Arsenal 0-1 West Ham Match Reaction

[HCZ_Reborn]

As I said in the match thread I’m not really interested in holding the players accountable for this result, end of the day…we are set up to play in a way that leaves space behind us. I think this is a foolish thing to do when you are missing so many goalscorers. So with that in mind, I’m not going to do a player rating because I think the players have been set up to fail, by a management and ownership structure so risk adverse that ironically it’s taken a Hail Mary pass of a gamble by leaving us without a single striker and with our second choice on both wings.

Was speaking to an Arsenal supporting mate and I said to him before the Leicester game that we would at most get 4 points from the next three games. He said this was nonsense, but he couldn’t answer me where the goals were coming from. We didn’t lose today because of shambolic defending, we lost 1-0 not 3-2. Could we have done better for Bowen’s goal? Yeah definitely but apart from absolutely worldies you can do better for every goal you concede.

If we play like we did today, Forest is a guaranteed defeat. And by that I mean not that we played poorly (although we did) but the way we set up. Forests are the masters of the counter attack, and as Newcastle have shown to beat us you just need to stick 11 behind the ball and break competently. This was true before we lost all our attacking players

We need to play like a team with no striker, and an attacking midfielder who is clearly not fit…and that is conservatively. The title is over, we need to make our peace with that. With a fully fit side could we have caught Liverpool? Yes I think we could have. But we don’t so we will never know

[Letters]

Focusing on the Champions League :bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

PSV will be fist bumping and congratulating themselves on their CL semi-final place if they watched this game.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Was speaking to an Arsenal supporting mate and I said to him before the Leicester game that we would at most get 4 points from the next three games. He said this was nonsense, but he couldn’t answer me where the goals were coming from. We didn’t lose today because of shambolic defending, we lost 1-0 not 3-2. Could we have done better for Bowen’s goal? Yeah definitely but apart from absolutely worldies you can do better for every goal you concede.


I disagree with the emboldened, though we probably had no chance of winning with the way we played and setup today. However there is no doubt that we lost today's game due to poor defending as we had 3 defenders in the box marking space rather than Bowen, who was having his 3rd opportunity to score a pretty basic goal.

It was foreseeable and definitely avoidable and IMO pretty embarrassing, from a team (West Ham) that has been truly poor in scoring early goals, as the stats show.

However, I have said a few times here that Arteta's strength is his system, and now that his system has gone to the dogs with the lack of a passable frontman, its affecting the whole team in many ways as everyone seems to be approaching the game differently and overthinking. No one played with instinct today and cowards passed the buck at every opportunity.

As for the CL, if Arteta can't find a passable frontman to make his system work, PSV will put us out of our misery probably as early as the first leg.

Again, this was all avoidable and I blame only one person for repeatedly tempting the gods despite all the gracious warnings they gave him till January. That is a fact, no matter how people try to revise it and blame others.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The thing is sometimes you concede even when you defend well. The problem isn’t the 1 we let in, it’s the 3 or 4 that we couldn’t score the other end.

As for failure to recruit attacking players that’s a collective failure from manager to scouting to the lawyers to the owners. Injuries ? Well I think that’s again a combination of over coaching and too many games (saw an article the other day about an exponential increase in the amount of hamstring injuries)

Injuries and recruitment failure are the two factors in play today. Nothing really else is relevant. Odegaard probably been carrying an injury for months, Nwaneri our only creative outlet.

There’s something to be said for sure for Arteta putting all his eggs in one basket in terms of tactics but ultimately you can’t polish a turd and the main issue at play was that we have no goalscorers currently

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/videos/ckgzvj97vl2o

Lego haired cunt :lol:

Asked by the Irish woman whether having no attacking options meant that we had only two shots on target

“I don’t want to put it down to that”


Really? Twenty shots on goal and only two on target and you don’t want to put it down to you breaking the only attacking players we have :lol:


Silly, silly man

[Mac76]

TLDR, we weren't great, but what do you expect with multiple injuries, an under-resourced attack and referees who are determined to stop us from having a hope of winning the league

There were fans who left when MLS was sent off and tbh I nearly did the same, why should paying fans endorse this fucking bullshit?

[HCZ_Reborn]

TLDR, we weren't great, but what do you expect with multiple injuries, an under-resourced attack and referees who are determined to stop us from having a hope of winning the league

There were fans who left when MLS was sent off and tbh I nearly did the same, why should paying fans endorse this fucking bullshit?

I dunno. I think that’s probably the one red this season I don’t have too much issue with. Yeah it was a long way from goal but Raya being massively off his line, meant that Kudus had near enough an empty net.

That and frankly I think it had zero bearing on the outcome of the game

[Mac76]

the Irish woman

Silly, silly man

[Niall_Quinn]

I dunno. I think that’s probably the one red this season I don’t have too much issue with. Yeah it was a long way from goal but Raya being massively off his line, meant that Kudus had near enough an empty net.

That and frankly I think it had zero bearing on the outcome of the game

The red was incorrect and VAR should have overruled it. MLS was fouled first, that's how the "goal scoring opportunity" was created in the first place. How VAR didn't pick that up is a mystery. After that it was a clear foul and that's the only thing VAR examined, evidently. Unless they saw the foul on MLS and simply overlooked it because it's Arsenal and MLS - irresistible I would suspect. It ay not have had an impact on the score, but MLS should have been playing from the KO anyway which certainly would have helped prevent that ridiculous goal we conceded.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Arteta's undoing will be his hubris. He'll never be a great coach with this sort of behaviour and clearly he won't be remembered for plenty silverware either.

I still think we need to give him an ultimatum, its 5 years now and all we have is one unexpected FA cup triumph. He seems to be one of those kind of people that you need constantly put pressure on to get results that you want from them.

Its been tiny margins with him for too long, we can't allow this to continue unabated with the kind of talent we are lucky to have right now.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

A big, big summer of sitting on our hands awaits.

As for the game, didn't see it because it's a 3pm game but from what Merse was saying we started slowly.

We don't have the individual quality to try and play such an intricate way so I don't really get why we persist.

It's scrotefests or bust right now.

[HCZ_Reborn]

A big, big summer of sitting on our hands awaits.

As for the game, didn't see it because it's a 3pm game but from what Merse was saying we started slowly.

We don't have the individual quality to try and play such an intricate way so I don't really get why we persist.

It's scrotefests or bust right now.

Yep 100% agree unfortunately

[Niall_Quinn]

Arteta's undoing will be his hubris. He'll never be a great coach with this sort of behaviour and clearly he won't be remembered for plenty silverware either.

I still think we need to give him an ultimatum, its 5 years now and all we have is one unexpected FA cup triumph. He seems to be one of those kind of people that you need constantly put pressure on to get results that you want from them.

Its been tiny margins with him for too long, we can't allow this to continue unabated with the kind of talent we are lucky to have right now.

Clubs revenues before TV went from 400+ to 600+ mill. I think the board are sitting more than happy right now. Doubt any of them would know the score today if you asked them. That's not what they are interested in.

[Niall_Quinn]

A big, big summer of sitting on our hands awaits.

As for the game, didn't see it because it's a 3pm game but from what Merse was saying we started slowly.

We don't have the individual quality to try and play such an intricate way so I don't really get why we persist.

It's scrotefests or bust right now.

You missed a ridiculous game. Raya played every position on the pitch, even striker by the end. Would have been more useful if he stayed in goal, but it was electrifying to watch - like sticking a live wire up your arsehole, electrifying. Bonkers and ever if we were in the title race I;d have every confidence this fucking around at the back would cost us when it mattered most.

Not sure if our players get fined for taking shots, but none of them were taking any chances.

[Chippy]

Arteta's undoing will be his hubris. He'll never be a great coach with this sort of behaviour and clearly he won't be remembered for plenty silverware either.

I still think we need to give him an ultimatum, its 5 years now and all we have is one unexpected FA cup triumph. He seems to be one of those kind of people that you need constantly put pressure on to get results that you want from them.

Its been tiny margins with him for too long, we can't allow this to continue unabated with the kind of talent we are lucky to have right now.

Meh to all this shit.
We are a rubbish team punching above our weight. Did anyone actually think we would catch Liverpool? Arteta out.

[Niall_Quinn]

Meh to all this shit.
We are a rubbish team punching above our weight. Did anyone actually think we would catch Liverpool? Arteta out.

We're not rubbish, we're the best team in the league when we can field a team, deploy decent tactics and get a fair shake with the ref. And that happens almost never, so here we are. Second best in the league, rightfully so. and it's a loooooooooooooooooow bar this year.

Injuries we maybe could do something about, maybe not. But injuries happen. Tactics, that's another matter. Our Chinese water torture doesn't work on every opponent so we're inconsistent and that has cost us. The refs are just cunts. They cost us an 8 point spread vs Liverpool, but even then, Liverpool will soon be more than 8 points clear and opening that gap all the way to the end I would think.

After getting so close last year and forcing city to be perfect, even with the injuries and refs, it's a big step backwards this season.

[Letters]

I continue to believe we should have had a punt on Rashford.
Two assists today apparently.
It couldn't be any bloody worse.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I continue to believe we should have had a punt on Rashford.
Two assists today apparently.
It couldn't be any bloody worse.

To get an assist you usually need someone to stick it in the net…just saying

[Letters]

To get an assist you usually need someone to stick it in the net…just saying

Well, there is that. But he'd have added something up front. We've got nothing.

[Marc Overmars]

An already poor season that’s reached its nadir with this defeat I’d say.

With no options up front I don’t know how we can expect to compete. This season has been a huge waste of time.

[Chippy]

An already poor season that’s reached its nadir with this defeat I’d say.

With no options up front I don’t know how we can expect to compete. This season has been a huge waste of time.
Like every other season. And probably the next one after this.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I continue to believe we should have had a punt on Rashford.
Two assists today apparently.
It couldn't be any bloody worse.

We would needed to have sent Sterling back to Chelsea, or Neto to Bournemouth as we've already used up our domestic loans.

Asensio though, is a bit different.

[Letters]

We would needed to have sent Sterling back to Chelsea, or Neto to Bournemouth as we've already used up our domestic loans.

Asensio though, is a bit different.

Sterling please :lol:
But fair enough, I didn’t know that

[Mac76]

PSV will be fist bumping and congratulating themselves on their CL semi-final place if they watched this game.

I don't think the CL will be taking up our time for much longer

But if we want to be in it next year we need to do much better than we did yesterday

I agree with all the Arteta criticism here, this is on him

[HCZ_Reborn]

In terms of the difference between a defeat and a draw it’s on him. But we do need to accept (whoever we blame for that being the case) that we simply do not have the capacity to score goals, at most with what we have available we can average a goal a game (which is what we have done).
I wasn’t expecting anything more than a draw yesterday, it’s always nice to hope that we’d get an early goal draw West Ham out and score a few more. But I knew when they scored it was game over.
We don’t have the type of player who can take a game by the scruff of the neck with individual brilliance, we can bemoan Arteta for discouraging individuality but we are where we are.
I said the other week (before the Leicester game) that we had to modify our expectations significantly and not so much on here but if you look at the reactions of the Twitter imbeciles, they have reacted like yesterday was a massive shock and not something that’s a reflection of where we are.

[Mac76]

we do need to accept (whoever we blame for that being the case) that we simply do not have the capacity to score goals,

Which is Arteta's fault because of his neglecting the attack in the last two windows, plus selling/loaning a whole bunch of attackers

[Mac76]

Sterling please :lol:
But fair enough, I didn’t know that

Still a valid point though, both Neto and Sterling were panic signings, if you throw into the mix Neto being cup-tied they were strategically a disaster

[HCZ_Reborn]

Which is Arteta's fault because of his neglecting the attack in the last two windows, plus selling/loaning a whole bunch of attackers

Which was covered with the parenthesis (whoever we blame for that being the case). My opinion on that is that it’s not cut and dry, and whilst Arteta takes much if not most of the blame, I don’t think he’s singularly responsible at the exclusion of anyone else.
When I’ve spoken about sacking Arteta, I’ve criticised those who own the club and those who are there on a day to day basis for giving one person too much authority. He should have for instance never been allowed to change his job role from head coach to manager.

But ultimately the point is (and this isn’t me disagreeing with you here) is that a lot of people have been critical of the tactical set up yesterday. I think talk of tactics is largely rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic

[Mac76]

Which was covered with the parenthesis (whoever we blame for that being the case). My opinion on that is that it’s not cut and dry, and whilst Arteta takes much if not most of the blame, I don’t think he’s singularly responsible at the exclusion of anyone else.
When I’ve spoken about sacking Arteta, I’ve criticised those who own the club and those who are there on a day to day basis for giving one person too much authority. He should have for instance never been allowed to change his job role from head coach to manager.

But ultimately the point is (and this isn’t me disagreeing with you here) is that a lot of people have been critical of the tactical set up yesterday. I think talk of tactics is largely rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic

Yes, sure all agreed, including that last point

[IBK]

I generally leave it for a while to comment on a game, and try to be as measured as I can when I do.

But as stated above, this was a nadir this season that has exposed issues with this team and the management that bode very badly for Arsenal going forwards.

Which other team do we most resemble? Man City. It provides a little perspective when seeing us through this prism. Football is changing before our eyes. It no longer seems that rigid, system based football is the path to success. I've been struck recently watching other teams play by how possession football has become outdated. We play most of the time at walking pace. Patiently waiting to try to shift a defender out of position to try to create a chance that requires absolute precision and finishing. If teams do not come to try to attack us, we have struggled for 2 years to break down low/mid blocks. But teams have worked this out. There is much more disclipline in defending, a focus on overloading our players coming in from wide positions, and most important of all our opponents are primed for the inevitable moment when we lose possession with our players up the pitch. It's all about quick transitions and exploiting these...and having the rapid, potent attack to do so. Possession is meaningless both in attack and defence...as we have seen with increasing frequency.

It is extremely worrying to me that Arteta has not reacted to this development - either with his approch to matches or recruitment. At a moment when it's all about attacking from transitions and creative MFs and forwards who can explint this, we have neglected these key positions. Where reaction, speed of thought and spontaneity in moments is winning games we are dependent on a seemingly inflexible system. We have had injuries, yes. But since Odegard's return we have been more or less full strength in MF and defence - the areas that Arteta has focussed on with his recruitment. Where has his defensive mindedness got us? For a while now we have been vulnerable to almost every rare counter-attack mounted by inferior (on paper) opposition. Our much vaunted defence is looking ordinary while our attack is almost non-existent.

More worrying is that Sesko and Zubimendi are not targets who particularly move the needle in the changed tactical landscape that is emerging.

Arteta is held out a a master tactician. A master tactician should not be undone like we were by West Ham on the weekend, or frustrated by Leicester until a Hail Mary from Merino after 81 minutes against Leicester. The subs on Saturday were embarassing.

To the game itself. Our players looked like did not believe that they would win that game, and certainly played like the league is already gone. There was no drive, no desire, no bravery, no craft. This sobriquet was harsh last seaon and the season before, but we are bottlers this season. I don't care about the injuries to Saka; Martinelli and Havertz, or at least this does not explain the limp performances we have seen since Dubai. It's like the fight and self belief have drained away since falling at the final hurdle last season. Winning players step up when circumstances are against them. Our players almost to a man have shrunk and handed the title to Liverpool on a platter.

I've largely kept the faith in our manager this far. What I am seeing now sees me starting to agree that we won't win anything under him.

[Mac76]

To talk about bottling it is unfair IMO, they've probably just been run down by all the injuries, sendings off etc plus Liverpool's ability to get enough points to stay well ahead

I also think there's a general naivety about a young manager and (in general) young squad, Odegaard annoyed me a lot on Saturday, too far over to the right and often trying to be too clever

I agree Arteta's tactics are our main failing, I think he should be moved on but he won't be, that's why I keep saying we need more ruthlessness a la Abramovic's Chelsea, yes there was a LOT wrong with that regime but they knew what they (and the fans) wanted and second places (even first places sometimes) weren't good enough

And that's not saying the owners are complacent, I just don't think they know enough to realise Arteta's failings and there's no-one at the club to tell them

I think Edu's departure was highly significant, I'm now really concerned some players, e.g
Saliba, will move on as they lose the belief that we can win anything

[Mac76]

Oh and while I hate the media pileon with Arsenal, I do think we're embarrassing sometimes with our kiddie 'ultras', cheesy anthems, dogs etc, I feel like this somehow comes back to Arteta's naivety, it's good he's re-connected with the fans but we don't need all this crap

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think we are honestly over complicating things in a way that we don’t need to.

I think there are parallels with Man City for sure, in that you can’t remove key players from a team and expect anything positive from it.

As for our vulnerability to counter attacks, it really is as simple as Arteta’s insistence on playing Partey at 6. It doesn’t work and it leaves our centre backs exposed.


There’s no point discussing a system change that will allow us to become more efficient going forward, because we simply don’t have the players to facilitate this. Even if (as we should do) we swap Rice and Partey around it’s not going to exponentially speed things up. The reason as I kept trying to explain to NQ the last couple of days we become slow and ponderous in the opponents half is that we lack the ability and confidence to dribble past them or execute a swift pass and move style. I suspect strongly that Odegaard is not fit, his constant decision to play more conservatively I suspect is to avoid further injury.

The one thing I noticed is that we were trying to utilise Merino as a typical centre forward by sending crosses into the box, but West Ham are good at defending crosses. We didn’t have an alternative strategy, and the only player with electric pace was Nwaneri who was marked out of the game and eventually went off with a knock (hopefully just a precaution).


In terms of recruitment this summer I think as well as a striker and a winger we clearly do need another ball playing midfielder. The alternative this season is to move Odegaard to 8 (assuming he’s fit enough to even play which I highly doubt) move Saka to 10 (when he’s back) and Nwaneri to the wing.

Playing Rice and Partey against West Ham at home is unnecessary (or at least it would be without the injury pile up we have)

But as for Saturday, ultimately we could have played more conservatively and come away with a point or a scrappy win, but really the result simply reflects only one thing…the paucity of choice available to us currently

[Letters]

To talk about bottling it is unfair IMO
Yeah, it's just become a lazy stereotype about us.
We didn't bottle it last season - ok, we lost vs Villa but we literally won every other sodding game. How is one slip in what, 18 games bottling it?
We didn't this season either. There was nothing to bottle - we have never been ahead in this race and have been plagued by injuries which have given us no chance of taking advantage of Liverpool's slips and putting some real pressure on.
That said, we should have had enough to beat West Ham. We're just running out of steam.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That said, we should have had enough to beat West Ham. We're just running out of steam.

This is where I seem to be at odds with most of the people on here. Because I don’t think that’s the case. Well not so much the running out of steam bit…I just don’t think it’s especially relevant

When you have no strikers, your first choice wingers are also unavailable…your chief play maker is clearly unfit and you are relying on a 17 year old to make it happen for you. I don’t think there’s a question of “should” in terms of having enough to beat anyone.

I was disappointed by the result Saturday, in that I was hoping against hope that somehow we could make something happen from nothing. I’m not being uncharitable to us either, I don’t think there is any team in the league in the situation we are in who can be expected to turn up and win games…with the possible exception of teams that have pretty much resigned themselves to being relegated

[Mac76]

There’s no point discussing a system change that will allow us to become more efficient going forward, because we simply don’t have the players to facilitate this.

I only half agree, as you say elsewhere in that post Nwaneri has pace and Trossard's also capable of a breakaway, the odd occasion in recent games someone's played a searching ball forward it's often led to a good chance or a goal

And in any case it's the way we always play even with Martinelli, Saka (who admittedly I'm not sure is as good on the break tbh but then we never get the chance to see it really) and Havertz

There's a lack of willingness to try anything risky and i think it's the stranglehold Arteta has placed on players

[HCZ_Reborn]

I only half agree, as you say elsewhere in that post Nwaneri has pace and Trossard's also capable of a breakaway, the odd occasion in recent games someone's played a searching ball forward it's often led to a good chance or a goal

And in any case it's the way we always play even with Martinelli, Saka (who admittedly I'm not sure is as good on the break tbh but then we never get the chance to see it really) and Havertz

There's a lack of willingness to try anything risky and i think it's the stranglehold Arteta has placed on players

A breakaway is dependent on opposition teams committing players forward, that is only going to happen if teams find themselves a goal down.

If your point is we don’t employ the counter enough even when we are in a position to do so, then yeah definitely agree with that.

But against most teams especially at the Emirates it’s kind of a moot point

[IBK]

I do think we have bottled it. Maybe not by failing to win the league, but certainly when it has come to opportunities to at least put pressure on Liverpool. The manager as good as said so much about Saturday's game, and we did not play like title winners against the likes of Bournemouth; Fulham; Everton; Brighton; Newcastle (not to mention our cup exits). We have been profligate when it comes to scoring from clear chances throughout, and have had more defensive lapses and mistakes than I can remember for a long time. I am not saying that we have a God given right to win every game, but injuries or not our players have not stepped up when needed too many times. When Odegard was hiding on Saturday, when we played with no intent or drive and simply looked limp; when once again we were at sixes and sevens for their goal it's difficult not to reach the conclusion that we wilted when it counted. And this is by no means the first time we have been found wanting when Liverpool have dropped points. While admittedly this has not been the case throughout, too many times I have not seen a team with the fight needed to sustain a title challenge. Objectively, a review of our season won't focus on injuries first and foremost. It will show a team of players who, while they may have faced insurmountable odds in winning the league with key injuries and lack of player investment, failed to reach their potential.

And BTW I specifically said that we did not bottle it last season.

[Letters]

When you have no strikers, your first choice wingers are also unavailable…your chief play maker is clearly unfit and you are relying on a 17 year old to make it happen for you. I don’t think there’s a question of “should” in terms of having enough to beat anyone.
I just feel there's goals in this side. Admittedly that opinion is starting to fly in the face of evidence, but Nwaneri looks likely, Odegaard can score, Rice chips in here and there.
I basically agree with you though and it's why I think you're being a bit harsh on Arteta. Yes, we are light on squad depth and yes we needed a striker but I'm not sure Arteta is responsible for transfer dealings. And we're still above everyone but Liverpool - they've been lucky with injuries and have had Salah on absolute fire all season.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I just feel there's goals in this side. Admittedly that opinion is starting to fly in the face of evidence, but Nwaneri looks likely, Odegaard can score, Rice chips in here and there.
I basically agree with you though and it's why I think you're being a bit harsh on Arteta. Yes, we are light on squad depth and yes we needed a striker but I'm not sure Arteta is responsible for transfer dealings. And we're still above everyone but Liverpool - they've been lucky with injuries and have had Salah on absolute fire all season.

Odegaard has scored twice in the league this season (once from the spot) and Rice has scored only the once (which is consummate with his time at West Ham where he would usually only score one league goal a season for them)


Trossard hasn’t been scoring frequently (4 league goals this season, apart from anything he’s not wanting to play for us beyond this season) and expecting goals from Nwaneri on a consistent basis is downright unfair on the lad at 17.

I was scathing of Arteta because I think if this side was fully fit it should have enough to be ahead of Liverpool even with Salah in god mode. How responsible is he for the fact that we haven’t been able to keep what players we have consistently fit? He’s not fully responsible but he has some responsibility.

I’m of the opinion that a draw is better than nothing so I can bemoan Arteta for us playing too expansively and getting caught cold for their goal, I think that is naive when we simply don’t have the goals in the team to come from behind. But also I’m aware that playing more conservatively wouldn’t have guaranteed us a clean sheet which is what I think we will need to guarantee any points on the board from now until May.


I said that I felt with the injuries we had our goal average would go from 2 a game to 1 a game and so far that’s proved to be the case.

[Marc Overmars]

2 years ago we bottled it and last year we should consider ourselves unlucky to have not won it.

This year though, we just haven’t been good enough. Something hasn’t felt right all season, we’ve been bumbling along with no real anticipation or sense that something could happen for us. No peaks or troughs, a bit like those years with Wenger where top 4 was probably assured but we weren’t going to do anything else.

Even with a fit attack we were flattering to deceive and failed to chip away at the gap to Liverpool. It is horrible luck that we have an entire front line missing but we’ve needed to strengthen in this area for at least 2 years. Arteta and the club gambled and it’s backfired big time.

Even if we got past PSV we will almost certainly be knocked out by one of the Madrid teams in the quarters so it’s not even like the CL can be considered a possibility. Winning any game right now should be considered an achievement with the current options available to us.

I cannot wait for this season to end because it’s been the least enjoyable since 20/21.

Arteta won’t be sacked for now but I think it’s certain that if the club do not pour all its resources into the attack this summer then he will be a dead man walking.

[Letters]

One thing I must admit I'd forgotten is how close Liverpool were last year - after 30 games they were 2 points ahead of us.
After 33 games they were 3 points behind us and they had a game in hand.
That's the one they lost against Everton and then they drew with West Ham, effectively removing themselves from the race.

So maybe this title isn't as unexpected as it should have been. I was pooh-poohing their chances and didn't feel they had the legs for the long haul. Had they had similar injuries as us, or had Salah not been in god mode then I'd probably have been right. But everything has fallen in to place for them with City falling off a hilarious cliff and us labouring all season I guess it wasn't hard for them to canter away from us, especially with the injuries which have hobbled us.

[HCZ_Reborn]

One thing I must admit I'd forgotten is how close Liverpool were last year - after 30 games they were 2 points ahead of us.
After 33 games they were 3 points behind us and they had a game in hand.
That's the one they lost against Everton and then they drew with West Ham, effectively removing themselves from the race.

So maybe this title isn't as unexpected as it should have been. I was pooh-poohing their chances and didn't feel they had the legs for the long haul. Had they had similar injuries as us, or had Salah not been in god mode then I'd probably have been right. But everything has fallen in to place for them with City falling off a hilarious cliff and us labouring all season I guess it wasn't hard for them to canter away from us, especially with the injuries which have hobbled us.

Salah has got more goals for them this season than he got in the whole of last season. I dismissed their chances because I thought they massively overachieved which was attributable to Klopp, their collapse as we might call it was for me gravity reasserting itself.

The Dutchman has done well because he’s put his ego aside and not tried to instil his own languid philosophy into this Liverpool side, he’s stuck to the Klopp script religiously since September

This season? They’ve been able to rely on Salah to get them out of all kinds of scrapes. I clearly underestimated his ability to have that kind of season at the age he is.

This will be a title that’s been won practically single handedly in a way we’ve not seen in football since Maradonna with Argentina in 1986.


The rest of Liverpool’s players? They are ok nothing special. Van Dijk isn’t the defender he was, Allison isn’t the goalkeeper he was.

[Mac76]

I didn't dismiss Liverpool's chances because I look at what's going on in front of me instead of looking at stats and underrating certain players - I also knew Klopp ran them into the ground and it was apparent very quickly that Slot was about getting them to be a bit more pragmatic and less heavy metal football

These so called 'terrible' performances aren't always that bad and we would have loved to see a terrible 2-0 home win yesterday wouldn't we?

Liverpool may not be the best team ever but they're better than people are giving them credit for, yes some of it's down to Salah but others are contributing too. They have some very good players, Diaz, Gakpo (and that's not a windup, it's just true I can give you the figures again if you want), also Van Dyke and some good younger players too. Injuries (or lack of) have unquestionably helped them big time though.

Would they win the league without Salah - possibly not but they would be closer than some people think, with the number of opportunities they'd get, a decent forward in his area would still get some of those goals and remember he takes pels as well

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh no I genuinely believe you think Gakpo is a good player, otherwise you wouldn’t harp on so much about him.

But I think it’s clear that without Salah that Liverpool would be nowhere this season (competing for top four rather than a title challenge). He’s scored by himself 40% of their goals.

It renders any discussion of any other player in that team largely worthless. They aren’t terrible players…I like Diaz even though he can be a bit of a headless chicken at times. They are good/decent players but as I say nothing special. Diaz is probably the only player other than Salah id take at Arsenal.

Salah scored 16 goals in the whole of last season in the league, he’s scored 25 in 27 so far this time around…there’s your difference.

[Mac76]

Oh no I genuinely believe you think Gakpo is a good player, otherwise you wouldn’t harp on so much about him.

But I think it’s clear that without Salah that Liverpool would be nowhere this season (competing for top four rather than a title challenge). He’s scored by himself 40% of their goals.

It renders any discussion of any other player in that team largely worthless. They aren’t terrible players…I like Diaz even though he can be a bit of a headless chicken at times. They are good/decent players but as I say nothing special. Diaz is probably the only player other than Salah id take at Arsenal.

Salah scored 16 goals in the whole of last season in the league, he’s scored 25 in 27 so far this time around…there’s your difference.

yes Salah is head-and-shouders above anyone else in the league, again he does take pels which makes a difference, I'm not arguing with that though but if on the right they had someone just as good as a Gakpo or Diaz, they'd still be a very good side

[HCZ_Reborn]

yes Salah is head-and-shouders above anyone else in the league, again he does take pels which makes a difference, I'm not arguing with that though but if on the right they had someone just as good as a Gakpo or Diaz, they'd still be a very good side

They’d be in and around the top four which is where I thought they’d be at the start of the season because I had no reason to think Salah would be at the level he’s proved to be at

[IBK]

I think we are honestly over complicating things in a way that we don’t need to.

I think there are parallels with Man City for sure, in that you can’t remove key players from a team and expect anything positive from it.

As for our vulnerability to counter attacks, it really is as simple as Arteta’s insistence on playing Partey at 6. It doesn’t work and it leaves our centre backs exposed.


There’s no point discussing a system change that will allow us to become more efficient going forward, because we simply don’t have the players to facilitate this. Even if (as we should do) we swap Rice and Partey around it’s not going to exponentially speed things up. The reason as I kept trying to explain to NQ the last couple of days we become slow and ponderous in the opponents half is that we lack the ability and confidence to dribble past them or execute a swift pass and move style. I suspect strongly that Odegaard is not fit, his constant decision to play more conservatively I suspect is to avoid further injury.

The one thing I noticed is that we were trying to utilise Merino as a typical centre forward by sending crosses into the box, but West Ham are good at defending crosses. We didn’t have an alternative strategy, and the only player with electric pace was Nwaneri who was marked out of the game and eventually went off with a knock (hopefully just a precaution).


In terms of recruitment this summer I think as well as a striker and a winger we clearly do need another ball playing midfielder. The alternative this season is to move Odegaard to 8 (assuming he’s fit enough to even play which I highly doubt) move Saka to 10 (when he’s back) and Nwaneri to the wing.

Playing Rice and Partey against West Ham at home is unnecessary (or at least it would be without the injury pile up we have)

But as for Saturday, ultimately we could have played more conservatively and come away with a point or a scrappy win, but really the result simply reflects only one thing…the paucity of choice available to us currently

As I say, I think that we resemble Citeh in more ways than simply losing key players. Both teams have done so, but I do think that this exposes a flaw in their approach. A team with the resources of Citeh should not have been undone to the extent they have been by the loss of Rhodri. Maybe he was papering over the cracks (ageing squad etc), but by the same token, they continue to misfire after they spent big in January - buying a very good player in Nico Gonzalez to cover for Rhodri. They also (unlike us) have one of the best strikers in the world in Haaland.

I think that football is moving beyond the Guardiola (and Arteta) possession model, and is becoming more faster and more direct, focussing on transitions to stretch the opposition. Liverpool are exploiting this, but Newcastle; Villa; Forest are also playing in this way. In Forest's case, I have read some interesting stuff about how leaving the lion's share of possession to the opposition is combating fatigue and player burn out. Football evolves quickly, and Guardiola (and his protege Arteta) suddenly look vulnerable. You are right, we don't have the players to play a different way - but this is even more of a worry for me. Our limited recruitment over the Summer - and indeed over the last few transfer windows is the antithesis of the game that many of our competitors are making work for them.

I fear that trying to buy more players with the technical ability to cope with a demanding 'system-based' style of play may not only be difficult, but that the style of play itself may be past its sell by date.

[Niall_Quinn]

I do think we have bottled it. Maybe not by failing to win the league, but certainly when it has come to opportunities to at least put pressure on Liverpool. The manager as good as said so much about Saturday's game, and we did not play like title winners against the likes of Bournemouth; Fulham; Everton; Brighton; Newcastle (not to mention our cup exits). We have been profligate when it comes to scoring from clear chances throughout, and have had more defensive lapses and mistakes than I can remember for a long time. I am not saying that we have a God given right to win every game, but injuries or not our players have not stepped up when needed too many times. When Odegard was hiding on Saturday, when we played with no intent or drive and simply looked limp; when once again we were at sixes and sevens for their goal it's difficult not to reach the conclusion that we wilted when it counted. And this is by no means the first time we have been found wanting when Liverpool have dropped points. While admittedly this has not been the case throughout, too many times I have not seen a team with the fight needed to sustain a title challenge. Objectively, a review of our season won't focus on injuries first and foremost. It will show a team of players who, while they may have faced insurmountable odds in winning the league with key injuries and lack of player investment, failed to reach their potential.

And BTW I specifically said that we did not bottle it last season.

We've DEFINITELY bottled it, on almost every occasion that mattered. As usual - barring last season which could now almost be viewed as a last hurrah for this squad. Last season was the big push on the back of the big philosophy brought from city by Arteta. Wenger went over the top and on to the finish line with big bastards, fast bastards, technical bastards and the odd dirty scrote who did what needed to be done. But he let that all wither into the namby pamby, dainty dancers that ALMOST had the prowess of Barcelona but not quite, and the not quite made all the difference. Look at the squad under Arteta, it bears no resemblance to Wenger's successful squads. Bears a lot of resemblance to his later squads though, squads that were world famous for collapsing under the slightest pressure.

By pressure I don't just mean league placings and crucial, must-win opportunities to capitalise on our rivals mistakes. I also mean facing the pressures of the unexpected, the games where the opponent stubbornly refuses to submit to our philosophy. I think we're the most successful team over the past few years when measured against just the top 6, aren't we? Or we're certainly up there. That's because the top 6 will play us at chess, which we like. The bottom 6? They play draughts which is not our game. Liverpool were so boring yesterday, yet they won the match by reverting to lumping it up the field and running after it - something we find vulgar and impure. City had Marmoush tearing around the place, constantly making the run, calling for the ball. He hardly ever got it. Not their way, not their game. Foden might as well have been on the bench, they didn't use him, didn't need him.

We've joined the party as the last guests are clearing out. People mention the 700 mill invested, which isn't even a real figure and doesn't take into account the players we let go, including those strikers that didn't fit our pristine model. We bottled it when it came to making the real investments at the proper time when they would have counted, when beers would be left in the fridge and there would be girls to dance with. Now, with the lights going out, we're all kitted up in Pep fashion raring to go.

We also bottle it every time we step on a pitch against a team that won't accommodate us. We don't have the players, we won't change the tactics, we won't beat them at their own game like Wenger's dirty bastards liked (actually liked) to do. For anyone to say we don't have the technical ability to change our game, be more direct, introduce some urgency is crazy considering we geared up the whole team to be a precise, technical weapon. We have the that capability but the manager won't compromise, adapt, adjust. The Evertons, West Hams, all bottled. What else could it be called? The chance to take the risks necessary to win, spurned. The blind belief that over 38 games, eventually, our methodical application would win the day.

Everywhere you look we bottled it. In the transfer market, the philosophy, the tactics, adapting to the opponent, all of it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

As I say, I think that we resemble Citeh in more ways than simply losing key players. Both teams have done so, but I do think that this exposes a flaw in their approach. A team with the resources of Citeh should not have been undone to the extent they have been by the loss of Rhodri. Maybe he was papering over the cracks (ageing squad etc), but by the same token, they continue to misfire after they spent big in January - buying a very good player in Nico Gonzalez to cover for Rhodri. They also (unlike us) have one of the best strikers in the world in Haaland.

I think that football is moving beyond the Guardiola (and Arteta) possession model, and is becoming more faster and more direct, focussing on transitions to stretch the opposition. Liverpool are exploiting this, but Newcastle; Villa; Forest are also playing in this way. In Forest's case, I have read some interesting stuff about how leaving the lion's share of possession to the opposition is combating fatigue and player burn out. Football evolves quickly, and Guardiola (and his protege Arteta) suddenly look vulnerable. You are right, we don't have the players to play a different way - but this is even more of a worry for me. Our limited recruitment over the Summer - and indeed over the last few transfer windows is the antithesis of the game that many of our competitors are making work for them.

I fear that trying to buy more players with the technical ability to cope with a demanding 'system-based' style of play may not only be difficult, but that the style of play itself may be past its sell by date.


Again I’m really far from convinced. I’m sure there is some stylistic change in the game, that happens a lot. How relevant that is to us this season…just don’t see it.

Liverpool lost Van Dijk to injury in the Merseyside derby in 2020 they went from being league champions to only securing 4th on the last day of the season. Not saying we would have won the title if Saliba stayed fit but I think it clearly torpedoed any chance of us winning the thing

A football team can absolutely be affected by the loss of even one player if that player is key to how they play.

I’m not denying we need to change our style and be more direct, but it makes not a bit of difference to where we are currently. We lost at home to West Ham because we don’t have goalscorers in the team, it really isn’t anymore complicated than that.

Quick Transition play works well when you’re playing a side that will come out and attack you, but it’s naive to assume teams didn’t think to employ that against City last session. No they just had a beast of a player in Rodri who was able to neutralise the threat on the brief occasions the opponent did get the ball

[Niall_Quinn]

Again I’m really far from convinced. I’m sure there is some stylistic change in the game, that happens a lot. How relevant that is to us this season…just don’t see it.

Liverpool lost Van Dijk to injury in the Merseyside derby in 2020 they went from being league champions to only securing 4th on the last day of the season. Not saying we would have won the title if Saliba stayed fit but I think it clearly torpedoed any chance of us winning the thing

A football team can absolutely be affected by the loss of even one player if that player is key to how they play.

I’m not denying we need to change our style and be more direct, but it makes not a bit of difference to where we are currently. We lost at home to West Ham because we don’t have goalscorers in the team, it really isn’t anymore complicated than that.

Quick Transition play works well when you’re playing a side that will come out and attack you, but it’s naive to assume teams didn’t think to employ that against City last session. No they just had a beast of a player in Rodri who was able to neutralise the threat on the brief occasions the opponent did get the ball

You are still measuring everything with the Pep mindset. There's ALWAYS space on a pitch, always. Watch any game, the space is right there if you have the players that can exploit it. And I'm not talking intricate triangles that pull opponents out of position, I'm talking actual space, open grass. You'll see it 50 times in a game. But very few want to exploit it or can exploit it. We have the technical and pacey players that could put endless pressure on stubborn defences. I know you don't agree but if technical ability and pace are not the key attributes we have in this squad then what the hell do we have?

[Niall_Quinn]

Btw, the keeper opting against fucking around in his own box but instead thumping it into a channel for somebody to chase can also be called a transition, or Stoke or whatever you want to call it. Well Liverpool know how to do it, works for them, why can't we give it a try?

[HCZ_Reborn]

You are still measuring everything with the Pep mindset. There's ALWAYS space on a pitch, always. Watch any game, the space is right there if you have the players that can exploit it. And I'm not talking intricate triangles that pull opponents out of position, I'm talking actual space, open grass. You'll see it 50 times in a game. But very few want to exploit it or can exploit it. We have the technical and pacey players that could put endless pressure on stubborn defences. I know you don't agree but if technical ability and pace are not the key attributes we have in this squad then what the hell do we have?

Of course there’s always space on a pitch, but if a team comes to defend that space will tend to be behind you and only in front of your opponents

It’s got nothing to do with style of play it’s to do with the fact that defenders and especially full backs are quicker and fitter than they used to be, if you’ve got a speed merchant on the wing the defence will double up on him, if you’ve got two (which we don’t currently) the job is much harder.

There is something to be said for being able to get the ball forward quickly but again only possible if you have someone technically competent in central midfield, we don’t…

As for Pep ball, you again are somehow convinced that the slow metronomic passing is a feature of a system. It’s not, it’s a consequence of where the team has been able to maintain their defensive shape before you’ve got into their third.

Of course you can pull players out of position and stretch play, but it’s a hell of a lot more difficult when a team has committed to positional discipline and only coming forward on the break.

[Mac76]

We've DEFINITELY bottled it, on almost every occasion that mattered.

No, 'bottling' implies fear, whereas in our case it's incompetence and being misguided - Arteta went for one attacking player (Sesko) in the summer then gave up when he coudn't get him and went back to his comfort zone of goalkeepers and defensive players

I've heard the club and Edu were far from convinced on prioritising Merino over an actual attacker and they were right

He simply seems to underplay the need for more attacking players and won't even consider someone if they aren't what he thinks is perfect for his setup, it plays into his stubborness and control freakery - again though it's not fear it's just his apparent mindset

[Niall_Quinn]

Arteta's tactics drip with fear. I kind of understand it too, in a limited way. Remember back to just how woeful of defence used to be. Arteta fixed that, but it's also like he made defence the priority for every player on the field. Fear of losing the ball, so we rack up the short passes, fear of being caught on the break so we shun anything that isn't safe. Always, always looking for ball retention rather than trying to get that ball forward as efficiently as possible. Seems like a whole lot of fear to me. And the transfer policy reflects it. Merino, Calafiori, even Rice.

[Mac76]

Arteta's tactics drip with fear. I kind of understand it too, in a limited way. Remember back to just how woeful of defence used to be. Arteta fixed that, but it's also like he made defence the priority for every player on the field. Fear of losing the ball, so we rack up the short passes, fear of being caught on the break so we shun anything that isn't safe. Always, always looking for ball retention rather than trying to get that ball forward as efficiently as possible. Seems like a whole lot of fear to me. And the transfer policy reflects it. Merino, Calafiori, even Rice.

well it's arguing over words but i'd say 'caution' rather than fear, but you can put it that way, he just doesn't strike me as being afraid but rather convinced if he gets the defence right we'll never concede a goal again, which is obvs an unobtainable fantasy btu he seems to believe in it...

[Letters]

I don't really know how you bottle the title when you're not in front in the first place. It has always been Liverpool's to lose.
It's certainly true we have failed to take advantage of their slips, but this hasn't been like 2 years ago when we were surely favourites and then fell in the final furlongs.

[Marc Overmars]

Arteta's tactics drip with fear. I kind of understand it too, in a limited way. Remember back to just how woeful of defence used to be. Arteta fixed that, but it's also like he made defence the priority for every player on the field. Fear of losing the ball, so we rack up the short passes, fear of being caught on the break so we shun anything that isn't safe. Always, always looking for ball retention rather than trying to get that ball forward as efficiently as possible. Seems like a whole lot of fear to me. And the transfer policy reflects it. Merino, Calafiori, even Rice.

I agree and I think it’s probably because of how we collapsed in 22/23 that he’s gone down this path. We were electric at times that season but also very open at the back and eventually it cost us.

I don’t mind the pragmatism but he’s forgotten that you also need match winners to get you over the line. Apart from Saka we don’t have anyone who can create a bit of magic out of nothing. Coaches like Mourinho and Simeone who’ve been famed for being spoilers always had genuine quality up front to go with the dogged defending.

[KSE Comedy Club]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/videos/ckgzvj97vl2o

Lego haired cunt :lol:

Asked by the Irish woman whether having no attacking options meant that we had only two shots on target

“I don’t want to put it down to that”


Really? Twenty shots on goal and only two on target and you don’t want to put it down to you breaking the only attacking players we have :lol:


Silly, silly man

'There's still a long way to go, we're only in February' - Arteta on Arsenal defeat

That says it all, we are now at phase 5.5 of 'the process' - the delusional stage.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The red was incorrect and VAR should have overruled it. MLS was fouled first, that's how the "goal scoring opportunity" was created in the first place. How VAR didn't pick that up is a mystery. After that it was a clear foul and that's the only thing VAR examined, evidently. Unless they saw the foul on MLS and simply overlooked it because it's Arsenal and MLS - irresistible I would suspect. It ay not have had an impact on the score, but MLS should have been playing from the KO anyway which certainly would have helped prevent that ridiculous goal we conceded.

I do agree that it was a foul on MLS first, but he should've gone down instead of trying to challenge Kudus.

Also he was guilty of doing what most of the team have been guilty of - dithering on the ball for no reason.
Raya was so far up the pitch MLS could and should have passed across to him in one touch and eliminated the danger.

So in the end the red was regrettably, inevitable. I don't have too much of an issue with it.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I continue to believe we should have had a punt on Rashford.
Two assists today apparently.
It couldn't be any bloody worse.

I'm starting to agree with you on this one, despite previously feeling I'd rather be forcibly arsefucked in prison by a gang of wrong uns.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I do think we have bottled it. Maybe not by failing to win the league, but certainly when it has come to opportunities to at least put pressure on Liverpool. The manager as good as said so much about Saturday's game, and we did not play like title winners against the likes of Bournemouth; Fulham; Everton; Brighton; Newcastle (not to mention our cup exits). We have been profligate when it comes to scoring from clear chances throughout, and have had more defensive lapses and mistakes than I can remember for a long time. I am not saying that we have a God given right to win every game, but injuries or not our players have not stepped up when needed too many times. When Odegard was hiding on Saturday, when we played with no intent or drive and simply looked limp; when once again we were at sixes and sevens for their goal it's difficult not to reach the conclusion that we wilted when it counted. And this is by no means the first time we have been found wanting when Liverpool have dropped points. While admittedly this has not been the case throughout, too many times I have not seen a team with the fight needed to sustain a title challenge. Objectively, a review of our season won't focus on injuries first and foremost. It will show a team of players who, while they may have faced insurmountable odds in winning the league with key injuries and lack of player investment, failed to reach their potential.

And BTW I specifically said that we did not bottle it last season.

Absolutely spot on.

The only thing I will add is that we were setup to fail after the summer window.
Starting the season with a 22 man squad instead of a full 25 man squad and expecting to mount a title charge (alongside 3 other cups) should be considered gross misconduct.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I just feel there's goals in this side. Admittedly that opinion is starting to fly in the face of evidence, but Nwaneri looks likely, Odegaard can score, Rice chips in here and there.
I basically agree with you though and it's why I think you're being a bit harsh on Arteta. Yes, we are light on squad depth and yes we needed a striker but I'm not sure Arteta is responsible for transfer dealings. And we're still above everyone but Liverpool - they've been lucky with injuries and have had Salah on absolute fire all season.

There are goals, but this season our entire style of play has been turned upside down.

We don't counter with pace, we stop and hold up play when in good positions.
We spend too much time passing backwards and sideways.
Our general slow build up is the main cause of us not being able to 'break teams down' - if we actually ran at goal sometimes their defences wouldn't have time to organise themselves in tight military lines.
Our attackers look to pass out wide continually, instead of being more direct - our biggest reason for not scoring goals after......
Seemingly losing the ability to shoot on target!

[IBK]

No, 'bottling' implies fear, whereas in our case it's incompetence and being misguided - Arteta went for one attacking player (Sesko) in the summer then gave up when he coudn't get him and went back to his comfort zone of goalkeepers and defensive players

I've heard the club and Edu were far from convinced on prioritising Merino over an actual attacker and they were right

He simply seems to underplay the need for more attacking players and won't even consider someone if they aren't what he thinks is perfect for his setup, it plays into his stubborness and control freakery - again though it's not fear it's just his apparent mindset

I'd say that the word more connotes lack of courage, which for me in the context of our team (courtesy of Merriam Webster - 'mental or moral strength to venture, persevere, and withstand danger, fear, or difficulty' - applies nicely. While I have said that I don't think its really fair to use the term in respect of last season we did suffer a late collapse at home to Villa in mid April 2024, just as our title hopes were ended by our debacle at home against Brighton in May the season before.

True champions find a way to win the games that really matter. At the time we played West Ham - the game really mattered as it was a chance to put pressure on Liverpool following a stumble. Our players and manager were found wanting. As they have before when trying to capitalise on liverpool dropping points.

Its true that we are decimated by injuries, and of course this is going to affect us. But this said, we are still a better team on paper than West Ham, and had 9 first team players starting the match. They fell short in dynamism and intensity and for me this is the key issue. Our team did not leave it all out there to get a result from this game, and key players did not step up.

The reason why I shy away from using 'bottling' last season was the run we went on. You have bad days in football, and the Villa home game was one of them. But I'd say that we have fallen well short of the winning mentality needed to succeed throughout the whole of this season. We have our excuses, but they do not alter this underlying point. And 5 1/2 years into Arteta's project I can see why some are asking questions as to whether our manager and his team have what it takes to bring it to fruition.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I used the expression yesterday that talk of tactics was arranging deckchairs on the titanic and I stick by that. The mistake we made was assuming that the same players who got us 91 goals was it last season would be able to repeat that feat and that’s before we ran them into the ground

Comparing our plight to Man City’s which IBK has done I find particularly curious as City haven’t to my mind really experienced a problem with breaking teams down, their problem is in keeping goals out at the other end. And that is down to the fact that they are no longer being protected by the best defensive midfielder in the world.


If the argument is that possession based football is dull, can be vulnerable to teams that counter attack well etc…I mean that’s obvious isn’t it? It’s not a revelation that’s only become true this season. There isn’t an infallible tactic.


The irony of Arteta’s wish to make sure we don’t ship goals is that shipping goals on the counter becomes more likely when you do not have efficient chance makers and goal scorers because the absence of that forces you to overcommit. Doubly so when your first choice front three is all on the injury table. We all I think agree that we should make more of counter attacks and last season in the second half anyway it’s fair to say we did.


Both our wingers would make a run even before Raya intercepted a cross into the box and would throw the ball out for them to break.


The problem this season is we find it harder to take the lead to begin with. Why? A) for some reason I think players are missing chances that they’d otherwise score and B) Teams are better at working out how to neutralise us at set pieces (last time we scored from a set piece was January 1st)

The fact is the only way we are going to be able to play more direct is if teams come out and attack us to begin with, which they are under no obligation to do and if they are sensible they won’t (Palace and City it turns out aren’t sensible) so the talk of being more direct and quick is kind of academic.

Someone here accused MLS of dithering on the ball, it’s a fair criticism I guess but players dither on the ball when they aren’t confident in possession. They are half a second too slow in deciding whether to make a pass or whether to run another few yards with the ball. That kind of instinct is something you develop as a teenager you either have it or you don’t, and frankly players like MLS, Rice etc don’t. Rice is someone built to instinctively read danger and put out fires, his reading of the game doesn’t extend to being able to play an exact pass and know someone will be on the end of it.

Tactically it’s unnecessary to play two defensive midfielders against West Ham, in reality we don’t have the luxury of remedying that situation currently.

[IBK]

There are goals, but this season our entire style of play has been turned upside down.

We don't counter with pace, we stop and hold up play when in good positions.
We spend too much time passing backwards and sideways.
Our general slow build up is the main cause of us not being able to 'break teams down' - if we actually ran at goal sometimes their defences wouldn't have time to organise themselves in tight military lines.
Our attackers look to pass out wide continually, instead of being more direct - our biggest reason for not scoring goals after......
Seemingly losing the ability to shoot on target!

...which brings me back to the point I was making about our whole system/style of play, and whether this is becoming a bit obselete. HCZ says what can we do when teams don't come to play us. For me this is a bit of a cop out. For the last 2 or 3 seasons mid/low blocks have been a problem for us, even when at full strength. The manager has not found an effective answer (even our much vaunted set pieces have been found out). Like you say, the way we play is an open invitation to defences to get re-organised. An effective system should not have to rely one individual player (Saka) to produce a moment of brilliance. For all that Liverpool have benefitted from Salah's form, they create a multitude of chances every game and would still do without him. We make the game too difficult.

We do not manage transitions, there is indeed a lack of direct running, and options when we 'attack'. We almost oblige defensive teams by playing the ball wide and slowing the game down.

And the huge irony is that we nullify the advantage of having such a talented defence - and one of the best 6's in the game in Rice - by playing them so high up the pitch to make up for our lack of dynamism in midfield.

[HCZ_Reborn]

...which brings me back to the point I was making about our whole system/style of play, and whether this is becoming a bit obselete. HCZ says what can we do when teams don't come to play us. For me this is a bit of a cop out. For the last 2 or 3 seasons mid/low blocks have been a problem for us, even when at full strength. The manager has not found an effective answer (even our much vaunted set pieces have been found out). Like you say, the way we play is an open invitation to defences to get re-organised. An effective system should not have to rely one individual player (Saka) to produce a moment of brilliance. For all that Liverpool have benefitted from Salah's form, they create a multitude of chances every game and would still do without him. We make the game too difficult.

We do not manage transitions, there is indeed a lack of direct running, and options when we 'attack'. We almost oblige defensive teams by playing the ball wide and slowing the game down.

And the huge irony is that we nullify the advantage of having such a talented defence - and one of the best 6's in the game in Rice - by playing them so high up the pitch to make up for our lack of dynamism in midfield.

I think you’re missing my point which is at this exact moment in time it’s completely and totally academic. I’ve said until I’m blue in the face that most of the time we absolutely do not need to be playing two defensive midfielders, and in fact my last post actually fulsomely agrees with your point that actually ironically the contradiction between wanting to play this controlled game which makes our attacking inefficient which means we have to overcommit and as a result get caught too high in possession.

But given where we are at the moment in terms of the players available to us, we have two choices….continue to play the way we are doing and make ourselves vulnerable to conceding on the break, or we play more conservatively and hope against hope to get a scrappy goal. The luxury is not there to play the ball quicker. I’m literally the person who always moans about us playing Rice at 8, but I’m in no expectation that if we swap Rice and Partey around everything is going to get magically better and we will create far more chances which our second string attack will put away.

[IBK]

I think you’re missing my point which is at this exact moment in time it’s completely and totally academic. I’ve said until I’m blue in the face that most of the time we absolutely do not need to be playing two defensive midfielders, and in fact my last post actually fulsomely agrees with your point that actually ironically the contradiction between wanting to play this controlled game which makes our attacking inefficient which means we have to overcommit and as a result get caught too high in possession.

But given where we are at the moment in terms of the players available to us, we have two choices….continue to play the way we are doing and make ourselves vulnerable to conceding on the break, or we play more conservatively and hope against hope to get a scrappy goal. The luxury is not there to play the ball quicker. I’m literally the person who always moans about us playing Rice at 8, but I’m in no expectation that if we swap Rice and Partey around everything is going to get magically better and we will create far more chances which our second string attack will put away.

'Academic' debate is all we do on here :lol:

I do understand where we are - and that is a good part of my concern about where we can get to under Arteta. I think that we have set ourselves up - both in terms of our system and our players - not to be able to adapt to the more efficient and effective way in which many of our competitors are playing the game. I agree with you that swapping existing players will not achieve this. More generally, we have too few creative players; to few runners to receive the ball in advanced positions; and no reliable finishers.

We have spent on players and have a high wage bill. The quality we do have has been enough for us to finish second with a following wind. But our system is now too easily neutralised - even with all our forwards available. And even the potential transfer targets we have been linked to are unlikely, IMO to see us champions.

[HCZ_Reborn]

'Academic' debate is all we do on here :lol:

I do understand where we are - and that is a good part of my concern about where we can get to under Arteta. I think that we have set ourselves up - both in terms of our system and our players - not to be able to adapt to the more efficient and effective way in which many of our competitors are playing the game. I agree with you that swapping existing players will not achieve this. More generally, we have too few creative players; to few runners to receive the ball in advanced positions; and no reliable finishers.

We have spent on players and have a high wage bill. The quality we do have has been enough for us to finish second with a following wind. But our system is now too easily neutralised - even with all our forwards available. And even the potential transfer targets we have been linked to are unlikely, IMO to see us champions.

There’s nothing we can do to guarantee a league win. But ultimately there’s a reasonable expectation that having the best squad wins you the league regardless of the system you play, Liverpool are going to win because they arguably have the best available squad (which is currently a low bar). So in terms of which of us, city or Liverpool win the league next season comes down to who spends the wisest in the summer.

Having Rodri and having good attacking players allowed City to neutralise any potential weakness their style of play left them open to in transition.they were never having to overcommit. So really the stylistic change comes down to are we going to persist with two defensive midfielders in most games

[HCZ_Reborn]

By academic I mean, there’s nothing we can do currently that will make us more efficient up front

[Letters]

'Academic' debate is all we do on here :lol:.
Rubbish!

We also insult each other. You prick.


:run:

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t insult anyone, it’s not in my nature. I simply point out things that certain people lack the self reflection to see for themselves :lol:

[IBK]

There’s nothing we can do to guarantee a league win. But ultimately there’s a reasonable expectation that having the best squad wins you the league regardless of the system you play, Liverpool are going to win because they arguably have the best available squad (which is currently a low bar). So in terms of which of us, city or Liverpool win the league next season comes down to who spends the wisest in the summer.

Having Rodri and having good attacking players allowed City to neutralise any potential weakness their style of play left them open to in transition.they were never having to overcommit. So really the stylistic change comes down to are we going to persist with two defensive midfielders in most games

OK - fair enough - but your assessment depends upon Arteta's system remaining competetive (in terms of being able to win the league) if we bring in the players he wants (itself by no means a given by reference to our past few transfer windows).

Both City and Liverpool are going to have to re-build. Citeh's because of ageing players dropping off and Liverpool's because of the 3 key players at the end of their contracts. We have to have the best transfer Summer in living memory - even if we retain faith in Arteta's system.

Honest (and open) question - who would you back to do the above most quickly and effectively? For me - given Citeh's wealth and the fact that (if he retains his drive and desire) Guardiola is a winner who has shown he can evolve and adapt, and given how impressive and what a perfect fit Slot has already proven himeself to be - I would be inclined to back either team over us.

Of course, we are ignoring the chasing pack here...there are a number of well managed and administered teams in the EPL now. Even if not winners, they are certainly disruptors.

This is not an over reaction to a season ending defeat. It is based more on trajectory and the eye test of what we are seeing on the pitch. Let's be honest, we have not really been functioning as a team all season, and having levelled out, Arsenal is now on a downward trajectory - and I feel that this is as much in the boardroom as on the pitch. Is this temporary, and does the club and manager have the will and the ability to arrest it?

[IBK]

Rubbish!

We also insult each other. You prick.


:run:

:lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

OK - fair enough - but your assessment depends upon Arteta's system remaining competetive (in terms of being able to win the league) if we bring in the players he wants (itself by no means a given by reference to our past few transfer windows).

Both City and Liverpool are going to have to re-build. Citeh's because of ageing players dropping off and Liverpool's because of the 3 key players at the end of their contracts. We have to have the best transfer Summer in living memory - even if we retain faith in Arteta's system.

Honest (and open) question - who would you back to do the above most quickly and effectively? For me - given Citeh's wealth and the fact that (if he retains his drive and desire) Guardiola is a winner who has shown he can evolve and adapt, and given how impressive and what a perfect fit Slot has already proven himeself to be - I would be inclined to back either team over us.

Of course, we are ignoring the chasing pack here...there are a number of well managed and administered teams in the EPL now. Even if not winners, they are certainly disruptors.

This is not an over reaction to a season ending defeat. It is based more on trajectory and the eye test of what we are seeing on the pitch. Let's be honest, we have not really been functioning as a team all season, and having levelled out, Arsenal is now on a downward trajectory - and I feel that this is as much in the boardroom as on the pitch. Is this temporary, and does the club and manager have the will and the ability to arrest it?

City have a bigger job to do in my view

They have no idea what condition Rodri will be in after being out for so long. They have to replace defence, they have to replace De Bruyne and they have to contend with the fact that the spotlight will be very much on them even if they ultimately aren’t punished for their piss taking cheating.


Liverpool also have work to do. They will need replacements for Van Dijk and Salah


We really arent in a situation where we have to tear up everything and start again. I think there are players we could do with getting rid of, but they are largely on the periphery. We need to add to what we have. And ultimately we are dependent on how much KSE wants to be generous.

Players like Saliba? We need to sit down and talk to them. And say give us to 2026 to win something big, if we do you sign a new extension…if we don’t….we agree to sell you to Real Madrid.

I don’t think we are on a downward trajectory long term. We haven’t gelled as a team because there’s been almost no point during this season where we’ve been able to play our best team. Do we need to adapt? For sure. But at the most objective I can be if we take away the absolute crushing sense of disappointment we feel at not toppling a Liverpool side we all deep down know we are better than (to the point of wanting an inquest into it). Given everything that’s gone wrong for us this season (and yes it’s as much self inflicted as it is misfortune) we’ve actually shown remarkable resilience. That title ending defeat was the first league defeat in 15 games and it took our entire first choice front three to be out for it to happen.

Do I accept that in football if you’re not moving forward, you’re invariably moving backwards. Yes. And if we don’t get what we need to get this summer…I think the fanbase will not tolerate it. But ultimately whilst we do not want to stagnate we also don’t want to be a chaotic entity like Chelsea (a state that predates that American cretin taking over despite the shortness of other people’s memories)

[HCZ_Reborn]

I just think we give too much credence to tactical systems, they might make the difference in the odd game here or there but over the course of a league season it ultimately comes down to having the most skilled players and keeping them relatively injury free.

Arteta’s dogmatic standing by his tactical system is for sure frustrating but it hasn’t been the reason why we won’t win the title. As a contributing factor it’s a third/fourth order reason at most. After not signing a striker, injuries and refereeing decisions.

It’s something I totally agree Arteta needs to be more flexible about, but equally as much as I dislike him both as a coach and as a person. He has unquestionably been more tactically proactive than his two most recent predecessors in the job

[IBK]

City have a bigger job to do in my view

They have no idea what condition Rodri will be in after being out for so long. They have to replace defence, they have to replace De Bruyne and they have to contend with the fact that the spotlight will be very much on them even if they ultimately aren’t punished for their piss taking cheating.


Liverpool also have work to do. They will need replacements for Van Dijk and Salah


We really arent in a situation where we have to tear up everything and start again. I think there are players we could do with getting rid of, but they are largely on the periphery. We need to add to what we have. And ultimately we are dependent on how much KSE wants to be generous.

Players like Saliba? We need to sit down and talk to them. And say give us to 2026 to win something big, if we do you sign a new extension…if we don’t….we agree to sell you to Real Madrid.

I don’t think we are on a downward trajectory long term. We haven’t gelled as a team because there’s been almost no point during this season where we’ve been able to play our best team. Do we need to adapt? For sure. But at the most objective I can be if we take away the absolute crushing sense of disappointment we feel at not toppling a Liverpool side we all deep down know we are better than (to the point of wanting an inquest into it). Given everything that’s gone wrong for us this season (and yes it’s as much self inflicted as it is misfortune) we’ve actually shown remarkable resilience. That title ending defeat was the first league defeat in 15 games and it took our entire first choice front three to be out for it to happen.

Do I accept that in football if you’re not moving forward, you’re invariably moving backwards. Yes. And if we don’t get what we need to get this summer…I think the fanbase will not tolerate it. But ultimately whilst we do not want to stagnate we also don’t want to be a chaotic entity like Chelsea (a state that predates that American cretin taking over despite the shortness of other people’s memories)

Good points all. I think that ultimately I am a bit sceptical about whether the club as a whole is properly aligned to achieve success, and worried that last season - rather than being a stepping stone to this - may turn out to be a one off high point. This season will have done nothing to help Arsenal secure its players to long term deals. If you were a sought after player who craves success and has sacrificed a lot under Arteta would you sign a new contract now rather than wait and see who we bring in and how they bed down? If we did sell Saliba do you currently trust the club to have planned properly and bring in a player of equivalent talent? If you are Arteta how long do you stay before you are tainted with 'failure' (a relative term but one that I have no doubt he will associate with failing to win things)?

I defended the club over January - and stand by this. But (to use a contentious adjective) we bottled it in the transfer window last season. A lot of our problems this season have stemmed from, or been hugely exacerbated by this. I don't think we behaved like a club laser focussed on winning the title, and Gooners have painful memories of top 4 being considered a trophy. The past 9 months have suggested a will to be in the CL places rather than a real desire to get to the top of the tree.

So I'm not pessimistic for the sake of it - but rather my faith in this project has been shaken by a number of events this season. If we are not on a downwards trajectory, we have certainly lost momentum on and off the pitch. And regaining this is harder than it would have been to maintain it last Summer.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I wouldn’t accuse anyone of being pessimistic for the sake of it, anymore than I would accuse anyone of being angry for the sake of it. And I’ve been fucking furious because when Rodri was injured for me that was the Go sign for us to go on and win the title, and I’m still incredibly upset deep down that this didn’t materialise

I don’t know how invested in success KSE is, ultimately I know that Arsenal is an asset for them…something for KSE to use as collateral for bridging loans to expand their business. But similarly they will recognise that whilst directly you’re not making much more money from finishing champions than finishing 4th, indirectly you are going to be able to negotiate far more lucrative sponsorship deals etc.

When you look at our financial position, the one thing that stands out is that actually we don’t generate as much commercial revenue as we could, and this isn’t just in comparison to Man City or Liverpool but in comparison to teams like Spurs. Arsenal were always known as the Bank of England club because of the pin striped blue bloods on the board. I think there’s ultimately this conservative risk adverse mentality that has survived them.

[IBK]

Didn't think you were acusing me of being pessimistic - you weren't. I guess we all have to wait and see what happens - but I suspect that we are goign to be a bit underwhelmed by our business even this summer. My concerns over his system (and whether some of his player issues are self-inflicted) aside, I think the truth is that Arteta has by and large got more of a tune out of some of his players than their talents strictly merit. Which is why I fear that being 2 points off the title last year was a high water mark.

[Mac76]

There are goals, but this season our entire style of play has been turned upside down.

We don't counter with pace, we stop and hold up play when in good positions.
We spend too much time passing backwards and sideways.
Our general slow build up is the main cause of us not being able to 'break teams down' - if we actually ran at goal sometimes their defences wouldn't have time to organise themselves in tight military lines.
Our attackers look to pass out wide continually, instead of being more direct - our biggest reason for not scoring goals after......
Seemingly losing the ability to shoot on target!

I think Arteta's focus on defensive players and 100% possession is the major factor on all the above - -the team both newer and older players are being forced to try to their best in a stodgy system

I think our players are mostly capable of playing a more balnced style which yes sees us have a reasonable amount of control but is happy to pull back a little to create the space to then run behind and transition quickly

[Mac76]

City have a bigger job to do in my view

They have no idea what condition Rodri will be in after being out for so long. They have to replace defence, they have to replace De Bruyne and they have to contend with the fact that the spotlight will be very much on them even if they ultimately aren’t punished for their piss taking cheating.


Liverpool also have work to do. They will need replacements for Van Dijk and Salah



But Citeh and Liverpool have some key advantages

Given the choice I think most top quality players will choose title-winning teams, with experienced managers who have won things, over also-rans run by a rookie

And the elite players we have will start to have their heads turned soon if they lose the belief that they can win under Arteta

Rice's subbing was pure petulance by Arteta and to do it against West Ham was really humiliating, if he's not careful he will lose the dressing room and that will be a real issue

[HCZ_Reborn]

But Citeh and Liverpool have some key advantages

Given the choice I think most top quality players will choose title-winning teams, with experienced managers who have won things, over also-rans run by a rookie

And the elite players we have will start to have their heads turned soon if they lose the belief that they can win under Arteta

Rice's subbing was pure petulance by Arteta and to do it against West Ham was really humiliating, if he's not careful he will lose the dressing room and that will be a real issue

This in anyway presupposes that we would be going for the same kind of players to begin with. Man City will have the advantage because out of the three clubs they will be able to offer the most in wages and bonuses. Other than that, if you can sell a project to a player they will get on board

Plus is this your explanation for why Liverpool only signed a Juventus reject in the summer….potential players looked around and thought “who the fuck is this bald prick? Where’s Klopp?” I guess that’s laudable :lol:

Rice was shit on Saturday, absolutely stank the place out. I don’t hold him wholly responsible because he’s playing in a position he can’t play in. But I don’t know if you’re more annoyed about that or the fact that he brought on Zinchenko to replace him :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

The Rice sub was ludicrous. One of the few players that can take a corner, and that's the only way we were going to score, that or a pen. Stupid move and even stupider replacement. Did Zin get a touch of the ball after coming on?

[Mac76]

This in anyway presupposes that we would be going for the same kind of players to begin with. Man City will have the advantage because out of the three clubs they will be able to offer the most in wages and bonuses. Other than that, if you can sell a project to a player they will get on board

Well that's all just designed to contradict what I just said

the project includes the club's recent track record and the credentials of its manager


Plus is this your explanation for why Liverpool only signed a Juventus reject in the summer….potential players looked around and thought “who the fuck is this bald prick? Where’s Klopp?” I guess that’s laudable :lol:


Maybe they already had a stronger squad with quality attacking options?

They've not done badly have they ? :rolleyes:


Rice was shit on Saturday, absolutely stank the place out.

So was the whole team, Arteta doesn't normally haul players off so early and to bring on someone he almost never normally uses in midfield said to me he was doing it in retaliation for Rice's involvement in the goal

But hey you just carry on contradicting everything I say, whatever

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well that's all just designed to contradict what I just said

the project includes the club's recent track record and the credentials of its manager



Maybe they already had a stronger squad with quality attacking options?

They've not done badly have they ? :rolleyes:



So was the whole team, Arteta doesn't normally haul players off so early and to bring on someone he almost never normally uses in midfield said to me he was doing it in retaliation for Rice's involvement in the goal

But hey you just carry on contradicting everything I say, whatever

Yeah it’s strange that, how someone if they don’t agree with someone will attempt to contradict the point they’ve made. I may not like you particularly, but I don’t play favourites if you say something I agree with I either say I agree with you or I say nothing at all because I’ve nothing to add to what you’ve said (strange as it may seem that does happen from time to time).

You don’t agree that City and Liverpool are in for a harder summer than us, and gave an explanation why….i didn’t take it personally I’m just telling you why I don’t agree.

Just like I don’t agree that there’s anything wrong with hauling a player off if he’s performing badly. That it’s unprecedented in Rice’s case is totally irrelevant. Plus assuming Rice is going to be upset with Arteta about it is an opinion but it’s also mind reading.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/1SqH0aSYe78/oardefault.jpg

[Mac76]

The Rice sub was ludicrous. One of the few players that can take a corner, and that's the only way we were going to score, that or a pen. Stupid move and even stupider replacement. Did Zin get a touch of the ball after coming on?

indeed

and no I don't think so

[Mac76]

Plus assuming Rice is going to be upset with Arteta about it is an opinion but it’s also mind reading.

...which of course isn't something you do, e.g. after watching a heavily edited documentary ;)

[HCZ_Reborn]

...which of course isn't something you do, e.g. after watching a heavily edited documentary ;)

I still don’t get why people use the term heavily edited as if it’s relevant to any counter argument. Unless the suggestion is the editing was done to make Arteta appear even worse than he is, rather than a more sanitised version (because you’d think the club would have some editorial control over things). If it was heavily edited (which it might well have been) then Arteta could arguably be even worse than how he appeared in that documentary


But yeah saying what comes across in someone’s manner and body language which is a big part of what I have to analyse with clients, is definitely the same thing as you saying I’d be pissed off if Arteta did that to me and so I definitely know he’s alienated Rice

Do I know for definite that Arteta is passive aggressive, possibly on the spectrum, cold as your mother’s tit and in no way a people person? No but the indications are there.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway that’s mine and Letter’s feud. Don’t try and muscle in on it :lol:

[Letters]

I still don’t get why people use the term heavily edited as if it’s relevant to any counter argument. Unless the suggestion is the editing was done to make Arteta appear even worse than he is, rather than a more sanitised version.
Oh are we still doing this? :lol:
Go on then, for old time's sake.

By heavily edited, I don't mean they were trying to edit it to promote any particular narrative. But in that whole series there were a few minutes of footage with him with his wife. From that you're inferring this whole narrative about their relationship. Give me a break. Body language analysis is widely regarded as a pseudoscience anyway.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh are we still doing this? :lol:
Go on then, for old time's sake.

By heavily edited, I don't mean they were trying to edit it to promote any particular narrative. But in that whole series there were a few minutes of footage with him with his wife. From that you're inferring this whole narrative about their relationship. Give me a break. Body language analysis is widely regarded as a pseudoscience anyway.

Yeah if I’m being honest that was the biggest reach, however even with that admittedly small snapshot there’s the same avoidant body language and emotional distance that you see in his interactions with others. Of course it could be that he’s more natural and tactile with his family without a camera around him, and actually the one thing that would go against my belief that he could be on the spectrum is that he wouldn’t have sought out having a wife and having children in the first place not even to assume a pretence of normality.

[HCZ_Reborn]

And don’t give me that “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in” shit :lol:. You thrive on this stuff

[Letters]

And don’t give me that “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in” shit :lol:. You thrive on this stuff

Hey! I resemble that remark :angry:

:ninja:

[IBK]

City have a bigger job to do in my view

They have no idea what condition Rodri will be in after being out for so long. They have to replace defence, they have to replace De Bruyne and they have to contend with the fact that the spotlight will be very much on them even if they ultimately aren’t punished for their piss taking cheating.


Liverpool also have work to do. They will need replacements for Van Dijk and Salah


We really arent in a situation where we have to tear up everything and start again. I think there are players we could do with getting rid of, but they are largely on the periphery. We need to add to what we have. And ultimately we are dependent on how much KSE wants to be generous.

Players like Saliba? We need to sit down and talk to them. And say give us to 2026 to win something big, if we do you sign a new extension…if we don’t….we agree to sell you to Real Madrid.

I don’t think we are on a downward trajectory long term. We haven’t gelled as a team because there’s been almost no point during this season where we’ve been able to play our best team. Do we need to adapt? For sure. But at the most objective I can be if we take away the absolute crushing sense of disappointment we feel at not toppling a Liverpool side we all deep down know we are better than (to the point of wanting an inquest into it). Given everything that’s gone wrong for us this season (and yes it’s as much self inflicted as it is misfortune) we’ve actually shown remarkable resilience. That title ending defeat was the first league defeat in 15 games and it took our entire first choice front three to be out for it to happen.

Do I accept that in football if you’re not moving forward, you’re invariably moving backwards. Yes. And if we don’t get what we need to get this summer…I think the fanbase will not tolerate it. But ultimately whilst we do not want to stagnate we also don’t want to be a chaotic entity like Chelsea (a state that predates that American cretin taking over despite the shortness of other people’s memories)

I've thought more about this.

I think we have regressed this season. On the playing side, even with all our players fit, we had dropped from our form during the back end of last season. If you look at individual form, it's difficult to think of any player - apart from Saka; Raya and Partey - who has not dropped off. Outside a few games where we have found conditions to our liking, goals have been harder to come by - and looking at the top scorer charts is, frankly, embarrassing for a team with our aspirations. I'm not downplaying the fact that we have scored a lot of goals from corners - they all count - but IMO this has masked disfunction in open play...and our set pieces have now been worked out.

We are currently second, yes, but it's difficult to escape from the feeling that this position is despite of our patchy form, not a result of us playing particularly well.

We can point to injuries, yes - but this metric is a sharp regression too. Something is not right with our player conditioning. And it's getting worse.

We have undoubtedly regressed in terms of transfer business. And Edu's departure is a regression as it stands.

I asked who an objective observer would back going forwards. The fact that Liverpool have managed their players so well, and not been affected by their 3 key players running down their contracts; also their excellent track record in the transfer market (not to mention that they will walk the league and are likely to do better than us in Europe) suggests to me a firmer foundation for next season than we appear to have. Citeh have regressed further than us, but their wealth and consistent track record over the previous 5 seasons suggests that they will bounce back (I'm not particularly confident that the charges against them will turn out to be a huge limiting factor).

Favouring us to come good over these 2 teams requires faith that potential outgoings like Partey; Jorghino; Trossard (sigificant factors for us last season) can be replaced adequately; that players like Odegard; Rice; Martinelli will reach their heights again; that we will invest heavily in our forward department; that Saka will be the same again after his injury. That MLS and Nwaneri can continue their trajectories as very young additions to our squad. We have an incredible amount of work to do; a lot of money to spend and require a following wind to end up calling this season a blip. I think we have as much work - or more - than Liverpool and Citeh have to do. And whether our board have the will and the expertise to do this properly is by no means a given.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t really agree. Apart from anything else this team is a unit so it’s not 100% fair to assess individual performances without including the context of who they are playing with (and more importantly without)

At almost every point this season the side we’ve put out is a patched up side. In fact I can only think of one game where we had our strongest side available to us and that was away at Sporting Lisbon. And we demolished them

The only two players who I think have noticeably been poorer this season than last are Trossard and Odegaard. Trossard hasn’t been terrible but compared to last season the goal output hasn’t been there, and Odegaard looks unfit and he looks bereft of confidence.

For me the only other thing that is different is in the second half of the season we had the set piece routine to allow us to break down stubborn teams and then we could go berserk (and that accounts for why in the last 18 games we averaged 3 goals a game)

I think where I would agree with you is that there was a complacency in believing that what worked in 23/24 would work now. But to suggest the whole team is regressing, or we need to tear things up and begin again is for me a panic measure. Now it might seem hypocritical me saying this when I’ve been screaming for Arteta’s head congealed in its own evil blood. But actually the system and the squad is largely what I’ve wanted to preserve.


The main thrust of this team is that we are hard to beat, and that’s largely proven to be the case. There is adaptation for sure that’s needed, but when you look at what we’ve had to put up with in terms of being able to put out a team, and the way we’ve overplayed so many players….it would seem churlish to throw the baby out with the bath water

[Niall_Quinn]

We're 2nd because city have fallen away. If they'd even been a shadow of themselves from last season we'd be a fair distance behind them too.

White has been a big loss. He allowed us to use the flanks effectively (one of them anyway) rather than as a temporary stop-off point for our pitter-patter progression. White was also the main spoiler in the box when those set pieces were coming in. Take Saka out too and we're a bit fucked really.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We're 2nd because city have fallen away. If they'd even been a shadow of themselves from last season we'd be a fair distance behind them too.

White has been a big loss. He allowed us to use the flanks effectively (one of them anyway) rather than as a temporary stop-off point for our pitter-patter progression. White was also the main spoiler in the box when those set pieces were coming in. Take Saka out too and we're a bit fucked really.

Yeah in regards to what you say about Saka and White on set pieces I tend to agree, it’s not a coincidence that we haven’t scored from a set piece since January 1st.

[Marc Overmars]

Saka and White’s link up combined with Odegaard consistently feeding them was what made the team tick. That right side was everything.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Of course there’s always space on a pitch, but if a team comes to defend that space will tend to be behind you and only in front of your opponents

It’s got nothing to do with style of play it’s to do with the fact that defenders and especially full backs are quicker and fitter than they used to be, if you’ve got a speed merchant on the wing the defence will double up on him, if you’ve got two (which we don’t currently) the job is much harder.

There is something to be said for being able to get the ball forward quickly but again only possible if you have someone technically competent in central midfield, we don’t…

As for Pep ball, you again are somehow convinced that the slow metronomic passing is a feature of a system. It’s not, it’s a consequence of where the team has been able to maintain their defensive shape before you’ve got into their third.

Of course you can pull players out of position and stretch play, but it’s a hell of a lot more difficult when a team has committed to positional discipline and only coming forward on the break.

Yes but teams find it easy to defend against us entirely because we are too slow to attack.

We are more concerned with racking up the possession and no. of passes completed stats to worry about actually running up the pitch directly, and putting the defences under any sort of pressure.

Instead they have a good 5 minutes to get their whole team back in the 18 yard a box and line up ready to stop our pass the ball the death attacking.

[Mac76]

Anyway that’s mine and Letter’s feud. Don’t try and muscle in on it :lol:

No, I've always said you were inferring much more from that show than was possible

and meanwhile, you told me that watching people live, unedited, at games wasn't a way of assessing the manager's relationship with certain players :wacko:

[HCZ_Reborn]

No, I've always said you were inferring much more from that show than was possible

and meanwhile, you told me that watching people live, unedited, at games wasn't a way of assessing the manager's relationship with certain players :wacko:

Realising the fact that short of upper case and exclamation marks, there isn’t a “tone” to text. Thus the laughing chap tends to denote that when I say something, it’s not being said seriously. I have no doubt you hold that opinion, it was just a remark that it was largely something Letters and I bickered about for…a while I think


Hope that clears that one up


Also I hope you can appreciate the difference between directly observed interaction (albeit as has been stated on an edited documentary) and something you think you can see from the stands which you wouldn’t be able to see unless you were Inspector Gadget with an inbuilt zoom function in your eyes

That seems significantly different to me, perhaps not to you

[IBK]

I don’t really agree. Apart from anything else this team is a unit so it’s not 100% fair to assess individual performances without including the context of who they are playing with (and more importantly without)

At almost every point this season the side we’ve put out is a patched up side. In fact I can only think of one game where we had our strongest side available to us and that was away at Sporting Lisbon. And we demolished them

The only two players who I think have noticeably been poorer this season than last are Trossard and Odegaard. Trossard hasn’t been terrible but compared to last season the goal output hasn’t been there, and Odegaard looks unfit and he looks bereft of confidence.

For me the only other thing that is different is in the second half of the season we had the set piece routine to allow us to break down stubborn teams and then we could go berserk (and that accounts for why in the last 18 games we averaged 3 goals a game)

I think where I would agree with you is that there was a complacency in believing that what worked in 23/24 would work now. But to suggest the whole team is regressing, or we need to tear things up and begin again is for me a panic measure. Now it might seem hypocritical me saying this when I’ve been screaming for Arteta’s head congealed in its own evil blood. But actually the system and the squad is largely what I’ve wanted to preserve.


The main thrust of this team is that we are hard to beat, and that’s largely proven to be the case. There is adaptation for sure that’s needed, but when you look at what we’ve had to put up with in terms of being able to put out a team, and the way we’ve overplayed so many players….it would seem churlish to throw the baby out with the bath water

A fair counter. And I appreciate of course that we have been hurt by injuries. But I don't think your analysis of our players' form is correct. Starting from the back, Saliba has been uncharacteristically shaky in a number of games now - having been near perfect last season. I don't need to argue Zinchenko and Kiwior. In MF Rice was acknowledged as in poor form during the first part of the season, and has been patchy since. Martinelli has been largely indifferent. Before his injury, Havertz was not producing the output of last season. You've acknowledged Trossard and Odegard. In general terms, I just don't think the players we have available have clicked like they did last time around.

As for the system - well it is clearly not working very well. I think that one of our problems is that even when we had most of our players fit we continue to struggle against the mid/low block. We are also now seeing goals scored against us from a very limited number of opposition chances - an issue that arises partly because we continue to play a high line to no effect in terms of scoring.

We have a dearth of strikers and with the malaise of our single point of creativity from MF we look ineffectual, and vulnerable to the counter.

Maybe with everything going for us and everyone fit and on form things would be different. But I don't think you sustain a title challenge with one or two single points of failure. We don't have signicant injury problems outside our front 3, so why do we seem so easy to score against? I don't think I said that we need to tear everything up and start again, but I think only the biggest optimist would argue that there is a lot of work for us to do in the Summer to get this team on a winning track again.

[Mac76]

Also I hope you can appreciate the difference between directly observed interaction (albeit as has been stated on an edited documentary) and something you think you can see from the stands which you wouldn’t be able to see unless you were Inspector Gadget with an inbuilt zoom function in your eyes



So why do people go to football games if they can't see anything? Gosh if that's the case a lot of people have been ripped off for over 150 years :lol:

[Mac76]

Yes but teams find it easy to defend against us entirely because we are too slow to attack.

We are more concerned with racking up the possession and no. of passes completed stats to worry about actually running up the pitch directly, and putting the defences under any sort of pressure.

Instead they have a good 5 minutes to get their whole team back in the 18 yard a box and line up ready to stop our pass the ball the death attacking.

This, this, this, this, this, this, th-well, you get the picture

[HCZ_Reborn]

So why do people go to football games if they can't see anything? Gosh if that's the case a lot of people have been ripped off for over 150 years :lol:

So if a footballer scores at the opposite end of the pitch from where you’re standing you can see in Crystal 20/20 their facial expression, their mannerisms as much as you could if you were watching them from a private drone cam following them about everywhere.

I would say don’t be obtuse, but that’s just been ruined forever by The Shawshank Redemption

Plus for me the jury is out on whether it’s something you do deliberately or you really are that slow

[HCZ_Reborn]

A fair counter. And I appreciate of course that we have been hurt by injuries. But I don't think your analysis of our players' form is correct. Starting from the back, Saliba has been uncharacteristically shaky in a number of games now - having been near perfect last season. I don't need to argue Zinchenko and Kiwior. In MF Rice was acknowledged as in poor form during the first part of the season, and has been patchy since. Martinelli has been largely indifferent. Before his injury, Havertz was not producing the output of last season. You've acknowledged Trossard and Odegard. In general terms, I just don't think the players we have available have clicked like they did last time around.

As for the system - well it is clearly not working very well. I think that one of our problems is that even when we had most of our players fit we continue to struggle against the mid/low block. We are also now seeing goals scored against us from a very limited number of opposition chances - an issue that arises partly because we continue to play a high line to no effect in terms of scoring.

We have a dearth of strikers and with the malaise of our single point of creativity from MF we look ineffectual, and vulnerable to the counter.

Maybe with everything going for us and everyone fit and on form things would be different. But I don't think you sustain a title challenge with one or two single points of failure. We don't have signicant injury problems outside our front 3, so why do we seem so easy to score against? I don't think I said that we need to tear everything up and start again, but I think only the biggest optimist would argue that there is a lot of work for us to do in the Summer to get this team on a winning track again.

I’m no fan of the system. I’ve been very outspoken in saying I don’t enjoy the football we play. But as I say no system is infallible/fool proof. My feeling and my concern is that Arteta wants to model us on the Euro 2024 Spain team. The most noticeable aspect of that team was that the centre forward was largely the most peripheral part of that team. Alvaro Morata at his best was never prolific, and he certainly wasn’t at his best during that tournament. A bit like Havertz for Germany the role of the front man was to hold up the ball and create space for others. But then Germany also had an old fashioned meat and potatoes centre forward in Fullkrug to throw on.


The question is whether we are willing to change our tactics slightly. The most aggravated I’ve been with our system and our manager’s dogmatic reliance on it was against Everton at home. We were struggling to break down Everton yet he made like for like swaps rather than play Odegaard and Nwaneri together. Would it have worked thus turning a draw into a win? I have no idea but the refusal to even countenance it absolutely incensed me.


This is for me the only game I can think of where the system was the primary reason for dropping points, in terms of it being more relevant than other factors.

I don’t think we have the players to break down a stubborn defence like Newcastle. They have always dealt with our set pieces well even when we have had everyone available and they could become our bogey team. Equally a lot of what I’d call upper mid table teams give us problem, because they are able to keep us at bay and then catch us out with a long ball


A route one striker and a player that isn’t Xhaka but has his ability for long passes might not go amiss

[KSE Comedy Club]

I’m no fan of the system. I’ve been very outspoken in saying I don’t enjoy the football we play. But as I say no system is infallible/fool proof. My feeling and my concern is that Arteta wants to model us on the Euro 2024 Spain team. The most noticeable aspect of that team was that the centre forward was largely the most peripheral part of that team. Alvaro Morata at his best was never prolific, and he certainly wasn’t at his best during that tournament. A bit like Havertz for Germany the role of the front man was to hold up the ball and create space for others. But then Germany also had an old fashioned meat and potatoes centre forward in Fullkrug to throw on.


The question is whether we are willing to change our tactics slightly. The most aggravated I’ve been with our system and our manager’s dogmatic reliance on it was against Everton at home. We were struggling to break down Everton yet he made like for like swaps rather than play Odegaard and Nwaneri together. Would it have worked thus turning a draw into a win? I have no idea but the refusal to even countenance it absolutely incensed me.


This is for me the only game I can think of where the system was the primary reason for dropping points, in terms of it being more relevant than other factors.

I don’t think we have the players to break down a stubborn defence like Newcastle. They have always dealt with our set pieces well even when we have had everyone available and they could become our bogey team. Equally a lot of what I’d call upper mid table teams give us problem, because they are able to keep us at bay and then catch us out with a long ball


A route one striker and a player that isn’t Xhaka but has his ability for long passes might not go amiss

It's a very simple fix - the best form of football that everyone knows works - quick, counter attacking.

Speed and agility is what we need to add to our game.

50,000 pass football is demonstrably dogshit.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's a very simple fix - the best form of football that everyone knows works - quick, counter attacking.

Speed and agility is what we need to add to our game.

50,000 pass football is demonstrably dogshit.

I don’t want to sound patronising and ask you why it’s called counter attacking football. But the clue is in the name

The reason we scored an average of three a game in the second half of last season was counter attack. But in order to play on the counter attack, you have to open the scoring to begin with or you have to have a side that will come out and attack. Death by a thousand passes is often a consequence not a feature. The alternative to what we are doing isn’t counter attack it’s route one football….and that would be lovely if we had the type of players who could a) play a decent long ball b) trap a decent long ball.

Deck chairs on the Titanic as I keep saying

[Niall_Quinn]

Nobody needs to be able to trap a long ball, they just need to be able to run and time that run. Besides, Nwaneri is superb at trapping the ball, as we saw last night. Any of them can play a long ball, except Raya who seems to be particularly poor with distribution beyond 2 yards. Nobody is saying keep hoofing for the whole 90. But FFS, just mix it up a bit. Take the painful predictability out of our play. That moment last night when the wide man (was it Trossard?) got the ball on the left and the overlap was an underlap - ridiculous, absurd, frustrating, boring, tragic, should be illegal. It's sad to see Nwaneri already learning to play with his back to goal. Horrible. At one point last night I noticed every player beyond the carrier at the halfway line had his back to goal. It's like they are allergic to pressurising the opposition defence, like they are our mates and we're patiently waiting for them to get their shit together before we launch a vulgar and unprovoked attack against them. Surprised we don't issue a written apology when we get the ball in their box.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Nobody needs to be able to trap a long ball, they just need to be able to run and time that run. Besides, Nwaneri is superb at trapping the ball, as we saw last night. Any of them can play a long ball, except Raya who seems to be particularly poor with distribution beyond 2 yards. Nobody is saying keep hoofing for the whole 90. But FFS, just mix it up a bit. Take the painful predictability out of our play. That moment last night when the wide man (was it Trossard?) got the ball on the left and the overlap was an underlap - ridiculous, absurd, frustrating, boring, tragic, should be illegal. It's sad to see Nwaneri already learning to play with his back to goal. Horrible. At one point last night I noticed every player beyond the carrier at the halfway line had his back to goal. It's like they are allergic to pressurising the opposition defence, like they are our mates and we're patiently waiting for them to get their shit together before we launch a vulgar and unprovoked attack against them. Surprised we don't issue a written apology when we get the ball in their box.

Of course you need to be able to trap a ball that’s been launched at you from half way up the pitch, are you expecting it will just land neatly at your feet without having to cushion it with your head or chest or bring it under control with either feet.


You also need to have a degree of physical strength to hold off the opposition players who get paid to make sure you don’t receive that pass unimpeded.

Honestly it defies fucking logic the way some people speak on here. You act as if turning base metal into gold was a scientific breakthrough rather than a magical fantasy

[Niall_Quinn]

Of course you need to be able to trap a ball that’s been launched at you from half way up the pitch, are you expecting it will just land neatly at your feet without having to cushion it with your head or chest or bring it under control with either feet.


You also need to have a degree of physical strength to hold off the opposition players who get paid to make sure you don’t receive that pass unimpeded.

Honestly it defies fucking logic the way some people speak on here. You act as if turning base metal into gold was a scientific breakthrough rather than a magical fantasy

No, I'm expecting the ball to go into the space in front of the player already running towards - wait for it - the OPPOSITION goal. Trapping it to feet is precisely what we don't need more of.

You believe you are some sort of expert that has a deep understanding of the game. But I've watched the game over decades and know the difference between football and Pepball. All the stuff you go on about is the product of Pep's tragic influence on the game. Trap the long ball? Who ever heard the like of it? Get the fucking ball into space an chase it, outpace the defender, beat you man. THAT'S real football, not the shit we see today. If Giggs could do it against people kicking the shit out of him, if Henry could do it, if some of the Brentford and Bournemouth wide men can do it, why are our lot fucking around with everything going to feet? Every time? It's bollocks. Pep had some of the greatest talents ever to play the game at Barca, so his shit worked there and was very effective. Wenger ruined us by trying to do the same, when all his teams before were powerful, fast, direct, technical too but not to the degree where the joy was sucked out of the game.

Defenders re quick these days, you take a ball to feet, take that second touch, third touch and it's all over, you are closed down. Haven't you been watching our games? Same shit, over and over and over. There's NO first touch, just pace, power. That's why we need Gyokeres btw, absolutely ideal. Is he here yet? Why not?

[HCZ_Reborn]

No I don’t think I’m an expert with a deep understanding of the game, in fact in everything I’m saying is trying to get across the opposite. I’m an ordinary sort of chap when it comes to football, my understanding of the intricacies is pretty superficial. Unlike people here I never even played for a pub side or for the school team.

My issue with you is that not that I think I understand more about the game than you. It’s that with football as with everything else in life you are trapped in a way of thinking “it must be this way and no other way”, even if it leads you to absurd conclusions if it fits the narrative you want to project, anything goes.


We do play a certain system, and as a result we bought in players to compliment that system. You can change things at the drop of a hat if you’re having a Sunday kick about in the park but not when you’re up against fellow millionaire professionals who are drilled till their blue in the face to deal with what you can throw at them.

Managers win by having the best players and are more peripheral to a teams success than at any time in history. If that coach/manager doesn’t have the players he needs available to them, a mid match rethink in style is about as helpful as pissing off a cliff face on a windy day in Cleethorpes

[Niall_Quinn]

No I don’t think I’m an expert with a deep understanding of the game, in fact in everything I’m saying is trying to get across the opposite. I’m an ordinary sort of chap when it comes to football, my understanding of the intricacies is pretty superficial. Unlike people here I never even played for a pub side or for the school team.

My issue with you is that not that I think I understand more about the game than you. It’s that with football as with everything else in life you are trapped in a way of thinking “it must be this way and no other way”, even if it leads you to absurd conclusions if it fits the narrative you want to project, anything goes.


We do play a certain system, and as a result we bought in players to compliment that system. You can change things at the drop of a hat if you’re having a Sunday kick about in the park but not when you’re up against fellow millionaire professionals who are drilled till their blue in the face to deal with what you can throw at them.

Managers win by having the best players and are more peripheral to a teams success than at any time in history. If that coach/manager doesn’t have the players he needs available to them, a mid match rethink in style is about as helpful as pissing off a cliff face on a windy day in Cleethorpes

Total bullshit mate. Your MO, create the argument for somebody then knock it down with a resigned sigh. I've said we need to mix things up, not do everything one way as you are pretending is my argument. Yeah, these are multimillionaire professionals but you're the one claiming they can't play a long ball and can't trap a ball. Overpaid then? Total clear out and get some players in from Newcastle or Forest or Brentford or Fulham? They all seem to be able to move the ball up the pitch at a decent pace.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Total bullshit mate. Your MO, create the argument for somebody then knock it down with a resigned sigh. I've said we need to mix things up, not do everything one way as you are pretending is my argument. Yeah, these are multimillionaire professionals but you're the one claiming they can't play a long ball and can't trap a ball. Overpaid then? Total clear out and get some players in from Newcastle or Forest or Brentford or Fulham? They all seem to be able to move the ball up the pitch at a decent pace.

Your argument is that we are in the predicament we are in because we aren’t mixing it up. I’m saying you’re needlessly over complicating things.

I’m saying that when you’re playing in the premier league and you want to be direct you need players that are good at playing long balls and trapping long balls. Xhaka as terrible as he was, made a ball into a heat seeking missile with his left foot. You just launch a ball long in hope it gets headed away by the first defender who gets to it, and you immediately give up possession.


If you don’t have the player who plays the game in such a way that they can latch on to said heat seeking missile take it down and control it first time, you again will be dispossessed. Can our players play long balls and trap balls…I’m sure they can but unless you’re practising doing that to an art form you’re not going to bamboozle deep lying defences by doing so anymore than you are with death by a thousand passes….at least with the latter one you can keep the ball.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Don’t believe me. Look at Villa’s goal against Palace scored by Rodgers. If you’re telling me that wasn’t a move perfected on the training ground by players with the talent for it (Rodgers is both technically gifted and strong) I don’t know what to tell you.

[IBK]

Total bullshit mate. Your MO, create the argument for somebody then knock it down with a resigned sigh. I've said we need to mix things up, not do everything one way as you are pretending is my argument. Yeah, these are multimillionaire professionals but you're the one claiming they can't play a long ball and can't trap a ball. Overpaid then? Total clear out and get some players in from Newcastle or Forest or Brentford or Fulham? They all seem to be able to move the ball up the pitch at a decent pace.

I also disagree with HCZ that a total change of system is either what is being advocated or is necessary. For me it simply needs to be tweaked to progress the ball faster up the pitch with our CM's making runs to prevent our wingers automatically being overloaded. For me, we always look first to play the same passes into space - out wide, back to centre; back to our defenders - rinse and repeat - while the team as a whole creeps up the pitch to face a set defence and a congested final third. Our only creator in MF, Odegard, spends as much of his time running sideways and backwards as he does going forwards and there is rarely anyone making overlapping runs with him from central positions.

Solving this does not require a system change, it needs less emphasis on keeping possession and more bravery - particularly as the former generally comes to nothing anyway when our moves break down in an around the box.

[Niall_Quinn]

Your argument is that we are in the predicament we are in because we aren’t mixing it up. I’m saying you’re needlessly over complicating things.

I’m saying that when you’re playing in the premier league and you want to be direct you need players that are good at playing long balls and trapping long balls. Xhaka as terrible as he was, made a ball into a heat seeking missile with his left foot. You just launch a ball long in hope it gets headed away by the first defender who gets to it, and you immediately give up possession.


If you don’t have the player who plays the game in such a way that they can latch on to said heat seeking missile take it down and control it first time, you again will be dispossessed. Can our players play long balls and trap balls…I’m sure they can but unless you’re practising doing that to an art form you’re not going to bamboozle deep lying defences by doing so anymore than you are with death by a thousand passes….at least with the latter one you can keep the ball.

And I said what I said but you've ignored it and restated the original argument. So no progress there. Let me take a turn at putting words in your mouth. We can't play a more direct game because we don't have the players. Therefore we must stick with the 1mph tippy-tappy and hope we can unlock those defences you say are so accomplished. It's not working, partly because we have a big injury problem right now, but it hasn't worked over the last 2 decades either - no trophies! So I said let's buy players from teams that can play a more direct game, problem solved right? We should be able to get decent money for players like Odegard, Martinelli, Rice, Trossard, Nwaneri, Saka - enough to buy the whole Villa front line. Let's do it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

And I said what I said but you've ignored it and restated the original argument. So no progress there. Let me take a turn at putting words in your mouth. We can't play a more direct game because we don't have the players. Therefore we must stick with the 1mph tippy-tappy and hope we can unlock those defences you say are so accomplished. It's not working, partly because we have a big injury problem right now, but it hasn't worked over the last 2 decades either - no trophies! So I said let's buy players from teams that can play a more direct game, problem solved right? We should be able to get decent money for players like Odegard, Martinelli, Rice, Trossard, Nwaneri, Saka - enough to buy the whole Villa front line. Let's do it.

Isn’t it ironic that when in your own mind you try and be more clear and direct, you end up being more garbled

Sorry, I saw words but can’t make head nor tails of that

[Niall_Quinn]

Isn’t it ironic that when in your own mind you try and be more clear and direct, you end up being more garbled

Sorry, I saw words but can’t make head nor tails of that

You do that a lot too, when your argument runs out of steam. The irony being I was pretending to be you, so maybe that's why it makes no sense?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I also disagree with HCZ that a total change of system is either what is being advocated or is necessary. For me it simply needs to be tweaked to progress the ball faster up the pitch with our CM's making runs to prevent our wingers automatically being overloaded. For me, we always look first to play the same passes into space - out wide, back to centre; back to our defenders - rinse and repeat - while the team as a whole creeps up the pitch to face a set defence and a congested final third. Our only creator in MF, Odegard, spends as much of his time running sideways and backwards as he does going forwards and there is rarely anyone making overlapping runs with him from central positions.

Solving this does not require a system change, it needs less emphasis on keeping possession and more bravery - particularly as the former generally comes to nothing anyway when our moves break down in an around the box.

I’m not even talking about a system change. Villa who I used as an example aren’t a team who plays direct, route one football routinely. What I said is that they have the players that can allow them to try out a more direct routine that’s been developed in the training ground. And what I’m saying is, I don’t think we have the players to go more direct.

Even if we aren’t talking long ball. A more direct long ball into the feet of Trossard? He’s not quick enough to get there.

Nwaneri is but like with Saka you will just get players doubling up on him and as I’ve said more than once it’s not fair to make a 17 year old the focal point of attack

Why is Odegaard running sideways and backwards, I’m sorry but I don’t believe that’s what he’s been told to do in training. It’s because he’s totally bereft of confidence, there are two explanations. One is that he’s carrying an injury and he’s worried that any impact from an intercepting player will finish his season off. Two he’s worried that he will give away possession and it will prove costly. We can’t have it both ways, we can’t bemoan players for playing it safe and then equally have a go at them for overcommitting and leaving us in deep shtuck due to the transition which you and I both admit we are vulnerable to.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You do that a lot too, when your argument runs out of steam. The irony being I was pretending to be you, so maybe that's why it makes no sense?

Well you’re right, I do tend to run out of steam when I patiently try and explain the same thing multiple times but because the fantasy narrative is more appealing….it gets dismissed

[Niall_Quinn]

I also disagree with HCZ that a total change of system is either what is being advocated or is necessary. For me it simply needs to be tweaked to progress the ball faster up the pitch with our CM's making runs to prevent our wingers automatically being overloaded. For me, we always look first to play the same passes into space - out wide, back to centre; back to our defenders - rinse and repeat - while the team as a whole creeps up the pitch to face a set defence and a congested final third. Our only creator in MF, Odegard, spends as much of his time running sideways and backwards as he does going forwards and there is rarely anyone making overlapping runs with him from central positions.

Solving this does not require a system change, it needs less emphasis on keeping possession and more bravery - particularly as the former generally comes to nothing anyway when our moves break down in an around the box.

That's right. Just a bit more urgency. A bit more ambition. A willingness to take a risk, not suicidal risks but calculated ones. An attempt to keep the opposition defence on their toes, keep them busy, wear them out not bore them to tears. We absolutely do have the players that can achieve this, because even wrecked with injuries we're second in the table. But it has been those stupid dropped points where a willingness to push on for the win might have made all the difference. Instead we keep seeing an unwillingness to lose and there's a difference between the two attitudes.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well you’re right, I do tend to run out of steam when I patiently try and explain the same thing multiple times but because the fantasy narrative is more appealing….it gets dismissed

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get a job at Arsenal, then you can bench Rice and kick Kabia out.

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m not even talking about a system change. Villa who I used as an example aren’t a team who plays direct, route one football routinely. What I said is that they have the players that can allow them to try out a more direct routine that’s been developed in the training ground. And what I’m saying is, I don’t think we have the players to go more direct.

Even if we aren’t talking long ball. A more direct long ball into the feet of Trossard? He’s not quick enough to get there.

Nwaneri is but like with Saka you will just get players doubling up on him and as I’ve said more than once it’s not fair to make a 17 year old the focal point of attack

Why is Odegaard running sideways and backwards, I’m sorry but I don’t believe that’s what he’s been told to do in training. It’s because he’s totally bereft of confidence, there are two explanations. One is that he’s carrying an injury and he’s worried that any impact from an intercepting player will finish his season off. Two he’s worried that he will give away possession and it will prove costly. We can’t have it both ways, we can’t bemoan players for playing it safe and then equally have a go at them for overcommitting and leaving us in deep shtuck due to the transition which you and I both admit we are vulnerable to.

Wild speculation all over the shop. Odegard is running sideways and backwards because that's what the bloody manager is telling him to do. He wouldn't be playing week in, week out if he was doing the opposite to what the manager instructed. After the city win Rice said it clearly - Arteta is great because he scripts everything down to the last detail, we don't need to think just do!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Wild speculation all over the shop. Odegard is running sideways and backwards because that's what the bloody manager is telling him to do. He wouldn't be playing week in, week out if he was doing the opposite to what the manager instructed. After the city win Rice said it clearly - Arteta is great because he scripts everything down to the last detail, we don't need to think just do!

:haha: you’re fucking priceless you are

“What you’re saying is speculation, what I’m saying is fact”

Get to fuck you drunk silly man :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

:haha: you’re fucking priceless you are

“What you’re saying is speculation, what I’m saying is fact”

Get to fuck you drunk silly man :lol:

Okay then, he's injured, lacks confidence and he's defying the manager.

And Rice is chatting shit.

Looks like you were right again!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Okay then, he's injured, lacks confidence and he's defying the manager.

And Rice is chatting shit.

Looks like you were right again!

Because the most rational explanation is a player who for the past two seasons was our driving force going forward would win the ball and had stats up there with De Bruyne, is suddenly now playing like Aaron Ramsey because Arteta who never had a problem with his positive play at the time has suddenly decided he needs to be far more safety first and introverted in his play.

That would make far more sense than a player who has never found his form after being injured for two months and because the on the pitch injury was quite a nasty one, it got in his head and he’s now more cautious. That and given he’s played every game almost since he’s been back he’s also just running on fumes.

[Mac76]

We do play a certain system, and as a result we bought in players to compliment that system. You can change things at the drop of a hat if you’re having a Sunday kick about in the park but not when you’re up against fellow millionaire professionals who are drilled till their blue in the face to deal with what you can throw at them.


I think you're being a bit simplistic about that

Sure, the night before a game you don't suddenly say - 'we're going to change everything' - but a good manager surely coaches his team to play in different ways against different types of sides and has a Plan B and even a Plan C if Plan A isn't working

Tierney is a very good example - Arteta should value Tierney because he can come on and play differently to an MLS, in that he will be more of an orthodox LB going up and down that side and putting in crosses etc, which in certain game states could unlock teams or at least present something different - instead he rejects him because he can’t do the inverted LB thing to which Arteta is so rigidly wedded

A lot of players are more adaptable than you're giving credit for and I think there's enough signs that actually we do have players who could, if encouraged by the coach and the system, transition far more quickly than they do


Managers win by having the best players and are more peripheral to a teams success than at any time in history.


This is blatantly untrue – look at Everton, a load of turgid shite under Dyche and then Moyes comes in and transforms them into a team which is far more positive in its approach, scoring goals and winning games – all without their nominally preferred striker in DCL

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think you're being a bit simplistic about that

Sure, the night before a game you don't suddenly say - 'we're going to change everything' - but a good manager surely coaches his team to play in different ways against different types of sides and has a Plan B and even a Plan C if Plan A isn't working

Tierney is a very good example - Arteta should value Tierney because he can come on and play differently to an MLS, in that he will be more of an orthodox LB going up and down that side and putting in crosses etc, which in certain game states could unlock teams or at least present something different - instead he rejects him because he can’t do the inverted LB thing to which Arteta is so rigidly wedded

A lot of players are more adaptable than you're giving credit for and I think there's enough signs that actually we do have players who could, if encouraged by the coach and the system, transition far more quickly than they do




This is blatantly untrue – look at Everton, a load of turgid shite under Dyche and then Moyes comes in and transforms them into a team which is far more positive in its approach, scoring goals and winning games – all without their nominally preferred striker in DCL

If you’re talking about the left back position. Tierney’s best attribute to my mind is that he’s the best crosser of the ball at the club. Great, probably should have played him more earlier on in the season when he could have tried to have found Havertz.

Calafiori is being played at left back rather than MLS as a tactical tweek. If Arteta was prioritising defence he’d play MLS, instead he’s prioritising the player who is better on the ball and can add a bit of uncertainty, such as turning his man in the box and almost scoring but for the post. The risk factor is that he’s slower than MLS and lacks positional discipline so like with West Ham on Saturday, he’s getting cooked for pace. But when it’s said as is often said that he’s overcautious, I’d say right there that’s a counter example to that.

We live in an era where players are coached to death, any variance in routine is likely a result of hours if not days of adaptation at the training ground, it’s all about instilling muscle memory.

It is entirely possible tactical tweaks will happen but they will take time. I think also people seem to think I’m insulting our players when I say they can’t do x or y. They do loads of different things better than most other players in the league do and that’s why we are second. But you can’t put petrol in a diesel engine and look anything but silly when you get exasperated when the car breaks down half way up the road

Arteta has encountered this problem when trying to shoehorn Partey in at right back, it doesn’t work

With the last bit, to clarify I mean winning as in winning trophies. Sure there’s enough leeway for a manager to change things and change a club from 17th to 12th. But ultimately most of the time, it’s the club with the best players and the most money to spend that wins the big things not the team with the best coach, apart from anything else 95% of what coaches do is largely all the same anyway.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Put it this way, if there was any club in the league that was in the predicament we are in, and a fan of that club was bemoaning lack of goals because the coach wasn’t prepared to mix it up stylistically. We’d laugh at that fan

If you go back and look at the discussions I’ve had with IBK about our system in the long term, I’ve absolutely stated we should adapt the system and be more flexible. I do think having the best players fit to play is ultimately more important than what system you use to play them, but a system is relevant (even though it’s less so the nearer you get to the top of the tree).

I’d like to bring in players who can mix it up a bit stylistically, but at the moment? We have to work with what we’ve got

[Mac76]

Calafiori is being played at left back rather than MLS as a tactical tweek.

It wasn't because MLS is suspended then? :haha:

He's actually been rotating them, they're quite similar except Cala's defending is very poor which means he's not suitable for LB, MLS can defend though so for me should be the choice for the biggest games amongst who we have

I think Cala is a better impact sub than MLS though

[HCZ_Reborn]

It wasn't because MLS is suspended then? :haha:

He's actually been rotating them, they're quite similar except Cala's defending is very poor which means he's not suitable for LB, MLS can defend though so for me should be the choice for the biggest games amongst who we have

I think Cala is a better impact sub than MLS though

MLS wasn’t suspended for West Ham game, he was sent off as a sub. And I think Calafiori would have started against Forest even without the red card, and at the risk of sounding harsh I don’t think he’d have been caught dithering on the ball as easily as MLS for said red card.

I’ll be honest not a big fan of MLS, I think he’s a very good squad player and certainly one of the better players to emerge from Hale End. But for me he’s not a baller, he’s more of an athlete. I think he can cross a ball better than Maitland Niles and his red cards have been more unfortunate than petulance (red card even, harsh to say plural when one was rightly rescinded) but ultimately technically limited…I’m hoping unlike Maitland Niles he doesn’t start sulking because he won’t ever play in central midfield

I don’t even think MLS is a better defender he’s just quicker because Calafiori is a centre back playing at left back

Calafiori mostly gets done defensively for pace

[KSE Comedy Club]

I don’t want to sound patronising and ask you why it’s called counter attacking football. But the clue is in the name

The reason we scored an average of three a game in the second half of last season was counter attack. But in order to play on the counter attack, you have to open the scoring to begin with or you have to have a side that will come out and attack. Death by a thousand passes is often a consequence not a feature. The alternative to what we are doing isn’t counter attack it’s route one football….and that would be lovely if we had the type of players who could a) play a decent long ball b) trap a decent long ball.

Deck chairs on the Titanic as I keep saying

Nothing wrong with what I said :shrug:

Unless you are fucking rain man, why feel the need to comment in that way?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Nothing wrong with what I said :shrug:

Unless you are fucking rain man, why feel the need to comment in that way?

I’m just wondering how you propose we should go about counter attacking to counter the attack of the other team so to speak when the other team isn’t coming out to attack

Given you started with the film references, we could goad them into attacking us like in the Warriors

“Come out to Plaaaaayy!” :lol:

Anyway nothing what with what you said, Definitely Nothing wrong with what you said. Definitely nothing wrong

Fuuck Rain Man, not seen that in years :lol:

[Mac76]

Calafiori mostly gets done defensively for pace

That's not what happened v West Ham though it wasn't pace, he stood off their player too much and allowed him to cross - it's like Zin, he doesn't have the technique, positoning or knowhow, he's just not a defender

[Mac76]

Nothing wrong with what I said :shrug:

Unless you are fucking rain man, why feel the need to comment in that way?

He's just on here to argue with people until they get bored and go and do something else, you'll never get the last word

[HCZ_Reborn]

He's just on here to argue with people until they get bored and go and do something else, you'll never get the last word

Are you still working from the assumption that someone could only disagree with you to be contrary

Are you that conceited that you don’t believe anyone could disagree with your opinions

That’s not rhetorical, I genuinely want to know

[KSE Comedy Club]

I also disagree with HCZ that a total change of system is either what is being advocated or is necessary. For me it simply needs to be tweaked to progress the ball faster up the pitch with our CM's making runs to prevent our wingers automatically being overloaded. For me, we always look first to play the same passes into space - out wide, back to centre; back to our defenders - rinse and repeat - while the team as a whole creeps up the pitch to face a set defence and a congested final third. Our only creator in MF, Odegard, spends as much of his time running sideways and backwards as he does going forwards and there is rarely anyone making overlapping runs with him from central positions.

Solving this does not require a system change, it needs less emphasis on keeping possession and more bravery - particularly as the former generally comes to nothing anyway when our moves break down in an around the box.

I think you are suggesting the same thing NQ is tbf.

We need more through balls, passes into space on the attack and up the pitch. Balls that the wingers / strikers (if we have any) can chase down.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's not what happened v West Ham though it wasn't pace, he stood off their player too much and allowed him to cross - it's like Zin, he doesn't have the technique, positoning or knowhow, he's just not a defender

:shrug: that’s exactly what happened against West Ham.

Were you sitting in the same area of the ground you were sitting in when you could tell for definite that Xhaka was a teachers pet

[KSE Comedy Club]

Isn’t it ironic that when in your own mind you try and be more clear and direct, you end up being more garbled

Sorry, I saw words but can’t make head nor tails of that

I'm not sure how:
a) you don't understand a word he typed & b) the fact that what he was saying was correct but mainly sarcastic in response to his original posting?

[KSE Comedy Club]

I’m not even talking about a system change. Villa who I used as an example aren’t a team who plays direct, route one football routinely. What I said is that they have the players that can allow them to try out a more direct routine that’s been developed in the training ground. And what I’m saying is, I don’t think we have the players to go more direct.

Even if we aren’t talking long ball. A more direct long ball into the feet of Trossard? He’s not quick enough to get there.

Nwaneri is but like with Saka you will just get players doubling up on him and as I’ve said more than once it’s not fair to make a 17 year old the focal point of attack

Why is Odegaard running sideways and backwards, I’m sorry but I don’t believe that’s what he’s been told to do in training. It’s because he’s totally bereft of confidence, there are two explanations. One is that he’s carrying an injury and he’s worried that any impact from an intercepting player will finish his season off. Two he’s worried that he will give away possession and it will prove costly. We can’t have it both ways, we can’t bemoan players for playing it safe and then equally have a go at them for overcommitting and leaving us in deep shtuck due to the transition which you and I both admit we are vulnerable to.

That's the difference between winners and losers.

Winners are brave enough to try, even if it doesn't always work.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'm not sure how:
a) you don't understand a word he typed & b) the fact that what he was saying was correct but mainly sarcastic in response to his original posting?

On a scale of 1-10, how likely is it do you think that I’m going to take a lecture from someone proposing that we can and should play counter attack against teams who play with 11 men behind the ball.

The point is NQ does what he always does when he has no answer, shift the goalposts. I don’t know whether it’s deliberate or alcoholic delirium

For me it seems a bit pointless to be talking specifically about the here and now and in response to my saying I don’t think we have the players to do what you think we should do, to say well why don’t we get those players.

Which becomes a different discussion entirely, if the discussion is why don’t we adapt this turgid football we are playing now when the summer comes by bringing in players that can mix it up, that’s almost a no brainer isn’t it…who would be against that

What I can’t understand is this petulance howling like a dog that’s been kicked in the nuts by people, about how we should be able to score goals if only we magically change up the way we play when a) albeit small there are indications that we’ve already done that b) you can build a house from sand but it’s going out with the tide come the evening.

[KSE Comedy Club]

That's right. Just a bit more urgency. A bit more ambition. A willingness to take a risk, not suicidal risks but calculated ones. An attempt to keep the opposition defence on their toes, keep them busy, wear them out not bore them to tears. We absolutely do have the players that can achieve this, because even wrecked with injuries we're second in the table. But it has been those stupid dropped points where a willingness to push on for the win might have made all the difference. Instead we keep seeing an unwillingness to lose and there's a difference between the two attitudes.

Spot on.

I see the excuses have already begun appearing, injuries, the red cards, etc.

Yes they have been an absolute rod up the backside this season, but I would argue we have lost out in all those draws rather than the few games we dropped points because of bad officiating.

Those games' results were because we were too cautious and too afraid we might lose. It's not a winning mentality.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's the difference between winners and losers.

Winners are brave enough to try, even if it doesn't always work.

Cool, so if I choose not to run into a brick wall, it’s because I lacked the courage to believe I could become ethereal and will myself to pass through it

[KSE Comedy Club]

Because the most rational explanation is a player who for the past two seasons was our driving force going forward would win the ball and had stats up there with De Bruyne, is suddenly now playing like Aaron Ramsey because Arteta who never had a problem with his positive play at the time has suddenly decided he needs to be far more safety first and introverted in his play.

That would make far more sense than a player who has never found his form after being injured for two months and because the on the pitch injury was quite a nasty one, it got in his head and he’s now more cautious. That and given he’s played every game almost since he’s been back he’s also just running on fumes.

We have been playing in the same safety first system for the entirety of this season, no doubt as a result of us not beating Villa at the end of last season and losing out on the title.

Arteta obviously would have changed out play up to counter this situation and it has resulted in the obsessive, possession based, cautious play we have been watching for the last 26+ games.

So yes, I would say Odegaard is doing what the manager wants, along with the rest of the team.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Spot on.

I see the excuses have already begun appearing, injuries, the red cards, etc.

Yes they have been an absolute rod up the backside this season, but I would argue we have lost out in all those draws rather than the few games we dropped points because of bad officiating.

Those games' results were because we were too cautious and too afraid we might lose. It's not a winning mentality.

So this is why I’m kind of taking the piss with you

Our front three is out, I get what you’re saying about our build up play being too slow etc but it’s academic now. We are playing a very average midfielder as a centre forward that’s how academic it is.

A Kriss Akabusi style Positive Mental Attitude isn’t going to change things.


After the Man City game, we still had two of the front three and only Liverpool scored more goals. Whilst you’ll get no argument from me that we were too slow, too predictable etc. It makes not a fuck of difference now

[KSE Comedy Club]

I’m just wondering how you propose we should go about counter attacking to counter the attack of the other team so to speak when the other team isn’t coming out to attack

Given you started with the film references, we could goad them into attacking us like in the Warriors

“Come out to Plaaaaayy!” :lol:

Anyway nothing what with what you said, Definitely Nothing wrong with what you said. Definitely nothing wrong

Fuuck Rain Man, not seen that in years :lol:

Because I don't agree that every team we play sets up to defend against us in two banks of 5 in their own half.
That is mainly a situation that ends up happening because our style of play makes it the easiest way for any team to defend against us.

We just don't counter attack - ever.
As soon as we might win possession, we start to make a run, maybe get near the 18 yard box, but then it's always either pass it back, pass it sideways, pass it out wide, lay off Raya running up near the half way line....etc.

It is never a direct attack where a player has the balls to take a shot on, or two attackers running alongside each other to do a quick side pass and shoot into an empty net.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We have been playing in the same safety first system for the entirety of this season, no doubt as a result of us not beating Villa at the end of last season and losing out on the title.

Arteta obviously would have changed out play up to counter this situation and it has resulted in the obsessive, possession based, cautious play we have been watching for the last 26+ games.

So yes, I would say Odegaard is doing what the manager wants, along with the rest of the team.

So to confirm not that he’s either carrying a knock or exhausted, out of form or low on confidence. Arteta decided that our biggest creative player was just playing too well?

Because you’ve been a bit sensitive today. I want to confirm that is your explanation

A yes or no will do

[HCZ_Reborn]

Because I don't agree that every team we play sets up to defend against us in two banks of 5 in their own half.
That is mainly a situation that ends up happening because our style of play makes it the easiest way for any team to defend against us.

We just don't counter attack - ever.
As soon as we might win possession, we start to make a run, maybe get near the 18 yard box, but then it's always either pass it back, pass it sideways, pass it out wide, lay off Raya running up near the half way line....etc.

It is never a direct attack where a player has the balls to take a shot on, or two attackers running alongside each other to do a quick side pass and shoot into an empty net.

No you’re right

Man City doesn’t, Liverpool doesn’t, Spurs doesn’t

Chelsea probably won’t

We’ve seen the difference when we played teams that don’t defend deep against us


We thrashed City 5-1, and we thrashed Palace 5-1


Some of those goals…wait for it….came on the counter attack

[KSE Comedy Club]

On a scale of 1-10, how likely is it do you think that I’m going to take a lecture from someone proposing that we can and should play counter attack against teams who play with 11 men behind the ball.

The point is NQ does what he always does when he has no answer, shift the goalposts. I don’t know whether it’s deliberate or alcoholic delirium

For me it seems a bit pointless to be talking specifically about the here and now and in response to my saying I don’t think we have the players to do what you think we should do, to say well why don’t we get those players.

Which becomes a different discussion entirely, if the discussion is why don’t we adapt this turgid football we are playing now when the summer comes by bringing in players that can mix it up, that’s almost a no brainer isn’t it…who would be against that

What I can’t understand is this petulance howling like a dog that’s been kicked in the nuts by people, about how we should be able to score goals if only we magically change up the way we play when a) albeit small there are indications that we’ve already done that b) you can build a house from sand but it’s going out with the tide come the evening.

We won titles playing counter attack. Liverpool are going to win a title by playing counter attack :shrug:

What I don't understand is that these are the same players mostly that did play this way in the second half of last season, but now they are not capable of it?

[KSE Comedy Club]

Cool, so if I choose not to run into a brick wall, it’s because I lacked the courage to believe I could become ethereal and will myself to pass through it

:haha: there is literally no middle ground with you is there!

[HCZ_Reborn]

The only games I can think of where we didn’t at least once try the counter attack when ahead are games like Ipswich who seemed to decide that losing 1-0 was ok, and Brighton where we had almost no attacking players starting the game due to injury and illness

[KSE Comedy Club]

So this is why I’m kind of taking the piss with you

Our front three is out, I get what you’re saying about our build up play being too slow etc but it’s academic now. We are playing a very average midfielder as a centre forward that’s how academic it is.

A Kriss Akabusi style Positive Mental Attitude isn’t going to change things.


After the Man City game, we still had two of the front three and only Liverpool scored more goals. Whilst you’ll get no argument from me that we were too slow, too predictable etc. It makes not a fuck of difference now

I agree, we are fucked this season now, but my worry is we cannot even maintain 2nd place.

[HCZ_Reborn]

:haha: there is literally no middle ground with you is there!

I’ve honestly tried being nice and patient

But if people want to promote a narrative rather than analyse the situation for what it is. I’m going to be sarcastic and off hand. Will I get anywhere doing this? No but I’ve clearly got no where being patient and understanding and at least this way I have more fun

[HCZ_Reborn]

I agree, we are fucked this season now, but my worry is we cannot even maintain 2nd place.

It’s a laudable worry but I’m afraid there’s not much we can do about it

People dont like feeling powerless and helpless to prevent something and they’ll do anything to fight against it. I suspect this is why I’m getting so much resistance.

[HCZ_Reborn]

We won titles playing counter attack. Liverpool are going to win a title by playing counter attack :shrug:

What I don't understand is that these are the same players mostly that did play this way in the second half of last season, but now they are not capable of it?

Because we didn’t open the scoring on the counter, in many of those games we opened the scoring via a set piece. I think it’s 50% that teams have worked out how to defend our set pieces and 50% that we are missing Saka and White who were instrumental in them.

Now if you’re saying to me, we shouldn’t rely on just one way to open up the scoring. Totally agree, or at least I would have before our front three all got injured

[KSE Comedy Club]

So to confirm not that he’s either carrying a knock or exhausted, out of form or low on confidence. Arteta decided that our biggest creative player was just playing too well?

Because you’ve been a bit sensitive today. I want to confirm that is your explanation

A yes or no will do

Sensitive?! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!

I gave a one post tongue in cheek response, I actually couldn't care less :)

All those things you said are probably to an extent, true, I have no doubt he is not in form as it shows.
However, if he was doing hi sown thing and not following the instructions of how Arteta wants the team to function, I very much doubt he would be playing.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The only games I can think of where we didn’t at least once try the counter attack when ahead are games like Ipswich who seemed to decide that losing 1-0 was ok, and Brighton where we had almost no attacking players starting the game due to injury and illness

I have probably seen about 3 games this season where we attempted a full on, proper, from start to finish, counter attack.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I’ve honestly tried being nice and patient

But if people want to promote a narrative rather than analyse the situation for what it is. I’m going to be sarcastic and off hand. Will I get anywhere doing this? No but I’ve clearly got no where being patient and understanding and at least this way I have more fun

Ah well, at least it will get your post count up though, eh :good:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sensitive?! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!

I gave a one post tongue in cheek response, I actually couldn't care less :)

All those things you said are probably to an extent, true, I have no doubt he is not in form as it shows.
However, if he was doing hi sown thing and not following the instructions of how Arteta wants the team to function, I very much doubt he would be playing.

Doubtless he wouldn’t be playing, if we had an alternative to play there

That’s the problem we don’t. And I don’t think it’s reasonable (and I don’t think you do either) to think Arteta has turned into a lunatic and told our most creative player…don’t play so creatively. Honestly what do you see when you watch Odegaard, a player high on confidence or a player looking unsure…pensive….trying simpler things because he doesn’t believe in himself that the more adventurous things will come off?.

I mean for heavens sake he even hesitated slightly when Havertz gave him an open goal against Man City (and Havertz did that because he didn’t have the confidence to take it on himself).

These are players with tired minds and tired bodies, what was once easy for them isn’t coming off now.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ah well, at least it will get your post count up though, eh :good:

Not remotely interested in anything like that. If no one said anything I disagreed with I’d probably never post on the football side of the forum. Because in likelihood someone’s already said something I think is true and probably said it more succinctly

I’ve actually said more than once in the past that I don’t like the style of football we play, but at this moment in time….it’s a bit like saying you don’t like the decorating in the upstairs bathroom when the roof has blown off.

[KSE Comedy Club]

It’s a laudable worry but I’m afraid there’s not much we can do about it

People dont like feeling powerless and helpless to prevent something and they’ll do anything to fight against it. I suspect this is why I’m getting so much resistance.

I would say the resistance is coming at you more because you seem to think we don't have any player capable of doing the basics in football, every team plays one way against us but you seemingly won't acknowledge why that is, you treat everyone on here like they are idiots & you are incapable of having a general discussion without your superiority complex taking over.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I have probably seen about 3 games this season where we attempted a full on, proper, from start to finish, counter attack.

Off the top of my head

The last goal we scored was a counter attacking goal

At least two of the goals we scored against City were on the counter

Then there is Sporting Lisbon, Palace, West Ham, the third goal against Southampton at home.

I think in too many games it’s more been about huffing and puffing against teams who sit deep to take the lead and then having used up so much energy we decide to sit off.

There is certainly no pathological aversion to it, maybe just not the confidence to pull it off

[KSE Comedy Club]

Doubtless he wouldn’t be playing, if we had an alternative to play there

That’s the problem we don’t. And I don’t think it’s reasonable (and I don’t think you do either) to think Arteta has turned into a lunatic and told our most creative player…don’t play so creatively. Honestly what do you see when you watch Odegaard, a player high on confidence or a player looking unsure…pensive….trying simpler things because he doesn’t believe in himself that the more adventurous things will come off?.

I mean for heavens sake he even hesitated slightly when Havertz gave him an open goal against Man City (and Havertz did that because he didn’t have the confidence to take it on himself).

These are players with tired minds and tired bodies, what was once easy for them isn’t coming off now.

Aren't you the same guy who has basically been posting about Arteta being a cold, passive aggressive, egotistical cunt - but he can't be a lunatic as well?

[KSE Comedy Club]

Off the top of my head

The last goal we scored was a counter attacking goal

At least two of the goals we scored against City were on the counter

Then there is Sporting Lisbon, Palace, West Ham, the third goal against Southampton at home.

I think in too many games it’s more been about huffing and puffing against teams who sit deep to take the lead and then having used up so much energy we decide to sit off.

There is certainly no pathological aversion to it, maybe just not the confidence to pull it off

I think the boredom from watching us play has made me black out during parts of the game

[HCZ_Reborn]

I would say the resistance is coming at you more because you seem to think we don't have any player capable of doing the basics in football, every team plays one way against us but you seemingly won't acknowledge why that is, you treat everyone on here like they are idiots & you are incapable of having a general discussion without your superiority complex taking over.

I do people here the respect of believing that they are at least equal in intelligence to myself. If I thought you were all stupid, I wouldn’t bother insulting you because a) it would go over your heads and b) I wouldn’t hold you in contempt for what I regard as specious reasoning.


The vast majority of teams do play one way against us, they would be foolish not to. It’s not a conspiracy, they will play the same way against Liverpool or city. Deny them space and time on the ball and try and get them to overcommit and catch them on the break

The difference is City and Liverpool don’t play with two defensive midfielders, I’ve screamed blue murder about this especially in home games. But we don’t have the luxury of playing two attacking midfielders in central midfield for example now. With Saka out, Nwaneri has to play on the wing

[HCZ_Reborn]

Aren't you the same guy who has basically been posting about Arteta being a cold, passive aggressive, egotistical cunt - but he can't be a lunatic as well?

I think he’s all of those things.


But I don’t think for example he believes the dog on the training ground inhabits the soul of his dead grandad. This is the kind of lunacy we’d be talking for him to be actively encouraging Odegaard to play like that.


But what im hearing is. “It’s ok for you to rant on, but when someone else does it….you’re on them like a fly on shit”


Now if that was your argument, I’d have to say fair enough. But you’d then have to accept most of your current arguments come from letting off steam and frustration rather than rational analysis. I’m past the point of anger and frustration

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think the boredom from watching us play has made me black out during parts of the game

Fair

[Niall_Quinn]

I would say the resistance is coming at you more because you seem to think we don't have any player capable of doing the basics in football, every team plays one way against us but you seemingly won't acknowledge why that is, you treat everyone on here like they are idiots & you are incapable of having a general discussion without your superiority complex taking over.

Sounds like me - LOL, except I don't believe we lack the players to give us something worth watching.

This can be boiled down to an even simpler demand, can't it?

Please, for the love of God! SHOOOT! Or run. Or do something that doesn't have me tearing my eyes out. Ours are the only games I watch where I look at the clock and it's gone backwards. I've often wondered if I could get a week's work done during the first half of one of our games. At least under Wenger he let the players stray a couple of inches from the Way of the Pep. But when you see our lot now and you see that ball played with a bit more directness (on rare occasions) and then watch the recipient stood stock still, back to goal - then Partey runs over and indicates the ball should be played anywhere except to him, then Odegard gets it and runs this way, short pass, return pass, runs that way, short pass, return pass... Then gets tackled by Raya on his way up the pitch.

There's no way in a million years this is the only way we can play, injuries or not. This is almost as bad an excuse as nobody being available in the January window. I'll take the red cards, injuries, lucky Liverpool excuses over the idea our players can't play.

Our manager won't let them. That's the problem.

[Mac76]

Are you still working from the assumption that someone could only disagree with you to be contrary

Are you that conceited that you don’t believe anyone could disagree with your opinions

That’s not rhetorical, I genuinely want to know

nothing to do with any of that, it's just most people might exchange a fewe thoughts or points or indeed contrary ideas, but most people then just think 'whatever' but you just carry on and on and on to make sure you get the last word and then you can tell yoruself it must mean you were right about whatever it was

[Mac76]

:shrug: that’s exactly what happened against West Ham.



just watched it again, Cala's with AW-B all the way but stands off him which gives him the space to cross - exactly what I said

[HCZ_Reborn]

nothing to do with any of that, it's just most people might exchange a fewe thoughts or points or indeed contrary ideas, but most people then just think 'whatever' but you just carry on and on and on to make sure you get the last word and then you can tell yoruself it must mean you were right about whatever it was

You do realise you’re describing yourself just as much as you’re describing me

It really depends who we are arguing with on here. There are people like yourself who I will have endless back and forths with. Just because you might give up before me doesn’t mean you aren’t driven to have the last word when you think you’re right. There are other people where as you say it’s a few exchanges. To put it frankly the length and aggressiveness of the discussion is dependent on whether the person has a big an ego as me. You certainly do, Letters does, NQ does and to a lesser extent so does that 21 Gun salute chap (although he also lacks the stamina)

My point was that the other day you were suggesting that I was disagreeing with you for the sake of it. Nope. Also where my fault lies is that I don’t want to give the impression that I’ve ceded my point of view when I think I’m right.

I don’t need to convince myself I’m right (I already think I am otherwise I wouldn’t make the argument to begin with)

I’ve admitted countless times to that though

[HCZ_Reborn]

just watched it again, Cala's with AW-B all the way but stands off him which gives him the space to cross - exactly what I said

So I’m going to say yes you’re right he is there all the way with AW-B (I can’t deny that it’s there as a fact). I’m thinking of another time in the game where AW-B is motoring away and he’s nowhere and it’s Rice chasing after him. I’m going to say I disagree with you that he stands off him though I think he remains quite tight to him and short of sliding in I don’t think there’s much more he can do.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Sounds like me - LOL, except I don't believe we lack the players to give us something worth watching.

This can be boiled down to an even simpler demand, can't it?

Please, for the love of God! SHOOOT! Or run. Or do something that doesn't have me tearing my eyes out. Ours are the only games I watch where I look at the clock and it's gone backwards. I've often wondered if I could get a week's work done during the first half of one of our games. At least under Wenger he let the players stray a couple of inches from the Way of the Pep. But when you see our lot now and you see that ball played with a bit more directness (on rare occasions) and then watch the recipient stood stock still, back to goal - then Partey runs over and indicates the ball should be played anywhere except to him, then Odegard gets it and runs this way, short pass, return pass, runs that way, short pass, return pass... Then gets tackled by Raya on his way up the pitch.

There's no way in a million years this is the only way we can play, injuries or not. This is almost as bad an excuse as nobody being available in the January window. I'll take the red cards, injuries, lucky Liverpool excuses over the idea our players can't play.

Our manager won't let them. That's the problem.

I agree, these players do know how to do those things you have said, they just seem like they know they will be getting a massive bollocking if they dare try!

[HCZ_Reborn]

I agree, these players do know how to do those things you have said, they just seem like they know they will be getting a massive bollocking if they dare try!

My experience watching us for years is that players will put on an extra pass when they aren’t confident. Havertz against Man City for example squared to Odegaard who had to take a touch for our first goal against City last month

It’s indicative for me of people lacking the confidence in their own ability to put it in the net. Partey apart from anything else loves taking on shots from outside the box and I’ve never had reason to believe he’s been actively discouraged to do so. There is of course a system designed to strangle the life out of opposition and it is rigid, but equally you’ve seen players fairly recently break out and try something individualist. Odegaard stank the place out first half against Ipswich but then decided to go on a couple of solo runs in the second half of that game to open up space, as far as I’m aware he wasn’t bollocked or dropped in the next game for this.

I think Arteta might do that only if in doing so a player played their way into trouble, giving the ball away in a dangerous area, at least unlike Guardiola he won’t try and berate the players on the pitch.

I still very much think a lot of people on here, are doing everything to avoid accepting the fact that our ability to score goals which was far from consistent when we had everyone fit, is now greatly diminished because of what’s available to us.

But again, so there’s no confusion in terms of talking at cross purposes. If it’s argued that we shouldn’t rigidly stick to this system and go for a more direct style of play (I’m not going to say counter attack because most teams are not going to go on the front foot against us) and work on a route one alternative and bring in technically minded footballers. Of course I agree with that, I’ve said as much for long enough

[IBK]

My experience watching us for years is that players will put on an extra pass when they aren’t confident. Havertz against Man City for example squared to Odegaard who had to take a touch for our first goal against City last month

It’s indicative for me of people lacking the confidence in their own ability to put it in the net. Partey apart from anything else loves taking on shots from outside the box and I’ve never had reason to believe he’s been actively discouraged to do so. There is of course a system designed to strangle the life out of opposition and it is rigid, but equally you’ve seen players fairly recently break out and try something individualist. Odegaard stank the place out first half against Ipswich but then decided to go on a couple of solo runs in the second half of that game to open up space, as far as I’m aware he wasn’t bollocked or dropped in the next game for this.

I think Arteta might do that only if in doing so a player played their way into trouble, giving the ball away in a dangerous area, at least unlike Guardiola he won’t try and berate the players on the pitch.

I still very much think a lot of people on here, are doing everything to avoid accepting the fact that our ability to score goals which was far from consistent when we had everyone fit, is now greatly diminished because of what’s available to us.

But again, so there’s no confusion in terms of talking at cross purposes. If it’s argued that we shouldn’t rigidly stick to this system and go for a more direct style of play (I’m not going to say counter attack because most teams are not going to go on the front foot against us) and work on a route one alternative and bring in technically minded footballers. Of course I agree with that, I’ve said as much for long enough

Bingo - highlighted.

Re the confidence issue - its not difficult to see the reason for this. Our system is difficult to play in. As I've said on the other thread, we have too many hybrid players not simply asked to do the thing they are best at. Plus ironically our patient build up style congests the final third and means that the level of technical ability to progress the ball forwards is through the roof. Odegard and Jesus at their best, and Saka because he is world class could manage this. Noone else can. We make it too difficult for ourselves, IMO.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Bingo - highlighted.

Re the confidence issue - its not difficult to see the reason for this. Our system is difficult to play in. As I've said on the other thread, we have too many hybrid players not simply asked to do the thing they are best at. Plus ironically our patient build up style congests the final third and means that the level of technical ability to progress the ball forwards is through the roof. Odegard and Jesus at their best, and Saka because he is world class could manage this. Noone else can. We make it too difficult for ourselves, IMO.

I think the confidence or lack there of has been more present in the last few months. Players like Odegaard etc seems reluctant to take anyone on let alone take shots on. Ultimately as I say the system is far from the top reason we are where we are, in that far more results have been attributable to either the players we lack due to injury or shocking refereeing decisions.


I think in attack we’ve unquestionably become too dependent on Saka, but I think as much as the system he is the player up front who has the most individual skill.

I think not strengthening and in fact making the squad smaller is far more of a contributing factor. It’s not that I don’t think the system should change, it’s that with the injuries we’ve had and the players we’ve overused…..we’d be pretty much in the same position anyway.

There are a couple of games like Fulham and Everton where I think we could have been a lot more ambitious with who we had on the pitch. And as I’ve repeatedly said, with a fully fit squad there’s no need to play two defensive midfielders in most home games….which I think hinders us in terms of getting the ball forward quicker (and then we can talk about passing the ball into space etc, because the space will exist)

[HCZ_Reborn]

I re-watched the games against West Ham and Forest, against West Ham we weren’t great but I’ve seen far worse performances where we’ve won games in the last couple of years. If the option was there I’d drop Odegaard for a few matches because he looks like he’s running on fumes and has barely had a break since he returned from injury (we really wouldn’t be any worse off with Vieira still here stepping in).
Against Forest I thought we played reasonably well, but in neither game were we coughing up loads of chances to the opposing team, and although the attacking build up was a bit slow at times. It felt to me like whether the opposition defence had, had time to get back in shape or not….we weren’t going to make the net bulge. Few players seemed to want to try and take shots on, Trossard worked hard but always seemed to be getting the ball trapped under his feet rather than being able to shoot first time and Merino lacked the movement of Havertz to get himself in place on the occasion when crosses did come in