Iaask, not as good but good enough, Sesko - NO, NO, NO, but of we sign him in addition then no complaints. That bum at Wolves or the other cut-price shit they have been mooting this week - yeah right.

[Niall_Quinn]

I could be wrong but I’m fairly sure Zubimendi is a fait accomplit at this point

You could be wrong.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Haven’t done one of these in a while because frankly most of our results and performances have just depressed me


Raya 7 - Strong presence in goal


Timber 7 - Strong and solid as per usual, could have won a penalty for us if Oliver wasn’t the referee


Saliba 7 - Wasn’t expecting him back today, massive relief that he was…lost Sarabia in first half but settled after that


Gabriel 7 - Untroubled and helped us get forward



Lewis-Skelly 6 - Recipient of one of the harshest red cards in football history



Partey 6 - Playing at 6 the match passed him by



Rice 6 - He did work hard and play well, but I can’t award him any higher because playing him at 8 is why our build up play is so slow


Nwaneri 6 - Being asked to be the main creative output was too much for him. His future is out wide rather than in the middle


Martinelli 6 - Plenty of running but won’t gamble to get onto the end of things


Trossard 6 - Is trying to create assists for Havertz, but this was extent of his influence on the game



Havertz 6 - Don’t want to mark him down because he’s getting into the position to score but clearly lacks the composure to take the chances. He’s not a striker never has been (anymore than he is a central midfielder) but I also think he’s the lightning rod for fan abuse when he’s working his bollocks off



Subs


Calafiori 7 - Good controlled finish for the goal


Tierney 7 - Injuries aside, he’s a good player and I think he’s been harshly treated by Arteta




Same old story encapsulated in one game, not creating enough chances, fluffing the good chances we do make and being targeted by referees (to the point now where even the media getting involved….the joke is as ridiculous as that card was, it’s not the most ridiculous decision against us this season…that for me is the Rice sending off). Fortunately for us, Gomes decided to help us out by being such a thug that even Michael Oliver couldn’t ignore it.

Declan Rice, I don’t think anyone can question his work rate, how involved he gets in our play and how he tries to make things happen. But I’m sorry that for me is the problem, in such an advanced position on the pitch you need someone who has better passing range and does things half a second quicker. He’s not a central midfielder, he’s a defensive midfielder…he’s not technically proficient enough to be the former.

I don’t really get how he and Zubimendi playing together will help us going forward when it comes to breaking down teams that play the deep block.

I could say more about Havertz but what more needs to be said, we need a striker to finish off chances. 65 million is a lot for someone who at best is a squad player and not a first team player.

I could also say more about the sending off, but what’s the point? No one who doesn’t use braille to read thinks it’s anything more than a yellow. I think the club should appeal and also someone at the club needs to put an arm round the lad and say “you did nothing wrong, a defenders job sometimes is to take a card for the team to stop a break from happening. Not your fault Oliver is a cunt”

Oh please, not you as well.

This 'deep block' / 'low block' just doesn't exist as a 'thing'. It's something Arsenal fans have made up this season to deflect from the fact our own attacking build up play is too slow and completely laboured.
It's just called 'defending'.

It's also not a 'tactic' - teams just sit back & defend against us because WE make it easy for them to do so.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I find this myopia a very online phenomenon. This belief that something has to be one thing or the other, you’ve picked how I’ve used the term deep block but quoted the whole post which talks about our slow build up play (which you’ve curiously ignored)

Not every team plays a deep block against us, but most do….especially at the Emirates. And yes of course they do it effectively because of our slow build up play.

[KSE Comedy Club]

And then we need somebody on the end of all that to actually stick the ball in the net. Gyokeres, ideal, Vladhovic, sounds like that's dead, Iaask, not as good but good enough, Sesko - NO, NO, NO, but of we sign him in addition then no complaints. That bum at Wolves or the other cut-price shit they have been mooting this week - yeah right.

I agree with on this, my top choice is Gyokeres.

But for some reason Arteta wants another attacking winger type in Sesko - and so we will be in the same position as we were when everyone was fit.
No real change to our attack in that we still won't have a striker.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I find this myopia a very online phenomenon. This belief that something has to be one thing or the other, you’ve picked how I’ve used the term deep block but quoted the whole post which talks about our slow build up play (which you’ve curiously ignored)

Not every team plays a deep block against us, but most do….especially at the Emirates. And yes of course they do it effectively because of our slow build up play.

Because it's not a 'deep block' - teams just 'defend'.

That's it, plain and simple.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Because it's not a 'deep block' - teams just 'defend'.

That's it, plain and simple.

No it’s not that plain and simple, not all defending means you bring every single player back to camp out in your own box

The fact that our build up play is slow gives teams the time to get back and do this. But they still do it.


Everton, Ipswich and Newcastle all have played like this at the Emirates in the last month or so.

[Letters]

Because it's not a 'deep block' - teams just 'defend'.

That's it, plain and simple.

Are you saying that all teams just defend?
There are obviously some teams who are more attack minded and some who are more defence minded. And lower teams will generally do the latter against the top teams - because why would you be too bold in attack against them? You'd get ripped to shreds. The only thing I will say is the term "deep block" seems to be a new invention to describe what has been going on for decades.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s not a new thing at all. I’m not even criticising teams that do it. But it is above and beyond normal defending

[KSE Comedy Club]

Are you saying that all teams just defend?
There are obviously some teams who are more attack minded and some who are more defence minded. And lower teams will generally do the latter against the top teams - because why would you be too bold in attack against them? You'd get ripped to shreds. The only thing I will say is the term "deep block" seems to be a new invention to describe what has been going on for decades.

Well it used to be called 'parking the bus' and we all knew that meant 11 men behind the ball.

This season it's now deep block / low block which seems like it has been thought up like it's some awful tactic a team will use to stop us from scoring.
Instead is always a situation entirely of our own making.

I just find it really irritating - I don't know why :shrug:

[KSE Comedy Club]

It’s not a new thing at all. I’m not even criticising teams that do it. But it is above and beyond normal defending

Is it though?

So is normal defending just having your line of 4 and GK trying to stop the other team from scoring exclusively, whilst the rest of the team just sit in midfield watching and waiting?

[Mac76]

Well it used to be called 'parking the bus' and we all knew that meant 11 men behind the ball.


Correct


This season it's now deep block / low block which seems like it has been thought up like it's some awful tactic a team will use to stop us from scoring.


not just this season, it's a term which has crept in over the last few years - it's basically people tryig to make football sound more intellectual



Instead is always a situation entirely of our own making.


well then 'our own making' would partly be that we are capable of scoring lots of goals if people don't park the bus - see Crystal Palace away recently, where they went for it and it played into our hands.

but we do make it worse because our attack is so slow in transition that it allows the oppostion to get neatly into shape and then we're in that familiar horseshoe routine until Odegaard tries to put one over the top or Trossard, the most enterprising Arsenal player by some distance, tries to break through

[HCZ_Reborn]

Is it though?

So is normal defending just having your line of 4 and GK trying to stop the other team from scoring exclusively, whilst the rest of the team just sit in midfield watching and waiting?

Again what part of having almost every player in your box are you failing to understand ? I don’t even get why you’re arguing with me…I’m basically agreeing with you that our build up play is too slow. But because of this insistence of failing to understand that two things can be true…you’re trying to refute the idea that certain teams play in a way that means pretty much all of their players are in their own penalty area to make it congested.

I’ve not suggested it’s an excuse, is that what you’re afraid of?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Correct



not just this season, it's a term which has crept in over the last few years - it's basically people tryig to make football sound more intellectual



well then 'our own making' would partly be that we are capable of scoring lots of goals if people don't park the bus - see Crystal Palace away recently, where they went for it and it played into our hands.

but we do make it worse because our attack is so slow in transition that it allows the oppostion to get neatly into shape and then we're in that familiar horseshoe routine until Odegaard tries to put one over the top or Trossard, the most enterprising Arsenal player by some distance, tries to break through

Im not exactly sure how low or deep block are especially intellectual terms, it’s just a term of succinctness. You are basically sitting deep to block chances on your goal (it’s pretty much what I’d call a Ronseal term)

The problem is, when its mentioned that’s what other teams do….people shit their pants and invent in their own mind that you are implying that other sides are cheating by playing this way. Nonsense it’s a perfectly legitimate way to play, and teams will do it against us because they know it will be successful. Therefore it’s on us to counter it.

I wouldn’t mind but this was true when Wenger coached us (especially away from home when teams would sit deep, get a goal on the break and then sit deep again whilst we huffed and puffed)

No one is trying to reinvent the wheel here

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Correct



not just this season, it's a term which has crept in over the last few years - it's basically people tryig to make football sound more intellectual



well then 'our own making' would partly be that we are capable of scoring lots of goals if people don't park the bus - see Crystal Palace away recently, where they went for it and it played into our hands.

but we do make it worse because our attack is so slow in transition that it allows the oppostion to get neatly into shape and then we're in that familiar horseshoe routine until Odegaard tries to put one over the top or Trossard, the most enterprising Arsenal player by some distance, tries to break through

I think the point he's making is that we (our managers, the team and our fans) seem to complain about the "deep block" more than any other team and like everyone has agreed, its not really new or revolutionary.

I must admit, Arsenal complaining about the deep block didn't start with Arteta though (AW takes the crown there) and I don't remember the deep block being much of an issue under Emery.

The thing to note is other top teams don't seem to give this deep block thing that much of a significance, and that includes teams like Man City who also excel at slow boring build up play.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think the point he's making is that we (our managers, the team and our fans) seem to complain about the "deep block" more than any other team and like everyone has agreed, its not really new or revolutionary.

I must admit, Arsenal complaining about the deep block didn't start with Arteta though (AW takes the crown there) and I don't remember the deep block being much of an issue under Emery.

The thing to note is other top teams don't seem to give this deep block thing that much of a significance, and that includes teams like Man City who also excel at slow boring build up play.

The point being is that I’m not going to deny its existence simply because our managers have in the past blamed it for their own shortcomings. I wouldn’t mind but I only even mentioned it in reference to our own slow build up play :lol:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

The point being is that I’m not going to deny its existence simply because our managers have in the past blamed it for their own shortcomings. I wouldn’t mind but I only even mentioned it in reference to our own slow build up play :lol:

I don't think KSE is denying its existence either, he's just saying it shouldn't be a big deal since it has always existed.

But I agree that compared to all the other big teams, no team suffers with this "tactic" being employed against them more than us and that's because the world can see its effective against us.

You sit back 90 mins against City pre 2024, you get pumped a minimum of 3 goals. You do that against this current Liverpool side they'll have 20 shots at you and eventually score one. As for us, 50% of the time you are guaranteed a point and 20% out of the 50, all 3 points.

IMO why it's so effective against us compared to the others I mentioned earlier is our reluctance to pull the trigger, that looking for the perfect opening, the perfect goal. Or to be a bit more detailed, a particular "type" of goal that looks like it was put together and choreographed at the training ground. The current Citeh side has been making the same mistake and I think its just the natural evolution of a corrupted tippy tappy.

This is what I think anyway, but really if you look at our recent past, you can see exactly when this thing started becoming an issue for us and it was when AW got all enamoured with tippy tappy and tried to mimic it, with less and less emphasis on individuality and more and more on a particular pre-planned devised style.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Firstly, no he has outright refused to suggest there is any difference between it and ordinary defending. Secondly why take the two words when they have only been used in the broader context of saying our build up play is too slow to make an counter argument to an argument no one is making to begin with.

I don’t necessarily think it’s about not taking on shots, the expectation when a side is defending deep that the shot will be blocked by bodies…so you might get a fortunate deflection that wrong foots the keeper but ultimately it’s a wasted effort. Don’t get me wrong I do think often players don’t want to take responsibility for taking the shot on, but I don’t think that’s necessarily the biggest reason for our shortcomings.

It’s that because we play the full back as an extra man in midfield, we play defensive minded players in the no8 role that we seem to have almost no transition between defence and attack. You even see Odegaard do 180 turns and play the ball backwards as soon as anyone tries to close him down. You need aggressive passing and movement, what Liverpool have always been good at is to over commit defenders and defensive midfielders by sucking them in to deal with one player on the ball and then that player will pass to about three or four players who are now operating in acres of space.

To do that you need a player who is comfortable enough on the ball to deal with closing down and make passes under pressure

[Letters]

As for us, 50% of the time you are guaranteed a point and 20% out of the 50, all 3 points.

86% of statistics are made up on the spot ;)

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

86% of statistics are made up on the spot ;)
:lol:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Again what part of having almost every player in your box are you failing to understand ? I don’t even get why you’re arguing with me…I’m basically agreeing with you that our build up play is too slow. But because of this insistence of failing to understand that two things can be true…you’re trying to refute the idea that certain teams play in a way that means pretty much all of their players are in their own penalty area to make it congested.

I’ve not suggested it’s an excuse, is that what you’re afraid of?

I understand perfectly well.

But this idea that it isn't normal defending is something I find rather odd.

Do we not expect everyone to muck in and defend when the shit hits the fan?
Also based on how well we used to attack teams, do you not expect opposition to get everyone they can in the box to defend against us when we get in the final third?

[KSE Comedy Club]

I think the point he's making is that we (our managers, the team and our fans) seem to complain about the "deep block" more than any other team and like everyone has agreed, its not really new or revolutionary.

I must admit, Arsenal complaining about the deep block didn't start with Arteta though (AW takes the crown there) and I don't remember the deep block being much of an issue under Emery.

The thing to note is other top teams don't seem to give this deep block thing that much of a significance, and that includes teams like Man City who also excel at slow boring build up play.

Yes this is it in a nutshell.

I think that is where my personal irritation lies ;)

I've just heard fans saying it a lot this season, like it's this big deal, but the reality is that teams will come and defend, sometimes with 11 men in their own half, because we used to rip them to shreds if they didn't.

They have learnt from past mistakes, but we haven't learnt how to adapt back to quick counter attacking play.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The point being is that I’m not going to deny its existence simply because our managers have in the past blamed it for their own shortcomings. I wouldn’t mind but I only even mentioned it in reference to our own slow build up play :lol:

Yeh sorry, I wasn't trying to get at you or start this whole off topic debate off! :lol:

I've just heard this a lot from different fans this season 'they have come here and played the low block' and it really irritates me - I don't know why :doh:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Firstly, no he has outright refused to suggest there is any difference between it and ordinary defending. Secondly why take the two words when they have only been used in the broader context of saying our build up play is too slow to make an counter argument to an argument no one is making to begin with.

I don’t necessarily think it’s about not taking on shots, the expectation when a side is defending deep that the shot will be blocked by bodies…so you might get a fortunate deflection that wrong foots the keeper but ultimately it’s a wasted effort. Don’t get me wrong I do think often players don’t want to take responsibility for taking the shot on, but I don’t think that’s necessarily the biggest reason for our shortcomings.

It’s that because we play the full back as an extra man in midfield, we play defensive minded players in the no8 role that we seem to have almost no transition between defence and attack. You even see Odegaard do 180 turns and play the ball backwards as soon as anyone tries to close him down. You need aggressive passing and movement, what Liverpool have always been good at is to over commit defenders and defensive midfielders by sucking them in to deal with one player on the ball and then that player will pass to about three or four players who are now operating in acres of space.

To do that you need a player who is comfortable enough on the ball to deal with closing down and make passes under pressure

So what (purely out of curiosity) is ordinary defending and how is it different to defending with 11 men in the box?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I understand perfectly well.

But this idea that it isn't normal defending is something I find rather odd.

Do we not expect everyone to muck in and defend when the shit hits the fan?
Also based on how well we used to attack teams, do you not expect opposition to get everyone they can in the box to defend against us when we get in final thrid?

No I don’t think you do understand, because you wouldn’t answer like that if you did

Your response even acknowledges that having every player in the box is a particular kind of defending…and have stated that when our backs are up against the wall we’ve done it ourselves (we absolutely have of course)

Literally no one has suggested there’s anything wrong with teams doing this. And even the post you took exception to was making the point that it’s incumbent on us to deal with it.

So I’m literally at a loss as to what or who you’re arguing against

[HCZ_Reborn]

So what (purely out of curiosity) is ordinary defending and how is it different to defending with 11 men in the box?

Ordinary defending is when you have your defenders protecting the goal, your defensive midfielders tracking back and generally not being caught out of position


Deep block is when you are either playing for a draw or you are looking to hold on to what you have. If you start a game with a deep block defence it suggests you’re either happy with a draw or looking to play purely on the counter

Don’t take this the wrong way, but you’re coming across deranged if you can’t even acknowledge that somehow playing with almost all your own defenders in your penalty box stands out as being particularly defensive in your tactical mindset


And I think you’re doing it because you seem to think that acknowledging this is the same as excusing us.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Can we draw a line under this now though, accept that because of some emotional issue you’re dealing with that you don’t like the term Deep Block, because you equate it with an argument no one is actually making and that it’s your problem to deal with?

[Niall_Quinn]

As I understand it the deep block is used by teams who are markedly inferior to the opposition, or are in a markedly inferior circumstance such as being Arsenal in a match reffed by Oliver. It denies space inside the attacking third the opposition might exploit through superior tactics or simply by having better players. It's not something new, Arsenal teams of the past have shamelessly deployed it against rivals particularly in away matches and we've been lampooned for doing it. I don't think it's used to play for a draw, per se, but more to nullify the advantages of a superior opposition. So when a quality team opts for it they rightly get laughed at. But when a team from the lower leagues goes up against top league opposition it's often viewed as "heroic" to deploy such tactics. And it's understandable. It can even be exciting when one team doggedly resists another in such fashion.

[HCZ_Reborn]

As I understand it the deep block is used by teams who are markedly inferior to the opposition, or are in a markedly inferior circumstance such as being Arsenal in a match referred by Oliver. It denies space inside the attacking third the opposition might exploit through superior tactics or simply by having better players. It's not something new, Arsenal teams of the past have shamelessly deployed it against rivals particularly in away matches and we've been lampooned for doing it. I don't think it's used to play for a draw, per se, but more to nullify the advantages of a superior opposition. So when a quality team opts for it they rightly get laughed at. But when a team from the lower leagues goes up against top league opposition it's often viewed as "heroic" to deploy such tactics. And it's understandable. It can even be exciting when one team doggedly resists another in such fashion.

Yeah I think that sums it up completely accurately

[KSE Comedy Club]

Can we draw a line under this now though, accept that you don’t like the term Deep Block, because you equate it with an argument no one is actually making and that it’s your problem to deal with?

I think I have already acknowledged that a few posts back :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

I think I have already acknowledged that a few posts back :good:

Oh no we haven't...!

[KSE Comedy Club]

Ordinary defending is when you have your defenders protecting the goal, your defensive midfielders tracking back and generally not being caught out of position


Deep block is when you are either playing for a draw or you are looking to hold on to what you have. If you start a game with a deep block defence it suggests you’re either happy with a draw or looking to play purely on the counter

Don’t take this the wrong way, but you’re coming across deranged if you can’t even acknowledge that somehow playing with almost all your own defenders in your penalty box stands out as being particularly defensive in your tactical mindset


And I think you’re doing it because you seem to think that acknowledging this is the same as excusing us.

Not me, but I know some fans have been using it in that way - which is what irritates me.

[KSE Comedy Club]

As I understand it the deep block is used by teams who are markedly inferior to the opposition, or are in a markedly inferior circumstance such as being Arsenal in a match reffed by Oliver. It denies space inside the attacking third the opposition might exploit through superior tactics or simply by having better players. It's not something new, Arsenal teams of the past have shamelessly deployed it against rivals particularly in away matches and we've been lampooned for doing it. I don't think it's used to play for a draw, per se, but more to nullify the advantages of a superior opposition. So when a quality team opts for it they rightly get laughed at. But when a team from the lower leagues goes up against top league opposition it's often viewed as "heroic" to deploy such tactics. And it's understandable. It can even be exciting when one team doggedly resists another in such fashion.

So, just parking the bus then for us common folk :)

End of the day, to me, defending is defending, whether that is 4 men doing it or 11 men doing it. You can be light or heavy in the deployment of the method but it's ultimately the same thing :shrug:

[Niall_Quinn]

So, just parking the bus then for us common folk :)

Next you'll be saying false 9 is just a bunch of bullshit.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Next you'll be saying false 9 is just a bunch of bullshit.

Alongside the 'double pivot'

[Niall_Quinn]

Alongside the 'double pivot'

Obviously your game management sucks. I live for the day when we start calling tackles "turnovers"

[Niall_Quinn]

So, just parking the bus then for us common folk :)

End of the day, to me, defending is defending, whether that is 4 men doing it or 11 men doing it. You can be light or heavy in the deployment of the method but it's ultimately the same thing :shrug:

There are three types of defending, good, lucky and bad. When you set up your defensive tactics to counter your opponent and it works, that's good defending. When you blindly play to a system regardless of the opponent and it works, that's lucky defending. Everything else is bad defending. You can add labels to various tactics and various positions, that's fine and very useful for people like Jamie Redknapp when it comes to justifying his salary, but most fans will simply say, "That was SHIT defending!", or "Great defending!", or "Where's the fucking defence?" They don't scream, "OMG - what's happened to our transition?!", or, "FFS - try to get the low block right will you arseholes!"

I can get that managers might go into more detailed specifics with their players on the training pitch, I can get they may have a vocabulary that assists them at a professional level, but none of that extends to the fanbase unless they happen to have a YouFace channel and want to make money with ad clicks.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Obviously your game management sucks. I live for the day when we start calling tackles "turnovers"

Oh god please NO!

[KSE Comedy Club]

There are three types of defending, good, lucky and bad. When you set up your defensive tactics to counter your opponent and it works, that's good defending. When you blindly play to a system regardless of the opponent and it works, that's lucky defending. Everything else is bad defending. You can add labels to various tactics and various positions, that's fine and very useful for people like Jamie Redknapp when it comes to justifying his salary, but most fans will simply say, "That was SHIT defending!", or "Great defending!", or "Where's the fucking defence?" They don't scream, "OMG - what's happened to our transition?!", or, "FFS - try to get the low block right will you arseholes!"

I can get that managers might go into more detailed specifics with their players on the training pitch, I can get they may have a vocabulary that assists them at a professional level, but none of that extends to the fanbase unless they happen to have a YouFace channel and want to make money with ad clicks.

:haha: exactly!

[Mac76]

"turnovers"

Every time a commentator or 'expert analyst' says that it has me grinding my teeth

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

86% of statistics are made up on the spot ;)

Ok, so your remark actually got me thinking and before I knew it, I brought out the spreadsheets to see what the stats could actually say about our 'feelings vs facts' of facing 90 mins of 11 men pinned in their half behind the ball.

Now though I've seen NQ's reply, there are definitely no stats that can speak to the subjectivity of most of the definition, so for the sake of this discussion, I am using things that can be measured like possession, where the possession occurred (or where passes were concentrated ) and shots taken at the opposition's goal and vice versa.

Ok, so the first stat, possession is easily obtainable and says Arsenal's average in the EPL stands at 55% per match while our opponents is usually 45%. Now we are not no 1 for this as most of us could guess, Man City trumps us and they do by quite a margin at 61% for and 39% against. The surprise however is we are not even number 2 or 3, with Liverpool, Spuds and Chelsea all besting us (58.5%,58.04% and 58% respectively). So factually we are only 5th on the table when it comes to possession, which further supports the argument that other teams also regularly face opponents who are happy to relinquish control to them.

Anyway since I compiled my own spreadsheet I realised that our possession stats have probably been impacted by PGMOL's private war against us and the fact we have faced 4 red cards, which none of the other teams above us have come close to experiencing. So when I remove those games, I come up with a more favourable and realistic 58.5%, which puts us 2nd place on par with Liverpool but still not near Citeh. Also, the bottom teams for possession are Forest, Everton and Ipswich all at roughly 39-40%.

Now the rest of our averages for the season (red card games removed) say we conceded possession 41.5% of the time, take an average of 15 shots, face 8 shots, spend 22% of time defending in our third, 45% of our time engaged in midfield battles and 37% of our time in the opponents final third.

So to come up with some sort of statistical formula that supports parking the bus, I used metrics that state that not only must a team fall below the averages mentioned but it must be quite poor i.e. possession should be 35% or less, and more importantly not only must the time spent in their final third exceed the average (37%) but it must be double the amount spent in our third defending (so even in a case where we spent 50% time in their final third, if we spend more than 25% of the time defending in our third, it would not count).

So statistically, the two worst games of parking the Bus were at home against Everton and Leicester (one of the few games I've not seen this season, not even highlights). Anyway for Everton, they achieved the lowest possession against us this season at 23%, we spent 43% of the time camped in their final third (we were only in our third for 12% of the game) and faced 2 shots (lowest we've faced all season). I don't need to mention the result. As for Leceister who we beat 4-2, their possession was only slightly better at 25%, we faced 5 shots but shockingly (especially for a team that scored 2 goals) they were only in our final third 10% of the game while we were in their third 56% of the game (almost no midfield battle here) and that stands as our record this season for pinning a team down in their own box.

The only other 2 games that satisfy all the criteria are our draw with Fulham and our win 1-0 win against Ipswich.

Our recent 2-2 draw with Villa also satisfies most of the criteria ( Villa's possession 34%, 47% of our time in Villa's final third while they got in ours only 13% of the time) but Villa managed to take 8 shots, so they equalled the attacking average for shots.

Also, special mention for the Spuds and Southampton at home wins, though we spent a lot of time camped in their final thirds, they equalled the average shots and possession stats.

@Letters, I think that kind of shows out of 4 games where stats support the argument of deep blocks, we won 2 and dropped points in 2, basically 50% like I suggested earlier ;) But if you can find better measures, please go ahead (I must admit I've found putting together the spreadsheet interesting)

As for the 2 games we've lost this season, the refs helped Bournemouth out with a red (though we'd probably still have only drawn) and though Newcastle also played pretty deep against us (36% possession) we didn't reach the milestone of spending twice as much time in their third and we also faced 9 shots. So none of our losses for now can be attributed to deep blocks using this formula anyway.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Every time a commentator or 'expert analyst' says that it has me grinding my teeth

If I was watching the six nations I’d be fine with it

[Letters]

I brought out the spreadsheets to see what the stats could actually say about our 'feelings vs facts' of facing 90 mins of 11 men pinned in their half behind the ball.
I mean, firstly: you :bow:
This is excellent work.
I'm not super convinced that 4 games is statistically that significant. But I don't think it's controversial to say we struggle against sides who come and sit deep/park the bus/deploy a deep block/call it what you will.

I don't blame teams for doing it - Spurs are much mocked for being too gung-ho. "It's just who we are, mate" has become a meme. The Spursiest example surely being when they were down to 9 men against Chelsea and were still trying to attack. Ridiculous game management. For all our wobbling this season we are one of the best sides in the PL and of course sides outside the top 6 are going to come to The Emirates and try not to lose more than they're going to try to win. Twas ever thus, I remember in one of the title run ins back in the day we had some frustrating games where we struggled to get the breakthrough. Back then we invariably did in the end though, we were more potent up front. Now...well, we all know about our issues with a striker, and Saka being out is obviously affecting us.
It is frustrating because we have some quick players, if we just broke we pace more we'd surely be more effective.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I mean, firstly: you :bow:
This is excellent work.
I'm not super convinced that 4 games is statistically that significant. But I don't think it's controversial to say we struggle against sides who come and sit deep/park the bus/deploy a deep block/call it what you will.


One of the reasons I think it was only 4 games that could satisfy the formula is that we tend to score the 1st goal...so if one assumes that teams start off against us with the "low block" and we do end up scoring the first goal, then just like what happened against Wolves , we just concede possession to them and allow them to come out and see if they can score. The thing is we use to do this better in the past seasons by letting them come out and taking advantage of that to add another goal or 2.

But this season feels different, like once we're ahead, we don't care to push on and score another. Though I must say a quick gaze at the stats doesn't support this argument as we've only got three 1-0 wins and red cards in games like Bournemouth and Brighton have you scratching your head wondering what could have been.

[HCZ_Reborn]

One of the reasons I think it was only 4 games that could satisfy the formula is that we tend to score the 1st goal...so if one assumes that teams start off against us with the "low block" and we do end up scoring the first goal, then just like what happened against Wolves , we just concede possession to them and allow them to come out and see if they can score. The thing is we use to do this better in the past seasons by letting them come out and taking advantage of that to add another goal or 2.

But this season feels different, like once we're ahead, we don't care to push on and score another. Though I must say a quick gaze at the stats doesn't support this argument as we've only got three 1-0 wins and red cards in games like Bournemouth and Brighton have you scratching your head wondering what could have been.

Yep I was pretty much saying the same thing to my mate earlier. I remember us far more killing the game off on the counter attack last season. I don’t know if it’s tactical or if it’s a lack of confidence.


I think looking at it, away from home we’ve had two wins by a 1 goal margin, 2 wins by a 2 goal margin, and 2 wins by a three goal or larger margin.

But if you look at games like Brighton and Chelsea, Brighton especially we were punished because we didn’t try and extend our lead (we only brought on Odegaard and Martinelli after the non penalty penalty).

I feel like games against Ipswich and Spurs at home there was a real nervousness. I think apart from slow build up play, we’ve missed a lot of chances and that must play into players minds.

[Mac76]

btw I've heard that at HT Arteta told the team to go out and try to win the game despite having ten men

shame he didn't do the same v Brighton or Bournemouth, our negativity in those games potentially cost us important points IMO

[HCZ_Reborn]

btw I've heard that at HT Arteta told the team to go out and try to win the game despite having ten men

shame he didn't do the same v Brighton or Bournemouth, our negativity in those games potentially cost us important points IMO

Because Brighton and Bournemouth are better teams?.

[Niall_Quinn]

Because Brighton and Bournemouth are better teams?.

Nah, we're at least as good as Bournemouth.

[Mac76]

Because Brighton and Bournemouth are better teams?.

Brighton weren't playing that well and Bournemouth weren't either, they've only come alive in the last half-dozen games or so

and with players like Hwang and Cunha Wolves are perfectly capable of scroing against a side which is trying to win a game

[HCZ_Reborn]

Brighton weren't playing that well and Bournemouth weren't either, they've only come alive in the last half-dozen games or so

and with players like Hwang and Cunha Wolves are perfectly capable of scroing against a side which is trying to win a game

And as you point out these games were earlier in the season where we were in a position where a draw wasn’t as damaging, and a defeat would affect morale.

[Mac76]

And as you point out these games were earlier in the season where we were in a position where a draw wasn’t as damaging, and a defeat would affect morale.

Well I was saying at the time that if (as we thought then) you're up against a robotic Man City, draws need to be turned into wins at every opportunity, even the first game of the season. For me it was another sign for me of Arteta's cautious nature, especially at home. Liverpool would have looked to win that game, early in the season or not - that's how you win a title

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well I was saying at the time that if (as we thought then) you're up against a robotic Man City, draws need to be turned into wins at every opportunity, even the first game of the season. For me it was another sign for me of Arteta's cautious nature, especially at home. Liverpool would have looked to win that game, early in the season or not - that's how you win a title

And I respectfully disagree considering the attacking options we had and given how susceptible we are to the counter attack when we overcommit. I think against Brighton it would have guaranteed defeat with the pace they had

[McNamara That Ghost...]

They've edited it now but I saw Andy Dunn's Mirror article said Lewis-Skelly is the real villain in all this.

What the fuck?

[Niall_Quinn]

They've edited it now but I saw Andy Dunn's Mirror article said Lewis-Skelly is the real villain in all this.

What the fuck?

Yeah I saw that.

The solution to the incompetent VAR team is to make the offence that was never a red into an offence that is a red.

For the good of the game of course.

They really are my fucking heroes.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is by no means limited to PGMOL btw. This is the way the world works today. Those that have will lie straight to the face of those they took it from.

[Niall_Quinn]

Also there are unverified but true rumours going around that Andy Dunn is one of the biggest cunts to ever infect sports "journalism". I can't verify if these true claims are true, you'll have to decide for yourself. How long has he been on the go now, shovelling his shit into the mix? Him and Oliver Holt and is that other weasel staill at it, you know, the Daily Mail geezer who hated every blade of grass Arenal stepped on? What was his name? You know who I mean.

[Niall_Quinn]

Jeff Powell. Him.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Yeah I saw that.

The solution to the incompetent VAR team is to make the offence that was never a red into an offence that is a red.

For the good of the game of course.

They really are my fucking heroes.

It's absolutely stupid.

The villain for committing a yellow card offence.

Clearly he is to blame for a supposed law he wants to be brought in that, MLS, the nefarious mastermind is pulling the strings preventing from happening.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Also there are unverified but true rumours going around that Andy Dunn is one of the biggest cunts to ever infect sports "journalism". I can't verify if these true claims are true, you'll have to decide for yourself. How long has he been on the go now, shovelling his shit into the mix? Him and Oliver Holt and is that other weasel staill at it, you know, the Daily Mail geezer who hated every blade of grass Arenal stepped on? What was his name? You know who I mean.

I'm guessing Martin Samuel from your description.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's absolutely stupid.

The villain for committing a yellow card offence.

Clearly he is to blame for a supposed law he wants to be brought in that, MLS, the nefarious mastermind is pulling the strings preventing from happening.

Whatever distracts from that VAR team. Can't imagine what they'll dig up next. But in the end somebody needs to keep pushing on this so the focus eventually ends up where it belongs, on Darren England and his crew. And when can we have the audio btw? Wouldn't that help clear all this up?

"Ollie, Ollie, what do you want us to do?"

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm guessing Martin Samuel from your description.

Him too. And the way he used to speak on Soccer Saturday, or whatever that press show was on Saturday mornings (which I used to watch like I was going to church - hangs his head), that horrible, soft, spittle enhanced drone as he delivered his latest Arsenal hit piece.

God, they were all awful and still are.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Sunday Supplement.

Bunch of shits. Neil Ashton the smug little fucker too.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sunday Supplement.

Bunch of shits. Neil Ashton the smug little fucker too.

Oh, but those were the days, right? Lazy Saturday morning (Sunday Supplement made me edit this - probably not on Saturday), tea and toast, Sunday Supplement, Sky still there, robbing you blind, but Andy Gray and the other bloke who would really love it if we remembered his name, slapping women who wanted a promotion on the arse, and Arsenal just needing a draw to go above Utd, so no chance there.

It was kind of fun hating Martin Samuel, it was a cartoon villain type of hate. Not like hate for Graham Poll - that was real and vivid and visceral.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sunday Supplement.

Bunch of shits. Neil Ashton the smug little fucker too.

Didn't he have a fat brother he would call on for back-up?

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah, the Newcastle ITK. "Here's the inside scoop from Newcastle...", and everyone would go and make tea and wait for the next bit.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh that's Neil and Shaun Custis.

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh that's Neil and Shaun Custis.

He's why I hated going to Newcastle home games. Pies would all be gone by the time I got there.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That does explain a lot. Think he is still at it even now.

[Niall_Quinn]

Can't help loving football, even though I hate it.