Arsenal vs Crystal Palace 23.04.2025 - KO 20:00 GMT

[HCZ_Reborn]

The fact that Palace are playing the fa cup semi final at the weekend has proven to be quite fortuitous for us. It means we have six days between this game and the first leg against PSG. It also means that Palace are going to be far more focused on the semi final game against Villa I think it is than us.


Hopefully we should be able to put out a hybrid team but one that is more than capable of getting three points.


Happy stat, we’ve won the last five league games against palace scoring 17 goals along the way

[Marc Overmars]

Can’t envisage too much difficulty here if we apply ourselves correctly. Hard to see Palace being that driven for this given their semi final is only 3 days after.

Another line up like we saw on the weekend should be enough to get the win, while managing the fitness of key players for PSG.

2-0.

[Mac76]

0-3 Sarr hatter

[Niall_Quinn]

Play the kids. They'll probably win anyway.

[Marc Overmars]

City are only 5 points behind us as it stands. We definitely need to get the 3 points in tonight because our next 3 fixtures aren’t games you’d be confident of getting wins from.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Bournemouth, Liverpool, Newcastle and Southampton after tonight

We could literally play the under 18s against Southampton and still be confident of a win

I think we will play our strongest team at Anfield and against Newcastle - 4 points I reckon

Bournemouth? Sandwiched between the two matches against PSG, that one most likely to be dropped points

So that means we’d finish on 76-77 points…back in the 90s that would be enough to win you the title

[Mac76]

Play the kids. They'll probably win anyway.

I think that's probably true given Palace won't take any chances with the FAC semi at the weekend.

I'd love to see NBO given another (and longer) runout, he nearly scored at the weekend and it would be a great momnet in the stadium, I get the sense everyone wants to see him do something

[HCZ_Reborn]

Team to play Crystal Palace: Raya; Timber, Saliba, Kiwior, Lewis-Skelly; Rice, Partey, Odegaard; Sterling, Trossard, Martinelli
Subs: Neto, Tierney, Saka, Zinchenko, Butler-Oyedeji, Gower, Henry-Francis, Kabia, Nwaneri

Bit of a worrying line up (not for tonight that’s easily strong enough to win comfortably) but that Merino hasn’t made the bench suggests he’s picked up a knock. Now he’s not my ideal of a striker, but given how well he played in both legs against Madrid you’d hope he’s fit for PSG.

Benching Saka is common sense (although I’d prefer Nwaneri starting over Sterling)

[Mac76]

Sterling :bow:

Really glad Saka's on the bench

[Marc Overmars]

Definitely would have played Nwaneri. There’s no reason for Sterling to be starting games for us anymore.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Team to play Crystal Palace: Raya; Timber, Saliba, Kiwior, Lewis-Skelly; Rice, Partey, Odegaard; Sterling, Trossard, Martinelli
Subs: Neto, Tierney, Saka, Zinchenko, Butler-Oyedeji, Gower, Henry-Francis, Kabia, Nwaneri

Bit of a worrying line up (not for tonight that’s easily strong enough to win comfortably) but that Merino hasn’t made the bench suggests he’s picked up a knock. Now he’s not my ideal of a striker, but given how well he played in both legs against Madrid you’d hope he’s fit for PSG.

Benching Saka is common sense (although I’d prefer Nwaneri starting over Sterling)

Crystal Palace: Henderson, Munoz, Richards, Lacroix, Guehi, Mitchell, Wharton, Kamada, Devenny, Eze, Nketiah
Subs: Turner, Ward, Sarr, Franca, Mateta, Clyne, Hughes, Esse, Kporha

[HCZ_Reborn]

Daichi Kamada scored a brace against us at the Emirates for Frankfurt in Unai Emery’s last game in charge

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

A lot of our fans want to win the league at home against Spurs. I'm not one of those, I'd quite like you to lose so we're assured of it. No offence. I'd rather just win the thing as soon as possible.

I don't think you will lose anyway. As good as Palace are it should be a relatively straight forward win. 3-1. Etc

[McNamara That Ghost...]

KIWIOR!!!

What a header!!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Martinelli had no intention of giving it to Sterling there. :lol:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Looks like we’re playing half arsed football tonight.

Shame really but I guess the main focus is the champs league now

[KSE Comedy Club]

Exactly what I thought.

Half arsed

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 Eze, what a goal.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Great block from Kiwior.

[Marc Overmars]

We’re just sleep walking through the league now. Honestly feel like 2nd will slip through our fingers if we don’t wake up.

[KSE Comedy Club]

We’re just sleep walking through the league now. Honestly feel like 2nd will slip through our fingers if we don’t wake up.

Yep can’t stand it. I actually find it disgusting tbh.

Yes you are in a big semi final, but you still play your other games to win and keep that momentum going.
Plus make sure we finish 2nd.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

TROSSARD!!! Lovely goal.

[Marc Overmars]

Trossard!!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

27 goals in two seasons I think for Trossard.

That is pretty good tbh.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-1 HT.

[Marc Overmars]

Don’t think we’ve been very good but we’re winning.

Hopefully Palace tire a bit in the second half and conserve themselves for the weekend.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Why is rice not taking FK’s??

[dazthegooner]

Saving him for Europe :unsure:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Sterling hauled off for Saka.

Saka looking to do the double of getting injuries against Palace.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

What has Raya been on today?

[Marc Overmars]

Really could do with a third here.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

What has Raya been on today?

He's clearly mising hogging the limelight...for the wrong reasons of course.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Every stinker he thought about dropping this season has been saved for this one game, hopefully.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

We're definitely losing the Xg battle today :(

[KSE Comedy Club]

That is no way offside ffs

and the ball never went out of play

[Marc Overmars]

Funny how they get that ball being out of play right but couldn’t for the ones we were screwed over with last year.

[dazthegooner]

Good job we've semi-automation heh could still be checking....

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Funny how they get that ball being out of play right but couldn’t for the ones we were screwed over with last year.

They didn't. They thought it was offside and when that failed they checked plan B.

TBH, I felt the ball was out of play too, but seen a lot of teams escape with that this season.

[Marc Overmars]

Good save to deny Saka

[McNamara That Ghost...]

MLS bodies Mateta. :lol:

[KSE Comedy Club]

We are fucking clowns

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-2 Mateta, what a goal.

[Marc Overmars]

Mateta 2-2

Total fuck up

[Marc Overmars]

Dozy as fuck from Saliba. Again.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Consistent brain farts like this is why I keep saying Gabriel is the better defender.

Saliba might be a physical phenomenon, but he has got a lot to learn about concentration in key moments.

[Niall_Quinn]

Fucking obvious. This has been a disgraceful non-performance and Raya has been shite all game, and for the past few weeks in fairness. His fucking about at the back will be meat and drink for PSG. A lazy, undisciplined outing that serves no purpose other than to break momentum. Odegard has been awful over the last couple of games too. His fifty touches every time with zero end product. These are such easy to fix problems. We now also know Partey is being told to play shit football at 1mph.

[KSE Comedy Club]

It was just so unnecessary.

Trying to pass the ball back and forth 10 times when all you need to do is clear it.

Fucking brainless as fuck

[Niall_Quinn]

I can't fucking stand it when games are treated with such little seriousness. It's totally unprofessional. A lot easier to let the standard drop than pick it up again.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I am not going to even get started on Arteta...he watched the team sleepwalk through the whole match and felt no need to alter his game plan till its too late as usual.

[Niall_Quinn]

It was just so unnecessary.

Trying to pass the ball back and forth 10 times when all you need to do is clear it.

Fucking brainless as fuck

Raya is an accident not just waiting to happen, but is guaranteed. His distribution is comical.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I can't fucking stand it when games are treated with such little seriousness. It's totally unprofessional. A lot easier to let the standard drop than pick it up again.

You need to tell that to the coach.

[Marc Overmars]

I have no doubt the performance levels will be better for PSG but I am incredibly pissed off with how we’ve just thrown away so many points.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Fucking obvious. This has been a disgraceful non-performance and Raya has been shite all game, and for the past few weeks in fairness. His fucking about at the back will be meat and drink for PSG. A lazy, undisciplined outing that serves no purpose other than to break momentum. Odegard has been awful over the last couple of games too. His fifty touches every time with zero end product. These are such easy to fix problems. We now also know Partey is being told to play shit football at 1mph.
This 100%

We gave up on the league weeks ago, just doing the bare minimum to stay 2nd.
Fucking disgraceful in my book.

It’s like they’ve adopted the ‘bigger fish to fry attitude’ - well cut that shit out you arseholes, you’ve won nothing yet!

[KSE Comedy Club]

I can't fucking stand it when games are treated with such little seriousness. It's totally unprofessional. A lot easier to let the standard drop than pick it up again.

Playing Sterling who is clearly dead was a disgrace as well. Nwaneri was sat there and could do with the minutes

[Niall_Quinn]

I am not going to even get started on Arteta...he watched the team sleepwalk through the whole match and felt no need to alter his game plan till its too late as usual.

Pure fucking arrogance and disrespect to the fans. Liverpool about to win a title because we can't be bothered to turn up. Doing the bare minimum to get us to the big money games, total disrespect for a game they are all still getting paid fortunes for, out of the fans' pockets.

[Niall_Quinn]

And why is Martinelli still on the pitch? We need him to be up and down the field for 100 mins next week. Why is Saka being protected when Martinelli is being rung to death?

[Marc Overmars]

This 100%

We gave up on the league weeks ago, just doing the bare minimum to stay 2nd.
Fucking disgraceful in my book.

It’s like they’ve adopted the ‘bigger fish to fry attitude’ - well cut that shit out you arseholes, you’ve won nothing yet!

We’re not even doing the bare minimum anymore. At this rate we’ll be third or even lower.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I have no doubt the performance levels will be better for PSG but I am incredibly pissed off with how we’ve just thrown away so many points.

This is the worst season since Covid.

Easiest title win for pool in years.

Just look at our points tally, we’re about 30 off where we finished last season and no where near reaching that.
It’s like the end of the season now means fuck all

[KSE Comedy Club]

We’re not even doing the bare minimum anymore. At this rate we’ll be third or even lower.

That’s what worries me, we have plenty of rest days from now too so they damn well should have been trying harder tonight

[Niall_Quinn]

Well at least Alan Smith is having a good night. Give MOTM to a bloke who has been on for 5 minutes. What a knobhead!

[KSE Comedy Club]

Well at least Alan Smith is having a good night. Give MOTM to a bloke who has been on for 5 minutes. What a knobhead!

Well let’s face it, none of our players were going to get it - they’ve been embarrassing

[Mac76]

Saliba :doh:

Momentum :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-2 FT.

Another fucking draw.

I can't understand why players just want to toss away momentum.

Only got themselves to blame if they can't get up to the levels required for PSG.

[Marc Overmars]

FT 2-2

Sick of this league campaign. Was at peace with it when 2nd looked to be secured but now we will have to scrap for that. Hope for this teams sake that we reach the CL final because this is shaping up to be a dire end to the season.

[Niall_Quinn]

FT and they can all go and fuck themselves for that disgrace. We're winning nothing this season, not a prayer. When you can go out at your own place with that sort of attitude while dreaming about Euro cup wins, it's just that, a dream - not an ounce of reality present. Disgusted with that - even after the Madrid matches - still this shit that has plagued the club for decades. What will it actually take - how many thousands a week - to get these players to give a shit?

[HCZ_Reborn]

2-2 FT.

Another fucking draw.

I can't understand why players just want to toss away momentum.

Only got themselves to blame if they can't up to the levels required for PSG.

I don’t think they’ve chosen to do it. From what I’ve seen this was no different to the game at Selhurst Park where our defending was also pretty iffy. The difference is we don’t have the attacking players that we did back in December. I think equally the expectation was that Palace wouldn’t give a shit about this game.

We never in a million years deserved to win this game, Saliba brain fart or no…we were lucky not to lose tbh.

[Niall_Quinn]

Like I said - play the fucking kids! At least they'd go out and make a game of it.

[Marc Overmars]

Will have to win that game against Bournemouth now. A game we will have no interest in.

These draws have killed us, it’s like death by a thousand cuts.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I don’t think they’ve chosen to do it. From what I’ve seen this was no different to the game at Selhurst Park where our defending was also pretty iffy. The difference is we don’t have the attacking players that we did back in December. I think equally the expectation was that Palace wouldn’t give a shit about this game.

We never in a million years deserved to win this game, Saliba brain fart or no…we were lucky not to lose tbh.

I'm not sure if you'e disagreeing with me or not.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don’t think they’ve chosen to do it. From what I’ve seen this was no different to the game at Selhurst Park where our defending was also pretty iffy. The difference is we don’t have the attacking players that we did back in December. I think equally the expectation was that Palace wouldn’t give a shit about this game.

We never in a million years deserved to win this game, Saliba brain fart or no…we were lucky not to lose tbh.

If Raya is going to roll 99% of everything out to the closest man then the chances of that brain fart skyrocket. He almost fucked us up with one of his random passes a few minutes earlier - Partey saved his lazy arse. Then after that he just kicked the fucking ball into touch! He might be a good shot stopper but he's a total liability in all other respects.

[HCZ_Reborn]

FT and they can all go and fuck themselves for that disgrace. We're winning nothing this season, not a prayer. When you can go out at your own place with that sort of attitude while dreaming about Euro cup wins, it's just that, a dream - not an ounce of reality present. Disgusted with that - even after the Madrid matches - still this shit that has plagued the club for decades. What will it actually take - how many thousands a week - to get these players to give a shit?

Exactly didn’t see Liverpool in 2005 or Chelsea in 2021 perform like that in the league when they had virtually nothing to play for.

Except that’s exactly what did happen. Don’t get me wrong it’s frustrating, but until we go down the pathway of replacing players brains with artificial neural nets, it happens. The thing is, on top of that I think Palace from the moment they went 1-0 down were better than us….really they are the ones that should be kicking themselves for not winning a game they should have based on play.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'm not sure if you'e disagreeing with me or not.

I agree with your frustration but I don’t think the players chose to throw away momentum. Palace were better than us tonight, in terms of strength, aggression and yes desire. We were very very lucky to draw.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Pure fucking arrogance and disrespect to the fans. Liverpool about to win a title because we can't be bothered to turn up. Doing the bare minimum to get us to the big money games, total disrespect for a game they are all still getting paid fortunes for, out of the fans' pockets.

I'm listening to commentary by Andy Townsend and he described our performance as bizarre, not sure there is a better word.

We led the game twice, at home, and throughout the whole game it was clear as day that Palace were creating quality chance after chance and all we wanted to was bore everyone to sleep.

When the season is properly analysed, it will be clear that it this arrogance Arteta has of consistently underestimating mid table teams that killed any chance of us winning the league....as most of our games in the league aren't going to be against the Citehs and Liverpools...... honestly the stupidity of walking straight into a wall game after game is so fucking infuriating.

Anyway, whats done is done.

Like I said on another thread, I'm glad the first leg against PSG is at home as I expect that to be tougher leg seeing the kind of performance the team has gotten use to delivering in front of their paying fans. This result will only make them jittery and more nervous.

I just hope, whatever we get, we'll have a strong team able to salvage something in the 2nd leg.

[Marc Overmars]

Would love to know how many points we’ve dropped from winning positions because I can’t quite remember a season like this in terms of draws.

[Letters]

FT 2-2

Sick of this league campaign. Was at peace with it when 2nd looked to be secured but now we will have to scrap for that
Why do you care about that?
Obviously I’d rather we finished 2nd than didn’t, but the 2nd Place Trophy doesn’t exist any more than the Top 4 one does.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I agree with your frustration but I don’t think the players chose to throw away momentum. Palace were better than us tonight, in terms of strength, aggression and yes desire. We were very very lucky to draw.

You do that by how you treat the game and apply yourself. I remember you not finding it acceptable in any way on us drawing to Everton.

I'm the same here with Palace being the much better side when really we're in no different a situation to them in relative terms.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Why do you care about that?
Obviously I’d rather we finished 2nd than didn’t, but the 2nd Place Trophy doesn’t exist any more than the Top 4 one does.

I disagree, finishing third or worse will feel like and really is, a massive regression in the league.

Absolutely want us to finish 2nd.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'm listening to commentary by Andy Townsend and he described our performance as bizarre, not sure there is a better word.

We led the game twice, at home, and throughout the whole game it was clear as day that Palace were creating quality chance after chance and all we wanted to was bore everyone to sleep.

When the season is properly analysed, it will be clear that it this arrogance Arteta has of consistently underestimating mid table teams that killed any chance of us winning the league....as most of our games in the league aren't going to be against the Citehs and Liverpools...... honestly the stupidity of walking straight into a wall game after game is so fucking infuriating.

Anyway, whats done is done.

Like I said on another thread, I'm glad the first leg against PSG is at home as I expect that to be tougher leg seeing the kind of performance the team has gotten use to delivering in front of their paying fans. This result will only make them jittery and more nervous.

I just hope, whatever we get, we'll have a strong team able to salvage something in the 2nd leg.

Honestly, have we got to April with people still thinking that we simply choose not to play better against mid table teams who allow us to dominate possession.

No we haven’t, I’m pretty sure you acknowledged yourself that we’d rather play Barcelona than Inter in the final because of how it would suit us better.

Don’t get me wrong I think we need not just strikers but better attacking midfielders to combat this, but it’s not a mindset issue. It’s a we don’t have the attacking players to break teams down unless they give us space issue

[Marc Overmars]

Why do you care about that?
Obviously I’d rather we finished 2nd than didn’t, but the 2nd Place Trophy doesn’t exist any more than the Top 4 one does.

I know 2nd-5th doesn’t matter at this stage but fact there is now jeopardy with the position we’ve held all season is something I find embarrassing.

[Marc Overmars]

I disagree, finishing third or worse will feel like and really is, a massive regression in the league.

Absolutely want us to finish 2nd.

Agreed. It already is a huge regression in terms of wins and points gained compared to last year but to let 2nd slip now would be quite shit. Everton, Brentford, Palace, they all had fuck all to play for like us but we still threw all those points away. It stinks.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You do that by how you treat the game and apply yourself. I remember you not finding it acceptable in any way on us drawing to Everton.

I'm the same here with Palace being the much better side when really we're in no different a situation to them in relative terms.

I think we are talking at cross purposes

I completely get your frustration. I just not sure I agree with the idea that the players consciously chose to play the way they did. I think to have half an eye on a competition we can win is human nature and there’s not a team in the world that doesn’t do it. As I said to NQ you’ve only to look at what shite Liverpool and Chelsea were putting in, in the league prior to their respective champions league finals in 2005, and 2012 and 2021.

Is it acceptable? No I agree with you, I want us to finish 2nd. But ultimately a player will think “do I want to risk injury”. It’s frustrating as fuck…I think we needed to win tonight, I’m sick of draws. But I hate defeats even more, and tonight we should have lost

[Letters]

I disagree, finishing third or worse will feel like and really is, a massive regression in the league.

Absolutely want us to finish 2nd.

I want us to as well but there has already been regression.
Last season we pushed City all the way to the last day. We made them win it.
This year we didn’t even push Liverpool, they all but wrapped up the title before February was out.
The only thing that can rescue this season now is a CL win which my head says won’t happen which means this will be a very forgettable last season.
Next year is Arteta’s last chance to win a big trophy

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I don’t think they’ve chosen to do it. From what I’ve seen this was no different to the game at Selhurst Park where our defending was also pretty iffy. The difference is we don’t have the attacking players that we did back in December. I think equally the expectation was that Palace wouldn’t give a shit about this game.

We never in a million years deserved to win this game, Saliba brain fart or no…we were lucky not to lose tbh.

There is definitely no argument about who deserved to win the game, obviously there was clearly only one team that gave a shit today and they rightly got something out of it.

However, I don't think we can blame not having a striker today for drawing a game that we led fortuitously TWICE.....and lets not forget we didn't even create enough clear cut chances that would feed anyone, FFS we probably created less than a quarter of the chances we created in our previous game.

Our attitude in this game stunk up the place once we took the lead, and once we analyse our season, we'll see the same pattern, a striker is not going to solve hubris related issues....

Also there was absolutely no need for such an attitude as we needed the win more than Palace did, as we need to win to ensure we even make it to the CL next year.

Again I'm repeating, there is no way we didn't need the win in this game more than Palace, and every efffing player out their knew it, or at least they were suppose to know that. If they didn't, then WTF do we have a manager for.

Honestly, like I said before, a part of me wonders if winning the CL this year wont be us signing our death warrant and sticking with this clown for longer than we need to.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think we are talking at cross purposes

I completely get your frustration. I just not sure I agree with the idea that the players consciously chose to play the way they did. I think to have half an eye on a competition we can win is human nature and there’s not a team in the world that doesn’t do it. As I said to NQ you’ve only to look at what shite Liverpool and Chelsea were putting in, in the league prior to their respective champions league finals in 2005, and 2012 and 2021.

Is it acceptable? No I agree with you, I want us to finish 2nd. But ultimately a player will think “do I want to risk injury”. It’s frustrating as fuck…I think we needed to win tonight, I’m sick of draws. But I hate defeats even more, and tonight we should have lost

I care about what works for us and I have never seen from us it ever work for us just deciding to turn the tap on and off when we perform and when we don't.

You say it's not a choice but how can that be when they play like that tonight and might, well hopefully do play differently against PSG.

It puts in a pin in momentum after two huge results and honestly I'll be amazed if we can get the required levels on Tuesday.

Players are fucking idiots for going in half-arsed.

[Niall_Quinn]

Honestly, have we got to April with people still thinking that we simply choose not to play better against mid table teams who allow us to dominate possession.

No we haven’t, I’m pretty sure you acknowledged yourself that we’d rather play Barcelona than Inter in the final because of how it would suit us better.

Don’t get me wrong I think we need not just strikers but better attacking midfielders to combat this, but it’s not a mindset issue. It’s a we don’t have the attacking players to break teams down unless they give us space issue

In the closing minutes Martinelli decides to take his man on down the line, gets the cross in, Saka forces a brilliant save. That's how it has ALWAYS been done against teams that park the bus. There's no mystery, you get it wide, get the cross in, take 2 or 3 for the 20 chances. You don't need to be a coach or a tactics maestro to figure it out.

Barcelona fucked up football by convincing people their bullshit patterball was some sort of art form rather than the boredom exemplified. Barca-shitty-lona, the most gifted and utterly boring team to play the game in living memory. Wenger saw it and immediately fell in love so we got fucked up too, transformed from the actual artform of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires, Vieira and co - into the Fabregas, Hleb, Ozil snoozefest. Every season because slumbertime interrupted maybe 10-20 times over the whole course by tose rare moments where the impossible intricacy somehow resulted in a goal. van Persie broke the tedium by reverting to proper football, then fucked off when he realised we weren't a serious football club but more of a vanity project.

Unfortunately Arteta buys into every last ounce of Pep's bullshit. And you saw Pep's bullshit completely exposed once his dancing and prancing primadonna mercenaries got a bit too old and started picking up the injuries.

It's all hype - these "great" managers that have led the European game into the stagnation we have now, where two teams can literally stare across the pitch at each other and tap it left, right, left, right. Yeah, you can bore the opposition to death with retention stats and yards covered sideways, and effectively park the bus yourself (which is Pep's dirty little secret in his "beautiful" game) and sure, if you spend a billion on the squad it even works. But it's not football. That shit we saw tonight is not football, it's something else and there's no excuse for it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why do you care about that?
Obviously I’d rather we finished 2nd than didn’t, but the 2nd Place Trophy doesn’t exist any more than the Top 4 one does.

What? So let's get 5th then! That qualifies us for the big money next year, and we can do even less. Maybe not even turn up? Just have the league award the points in our absence? If there's no difference between 2nd and 3rd (which implies there's no difference in winning and losing) then let's call it a day now. And if it looks like we're going to drop out of the top 5, get the boys together and stick them on a caoch to the match - eek out the draws we need to win that 5th spot on goal difference. Fans might not like it - but fuck them.

[HCZ_Reborn]

There is definitely no argument about who deserved to win the game, obviously there was clearly only one team that gave a shit today and they rightly got something out of it.

However, I don't think we can blame not having a striker today for drawing a game that we led fortuitously TWICE.....and lets not forget we didn't even create enough clear cut chances that would feed anyone, FFS we probably created less than a quarter of the chances we created in our previous game.

Our attitude in this game stunk up the place once we took the lead, and once we analyse our season, we'll see the same pattern, a striker is not going to solve hubris related issues....

Also there was absolutely no need for such an attitude as we needed the win more than Palace did, as we need to win to ensure we even make it to the CL next year.

Again I'm repeating, there is no way we didn't need the win in this game more than Palace, and every efffing player out their knew it, or at least they were suppose to know that. If they didn't, then WTF do we have a manager for.

Honestly, like I said before, a part of me wonders if winning the CL this year wont be us signing our death warrant and sticking with this clown for longer than we need to.

I’m honestly confused, what is it you’re angry with that we didn’t defend out the lead properly or that we weren’t better going forward.

I think we were poor because Palace made us poor, we struggled to break them down and we struggled to deal with their aggression going forward. Do I think in the back of our minds that certain players might have been more reserved because they are thinking about the European cup, yeah because that’s human nature are you going to risk everything if you think you could get injured by getting into 50/50s. Of course you can argue that Palace didn’t have that mindset but I’d say they are just playing the same way they’ve played all season…they are a high intensity team…we aren’t.

I’m frustrated with tonight, but I don’t think there was any conscious desire to play the way we did. And given take away Ipswich we’ve scored an average of a goal a game since losing Havertz, probably not the worst decision in the world to soak up pressure and try and hold onto what you’ve got.

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m honestly confused, what is it you’re angry with that we didn’t defend out the lead properly or that we weren’t better going forward.

I think we were poor because Palace made us poor, we struggled to break them down and we struggled to deal with their aggression going forward. Do I think in the back of our minds that certain players might have been more reserved because they are thinking about the European cup, yeah because that’s human nature are you going to risk everything if you think you could get injured by getting into 50/50s. Of course you can argue that Palace didn’t have that mindset but I’d say they are just playing the same way they’ve played all season…they are a high intensity team…we aren’t.

I’m frustrated with tonight, but I don’t think there was any conscious desire to play the way we did. And given take away Ipswich we’ve scored an average of a goal a game since losing Havertz, probably not the worst decision in the world to soak up pressure and try and hold onto what you’ve got.

So you can't see the difference in Partey's play tonight and how he played in the 2 Euro ties? You think he was maybe tired tonight so literally had to stand still on the spot with the ball at his feet while everyone else stood around looking at him? Then backpass, sideways, sideways, backpass, back to that utter fuckhead Raya? You can't see the difference? Genuinely?

[HCZ_Reborn]

In the closing minutes Martinelli decides to take his man on down the line, gets the cross in, Saka forces a brilliant save. That's how it has ALWAYS been done against teams that park the bus. There's no mystery, you get it wide, get the cross in, take 2 or 3 for the 20 chances. You don't need to be a coach or a tactics maestro to figure it out.

Barcelona fucked up football by convincing people their bullshit patterball was some sort of art form rather than the boredom exemplified. Barca-shitty-lona, the most gifted and utterly boring team to play the game in living memory. Wenger saw it and immediately fell in love so we got fucked up too, transformed from the actual artform of Bergkamp, Henry, Pires, Vieira and co - into the Fabregas, Hleb, Ozil snoozefest. Every season because slumbertime interrupted maybe 10-20 times over the whole course by tose rare moments where the impossible intricacy somehow resulted in a goal. van Persie broke the tedium by reverting to proper football, then fucked off when he realised we weren't a serious football club but more of a vanity project.

Unfortunately Arteta buys into every last ounce of Pep's bullshit. And you saw Pep's bullshit completely exposed once his dancing and prancing primadonna mercenaries got a bit too old and started picking up the injuries.

It's all hype - these "great" managers that have led the European game into the stagnation we have now, where two teams can literally stare across the pitch at each other and tap it left, right, left, right. Yeah, you can bore the opposition to death with retention stats and yards covered sideways, and effectively park the bus yourself (which is Pep's dirty little secret in his "beautiful" game) and sure, if you spend a billion on the squad it even works. But it's not football. That shit we saw tonight is not football, it's something else and there's no excuse for it.

You’ve heard the term verbal diarrhoea. You have verbal constipation. Just reading what you’ve written makes my eyes feel like they need fibre to allow the words to pass into my brain.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Honestly, have we got to April with people still thinking that we simply choose not to play better against mid table teams who allow us to dominate possession.

No we haven’t, I’m pretty sure you acknowledged yourself that we’d rather play Barcelona than Inter in the final because of how it would suit us better.

Don’t get me wrong I think we need not just strikers but better attacking midfielders to combat this, but it’s not a mindset issue. It’s a we don’t have the attacking players to break teams down unless they give us space issue

I'm going to disagree with you on this one HCZ...we could have easily brushed of a side that has shifted 10 goals in their last 2 away games if we gave a shit and played to actually out score them at home.

Let me simplify what I'm saying , we lost this game because we scored early and instantly Arteta was satisfied thinking he'd strangle the game out and win.

If they'd scored first or things didn't pan out the way Arteta imagined (0-0 @60 mins), he would have approached the game differently earlier and we would have won this.

What happened today is part of the pattern which has meant we keep dropping points to teams everyone expects us to beat as we take our eye off of scoring goal after goal, but try to suffocate play when there is absolutely no need to, especially to a side that shipped 10 goals in their last 2 games and has a semifinal on Saturday.

I'm sorry my responses are coming late but I'm to upset to type and now have a banging headache after what I just witnessed.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I’m honestly confused, what is it you’re angry with that we didn’t defend out the lead properly or that we weren’t better going forward.

I think we were poor because Palace made us poor, we struggled to break them down and we struggled to deal with their aggression going forward. Do I think in the back of our minds that certain players might have been more reserved because they are thinking about the European cup, yeah because that’s human nature are you going to risk everything if you think you could get injured by getting into 50/50s. Of course you can argue that Palace didn’t have that mindset but I’d say they are just playing the same way they’ve played all season…they are a high intensity team…we aren’t.

I’m frustrated with tonight, but I don’t think there was any conscious desire to play the way we did. And given take away Ipswich we’ve scored an average of a goal a game since losing Havertz, probably not the worst decision in the world to soak up pressure and try and hold onto what you’ve got.

Angry that we chose to defend our lucky lead instead of improving our play and trying to beat them 5-1.

Thats the scoreline Arteta (or any decent coach) should have been gunning for once they'd assessed their recent away form and the fact that this game meant NOTHING to Palace compared to the semifinal they've got this weekend.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So you can't see the difference in Partey's play tonight and how he played in the 2 Euro ties? You think he was maybe tired tonight so literally had to stand still on the spot with the ball at his feet while everyone else stood around looking at him? Then backpass, sideways, sideways, backpass, back to that utter fuckhead Raya? You can't see the difference? Genuinely?

Just as you can’t see the difference between a game where your opponent has most of the ball and you are soaking up the pressure and then you will have more space to play in when you get the ball back, and playing against a team that will give the ball to their opponents but has proven that it will play aggressively if you misplace a pass.

The difference where you will bust a lung to win the ball back against Real compared to what in many ways is a rubber stamp against Palace, where in the back of your mind you think if I give the ball away and assert myself to get it back I could pull up with a hammy issue. You have all that kind of shit running through your head and it will mess with your thinking. If we were in a title chase no game is less important than the next…but we aren’t

[HCZ_Reborn]

Angry that we chose to defend our lucky lead instead of improving our play and trying to beat them 5-1.

Thats the scoreline Arteta (or any decent coach) should have been gunning for once they'd assessed their recent away form and the fact that this game mean NOTHING to Palace compared to the semifinal they've got this weekend.

You can’t have a team with no strikers and expect to beat anyone 5-1. I’m sorry but that’s silly. You and I both know that we don’t have prolific attacking players currently. You can maybe duff up an Ipswich side resigned to relegation and even then you need a man advantage to do so.

[Niall_Quinn]

You’ve heard the term verbal diarrhoea. You have verbal constipation. Just reading what you’ve written makes my eyes feel like they need fibre to allow the words to pass into my brain.

WTF?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'm going to disagree with you on this one HCZ...we could have easily brushed of a side that has shifted 10 goals in their last 2 away games if we gave a shit and played to actually out score them at home.

Let me simplify what I'm saying , we lost this game because we scored early and instantly Arteta was satisfied thinking he'd strangle the game out and win.

If they'd scored first or things didn't pan out the way Arteta imagined (0-0 @60 mins), he would have approached the game differently earlier and we would have won this.

What happened today is part of the pattern which has meant we keep dropping points to teams everyone expects us to beat as we take our eye off of scoring goal after goal, but try to suffocate play when there is absolutely no need to, especially to a side that shipped 10 goals in their last 2 games and has a semifinal on Saturday.

I'm sorry my responses are coming late but I'm to upset to type and now have a banging headache after what I just witnessed.

They lost those games to Newcastle and Man City away who have strikers and attacking players in form

We have shown time and time again that we are vulnerable to the counter attack at home. Therefore we decided to soak up the pressure, but Palace did well to stop us getting forward quickly when we did clear our lines…and despite controlling possession we were under the cosh again.

The reason we are vulnerable to the counter is because we have to push up more to create more chances because we don’t have clinical players.

We often concede goals that come about from misplacing a pass in attacking areas…this is what happened against Brentford

[HCZ_Reborn]

WTF?

Exactly my reaction when faced with one of your tirades.

I thought I was bad with condensed paragraphs

[Niall_Quinn]

Just as you can’t see the difference between a game where your opponent has most of the ball and you are soaking up the pressure and then you will have more space to play in when you get the ball back, and playing against a team that will give the ball to their opponents but has proven that it will play aggressively if you misplace a pass.

The difference where you will bust a lung to win the ball back against Real compared to what in many ways is a rubber stamp against Palace, where in the back of your mind you think if I give the ball away and assert myself to get it back I could pull up with a hammy issue. You have all that kind of shit running through your head and it will mess with your thinking. If we were in a title chase no game is less important than the next…but we aren’t

I said there's a big difference between Partey standing around with his mates looking on, compared to how he played in Europe. So you say, well, that's understandable because he didn't want to scream around the pitch today at 100% risking injury. Meaning there's nothing in-between? But we both know you're doing this on purpose to try to eek out some point on the back of the most extreme interpretation of what I said.

[Niall_Quinn]

Exactly my reaction when faced with one of your tirades.

I thought I was bad with condensed paragraphs

Yeah but I noticed you didn't respond to my point about the claim you have been making all season, that we can't break down teams who pack the defence. I gave you direct evidence of us doing just that in this game. And mentioned it has been the long established way to break down defensive units, all through the different eras of the game. So you said - shit post, change the subject. I get it.

[Marc Overmars]

My frustration comes from the fact that despite weak options up front, we are still doing enough to find ourselves in winning positions. Some of these draws could so easily have been wins with a bit more care.

The reality about this season will only sink in if/when PSG send us packing.

Feel like Arteta will find himself under huge pressure unless by some miracle we win the CL.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah but I noticed you didn't respond to my point about the claim you have been making all season, that we can't break down teams who pack the defence. I gave you direct evidence of us doing just that in this game. And mentioned it has been the long established way to break down defensive units, all through the different eras of the game. So you said - shit post, change the subject. I get it.

I’m not changing the subject I’m just stating that your posts are structured in a way that make them impossible to take in. You said something about putting more crosses in as if somehow we a) have a traditional centre forward to get on the end of them that b) most premier league defences wouldn’t gobble them up all day. If you’re arguing that we should put in more crosses fine, but it’s not the base metal into gold solution, it’s just alternating one form of struggling to break teams down with another.

Then you went on your usual uncontrolled rant which I think could be summed up as if you don’t see things the way I do, you’ve been brainwashed into believing Pep ball is the way forward.

You can go direct or route one if you’ve got a player that can hold up the ball under pressure or a big lump. We don’t….so yeah sure we can do that but ultimately it’s no bigger guarantee of success than what we are doing at the moment.

Do you think it’s just a coincidence that after 24 games we had scored 49 goals, and ten games later where for all of them we’ve been without a recognised striker and for many of them with Trossard and a teenager as our only competent attacking players we managed 63 goals (14 goals in ten games, and 4 of those came against an Ipswich side that’s given up)

It would make far more sense to me to criticise the lack of concentration that led to us conceding two goals. It’s a more realistic appraisal anyhow

[Niall_Quinn]

You can’t have a team with no strikers and expect to beat anyone 5-1. I’m sorry but that’s silly. You and I both know that we don’t have prolific attacking players currently. You can maybe duff up an Ipswich side resigned to relegation and even then you need a man advantage to do so.

But we can beat City and Madrid 5-1 with no striker, apparently. We do have SOME attacking players. Third highest scorers in the league, one behind City. Scored same amount of goals as PSG in Euros so far - only one fewer than Dortmund and Munich who each played 2 games more. Effectively tied second most attacking team in the tournament.

Are you CERTAIN we don't have an attacking threat? The stats, and indeed reality, seem to say the exact opposite.

But I'm sure you are right. Entirely unrealistic for us to come a way with a win at home against Palace, give our lack of firepower.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I said there's a big difference between Partey standing around with his mates looking on, compared to how he played in Europe. So you say, well, that's understandable because he didn't want to scream around the pitch today at 100% risking injury. Meaning there's nothing in-between? But we both know you're doing this on purpose to try to eek out some point on the back of the most extreme interpretation of what I said.

No one but no one needs to find an extreme interpretation of anything you say

Apart from anything else. I’m not even sure it’s possible at times

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m not changing the subject I’m just stating that your posts are structured in a way that make them impossible to take in. You said something about putting more crosses in as if somehow we a) have a traditional centre forward to get on the end of them that b) most premier league defences wouldn’t gobble them up all day. If you’re arguing that we should put in more crosses fine, but it’s not the base metal into gold solution, it’s just alternating one form of struggling to break teams down with another.

Then you went on your usual uncontrolled rant which I think could be summed up as if you don’t see things the way I do, you’ve been brainwashed into believing Pep ball is the way forward.

You can go direct or route one if you’ve got a player that can hold up the ball under pressure or a big lump. We don’t….so yeah sure we can do that but ultimately it’s no bigger guarantee of success than what we are doing at the moment.

Do you think it’s just a coincidence that after 24 games we had scored 49 goals, and ten games later where for all of them we’ve been without a recognised striker and for many of them with Trossard and a teenager as our only competent attacking players we managed 63 goals (14 goals in ten games, and 4 of those came against an Ipswich side that’s given up)

It would make far more sense to me to criticise the lack of concentration that led to us conceding two goals. It’s a more realistic appraisal anyhow

So many diversions, all relying on the main issue being missed. We OPTED to play well below the levels we are capable of today. It was obviously a conscious decision. Certainly, as a result of choosing to do that, we dropped points. But that doesn't dismiss the choice to settle for a lower level of commitment to a game the club obviously deemed unimportant. That's been my complaint from the start - it's entirely unacceptable and highly disrespectful to the fans. If you disagree and find it acceptable for us to play like that, fine. But spare all the other BS about us not having the capacity to get the result today.

[Niall_Quinn]

No one but no one needs to find an extreme interpretation of anything you say

Apart from anything else. I’m not even sure it’s possible at times

No answer there again.

[HCZ_Reborn]

But we can beat City and Madrid 5-1 with no striker, apparently. We do have SOME attacking players. Third highest scorers in the league, one behind City. Scored same amount of goals as PSG in Euros so far - only one fewer than Dortmund and Munich who each played 2 games more. Effectively tied second most attacking team in the tournament.

Are you CERTAIN we don't have an attacking threat? The stats, and indeed reality, seem to say the exact opposite.

But I'm sure you are right. Entirely unrealistic for us to come a way with a win at home against Palace, give our lack of firepower.

I’m not Letters, I’m not getting into circular arguments with you forever

Nor am I going to do what you do and accuse you of wilfully misunderstanding. But do you think Real Madrid decided to create fuck all against us at home? Or do you think because we know how devastating they can be in attack if given the chance to launch a quick break we gave up possession to them which in turn allowed us to exploit space when we won the ball.

We aren’t having to break teams like Real Madrid down , the space is already there.

[HCZ_Reborn]

So many diversions, all relying on the main issue being missed. We OPTED to play well below the levels we are capable of today. It was obviously a conscious decision. Certainly, as a result of choosing to do that, we dropped points. But that doesn't dismiss the choice to settle for a lower level of commitment to a game the club obviously deemed unimportant. That's been my complaint from the start - it's entirely unacceptable and highly disrespectful to the fans. If you disagree and find it acceptable for us to play like that, fine. But spare all the other BS about us not having the capacity to get the result today.

I’m sorry, aren’t you the person who a few messages back lectured me on making an either or binary argument with nothing in between.

Where have I said the result is acceptable ?

I disagree that we have consciously chosen to play the way we did. For me it’s a mixture of a) human nature where no matter how much you might have been told not to think about the semi final and how you might miss it if you think twice about putting in x tackle or running x amount of kilometres and it might make you hesitant in your reactions and b) playing against a team that like many premier league teams plays to our weakness…not having a consistent attack or even attacking focal point to help break down obdurate teams.

So no, I’m sorry to say you asserting something is obvious is just an assertion

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m not Letters, I’m not getting into circular arguments with you forever

Nor am I going to do what you do and accuse you of wilfully misunderstanding. But do you think Real Madrid decided to create fuck all against us at home? Or do you think because we know how devastating they can be in attack if given the chance to launch a quick break we gave up possession to them which in turn allowed us to exploit space when we won the ball.

We aren’t having to break teams like Real Madrid down , the space is already there.

Yeah, I already knew what the problem is with you. You figure yourself some sort of football expert, having to painfully explain the insider's knowledge to us plebs in the cheap seats. And when the plebs say, wait, that's not what I saw on the pitch - and you contradicted yourself several times anyway, Mr Expert - you chuck out an attempted put-down so you can take a breather from digging ever deeper holes.

Now you want to compare the Madrid games to today as if Palace pulled off some masterclass that rendered the team who beat Madrid incapable. Once again missing the fact we played way, way below our level - obviously by design. And the tiresomeness of it all, having to explain to me the intricacies of something I wasn't even talking about. I said, we were shit today because we didn't give a fuck. Seems to be what most fans are saying. Some say unacceptable, others say understandable. You say, no, no, there's far more to it - and then you get your whiteboard out. Patiently tutoring us on how it's "silly" to expect a decent performance against Palace at home. Okay, if that's what you want to do. Maybe in your deep, tactical musings there's an answer to why we decided to exert ZERO pressure - you;d think that would be the last thing we'd do against a team apparently so hard to break down (except when we did).

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m sorry, aren’t you the person who a few messages back lectured me on making an either or binary argument with nothing in between.

Where have I said the result is acceptable ?

I disagree that we have consciously chosen to play the way we did. For me it’s a mixture of a) human nature where no matter how much you might have been told not to think about the semi final and how you might miss it if you think twice about putting in x tackle or running x amount of kilometres and it might make you hesitant in your reactions and b) playing against a team that like many premier league teams plays to our weakness…not having a consistent attack or even attacking focal point to help break down obdurate teams.

So no, I’m sorry to say you asserting something is obvious is just an assertion

Didn't say you said you find it acceptable. I said, "if". Then you go on to speculate that we didn't put in the required effort today because it's human nature, supported by another claim that breaking down defences is our weakness, despite the stats I gave you.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah, I already knew what the problem is with you. You figure yourself some sort of football expert, having to painfully explain the insider's knowledge to us plebs in the cheap seats. And when the plebs say, wait, that's not what I saw on the pitch - and you contradicted yourself several times anyway, Mr Expert - you chuck out an attempted put-down so you can take a breather from digging ever deeper holes.

Now you want to compare the Madrid games to today as if Palace pulled off some masterclass that rendered the team who beat Madrid incapable. Once again missing the fact we played way, way below our level - obviously by design. And the tiresomeness of it all, having to explain to me the intricacies of something I wasn't even talking about. I said, we were shit today because we didn't give a fuck. Seems to be what most fans are saying. Some say unacceptable, others say understandable. You say, no, no, there's far more to it - and then you get your whiteboard out. Patiently tutoring us on how it's "silly" to expect a decent performance against Palace at home. Okay, if that's what you want to do. Maybe in your deep, tactical musings there's an answer to why we decided to exert ZERO pressure - you;d think that would be the last thing we'd do against a team apparently so hard to break down (except when we did).


No I said it’s silly to expect us to score 5 goals against them

Given that in the previous nine league games we’ve scored 12 goals (a third of those coming against Ipswich) scored more than one goal against only one team that wasn’t in the bottom three (Fulham). It’s reasonable to think that we are struggling to score goals.

I’m not saying we couldn’t play better than we did, and as even you acknowledge I’m not saying the result is acceptable

I’m saying that a team that struggles to break teams down when they cede possession might just might in the back of their mind be that little more hesitant, and I’m saying that’s more of an unconscious reaction than some conscious decision to play within ourselves. The players we have available to us and the style of play we have is more amenable to playing teams that will try and dominate possession and prioritise scoring against us over preventing us from scoring.

That’s a weakness on Arteta’s part both in terms of personnel and tactically but realistically it’s not getting addressed this side of the end of the season.


I don’t think you’re too stupid to realise this, I think you’re too stubborn to acknowledge it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t know where you pull this thing that I think I’m some kind of genius when it comes to footballing knowledge

I’m applying Occam’s Razor. No more no less. I’ve consistently said for months that in the league we had to recalibrate our expectations in terms of results and in the amount of goals we score.

I’m annoyed tonight because we contrived to drop points despite scoring two goals which was largely due to concentration issues at the back, not because we didn’t blow palace away they aren’t Ipswich and they weren’t down to ten men.


We don’t have the players in attack or midfield to make teams that cough up the majority of possession to us part like the Red Sea.


I don’t think I’m seeing anything that anyone else can’t see for themselves. As i pointed out to the other guy, when you already state you’d rather play Barcelona than Inter in the final (when Barcelona have the better players) you know what this team is about

[Mac76]

Like I said - play the fucking kids! At least they'd go out and make a game of it.

Unfortunately Arteta doesn't get that, he has a poor grasp of what motivates players outside the select few, it's like the teacher who only bothers with the kids who sit at the front of the classroom

[Letters]

What? So let's get 5th then! That qualifies us for the big money next year, and we can do even less. Maybe not even turn up? Just have the league award the points in our absence? If there's no difference between 2nd and 3rd (which implies there's no difference in winning and losing) then let's call it a day now. And if it looks like we're going to drop out of the top 5, get the boys together and stick them on a caoch to the match - eek out the draws we need to win that 5th spot on goal difference. Fans might not like it - but fuck them.

Point of order, one "eke"s out draws. Eek is what you say when you see a ghost. :lol: But that pedantry aside...
I'll be disappointed if we don't finish 2nd. We've been the 2nd best side in a very poor league this season. The fact that Liverpool will wrap up the title this early is testament to how poor the quality has been, they're better than everyone else but they're not that special.
The only real difference between 2nd and 3rd is a bit of prize money - which we've more than made up for with our CL run anyway. We're not going to have an open top bus parade for finishing 2nd again.
You decried the Top 4 Trophy thing, do you now want the 2nd place trophy?

I want us to finish 2nd, but if we do slip to 3rd of 4th then it isn't really going to add much extra disappointment if any to the already disappointing season.
Only the CL can mitigate that now.

[Letters]

2-2 FT.

Another fucking draw.

I can't understand why players just want to toss away momentum.

Only got themselves to blame if they can't get up to the levels required for PSG.

Umm. You know we drew both league games before the two Real games, right?
I understand a bit of frustration but I'd finding the depth of it a bit weird in the context of a long since dead league campaign and a CL semi-final to think about.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Point of order, one "eke"s out draws. Eek is what you say when you see a ghost. :lol: But that pedantry aside...
I'll be disappointed if we don't finish 2nd. We've been the 2nd best side in a very poor league this season. The fact that Liverpool will wrap up the title this early is testament to how poor the quality has been, they're better than everyone else but they're not that special.
The only real difference between 2nd and 3rd is a bit of prize money - which we've more than made up for with our CL run anyway. We're not going to have an open top bus parade for finishing 2nd again.
You decried the Top 4 Trophy thing, do you now want the 2nd place trophy?

I want us to finish 2nd, but if we do slip to 3rd of 4th then it isn't really going to add much extra disappointment if any to the already disappointing season.
Only the CL can mitigate that now.

Not an unreasonable statement at all. The only benefit from finishing 2nd is prestige (which in fact would paper over a pretty horrible season).

But it’s strangely important to me, although I realise there’s no reason why it should be

As for the Palace game itself, I thought the team played within itself and was hesitant at times where I disagree with people on here is that this was a deliberate tactical decision and not players a) thinking about the semi finals (is it acceptable or professional? No but it’s human) b) worried about the Palace counter attack, because I have to say in the league there isn’t the confidence that we can outscore teams (and with good reason)

Apparently this makes me a self declared tactical genius to say that we are more confident playing teams like Real Madrid who will have more possession but in doing so leave more space, than teams who will soak up the pressure and break on you. I don’t just accept that we will struggle against teams that allow us to control possession, but given we are playing with no strikers and we arent set up nor do we have the players to benefit from playing more direct….i can understand when it has been a struggle.
I don’t think we simply tried to hold on to a one goal lead but I think when we struggle to extend it as we did last night it can make us retreat within ourselves somewhat. I don’t think that’s a conscious decision though.

[Letters]

Would love to know how many points we’ve dropped from winning positions because I can’t quite remember a season like this in terms of draws.

It's 18 apparently :lol: :doh:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Umm. You know we drew both league games before the two Real games, right?
I understand a bit of frustration but I'd finding the depth of it a bit weird in the context of a long since dead league campaign and a CL semi-final to think about.

I think drawing 13 games and twice giving away a lead at home is frustrating as fuck

I think albeit tentatively I think we tried to extend our lead, but often I think because we know we are struggling to finish teams off, that affects us mentally. Either in being too cautious going forward or making silly mistakes at the back

[Marc Overmars]

Point of order, one "eke"s out draws. Eek is what you say when you see a ghost. :lol: But that pedantry aside...
I'll be disappointed if we don't finish 2nd. We've been the 2nd best side in a very poor league this season. The fact that Liverpool will wrap up the title this early is testament to how poor the quality has been, they're better than everyone else but they're not that special.
The only real difference between 2nd and 3rd is a bit of prize money - which we've more than made up for with our CL run anyway. We're not going to have an open top bus parade for finishing 2nd again.
You decried the Top 4 Trophy thing, do you now want the 2nd place trophy?

I want us to finish 2nd, but if we do slip to 3rd of 4th then it isn't really going to add much extra disappointment if any to the already disappointing season.
Only the CL can mitigate that now.

The worry now is not about just dropping a position or two, it is the fact that we are only one more dud result away from being in danger and fighting to stay in the top 5. Which is a ridiculous situation to find ourselves in given the cushion we had.

We now have to beat Bournemouth sandwiched between PSG and then hope for something at Anfield followed by Newcastle who could conceivably be in a position to overtake us with a win that fixture.

The only saving grace is that we have Southampton on the final day but as I said, the fact this is even a conversation now is pathetic.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It's 18 apparently :lol: :doh:

Yep

1-1 Brighton
2-2 Man City
2-2 Liverpool
1-1 Chelsea
1-1 Brighton
2-2 Aston Villa
1-1 Everton
1-1 Brentford
2-2 Palace


In all but one of those games we only had a one goal lead and I think the struggle to build on that lead, where we either overcommit or make a mistake at the back (or in 5 of those 9 games have match officials punishing us) causes this.

I thought we played well against Brentford but ultimately you give the ball away and you have opposition players steaming down the pitch and you don’t cut out one ball and they are there


I don’t think defensively we are really any weaker, in terms of goals conceded we are still the best defence in the league

I think these dropped points are all about failing to kill teams off. And again despite what people on here claim, I don’t think that’s a tactical choice to sit on a one goal lead (because in fact most of the time we aren’t).

[HCZ_Reborn]

The worry now is not about just dropping a position or two, it is the fact that we are only one more dud result away from being in danger and fighting to stay in the top 5. Which is a ridiculous situation to find ourselves in given the cushion we had.

We now have to beat Bournemouth sandwiched between PSG and then hope for something at Anfield followed by Newcastle who could conceivably be in a position to overtake us with a win that fixture.

The only saving grace is that we have Southampton on the final day but as I said, the fact this is even a conversation now is pathetic.

I don’t think we can be blasé, but equally we have been dropping points left, right and centre and really we’ve come no closer to dropping out of 2nd than we were a month ago (and now with fewer games). It seems that no team can get the required momentum

I’m frustrated because the opportunity was there to put it to bed. But I’ve had the worry you’ve expressed here for the last month or so, and in reality it’s not materialised.

[Marc Overmars]

I don’t think we can be blasé, but equally we have been dropping points left, right and centre and really we’ve come no closer to dropping out of 2nd than we were a month ago (and now with fewer games). It seems that no team can get the required momentum

I’m frustrated because the opportunity was there to put it to bed. But I’ve had the worry you’ve expressed here for the last month or so, and in reality it’s not materialised.

I wasn’t worried before because I felt we had a string of winnable fixtures but now we’ve fluffed them all, we’re left with the most trickiest games that we’ll need results in. There hasn’t been any momentum in the league for months so I do genuinely feel that our top 5 place is in danger. If we don’t beat Bournemouth then it’s squeaky bum time for sure.

[Mac76]

Umm. You know we drew both league games before the two Real games, right?


A point I also keep trying to make, what builds momentum is beating Real twice to make the semi in the first place, drawing piddly league games means nothing - that said the manner of the draw was disappointing, I wonder if Saliba's needed a rest he seems to be losing his focus in games, I hope he gets a day or two off now

tbh I think the players wil be disappointed with yesterday overall, which unlike the coast vs Ipswich was a bit messy - they now have six days to rest and get their act together though

still would have preferred Saka hadn't played tbh and was glad he actually didn't get the ball much so no-one kicked him again

it also felt really odd to start Sterling and not Ethan, although I guess with Trossard starting he along with Saka and arguably Tierney were the only 'impact' players available to bring on

[IBK]

Late to the party. Disappointed with that result and our performance.

I said after the RM games that we were looking at stage 5 of Arteta's project. Last night's game was stage 2. What is a bit disheartening is that the one thing that Areta prizes more than anything else is focus and control of games. This was sorely lacking. I don't really think that this will set the pattern for the CL semis - as Letters points out, we drew both our EPL games before the 2 RM ones - but the lack of game management and security after going ahead twice last night reflects a real Achilles' heel for this team - that is reflected in all our draws this season. This is a basic. If we cannot focus properly for routine EPL ties, it does not bode too well for next season's campaign, whatever transfer business we do.

Also, i agree with all those who have stressed the importance of maintaining second place this season. This is now somewhat in jeopardy. Arsenal need to get it together and show us that they are serious.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Late to the party. Disappointed with that result and our performance.

I said after the RM games that we were looking at stage 5 of Arteta's project. Last night's game was stage 2. What is a bit disheartening is that the one thing that Areta prizes more than anything else is focus and control of games. This was sorely lacking. I don't really think that this will set the pattern for the CL semis - as Letters points out, we drew both our EPL games before the 2 RM ones - but the lack of game management and security after going ahead twice last night reflects a real Achilles' heel for this team - that is reflected in all our draws this season. This is a basic. If we cannot focus properly for routine EPL ties, it does not bode too well for next season's campaign, whatever transfer business we do.

Also, i agree with all those who have stressed the importance of maintaining second place this season. This is now somewhat in jeopardy. Arsenal need to get it together and show us that they are serious.

No im not in anyway worried that the league games will have any impact on us in the champions league. I just want us like yourself to finish 2nd

Apart from anything else, playing very different opponents who play differently

My explanation for the game last night is speculative but it does involve the available factors in play


We struggle especially at home against teams that allow us to dominate possession, we know that if we misplace a pass that they will be on us like a fly on shit especially given because we don’t have a route one player who we can lump it up to we have to push high up the pitch to create chances let alone score goals.

Palace already stated that they targeted Raya coming off his line. But I think sometimes being overly focused on making a mistake and being punished for it makes you clam up and ironically it can make you more likely to make said mistakes. Thus we were withdrawn and a bit tentative. Though I don’t think we were simply trying to sit on the one goal lead as people here have suggested, therefore I don’t think there was anything tactical about the performance.

Plus as Arteta admitted in the post match interview we were second to a lot of balls, I don’t know but I think that was with an eye to not getting injured before a big semi final

[Letters]

Also, i agree with all those who have stressed the importance of maintaining second place this season.
Why?

I'm genuinely interested to know why people think this is so important.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Why?

I'm genuinely interested to know why people think this is so important.

As I said in my original response to you, Prestige

Forest finishing above us, Newcastle finishing above us, City with their shittest season in a decade finishing above us

Fuck that shit. Plus we’ve held onto second place since the end of last year.

[Marc Overmars]

Why?

I'm genuinely interested to know why people think this is so important.

Optics and also prestige as HCZ says.

Finishing as high as we can should be important regardless of what else is happening. The only way this genuinely doesn’t matter is if we win the CL but the way some fans are dismissing the league now you’d think our name is already on the trophy.

It is quite conceivable that we drop to 3rd or lower and PSG dump us out. Morale would be floored and fan sentiment would be awful going into a long summer.

[Letters]

I don't buy it. It's pretty much become a meme that we could be the first side in PL history to finish 2nd 3 years in a row.
There's no prestige in that. It's almost embarrasing.
Of course you always want to finish as high as you can, but the CL clearly has to be the priority.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't buy it. It's pretty much become a meme that we could be the first side in PL history to finish 2nd 3 years in a row.
There's no prestige in that. It's almost embarrasing.
Of course you always want to finish as high as you can, but the CL clearly has to be the priority.

Nothing to do with finishing 2nd three times in a row, it’s about finishing 2nd despite having a monstrosity of a season

I want us to finish above Forest, City and Newcastle. It’s as simple as that

[Niall_Quinn]

Point of order, one "eke"s out draws. Eek is what you say when you see a ghost. :lol: But that pedantry aside...
I'll be disappointed if we don't finish 2nd. We've been the 2nd best side in a very poor league this season. The fact that Liverpool will wrap up the title this early is testament to how poor the quality has been, they're better than everyone else but they're not that special.
The only real difference between 2nd and 3rd is a bit of prize money - which we've more than made up for with our CL run anyway. We're not going to have an open top bus parade for finishing 2nd again.
You decried the Top 4 Trophy thing, do you now want the 2nd place trophy?

I want us to finish 2nd, but if we do slip to 3rd of 4th then it isn't really going to add much extra disappointment if any to the already disappointing season.
Only the CL can mitigate that now.

I decried the top4 trophy nonsense for exactly the same reason it's important to finish second. Not because there's a trophy for 2nd, but because it means we'll have won our remaining games rather than lost them. Same applies to top 4 trophy, didn't win enough games to be 3rd, 2nd first. It's your argument that's at fault. 2nd, 3rd, doesn't matter? Well it does. Because we're here to win, first and foremost. If we qualify for stuff or get trophies on the back of winning, that's a bonus, not the mission. Win every game and you get all that other stuff anyway. Winners win. Winning football matches is what we're here to do. Fucking around in football matches because we'll still qualify anyway is not what winners do. It's what players who don't respect the shirt do, and what manager and owners who don't respect the fans or the game do.

This is absolutely fundamental and something this club still doesn't get, neither do half the fans. Cheering when you qualify for Europe in 4th is and always has been a nonsense because the 4th place club has zero chance of winning what they just qualified for! Because they don't have a winning mentality in the first place. Same as yesterday. When you go out there for a stroll because there are "bigger" games to come, that's the loser in this club emerging yet again. You win what's in front of you then on to the next win. Apart from which, PSG were watching that game yesterday and laughing their knackers off. I suppose we may have lulled them into a false sense of security, if that was the plan?

It was embarrassing to watch that yesterday. An absolute disgrace from all involved.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't buy it. It's pretty much become a meme that we could be the first side in PL history to finish 2nd 3 years in a row.
There's no prestige in that. It's almost embarrasing.
Of course you always want to finish as high as you can, but the CL clearly has to be the priority.

We’re already meme’d to shit anyway for being bottlers when it comes to getting over the line.

[Niall_Quinn]

Umm. You know we drew both league games before the two Real games, right?
I understand a bit of frustration but I'd finding the depth of it a bit weird in the context of a long since dead league campaign and a CL semi-final to think about.

This is unbelievable! DEAD season? No, I believe there are 4 games remaining, one away against the club that's going to win the title. It's FAR from over. Unless we're taking our ball back and sulking off because we didn't win a title?

What about the fans turning up having paid for season tickets? TURNING UP. HAVING PAID. The very least the players can do, seeing as they haven't been very good this season, is show a bit of respect and turn up and earn the cash that just came of of those fans' pockets. No?

To even imagine it is acceptable to not put 100% effort in over the last 4 games is extraordinary and flies in the face of what competitive sport is supposed to be about. Utter complacency, total disregard for the game itself.

So why are Liverpool so far ahead? Why didn't they ease off and piss on the fans, stroll out the last few games and finish a point ahead? Is it a coincidence the team that won the most games is going to win the title? Probably with a points tally that approximates what City have been doing in recent years. They WON those games to build that margin which means they will inevitably win a title. They kept on winning regardless of the race being over, because that's what winners do! And so they will win the title. Winning is their habit.

Losers do different things. They take easier paths. They do what's required to achieve minimums. It becomes a different habit.

Why don't people get this? In sport, in life in general?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I decried the top4 trophy nonsense for exactly the same reason it's important to finish second. Not because there's a trophy for 2nd, but because it means we'll have won our remaining games rather than lost them. Same applies to top 4 trophy, didn't win enough games to be 3rd, 2nd first. It's your argument that's at fault. 2nd, 3rd, doesn't matter? Well it does. Because we're here to win, first and foremost. If we qualify for stuff or get trophies on the back of winning, that's a bonus, not the mission. Win every game and you get all that other stuff anyway. Winners win. Winning football matches is what we're here to do. Fucking around in football matches because we'll still qualify anyway is not what winners do. It's what players who don't respect the shirt do, and what manager and owners who don't respect the fans or the game do.

This is absolutely fundamental and something this club still doesn't get, neither do half the fans. Cheering when you qualify for Europe in 4th is and always has been a nonsense because the 4th place club has zero chance of winning what they just qualified for! Because they don't have a winning mentality in the first place. Same as yesterday. When you go out there for a stroll because there are "bigger" games to come, that's the loser in this club emerging yet again. You win what's in front of you then on to the next win. Apart from which, PSG were watching that game yesterday and laughing their knackers off. I suppose we may have lulled them into a false sense of security, if that was the plan?

It was embarrassing to watch that yesterday. An absolute disgrace from all involved.

The last week of the season before we played Sheffield Wednesday at Wembley in the Fa cup final in 1993, we put out half a team and played like chumps at home to Spurs and lost 3-1.

In April/May of 1994 before winning the cup winners cup we did the same in league games.

You act as though this is somehow a recent thing. Do I think the performance was acceptable last night? No but neither do I think they were set up to play within ourselves. The Saka chance and the Martinelli disallowed goal rather suggests that we weren’t simply content to sit on a one goal lead, but when a team isn’t confident in front of goal, it’s worried about being caught on the break and yes in the back of the players minds they are concerned about not getting injured for the semi final…you can probably not unreasonably conclude that this all contributed.

Plus I wouldn’t mind, people act like I’ve told them they’ve no right to be angry/disappointed/frustrated. I’m all three, but I’ve seen enough of us this season to understand how it comes about. And no that’s not a result of thinking I have superior knowledge. But I think the reason people are snapping at me, is the same reason why I snapped at them earlier on in the season, people like to have their anger validated or failing that be left to be angry

[Letters]

Nothing to do with finishing 2nd three times in a row, it’s about finishing 2nd despite having a monstrosity of a season

I want us to finish above Forest, City and Newcastle. It’s as simple as that

I do too, I just don't see it as important as some of you lot seem to.

[Mac76]

This is unbelievable! DEAD season? No, I believe there are 4 games remaining, one away against the club that's going to win the title. It's FAR from over. Unless we're taking our ball back and sulking off because we didn't win a title?

What about the fans turning up having paid for season tickets? TURNING UP. HAVING PAID. The very least the players can do, seeing as they haven't been very good this season, is show a bit of respect and turn up and earn the cash that just came of of those fans' pockets. No?



As one of those very people, I don't mind rotating (I actually like seeing fringe and youth players be given a chance) and players taking care not to pick up injuries

Did they turn up? I'd say mostly, we should have won the game but Saliba made a monumental mess (partly because he's not been rested at all this season perhaps) and gifted them a goal

Unfortunately these things happen


So why are Liverpool so far ahead? Why didn't they ease off and piss on the fans, stroll out the last few games and finish a point ahead?

Liverpool are out of the CL and FAC so have nothing to play for elsewhere, therefore can field their first team as much as they want in the League - given refs and injuries decided the outcome of the season for us, we've rightly focused on the CL

I can only say again no one will (or certainly should) give a damn about the league position (as long as it's top 5) if we win the CL

[Niall_Quinn]

The last week of the season before we played Sheffield Wednesday at Wembley in the Fa cup final in 1993, we put out half a team and played like chumps at home to Spurs and lost 3-1.

In April/May of 1994 before winning the cup winners cup we did the same in league games.

You act as though this is somehow a recent thing. Do I think the performance was acceptable last night? No but neither do I think they were set up to play within ourselves. The Saka chance and the Martinelli disallowed goal rather suggests that we weren’t simply content to sit on a one goal lead, but when a team isn’t confident in front of goal, it’s worried about being caught on the break and yes in the back of the players minds they are concerned about not getting injured for the semi final…you can probably not unreasonably conclude that this all contributed.

Plus I wouldn’t mind, people act like I’ve told them they’ve no right to be angry/disappointed/frustrated. I’m all three, but I’ve seen enough of us this season to understand how it comes about. And no that’s not a result of thinking I have superior knowledge. But I think the reason people are snapping at me, is the same reason why I snapped at them earlier on in the season, people like to have their anger validated or failing that be left to be angry

No I don't act as if it's a recent thing - it's the absolute opposite, which is why I specifically referred to the losing mentality that still exists in this team to this day. Fostered by Wenger and his Top 4 Trophy. The minute a professional sporting team accepts anything but the very highest possible standard as the norm is the minute they embrace being losers. 2nd is still a place for losers. But there's losing because you tried 100% but somebody was better, and there's losing because you didn't give it your best effort. The latter is a disgusting, hateful, embarrassing thing that nobody should ever want to be associated with. Not in sport, not in life.

One minute they are beating Madrid, next minute they are being bitch-slapped by Palace. They fancied the Madrid game (prestige, signing bonuses in the future for some of them no doubt), didn't fancy Palace so bent over and took it. Not even an ounce of dignity in that lot. And you still claim they played like that because they find it difficult to break down defensive opposition? That's the reason they strolled around like they were on a sightseeing trip? Okay, if that's true then Arteta is probably the most clueless manager we ever had. Must go out there every time, Oh no, they have 10 men behind the ball. Slow it right down lads. Have a stroll. Make plenty of lazy passes and Raya, make sure you fuck around as much as possible for the whole match! Well, it's a theory I suppose, just not a very convincing one.

We weren't that great in the game against Ipswich either, in honesty. Levels dropped way off there too. Ipswich were just that poor.

And people holding up the other draws we've had as some sort of justification for this latest one! That's hilarious. Don't worry boys, they'll actually care about the PSG game so all is well! Hilarious.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No I don't act as if it's a recent thing - it's the absolute opposite, which is why I specifically referred to the losing mentality that still exists in this team to this day. Fostered by Wenger and his Top 4 Trophy. The minute a professional sporting team accepts anything but the very highest possible standard as the norm is the minute they embrace being losers. 2nd is still a place for losers. But there's losing because you tried 100% but somebody was better, and there's losing because you didn't give it your best effort. The latter is a disgusting, hateful, embarrassing thing that nobody should ever want to be associated with. Not in sport, not in life.

One minute they are beating Madrid, next minute they are being bitch-slapped by Palace. They fancied the Madrid game (prestige, signing bonuses in the future for some of them no doubt), didn't fancy Palace so bent over and took it. Not even an ounce of dignity in that lot. And you still claim they played like that because they find it difficult to break down defensive opposition? That's the reason they strolled around like they were on a sightseeing trip? Okay, if that's true then Arteta is probably the most clueless manager we ever had. Must go out there every time, Oh no, they have 10 men behind the ball. Slow it right down lads. Have a stroll. Make plenty of lazy passes and Raya, make sure you fuck around as much as possible for the whole match! Well, it's a theory I suppose, just not a very convincing one.

We weren't that great in the game against Ipswich either, in honesty. Levels dropped way off there too. Ipswich were just that poor.

And people holding up the other draws we've had as some sort of justification for this latest one! That's hilarious. Don't worry boys, they'll actually care about the PSG game so all is well! Hilarious.

Disgusting, Hateful, Embarrassing is where you lose me

Have you never dialled in a performance in your job even when you’ve had the best intention to provide the best service possible?. Have you ever had a tricky task either at work or doing some home improvement where if you make a mistake it could be costly and for some reason that’s made you particularly hesitant?

There’s no amount of money you can pay a person that cuts out that human factor. In football especially it takes only one or two people to stink out the place before it has a knock on effect on the team. And sometimes the harder you try the worse you end up performing.

We weren’t at the races yesterday, that’s not acceptable. I hope Arteta gave them a bollocking for it….(whilst looking at himself for anything he did that contributed to it). But disgusting and hateful….adjectives a bit too far for me

[Niall_Quinn]

Disgusting, Hateful, Embarrassing is where you lose me

Have you never dialled in a performance in your job even when you’ve had the best intention to provide the best service possible?. Have you ever had a tricky task either at work or doing some home improvement where if you make a mistake it could be costly and for some reason that’s made you particularly hesitant?

There’s no amount of money you can pay a person that cuts out that human factor. In football especially it takes only one or two people to stink out the place before it has a knock on effect on the team. And sometimes the harder you try the worse you end up performing.

We weren’t at the races yesterday, that’s not acceptable. I hope Arteta gave them a bollocking for it….(whilst looking at himself for anything he did that contributed to it). But disgusting and hateful….adjectives a bit too far for me

No, I haven't ever "dialled in a performance" because I work for myself so I'd be the victim of it. Have I been hesitant when faced with major tasks? Of course. Has that made me take twice the time to execute it? No. Maybe it'd take twice the time overall because I spent a lot of time planning. But the execution would be efficient thereafter. If I take somebody's money and deliver something substandard I have robbed them. Which would be disgusting, hateful and embarrassing - and terminal in terms of that relationship btw. I don't get the luxuries these players abuse.

What would happen if everybody "dialled it in"? Well, we saw it against Palace.

[Niall_Quinn]

I do too, I just don't see it as important as some of you lot seem to.

Let's say you had the football knowledge and experience of the most experienced manager in the game. But you kept your current attitude?

Where do you think your teams would be guaranteed to finish?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I decried the top4 trophy nonsense for exactly the same reason it's important to finish second. Not because there's a trophy for 2nd, but because it means we'll have won our remaining games rather than lost them. Same applies to top 4 trophy, didn't win enough games to be 3rd, 2nd first. It's your argument that's at fault. 2nd, 3rd, doesn't matter? Well it does. Because we're here to win, first and foremost. If we qualify for stuff or get trophies on the back of winning, that's a bonus, not the mission. Win every game and you get all that other stuff anyway. Winners win. Winning football matches is what we're here to do. Fucking around in football matches because we'll still qualify anyway is not what winners do. It's what players who don't respect the shirt do, and what manager and owners who don't respect the fans or the game do.

This is absolutely fundamental and something this club still doesn't get, neither do half the fans. Cheering when you qualify for Europe in 4th is and always has been a nonsense because the 4th place club has zero chance of winning what they just qualified for! Because they don't have a winning mentality in the first place. Same as yesterday. When you go out there for a stroll because there are "bigger" games to come, that's the loser in this club emerging yet again. You win what's in front of you then on to the next win. Apart from which, PSG were watching that game yesterday and laughing their knackers off. I suppose we may have lulled them into a false sense of security, if that was the plan?

It was embarrassing to watch that yesterday. An absolute disgrace from all involved.

:gp:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

No I don't act as if it's a recent thing - it's the absolute opposite, which is why I specifically referred to the losing mentality that still exists in this team to this day. Fostered by Wenger and his Top 4 Trophy. The minute a professional sporting team accepts anything but the very highest possible standard as the norm is the minute they embrace being losers. 2nd is still a place for losers. But there's losing because you tried 100% but somebody was better, and there's losing because you didn't give it your best effort. The latter is a disgusting, hateful, embarrassing thing that nobody should ever want to be associated with. Not in sport, not in life.

One minute they are beating Madrid, next minute they are being bitch-slapped by Palace. They fancied the Madrid game (prestige, signing bonuses in the future for some of them no doubt), didn't fancy Palace so bent over and took it. Not even an ounce of dignity in that lot. And you still claim they played like that because they find it difficult to break down defensive opposition? That's the reason they strolled around like they were on a sightseeing trip? Okay, if that's true then Arteta is probably the most clueless manager we ever had. Must go out there every time, Oh no, they have 10 men behind the ball. Slow it right down lads. Have a stroll. Make plenty of lazy passes and Raya, make sure you fuck around as much as possible for the whole match! Well, it's a theory I suppose, just not a very convincing one.

We weren't that great in the game against Ipswich either, in honesty. Levels dropped way off there too. Ipswich were just that poor.

And people holding up the other draws we've had as some sort of justification for this latest one! That's hilarious. Don't worry boys, they'll actually care about the PSG game so all is well! Hilarious.

:gp:

[HCZ_Reborn]

No, I haven't ever "dialled in a performance" because I work for myself so I'd be the victim of it. Have I been hesitant when faced with major tasks? Of course. Has that made me take twice the time to execute it? No. Maybe it'd take twice the time overall because I spent a lot of time planning. But the execution would be efficient thereafter. If I take somebody's money and deliver something substandard I have robbed them. Which would be disgusting, hateful and embarrassing - and terminal in terms of that relationship btw. I don't get the luxuries these players abuse.

What would happen if everybody "dialled it in"? Well, we saw it against Palace.


I don’t know what you offer, in terms of is it a product or is it a service. I’m not saying you’d ever produce substandard work but I can guarantee that there might be a variation of quality or it’s taken you longer than usual to complete because of external factors or the difficulty issue which we’ve both addressed.

But it’s all relative, unless something is mass assembled….with the best will in the world sometimes a piece of work will not be quite as good as another piece of work. Its all fine margins, I mean if a pilot or a surgeon has an off day people can die…and yet it happens.

[HCZ_Reborn]

As for my claim that we find it difficult to play defensive opposition, that’s not a claim that’s a fact.

A fact I think anyone who isn’t stubbornly trying to push a counter narrative would acknowledge

We struggle to open up most premier league teams and especially so since we’ve been playing without a striker

Since the Man City game we’ve averaged a goal a game, the Ipswich game against ten men was an outlier

Thus why I said it was silly to expect we could put five goals past them.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I don't buy it. It's pretty much become a meme that we could be the first side in PL history to finish 2nd 3 years in a row.
There's no prestige in that. It's almost embarrasing.
Of course you always want to finish as high as you can, but the CL clearly has to be the priority.

This definitely won't be the first side to do that as AW' s side already did that earlier.

Anyway I'm almost certain that we aren't going to make 2nd with this sort of attitude especially as all the other sides chasing CL spots have gotten their act together.

Currently I'm more worried for what this will do to us in the PSG game at home and the tie overall.

Lets see.

[Letters]

This is unbelievable! DEAD season?
I said "dead league campaign". Why did you change it to season? The season isn't dead because there aren't 4 games left, there are 6 - hopefully 7.
Three of those games could win us a trophy, the biggest one in club football, 4 can't. Which do you prioritise?
Now obviously you're going to say "all of them". But it's just human nature to have one eye on a CL semi-final when Top 5 is all but assured and the title is all but impossible.
If the title was still a possibility then sure, I'd agree that it's completely unacceptable to take your foot off the gas in the league because you are still in the CL.
As it is, I get it. They're not going to be straining every sinew and flying in to every challenge a week before a CL semi-final and risk getting an injury which will mean they'll miss it.
HCZ has given you multiple examples where this has happened previously and teams have gone on to win the trophy.
I've already pointed out we drew both league games before the Real ones. They stood up in the big games when it mattered. That's what winners do.
Will they finish the job? Head says no, but we can dream - the Real results make me think there's something about this lot which makes it a not impossible dream.


So why are Liverpool so far ahead? Why didn't they ease off and piss on the fans, stroll out the last few games and finish a point ahead?
Because they haven't won it yet. And I have heard they haven't actually been playing that well and have lucked out a few times in games where they could have dropped points.
You may remember last time Liverpool won it they won 26 out of 27 games. They weren't mathematically champions at that point but it was basically impossible for them not to win it. Why didn't they smash the PL points total record? Because they took their foot off the gas, they lost 3 and drew 2 of the last 11 games.


Losers do different things. They take easier paths. They do what's required to achieve minimums. It becomes a different habit.

Why don't people get this? In sport, in life in general?

You seem to think these guys are robots. They're not, they're humans. They're absolutely not losers - they've got to the very top of their profession.
If they finish the job in the CL no-one is going to remember a couple of admittedly annoying dropped points vs Palace.
If they don't finish the job then...well, we probably still won't remember it really. We will just remember this as a disappointing season where we drew too many games and didn't have enough up front to kill off games. That was the feeling before last night, I don't think it adds much to it.

[Letters]

This definitely won't be the first side to do that as AW' s side already did that earlier.

Oh! So we did. 1999-2001. I heard something about it being some "record" we could break. My bad.

[Mac76]

Nuff said

https://www.le-grove.co.uk/p/it-doesnt-fcking-matter

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Nuff said

https://www.le-grove.co.uk/p/it-doesnt-fcking-matter

I can't believe I bothered to read this trash.

I got back to my senses and had to stop once he started making excuses for Odegaard....imagine saying he's suffering for being the only creative outlet in the team this season, like this is any different from the past 2 seasons where I must have missed Zidane and Pirlo offering him support!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well it’s kind of true in a roundabout way in the sense that clearly he hasn’t been able to rediscover his form since coming back from injury, he is playing things too safe (which is a sign of lacking confidence) but because we’ve had to play Nwaneri on the right in Saka’s absence that he’s had to play in games when it might have been better to drop him for a few games and let him come back fresh

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Well it’s kind of true in a roundabout way in the sense that clearly he hasn’t been able to rediscover his form since coming back from injury, he is playing things too safe (which is a sign of lacking confidence) but because we’ve had to play Nwaneri on the right in Saka’s absence that he’s had to play in games when it might have been better to drop him for a few games and let him come back fresh

I really don't know what his problem is and I'm tired of guessing.

At first I thought if Saka got back into the team he'd play better. Only for Saka to get back and our captain starts acting like a baby looking for his mummy by seeking Saka out constantly even when he's clearly marked out.

Then the Madrid game happens. I mean he's playing against the team that apparently "prematurely" gave up on his potential. I expected at least a few sparks from him, especially in the first leg.....only for me to watch him hiding under Saka's skirt for most of the game till Rice stepped up obviously.

So after that I went further and thought, maybe White is the missing piece of the puzzle. Again, only for all three of them to start against Ipswich (I think it was) and still no improvement or decisiveness in his play.

I'm not interested in making excuses for him any longer. On his day he's unplayable and clearly one of the most talented players I've ever seen. But in general he is easily one of the wimpiest and that particular attribute seems to be sticking out more and more.

[Letters]

The title of the article is "it doesn't fucking matter". So focusing on that part...I pretty much agree. Unless we do somehow contrive to finish outside the Top 5, it honestly doesn't matter that much. Discounting that possibility, as it seems vanishingly unlikely to me. What are we going to remember about this season?

I see two possibilities.
First, we win the CL - I mean, if that happens who will give an utter fuck that we dropped points against Palace?
Frustrations will linger about the poor league season, but a CL win would surely trump that and buy Arteta a lot of good will.
Being of a certain vintage, I remember 92/93 quite well. It was boring boring Arsenal at its boring boring Arsenalest. And we were so poor in the league that we flirted with relegation. We only finished 7 points above the drop-zone. But what are my main memories from that season? The revenge against Spurs in the semi-final, the finals, Adams dropping Morrow after the league cup win :lol:, Linighan winning the FA Cup - our first since '79, remember, which I was too young to remember.

Second, and let's face it, the more likely scenario - we don't win the CL. Obviously then we will be left with the disappointment of a poor league season. But even then a couple of dropped points against Palace doesn't add much to that. The bigger sting will be losing to PSG or losing the final ( :sick: ).

TL;DR - the late brainfart last night was frustrating. But it goes in to a large folder of frustrations this season. 18 points dropped from winning positions is dire. Going out of the title race before February was over is dire. Only a CL win can save this season and I have no issue with the players having one eye on that game when they're thinking about whether to go in to tackles. In that 92/93 season we lost both league games before the cup finals, we drew the one before the semi-final. It had no bearing on those cup games and neither did the draws in the league this season ahead of both Real games.

[Niall_Quinn]

I said "dead league campaign". Why did you change it to season? The season isn't dead because there aren't 4 games left, there are 6 - hopefully 7.
Three of those games could win us a trophy, the biggest one in club football, 4 can't. Which do you prioritise?
Now obviously you're going to say "all of them". But it's just human nature to have one eye on a CL semi-final when Top 5 is all but assured and the title is all but impossible.
If the title was still a possibility then sure, I'd agree that it's completely unacceptable to take your foot off the gas in the league because you are still in the CL.
As it is, I get it. They're not going to be straining every sinew and flying in to every challenge a week before a CL semi-final and risk getting an injury which will mean they'll miss it.
HCZ has given you multiple examples where this has happened previously and teams have gone on to win the trophy.
I've already pointed out we drew both league games before the Real ones. They stood up in the big games when it mattered. That's what winners do.
Will they finish the job? Head says no, but we can dream - the Real results make me think there's something about this lot which makes it a not impossible dream.


Because they haven't won it yet. And I have heard they haven't actually been playing that well and have lucked out a few times in games where they could have dropped points.
You may remember last time Liverpool won it they won 26 out of 27 games. They weren't mathematically champions at that point but it was basically impossible for them not to win it. Why didn't they smash the PL points total record? Because they took their foot off the gas, they lost 3 and drew 2 of the last 11 games.



You seem to think these guys are robots. They're not, they're humans. They're absolutely not losers - they've got to the very top of their profession.
If they finish the job in the CL no-one is going to remember a couple of admittedly annoying dropped points vs Palace.
If they don't finish the job then...well, we probably still won't remember it really. We will just remember this as a disappointing season where we drew too many games and didn't have enough up front to kill off games. That was the feeling before last night, I don't think it adds much to it.

Dear Lord. Maybe you should pitch up and give them a foot massage? They have you under their thumb, that's for sure.

Pay me 100K every week and I'll show you what you get for your money - if it's even possible to justify such a ridiculous charge. I'd feel like an utter cunt if I didn't deliver every single time - WOUNDN'T YOU?

Take the day off? And bank the 100K? No mate. No way. Unjustifiable - no excuse. And if human nature is what you are falling back on then these are certainly flawed humans. Piss takers. Won't be having that at all. You go with your basement standards and be happy - not my business to tell you what's waht. From my point of view - disgraceful - unacceptable - hateful - embarrassing! Can't stand losers, they make my skin crawl.

[Niall_Quinn]

As for my claim that we find it difficult to play defensive opposition, that’s not a claim that’s a fact.

A fact I think anyone who isn’t stubbornly trying to push a counter narrative would acknowledge

We struggle to open up most premier league teams and especially so since we’ve been playing without a striker

Since the Man City game we’ve averaged a goal a game, the Ipswich game against ten men was an outlier

Thus why I said it was silly to expect we could put five goals past them.

Well okay. But I gave you the stats. Unless we've only started facing massed defensive ranks in the period you cover - we are still right up there with the best in the league. Hard to explain, isn't it? Hard to excuse. You and I both know damn well we have the players to break down ANY defence. But what you and I disagree on is the way we go about it. You forgive the stupid tactics, I don't. It's EASY enough to break down bus parkers - been done for decades. Successfully. 9 out of 10 you get the result if you apply the right pressure. Take that pressure off, go all Pep, and sure - you are FUCKED.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don’t know what you offer, in terms of is it a product or is it a service. I’m not saying you’d ever produce substandard work but I can guarantee that there might be a variation of quality or it’s taken you longer than usual to complete because of external factors or the difficulty issue which we’ve both addressed.

But it’s all relative, unless something is mass assembled….with the best will in the world sometimes a piece of work will not be quite as good as another piece of work. Its all fine margins, I mean if a pilot or a surgeon has an off day people can die…and yet it happens.

Blow jobs mostly - but hand jobs for the shy.

[Niall_Quinn]

I can't believe I bothered to read this trash.

I got back to my senses and had to stop once he started making excuses for Odegaard....imagine saying he's suffering for being the only creative outlet in the team this season, like this is any different from the past 2 seasons where I must have missed Zidane and Pirlo offering him support!

Odegard's been a disaster for months now but nobody will come out and say it. He's the worst captain we ever had. Everything a captain shouldn't be. The way he gave that ball to Saka for the pen - fucking disgraceful. Rice is the captain, on the pitch - maybe not off it. Arteta has a hard decision coming up but he better make it. And if Odegard doesn't want to pick up his game then he's surplus. Don't know why we are signing Zubi either - why do we need him? We need an extra 8, not a 6. Extend Partey's contract - he's won that privilege. And let the poor bastard play in EVERY game. Arteta needs to sort his shit out. He's being applauded as a genius right now. A genius that lost a title by double figures but MIGHT get lucky in a big comp that could trump that disaster. Not saying he hasn't had his good moments, but the Odegard captaincy isn't something he should be clinging to. Or Gabriel - he'd be a good captain. Or Miles - Adams did it. Anyone with the desire which Odegard has lost.

[Letters]

I'd feel like an utter cunt if I didn't deliver every single time - WOUNDN'T YOU?
I'd feel a bigger one if I went into a crunching tackle a week before a Champions League semi-final, injured myself and then missed it.


From my point of view - disgraceful - unacceptable - hateful - embarrassing! Can't stand losers, they make my skin crawl.
It's interesting then that you are ignoring the fact - and it is a fact - that the "real men" who played back in the day, the ones you eulogise, the ones you regard as winners, did the exact same thing before big cup games.

Again, if we still had a shot at the title then I'd be agreeing with you. But we don't, so I don't.

[Mac76]

The way he gave that ball to Saka for the pen - fucking disgraceful.

You've no idea have you?

Odegaard ALWAYS takes the ball then gives it to Saka when the pel is ready to be taken - why? because that way he takes any heat from opposition players wanting to put off the taker, while Saka can quietly think about the pel - a very captain-like act don't you think?

Odegaard also makes sure newer/younger players are looked after and quietly goes about his business but does have words with other players when he needs to - just because he doesn't go around with his chest puffed out and bellowing at people, a la Rice, doesn't mean he isn't a good captain - in fact it's the oppostie it shows he keeps his head, which surely is what a captain should do...?

He's off form atm and does annoy me with some of the things he does/doesn't do with the ball, but this stuff about the captaincy is just BS from moronic cavemen

[Marc Overmars]

I find Odegaard lacks confidence and because of that rarely takes responsibility in attempting to get the team playing and moving up the pitch with any vigour. He’s still a good presser but I think he is capable of doing a lot more in the final third than he actually does. He’s in a funk so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt because he has shown what he can do in previous seasons, but his tendency to overplay is frustrating and definitely doesn’t help our already weak front line. Captain or not you want your most talented players to be able to play off the cuff when needs be but I don’t think Odegaard does that.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I find Odegaard lacks confidence and because of that rarely takes responsibility in attempting to get the team playing and moving up the pitch with any vigour. He’s still a good presser but I think he is capable of doing a lot more in the final third than he actually does. He’s in a funk so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt because he has shown what he can do in previous seasons, but his tendency to overplay is frustrating and definitely doesn’t help our already weak front line. Captain or not you want your most talented players to be able to play off the cuff when needs be but I don’t think Odegaard does that.

100% agree with this

[Mac76]

I find Odegaard lacks confidence and because of that rarely takes responsibility in attempting to get the team playing and moving up the pitch with any vigour. He’s still a good presser but I think he is capable of doing a lot more in the final third than he actually does. He’s in a funk so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt because he has shown what he can do in previous seasons, but his tendency to overplay is frustrating and definitely doesn’t help our already weak front line. Captain or not you want your most talented players to be able to play off the cuff when needs be but I don’t think Odegaard does that.

Sure, as I said I agree he's off form and he's really annoyed me at times by trying to be too clever - vis a vis stupid short corners, backwards FKs etc

I doubt we'll see an improvement this season but maybe he can chill over the summer and get back to the basics - he ought to be coached to do that too

But as you say that's entirely unrelated to the captaincy, unless he really does lose serious form over a protracted period of time - even then I think to take it away from him we'd need to realise it risked losing him altogether as it wouldn't go down well...

[HCZ_Reborn]

As much as I’d prefer Rice as captain, I tend to agree in that I think if you just strip someone of the captaincy like that,it is going to create resentment that won’t go.

As for signing someone else, I think we probably need cover in that area if nothing else as we clearly were lacking when he was injured

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

There is a certain precedent but it requires both parties to be on board. And it was over 20 years ago. When Hyypia was our captain, he felt the responsibility weighed him down and his performances suffered so we gave the captaincy to Gerrard. He actively wanted, and thrived, off the responsibility. And it worked out quite nicely.

Tbh I'm never a fan of an attacking player having the captaincy, it should always be a centre back or centre midfielder. Even in a team of experienced internationals. It's just the order of things.

Edit: from the outside looking in I'm actually shocked Odegaard is your captain. I assumed it was Saliba or Rice.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Tbh I'm never a fan of an attacking player having the captaincy, it should always be a centre back or centre midfielder. Even in a team of experienced internationals. It's just the order of things.

I'm old school like this too and couldn't agree more with this paragraph. The best captains have always led from the back in this sport IMO and I'd always go for a defensive player over a creative player if given the choice.

But regarding his current poor form, I don't think the responsibility he shoulders as captain is the direct cause of it. Conversely I also don't think we are doing him any favours by burdening him with all this responsibility while also dealing with his drop in form and trying to pull himself out of his rut singlehandedly, as a leader would be expected to.

Odegaard is an extremely creative player. I've described him as reminding me of some sort of tortured artist and we all know creative people need their space to re-discover themselves once in a while.

He's not going to get this as a captain, especially in an Arteta team. He'll play every game playable and be expected to keep leading the team from the front, even when their are other players who could give the team another dimension, which is clearly needed with our struggles to breakdown low blocks

In short, for a young team that is struggling with it's identity and with the immense pressure every player is under to bring back the glory days to the club, Odegaard was quite a poor choice as captain. I admit it improved his game initially but as expectations have grown (and have stayed largely unmet), he was always going to struggle as most creative players would with this unnecessary burden.

If Arteta had been a more experienced coach, he would have never made this mistake from the onset as I also agree that taking it away from him now, especially when he hasn't come out of his rut, would be quite damaging to his psyche, unless he fully agrees with it like your Hypia example.

[Marc Overmars]

There is a certain precedent but it requires both parties to be on board. And it was over 20 years ago. When Hyypia was our captain, he felt the responsibility weighed him down and his performances suffered so we gave the captaincy to Gerrard. He actively wanted, and thrived, off the responsibility. And it worked out quite nicely.

Tbh I'm never a fan of an attacking player having the captaincy, it should always be a centre back or centre midfielder. Even in a team of experienced internationals. It's just the order of things.

Edit: from the outside looking in I'm actually shocked Odegaard is your captain. I assumed it was Saliba or Rice.

I feel like Rice is definitely cut from the same cloth as Gerrard in that sense. The way he speaks and carries himself, is that of a textbook captain. Odegaard is the Norway captain too so he must have some desirable traits and by all accounts he is a model pro, but yeah he isn’t my captain if it were my choice.

Rice is a shoe-in for captain if Odegaard were to leave though and I also think he will succeed Kane if he decides to pack it in after the World Cup.

[Letters]

I think Odegaard has been a pretty good captain.
Rice would be better, but I don’t think Odegaard should be stripped of it.

[Niall_Quinn]

You've no idea have you?

Odegaard ALWAYS takes the ball then gives it to Saka when the pel is ready to be taken - why? because that way he takes any heat from opposition players wanting to put off the taker, while Saka can quietly think about the pel - a very captain-like act don't you think?

Odegaard also makes sure newer/younger players are looked after and quietly goes about his business but does have words with other players when he needs to - just because he doesn't go around with his chest puffed out and bellowing at people, a la Rice, doesn't mean he isn't a good captain - in fact it's the oppostie it shows he keeps his head, which surely is what a captain should do...?

He's off form atm and does annoy me with some of the things he does/doesn't do with the ball, but this stuff about the captaincy is just BS from moronic cavemen

No, I'm saying he SHOULD have taken the pen! He's the captain! Step up. I don't care if it's some sort of silly thing they do - they shouldn't do it. If we have babies in the team then replace them. Anyway, if what you say is true - which I doubt - it obviously fucked us up. Saka is a shite pen taker - he should never be taking pens. I knew he'd miss it, mostly because it was never a pen in the first place and I think those things kind of work out regardless of interference from the officials.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think Odegaard has been a pretty good captain.
Rice would be better, but I don’t think Odegaard should be stripped of it.

He's been shit. Just stating the facts. Great player who often has long spells where he loses his focus and becomes a shit player. Not good AT ALL for a captain. Can't lead by example.

[Niall_Quinn]

I find Odegaard lacks confidence and because of that rarely takes responsibility in attempting to get the team playing and moving up the pitch with any vigour. He’s still a good presser but I think he is capable of doing a lot more in the final third than he actually does. He’s in a funk so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt because he has shown what he can do in previous seasons, but his tendency to overplay is frustrating and definitely doesn’t help our already weak front line. Captain or not you want your most talented players to be able to play off the cuff when needs be but I don’t think Odegaard does that.

Absolutely. If he could just screw his head on and play with more directness he'd be a weapon. And he's done that in spells in the past. Right now though it's 50 touch Odegard and it breaks up our game horribly.

[Niall_Quinn]

As much as I’d prefer Rice as captain, I tend to agree in that I think if you just strip someone of the captaincy like that,it is going to create resentment that won’t go.

As for signing someone else, I think we probably need cover in that area if nothing else as we clearly were lacking when he was injured

You don't strip him of the captaincy - you appoint a new captain. That's different. It's not a punishment, it's selecting the best man for the job. These aren't girlies in a popularity contest, this is professional sport.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You don't strip him of the captaincy - you appoint a new captain. That's different. It's not a punishment, it's selecting the best man for the job. These aren't girlies in a popularity contest, this is professional sport.



If you’re arguing that it’s worth creating Ill will with Odegaard to make Rice captain, that’s one thing but you would have to be basically saying you’re prepared to sell him…because if you say to him “you haven’t done anything wrong I just think this guy would make a better captain than you” and expecting that he will be philosophical about it…well you really don’t know much about people.

[Mac76]

No, I'm saying he SHOULD have taken the pen! He's the captain! Step up. I don't care if it's some sort of silly thing they do - they shouldn't do it. If we have babies in the team then replace them. Anyway, if what you say is true - which I doubt - it obviously fucked us up. Saka is a shite pen taker - he should never be taking pens. I knew he'd miss it, mostly because it was never a pen in the first place and I think those things kind of work out regardless of interference from the officials.

I don't know why you doubt it, because they do it all the time, it's quite obviously deliberate

And yes I knew as I wrote it there was a comeback that Saka's pel was poor but that's not to say the tactic is wrong, normally his pels are very good

And as for it being Ode's responsibility to take it as captain, sorry but you must know that's rubbish, the vast majority of takers aren't the captain, they pick the guy best for the job

Personally I did think it was a pel also

[HCZ_Reborn]

It is a pel, but at the same time you almost never see them given in the premier league, but in UEFA I think they are a bit stricter with players doing wrestling moves on each other in the box during set pieces.

Also captain taking a pel? I don’t remember Tony Adams or Patrick Vieira ever taking one (outside of a shootout). It’s normally your top scorer. It’s not to say a captain can’t take it, Fabregas would take them for us for a couple of years but had nothing to do with his role as captain.

Saka is a good pel taker, he’s missed what two in two years. I love the fact that despite missing the pel in the Euros he stood tall and takes them for us, he also took one in the pel shootout against Switzerland. Shows character

[Letters]

When I first started going to Arsenal Dixon was our pel taker for some reason.
Then he missed a couple so it changed.
And yeah, it’s almost never the captain who takes them.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Umm. You know we drew both league games before the two Real games, right?
I understand a bit of frustration but I'd finding the depth of it a bit weird in the context of a long since dead league campaign and a CL semi-final to think about.

I don't think you can keep relying on that but we'll soon find out.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't think you can keep relying on that but we'll soon find out.

Maybe not, but there is a measurable difference between playing premier league teams and playing European sides that want to play on the front foot and control possession

I think if the result is the same as it was when we played PSG in October, I think we are through to the final in Munich

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't know why you doubt it, because they do it all the time, it's quite obviously deliberate

And yes I knew as I wrote it there was a comeback that Saka's pel was poor but that's not to say the tactic is wrong, normally his pels are very good

And as for it being Ode's responsibility to take it as captain, sorry but you must know that's rubbish, the vast majority of takers aren't the captain, they pick the guy best for the job

Personally I did think it was a pel also

I'm talking about that particular situation - right ther - CL vs Real, who better than the captain to step up. If he's a captain. Which he isn't. You know what I'm saying. I'm not talking about tactics for the season, I'm talking about owning the captaincy in the moments where a captain really means something. Most of the the time it doesn't. Captain is the man in front, going over the top. He'll take the first bullet. Instead, play some silly game where you pretend to go over the top, then hand the baton to a kid who you push by the arse up the ladder. Very undignified really, even if that's not the intention.

[Niall_Quinn]

If you’re arguing that it’s worth creating Ill will with Odegaard to make Rice captain, that’s one thing but you would have to be basically saying you’re prepared to sell him…because if you say to him “you haven’t done anything wrong I just think this guy would make a better captain than you” and expecting that he will be philosophical about it…well you really don’t know much about people.

Why would a professional feel ill will if his boss came along and made necessary changes? Is this the "human nature" thing again? Well that's nice at a dinner party. Professional sport though. Do players sulk if they don't get selected, like Nwaneri? He was "the man" when Saka was out, now he's the substitute. Should we sell him?

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think you can keep relying on that but we'll soon find out.

Face it, we always "find out" what we already predicted. These drop-offs in level have always cost us, even with the Invincibles, the same shit was going on during that era too. It's something Liverpool haven't allowed this season, and City in the season before them. It marks winners from losers. Glorious failure was a well know laments around here for years. Glorious because we finally stepped up. Failure because we fucked it before we even began.

Now I think we are MUCH stronger than PSG and I think they have several Mbappes in their team - players with a rep that is thoroughly underserved. And I think Rice and Co will walk all over them - shame about Partey being missing because that would seal the deal. But they do have that beardy bloke, can't recall his name, who is every bit as good as Rice and will do the same hob as him. And maybe even more because he's probably better going forward. And they have their own Saka too, though not quite as good. But good enough. So our lot will have to be at 100%. If they can go for zero (Palace) to 100 then we're golden. If we can't then what a shame we made our own bed.

[IBK]

Why?

I'm genuinely interested to know why people think this is so important.

Late to this, but I have 4 reasons why finishing second is important.

1. We have been 'nailed on' in second place for a while - in a season where the traditional challengers have been pretty shocking. To lose this position having been well clear of the rest would represent a capitulation. This is never a good look or feel, whatever the surrounding circumstances.

2. A team with aspirations to win the league should treat every game as important and look to win it. The league was won a few weeks ago. This doesn't mean that we should not fight to secure the best finish possible - ie 2nd.

3. Similarly, a team with our aspirations wants to be able to compete on all fronts. Falling off an established position in the league because we are in the final stages of the CL indicates an inability to do this - which is counter to this objective.

4. Like I said in the post you were responding to, our team at its best is all about focus and control. This is not something that we should be looking to switch on and off, it should be a constant. Winning games; keeping leads; doing what is needed to get over the line is a habit. Failing to do so dents confidence and security. Our 'line' since 6 weeks ago has been second.

I've said that I don't think the Palace game will set the pattern for tomorrow night and next week. But we need (1) to address the drawing habit that has done for our title challenge this season, and (2) show that we have the resolve not to allow our leage position to fall away at the death.

[Mac76]

Late to this, but I have 4 reasons why finishing second is important.

1. We have been 'nailed on' in second place for a while - in a season where the traditional challengers have been pretty shocking. To lose this position having been well clear of the rest would represent a capitulation. This is never a good look or feel, whatever the surrounding circumstances.


I don't think people will see that, apart ofc from the snarling end of the media and some opposition fans

Anyone fair-minded will take into account the dreadful decisions and injuries which have cost us so many points. And if we win the CL by beating Real, PSG and Barca no-one will credibly be able to say we aren't a good team

The thing we're most culpable of is not reinforcing the squad in the right areas in the summer and then in January, that's got nothing to do with spirit or attitude and everything to do with poor recruitment


2. A team with aspirations to win the league should treat every game as important and look to win it. The league was won a few weeks ago. This doesn't mean that we should not fight to secure the best finish possible - ie 2nd.



If they have a deeper and fully-fit squad yes, but not under these circumstances.




3. Similarly, a team with our aspirations wants to be able to compete on all fronts. Falling off an established position in the league because we are in the final stages of the CL indicates an inability to do this - which is counter to this objective.


Again without a bigger and better-fashioned squad, competing on all fronts is unrealistic




4. Like I said in the post you were responding to, our team at its best is all about focus and control. This is not something that we should be looking to switch on and off, it should be a constant. Winning games; keeping leads; doing what is needed to get over the line is a habit. Failing to do so dents confidence and security. Our 'line' since 6 weeks ago has been second.


The whole confidence/momentum argument has no credibilty. The team has proved that they can play scrappy draws in the PL and then have the confidence to make Real Madrid look like Sheffield Wednesday in the games that really count

[IBK]

I don't think people will see that, apart ofc from the snarling end of the media and some opposition fans

Anyone fair-minded will take into account the dreadful decisions and injuries which have cost us so many points. And if we win the CL by beating Real, PSG and Barca no-one will credibly be able to say we aren't a good team

The thing we're most culpable of is not reinforcing the squad in the right areas in the summer and then in January, that's got nothing to do with spirit or attitude and everything to do with poor recruitment



If they have a deeper and fully-fit squad yes, but not under these circumstances.



Again without a bigger and better-fashioned squad, competing on all fronts is unrealistic



The whole confidence/momentum argument has no credibilty. The team has proved that they can play scrappy draws in the PL and then have the confidence to make Real Madrid look like Sheffield Wednesday in the games that really count

Mac - my comments were not intended as a criticism of Arsenal's EPL season so much as a response to Letters about why I think retaining second place is important.

We have endured bad luck with injuries and decisions this season, but the simple fact is that even now we are 5 points clear in second, so I do not think these factors are relevant to my comments about retaining what we have - particularly as we are in a better place now with player fitness than we were at the end of January - when we were also 5 points clear.

There is no reason why we cannot secure 2nd place, and I don't think my comments re aspirations are misplaced. I dispute that a team like Arsenal should not aspire to compete on all fronts.

And I don't agree with your comments re confidence and momentum. The point about our CL performances is something of a red herring. It's a cup comp in which we have done well for sure, but I don't want to see a team that can only reach levels in 'big games', nor one that picks and chooses when to turn it on. Our season, and league title challenge has been blighted by too many draws, and too many points dropped from winning positions. Our progress in the CL does not change this. It is beyond doubt that winning is a habit, and confidence is drawn from knowing you can see games out, and pick up maximum points regularly. We all lamented our previous seasons when we dropped off from February. 2022/3 and 2023/4 saw us improve this bad habit. We all want to push on in the league from this season. Failing to secure a second place that we have retained for most of this season despite things going against us is not a great starting point.

[Letters]

Late to this, but I have 4 reasons why finishing second is important.

1. We have been 'nailed on' in second place for a while - in a season where the traditional challengers have been pretty shocking. To lose this position having been well clear of the rest would represent a capitulation. This is never a good look or feel, whatever the surrounding circumstances.

2. A team with aspirations to win the league should treat every game as important and look to win it. The league was won a few weeks ago. This doesn't mean that we should not fight to secure the best finish possible - ie 2nd.

3. Similarly, a team with our aspirations wants to be able to compete on all fronts. Falling off an established position in the league because we are in the final stages of the CL indicates an inability to do this - which is counter to this objective.

4. Like I said in the post you were responding to, our team at its best is all about focus and control. This is not something that we should be looking to switch on and off, it should be a constant. Winning games; keeping leads; doing what is needed to get over the line is a habit. Failing to do so dents confidence and security. Our 'line' since 6 weeks ago has been second.

I've said that I don't think the Palace game will set the pattern for tomorrow night and next week. But we need (1) to address the drawing habit that has done for our title challenge this season, and (2) show that we have the resolve not to allow our leage position to fall away at the death.
I can see most of those arguments, I just don't think any of them are as important as you and some others are making out.
Number 3 in particular - context is important here. We mathematically aren't in the title race now but in practice haven't been in one for a couple of months now. A bit of pragmatic prioritisation of games is understandable. Multiple examples have been provided from past seasons when we did that and ended up with the trophy.
I'll be a bit annoyed if we don't finish 2nd, but it hasn't been a 2 horse race this year, in reality there hasn't been a race.
Finish 4th and win the CL or finish 2nd and don't? It's a no brainer.
Gut feeling is we won't win the CL, in that context slipping from 2nd would be even more disappointing, but for me it wouldn't add that much to the disappointment of this complete shitshow of a season anyway. Only the CL can rescue it now.

[IBK]

I can see most of those arguments, I just don't think any of them are as important as you and some others are making out.
Number 3 in particular - context is important here. We mathematically aren't in the title race now but in practice haven't been in one for a couple of months now. A bit of pragmatic prioritisation of games is understandable. Multiple examples have been provided from past seasons when we did that and ended up with the trophy.
I'll be a bit annoyed if we don't finish 2nd, but it hasn't been a 2 horse race this year, in reality there hasn't been a race.
Finish 4th and win the CL or finish 2nd and don't? It's a no brainer.
Gut feeling is we won't win the CL, in that context slipping from 2nd would be even more disappointing, but for me it wouldn't add that much to the disappointment of this complete shitshow of a season anyway. Only the CL can rescue it now.

Fair enough. FWIW even I don't see holding on to 2nd as the be all and end all, but as Arteta has exemplified, marginal gains are important, as are good and bad habits. As is winning mentality. The latter dictates that even if we have failed to win the league, we should be aiming to finish as high as possible.

I'm not so sure that the Palace performance was as much a 'pragmatic prioritisation of games' as much as a lack of focus on that one. You can say with justification that players are human, and psychologically the PSG tie was foremost in their minds. However Palace did not appear distracted by their own, sooner, semi, and I do not doubt that Arteta was unhappy with his team's apparent distraction/lack of focus.

Your no brainer point is valid - noone will care about dropping from 2nd if we win the CL, but like you, my heart says we won't. And this exemplifies my overlying point, really. One reason I have doubts about our ability to win the CL is that under Arteta we have failed (with the one FA Cup exception) to get over the line to win trophies, and often turned in disappointing performances when it really counts - at the sharp end. It's the 'fookin' estandards' isnt it, and dropping off 2nd place at the death doesn't really match Arteta's criteria.

It's like an athlete in the 100m final. You wouldn't expect the runner in second place to ease off just because (s)he is beaten to first. You would expect them to fight for silver, and take that into the next race. Small margins maybe but not without importance.

[Mac76]

Mac - my comments were not intended as a criticism of Arsenal's EPL season so much as a response to Letters about why I think retaining second place is important.

We have endured bad luck with injuries and decisions this season, but the simple fact is that even now we are 5 points clear in second, so I do not think these factors are relevant to my comments about retaining what we have - particularly as we are in a better place now with player fitness than we were at the end of January - when we were also 5 points clear.

There is no reason why we cannot secure 2nd place, and I don't think my comments re aspirations are misplaced. I dispute that a team like Arsenal should not aspire to compete on all fronts.

And I don't agree with your comments re confidence and momentum. The point about our CL performances is something of a red herring. It's a cup comp in which we have done well for sure, but I don't want to see a team that can only reach levels in 'big games', nor one that picks and chooses when to turn it on. Our season, and league title challenge has been blighted by too many draws, and too many points dropped from winning positions. Our progress in the CL does not change this. It is beyond doubt that winning is a habit, and confidence is drawn from knowing you can see games out, and pick up maximum points regularly. We all lamented our previous seasons when we dropped off from February. 2022/3 and 2023/4 saw us improve this bad habit. We all want to push on in the league from this season. Failing to secure a second place that we have retained for most of this season despite things going against us is not a great starting point.

There's every reason why we might not secure it, namely a thin squad, some not fully fit, and the nwed to prioritise a competition of huge prestige which we've never won before, a lot of people on here have completely unrealistic expectations given the season we've had

The reason i think second could slip is we have some very difficult games v Liverpool and Newcastle who have nothing else to play for.

Especially v Newcastle I'd want some key players left out of that, given how they get away with gratuitous violence on the pitch on a weekly basis

[KSE Comedy Club]

Late to this, but I have 4 reasons why finishing second is important.

1. We have been 'nailed on' in second place for a while - in a season where the traditional challengers have been pretty shocking. To lose this position having been well clear of the rest would represent a capitulation. This is never a good look or feel, whatever the surrounding circumstances.

2. A team with aspirations to win the league should treat every game as important and look to win it. The league was won a few weeks ago. This doesn't mean that we should not fight to secure the best finish possible - ie 2nd.

3. Similarly, a team with our aspirations wants to be able to compete on all fronts. Falling off an established position in the league because we are in the final stages of the CL indicates an inability to do this - which is counter to this objective.

4. Like I said in the post you were responding to, our team at its best is all about focus and control. This is not something that we should be looking to switch on and off, it should be a constant. Winning games; keeping leads; doing what is needed to get over the line is a habit. Failing to do so dents confidence and security. Our 'line' since 6 weeks ago has been second.

I've said that I don't think the Palace game will set the pattern for tomorrow night and next week. But we need (1) to address the drawing habit that has done for our title challenge this season, and (2) show that we have the resolve not to allow our leage position to fall away at the death.

:gp: excellent.