Do you still want Wenger as Arsenal manager?

[Kano]

Instead of saying Wenger is directly linked to profit, I should have said he is the root of all of the profit we make.

The stadium move was down to his brilliance in the transfer market, and everything about our premier 'product' our business offers (the team) is down to his actions.

He's been here 14~ years and helped shape the club from top to bottom, in the way we're viewed as well as smaller things like fitness, style of play, attractiveness to fans and so on. He's far more influential than some marketing director who decides what stance Theo should be in as he poses for the new shirt.

Not sure how difficult it is to understand why a manager entirely in charge of a club's vision gets far more importance, influence and control than what you'd term a 'low level director' (those of which we also have, and probably decide what colour the urinals in the stadium toilets are).

well the marketing comparison was due to your initial statement, so in the context of your original post, it fits.

what you seemed to have misread was the point about his position in the grand scheme of decision making for the club strategy every year. if you read my posts you'd see i'd say that he is not in 'full control', as the other poster i was debating this with was suggesting. i'm not sure why you are stuck on the term 'lower level director' which in the pecking order of power at the club, he is. the ceo, the owner(s) and the chairman would control business decisions first and foremost whilst wenger would be asked his opinion.

he has influence and control of other areas of the club of course, that has been made very clear but anyone that thinks kroenke and usmanov would be handing over the full set of keys to wenger, are barmy.

[Power n Glory]

That's a fair and reasonable assessment which stands a chance of being right in the real world, unlike all this "madman" and "megalomaniac" BS. So if Wenger goes how much will really change? It's inevitable the new coach would have a lot less influence over the board, and if we accept the board is partially to blame for our problems then the upshot of Wenger's removal is what? The cancer will still exist at the heart of the club. I've started to review Wenger's comments this summer from a perspective other than, "Wenger Out!", and I think he's talking to us in the only way he can given undoubted constraints. Now I might be delusional myself but I'm going with my gut instinct and in the end I'm not for the board, I'm not for Wenger, I'm for the club - Arsenal. And it's my belief we have some seriously bad'uns in the boardroom now. Toffs who have already cashed in and shouldn't even be there plus an absent owner who knows fuck all about the club and wouldn't have invested at all if his intention wasn't to get back more than he's put in. Wenger's got much to answer for too, no doubt, but I'd trust him over these Etonian fucks and the American any day.

There is a flip side to this. What if the board have been taken in by Wenger's 'monorail' song and dance?

With his appointment, the infrastructure of the club has totally changed. They've taken risks with huge investments off the back of this one guy. They've put all their eggs in one basket and set out a long term plan that would take years to fulfil. Like the fans, like the players, they could have been sold a dream by Wenger and Dein. But as the years have passed, we've seen the players lose faith, now the fans are losing it, when will the board start to wobble? It will take them a long time to cut their ties with Wenger and they need him more than he needs them.

They can't screw him around and treat him like an idiot. If he walks and they're screwed. They know very little about football and depend heavily on Wenger's insight and knowledge. They screwed Dein over and lumped more of the responsibility on to Wenger. What do they know about the value of a player or wages? They can't even negotiate good sponsorship deals. It's probably why guys like Gazidis and Stan have been drafted in. They need more people that can help steer this ship and actually know what to do when Wenger is gone. If they sack him or rock the boat then they are screwed. Or so they think.

The board are just as incompetent. I don't think they've jumped on board to bleed the club dry and make a fast getaway. Some may be jumping ship now, but I wouldn't say it was the original plan. I just think they put too much trust in Wenger and as long as we're still competitive, they won't sack him. Well, the old board wouldn't. But, you do have a point. It is a serious worry to see what happens when Wenger is gone and silent Stan sitting in charge. But....Stan is a Sports man and owns Franchises in the good old USA. We can take comfort in that.

[Coney]

This but people seem to think if Wenger goes were going to get some world class manager who will spalash out Millions and Millions on Players.

Nothing much will change if Wenger goes unless this board goes too.

And there's the rub. If Wenger cannot buy top players because the board won't go along with the price/wages that are needed in order to get the player, replacing Wenger will make no difference. We could replace him with a manager who would be happy to buy the lesser players suggested but would that make the team more successful or leave us trying to get a Europa league place every year. I want us to be contending for the PL title and the CL - if a choice, I want the CL - and that means that we have to buy those players which, rumour has it, we can't get because the board won't sanction the wage they demand. I guess that might be a factor in Nasri not having signed.

[Power n Glory]

And there's the rub. If Wenger cannot buy top players because the board won't go along with the price/wages that are needed in order to get the player, replacing Wenger will make no difference. We could replace him with a manager who would be happy to buy the lesser players suggested but would that make the team more successful or leave us trying to get a Europa league place every year. I want us to be contending for the PL title and the CL - if a choice, I want the CL - and that means that we have to buy those players which, rumour has it, we can't get because the board won't sanction the wage they demand. I guess that might be a factor in Nasri not having signed.

I just don't think that's true. You've got the quote from a former board member talking about Wenger's natural cautious approach and Dein getting Wenger in a position to feel comfortable spending money. Since Dein has left, we've really gone down hill with the signings. It's not the board stopping Wenger from buying. How many quotes will it take to see this? Former board members, board members, Wenger himself.....we have direct quotes from these guys but people are choosing to believe a story from an unnamed source with no quotes.

If Wenger is powerless to change the wage structure, then how was he able to get Henry on that final big contract? Same goes for Fabregas? How comes we were able to buy Sol Campbell and put him on that £100 a week contract? The wages could be a problem but so far we're not even getting past the stage of agreeing a transfer fee.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I just don't think that's true. You've got the quote from a former board member talking about Wenger's natural cautious approach and Dein getting Wenger in a position to feel comfortable spending money. Since Dein has left, we've really gone down hill with the signings. It's not the board stopping Wenger from buying. How many quotes will it take to see this? Former board members, board members, Wenger himself.....we have direct quotes from these guys but people are choosing to believe a story from an unnamed source with no quotes.

If Wenger is powerless to change the wage structure, then how was he able to get Henry on that final big contract? Same goes for Fabregas? How comes we were able to buy Sol Campbell and put him on that £100 a week contract? The wages could be a problem but so far we're not even getting past the stage of agreeing a transfer fee.

Then you have Dein who says AW is the best man for the job still, Or is he just saying it to be nice in the problems we have.

On the 2nd boled part i agree with, but you have to remember we were at Highbury or have just moved, so bended the transfer structure was ok. No now where wages are silly and 100K is like a starting point these days. we can't offer 170k like a chelsea or the mancs or city.

[Power n Glory]

Then you have Dein who says AW is the best man for the job still, Or is he just saying it to be nice in the problems we have.

On the 2nd boled part i agree with, but you have to remember we were at Highbury or have just moved, so bended the transfer structure was ok. No now where wages are silly and 100K is like a starting point these days. we can't offer 170k like a chelsea or the mancs or city.

Of course Dein is going to say Wenger is the best man for the job. Dein and Wenger are friends. Wenger was out on Dein's yacht for his summer holiday. What else is he going to say? He doesn't like the old board, he introduced Stan and the Blob to Arsenal and who knows, maybe Dein is on his way back with Stan in charge.

For me, I don't think Wenger is right for the job millions or broke. Besides back room finance stuff, he makes too many tactical errors. I don't trust him to sort out the team even if we had millions to spare.

[Niall_Quinn]

There is a flip side to this. What if the board have been taken in by Wenger's 'monorail' song and dance?

With his appointment, the infrastructure of the club has totally changed. They've taken risks with huge investments off the back of this one guy. They've put all their eggs in one basket and set out a long term plan that would take years to fulfil. Like the fans, like the players, they could have been sold a dream by Wenger and Dein. But as the years have passed, we've seen the players lose faith, now the fans are losing it, when will the board start to wobble? It will take them a long time to cut their ties with Wenger and they need him more than he needs them.

They can't screw him around and treat him like an idiot. If he walks and they're screwed. They know very little about football and depend heavily on Wenger's insight and knowledge. They screwed Dein over and lumped more of the responsibility on to Wenger. What do they know about the value of a player or wages? They can't even negotiate good sponsorship deals. It's probably why guys like Gazidis and Stan have been drafted in. They need more people that can help steer this ship and actually know what to do when Wenger is gone. If they sack him or rock the boat then they are screwed. Or so they think.

The board are just as incompetent. I don't think they've jumped on board to bleed the club dry and make a fast getaway. Some may be jumping ship now, but I wouldn't say it was the original plan. I just think they put too much trust in Wenger and as long as we're still competitive, they won't sack him. Well, the old board wouldn't. But, you do have a point. It is a serious worry to see what happens when Wenger is gone and silent Stan sitting in charge. But....Stan is a Sports man and owns Franchises in the good old USA. We can take comfort in that.

Reasonably argued. You could be right, I could be right, more likely we're both partly right and partly way off the mark. That's the trouble with this club, they keep everything tight. But the question is, should Wenger keep his job? Which also implies another question, should he be sacked? The season has started, there's a few days left in the transfer window, the pressure is being piled on the club. Personally (I mean not that anybody of consequence is waiting to see how I jump, but I'm part of the mass called the fans and so my opinion is one of the drops that makes the ocean) I don't want to be part of that pressure for two reasons.

First, hitting the self destruct button now makes no sense at all. If Wenger was going to leave it should have been at the end of last season when the team scandalously collapsed. That was completely unacceptable and grounds for and manager to be removed. But it didn't happen and now is certainly not the time to be talking about changing the manager. I hear people say, I hope we lose to Udinese, I hope we sign no players and Wenger is sacked, I hope we finish outside the top four. This is frustration I suppose but it would also be totally counter-productive. Why are we pissed off? Because we can't win, because there's no stability. So when some fans go to far and say let's lose and let's kick the manager out and get anyone in, this isn't good for the club, this doesn't give us stability and this doesn't help us to win. These are the things we claim we want but blowing up the club is not going to get them.

Second, I don't like some of the bedfellows I'd have to lie with if I seriously joined the gathering witch hunt for Wenger's head. Poxy journalists, pathetic pundits, opposition fans looking for amusement, pretty much all the tossers in the world I wouldn't have a drink with. If Wenger has to go it should not be at the hands of pricks like this, run out in some media frenzy with the added indignity of some Arsenal fans running with the mob. If we join this we say Wenger is worthless and has done nothing for the club, we say he deserves to be humiliated, hounded, made fun of in the media, discussed like he's an idiot around breakfast tables staffed by slimy journalists who pretend to have an ounce as much dignity or integrity as Wenger. It's not just Wenger, I wouldn't see it happen to any good man because it's just wrong.

And say we did this, ran Wenger out of the club and destroyed him in the process. What if we woke up in the morning and discovered it had been the board all along? That these are the bastards who have exploited the club and run it into the ground for their own gain. I don't know for sure but which seems more reasonable, that Wenger would run the club down through sheer arrogance and the board would sit there and let him do it, or the board itself has run the club down because along came Stan and they saw their chance to cash in big time? Remember, Stan has been taking over this club for a long time, it didn't all start happening last year.

Like I said, I'm wrong, you're wrong, we're both partly right - time may tell. But I'm not jumping on any bandwagon in the meantime because I feel the club is in enough trouble already and could probably do better with my support right now rather than me sticking a boot in. Plus the guys genuinely seemed to try on Saturday and even though they fucked it up in the end I appreciated that effort. It's been a while coming but I'm not going to ignore it when it arrives.

[Letters]

So basically you say you want him sacked, but you're not actually sure.

He should have been sacked for the collapse at the end of last season.


So everytime you tell us you think he should be sacked, it's not really true.

No. I said he should have been sacked for the end of last season. I'll keep repeating that if you like.


Your argument makes more sense now, that's fair enough and up to you but you can't keep saying you said you wanted him sacked when actually you're not sure he should be.

Again, HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED FOR THE END OF LAST SEASON. Is that clear enough?

But I don't believe that the mess in the transfer market this summer is ALL his doing.
I don't believe that someone new will come in and we will inevitably do better or start throwing money around because I think there are other things going wrong that changing manager won't fix.
That's where I'm conflicted. There are some reasons why I think he should be sacked, other reasons why I'm not sure that changing manager would fix all our problems and might actually make things worse. And please don't say "how could it be worse?" We're going to be in a real battle for top 4 this year but not in a relegation battle.


Sounds to me like you're behind him and want him to stay.

It sounds like you don't understand my position at all. You seem to think that just because I think he should have been sacked for the collapse last season that means I can't defend him at all. I'll defend him against people who I think are overly disrespectful or criticise EVERYTHING he does or says.

[Syn]

He should have been sacked for the collapse at the end of last season.



No. I said he should have been sacked for the end of last season. I'll keep repeating that if you like.



Again, HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SACKED FOR THE END OF LAST SEASON. Is that clear enough?

But I don't believe that the mess in the transfer market this summer is ALL his doing.
I don't believe that someone new will come in and we will inevitably do better or start throwing money around because I think there are other things going wrong that changing manager won't fix.
That's where I'm conflicted. There are some reasons why I think he should be sacked, other reasons why I'm not sure that changing manager would fix all our problems and might actually make things worse. And please don't say "how could it be worse?" We're going to be in a real battle for top 4 this year but not in a relegation battle.



It sounds like you don't understand my position at all. You seem to think that just because I think he should have been sacked for the collapse last season that means I can't defend him at all. I'll defend him against people who I think are overly disrespectful or criticise EVERYTHING he does or says.

To be honest, I don't know why you keep blindly praising Wenger. The fact that you don't think Wenger should've been sacked for the end of last season sums it all up really.

[fakeyank]

First, hitting the self destruct button now makes no sense at all. If Wenger was going to leave it should have been at the end of last season when the team scandalously collapsed. That was completely unacceptable and grounds for and manager to be removed. But it didn't happen and now is certainly not the time to be talking about changing the manager. I hear people say, I hope we lose to Udinese, I hope we sign no players and Wenger is sacked, I hope we finish outside the top four. This is frustration I suppose but it would also be totally counter-productive. Why are we pissed off? Because we can't win, because there's no stability. So when some fans go to far and say let's lose and let's kick the manager out and get anyone in, this isn't good for the club, this doesn't give us stability and this doesn't help us to win. These are the things we claim we want but blowing up the club is not going to get them.

Dont know about others but I am pissed because we dont TRY and I cant emphasize the TRY part enough. If we tried to win, made the necessary changes then I will stand by the manager, team and anyone in their right mind but when you dont see them giving a F, then the patience runs out. It would be different if this was a problem only this season.. Its been the same every season for the last 4-5 years. Big Changes need to be made and they cant come off the back of us scrapping a narrow win into CL. That would only give more credence to qualifying for CL is like a trophy BS by Wenger.

Every season, it is the same crap.. we will strenghten for sure. So far, we have sold our experienced and/or best players and not got anyone in... Why should I not be pissed? I am specially pissed now coz the transfer window closes in 10 days. Why is it that we fans have to compromise and be ok with the club taking us for a fool? When is the club going to run for the fans? I support all the negaitvity around the club right now.. if we want change from the boardroom down then this is needed!

[selassie]

New manager: Arsene I want to sign "Atopplayer"
Arsene: How old is he
New manager: 26
Arsene: Do you not think he's a bit old, it doesn't make a lot of sense economically
New manager: He's got quite a few years left Arsene and is already a top player who has delivered at the highest level
Arsene: What about the future, we need to build for the future...do you think he will still be around
New manager: I don't see why not Arsene he's got a fair few years and will most likely play on into his 30's
Arsene: We don't like keeping players in their 30's, will he accept a pay cut and one year contract
New manager: I'm not sure Arsene
Arsene: Is he super quality?
New manager: I'm not sure what you mean Arsene, but he's top class and has performed in the CL and was great at the World Cup and has also been consistently good in Spain
Arsene: How much will he cost, we can't buy players for 50 million you know
New manager: He's available for 16 million Arsene, I know it seems a lot but he's proven at the highest level
Arsene: You can make them an offer of up to 8.2 million but start at 5 so you can bid up, we don't want to spend more than that as we have to live in the real world and we have many young players which we don't want to kill
New manager: I'm not sure we'll get him for that Arsene
Arsene: We've got all summer, just keep negotiating and we'll get him at the right price, the deal needs to be right for Arsenal
New manager: If you say so Arsene

:lol:

[Letters]

To be honest, I don't know why you keep blindly praising Wenger. The fact that you don't think Wenger should've been sacked for the end of last season sums it all up really.

<_<

He has compromising photos of me tbh.

[fakeyank]

But I don't believe that the mess in the transfer market this summer is ALL his doing.

So who is to blame for the transfer shambles last summer and the summer before and the summer before...?

Who is to blame for our defence being a joke?

Who is responsible for us playing tippy tappy bollocks?

Why arent our strikers never attacking the box?

Why do we have players that are the most injury prone?

Why was Rosicky given a new contract after he was injured for 4 years?

Why is Squillaci here?

Why does he play Bendtner on the wings? Why was Eduardo played on the wings?

All these questions have very little to do with money being spent but as to how crap of a football manager he is or has become. Just for these reasons, he needs to be fired and if you add to it his reluctance to spend and strenghten, he needs to be fired, rehired and fired again- just to bang in the point that he is FIRED!

[Power n Glory]

Reasonably argued. You could be right, I could be right, more likely we're both partly right and partly way off the mark. That's the trouble with this club, they keep everything tight. But the question is, should Wenger keep his job? Which also implies another question, should he be sacked? The season has started, there's a few days left in the transfer window, the pressure is being piled on the club. Personally (I mean not that anybody of consequence is waiting to see how I jump, but I'm part of the mass called the fans and so my opinion is one of the drops that makes the ocean) I don't want to be part of that pressure for two reasons.

First, hitting the self destruct button now makes no sense at all. If Wenger was going to leave it should have been at the end of last season when the team scandalously collapsed. That was completely unacceptable and grounds for and manager to be removed. But it didn't happen and now is certainly not the time to be talking about changing the manager. I hear people say, I hope we lose to Udinese, I hope we sign no players and Wenger is sacked, I hope we finish outside the top four. This is frustration I suppose but it would also be totally counter-productive. Why are we pissed off? Because we can't win, because there's no stability. So when some fans go to far and say let's lose and let's kick the manager out and get anyone in, this isn't good for the club, this doesn't give us stability and this doesn't help us to win. These are the things we claim we want but blowing up the club is not going to get them.

Second, I don't like some of the bedfellows I'd have to lie with if I seriously joined the gathering witch hunt for Wenger's head. Poxy journalists, pathetic pundits, opposition fans looking for amusement, pretty much all the tossers in the world I wouldn't have a drink with. If Wenger has to go it should not be at the hands of pricks like this, run out in some media frenzy with the added indignity of some Arsenal fans running with the mob. If we join this we say Wenger is worthless and has done nothing for the club, we say he deserves to be humiliated, hounded, made fun of in the media, discussed like he's an idiot around breakfast tables staffed by slimy journalists who pretend to have an ounce as much dignity or integrity as Wenger. It's not just Wenger, I wouldn't see it happen to any good man because it's just wrong.

And say we did this, ran Wenger out of the club and destroyed him in the process. What if we woke up in the morning and discovered it had been the board all along? That these are the bastards who have exploited the club and run it into the ground for their own gain. I don't know for sure but which seems more reasonable, that Wenger would run the club down through sheer arrogance and the board would sit there and let him do it, or the board itself has run the club down because along came Stan and they saw their chance to cash in big time? Remember, Stan has been taking over this club for a long time, it didn't all start happening last year.

Like I said, I'm wrong, you're wrong, we're both partly right - time may tell. But I'm not jumping on any bandwagon in the meantime because I feel the club is in enough trouble already and could probably do better with my support right now rather than me sticking a boot in. Plus the guys genuinely seemed to try on Saturday and even though they fucked it up in the end I appreciated that effort. It's been a while coming but I'm not going to ignore it when it arrives.

Yes, I agree with you on that one. I want Wenger to go, but now isn't the right time. We're at the start of the season and this all should have been sorted in the summer. But, I hope the board start looking for his replacement now so we know what needs to be done next summer or when his contract comes to an end.

For his own sake, I hope he really goes for it this season. He's never won the Champions League, never won back to back titles and he needs to do that to be remembered as one of the true greats. Besides the stadium, the football and domestic titles, the invincible squad, I want him to be remembered for winning all honours and dominating the Prem. That looks unlikely to happen and going out like this would be a real bitter pill to swallow. It really shouldn't end like this and he does deserve a better exit but he has to pull himself together or it's another case of looking at the worst case scenario.

[Letters]

I'm not going to go through that list but we've finished top 4 FY. Every year. That isn't a crap manager at work.
If you think that's easy then how come pretty much no other manager has done that. Fergie has but that's it. Plenty of managers have spent a LOT of money trying to displace us and failed.

[Niall_Quinn]

<_<

He has compromising photos of me tbh.

Everyone has those, you post them on the Internet FFS.

[Boss]

he needs to be fired, rehired and fired again- just to bang in the point that he is FIRED!

The Bengali Apprentice :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Power n Glory]

I'm not going to go through that list but we've finished top 4 FY. Every year. That isn't a crap manager at work.
If you think that's easy then how come pretty much no other manager has done that. Fergie has but that's it. Plenty of managers have spent a LOT of money trying to displace us and failed.

It's not as if we're keeping elite managers at bay here. Our opponents have managers that have never won a league and don't know what it takes. Wenger is a double winner, he should be able to keep these guys at bay because these guys aren't on his level. But head to head against guys that have experienced the same sort of success, it doesn't look so good.

[fakeyank]

I'm not going to go through that list but we've finished top 4 FY. Every year. That isn't a crap manager at work.
If you think that's easy then how come pretty much no other manager has done that. Fergie has but that's it. Plenty of managers have spent a LOT of money trying to displace us and failed.

Jose did it the years he was here and yes, the time is coming. I was hearing on Fox Soccer Channel that up until 2005, we had never come below 2nd under AW but since then we have slowly slid down the table with 3rd and 4th positions. In 2009, we were lucky Villa screwed up and in Lasagne gate year, we were thankful to the chefs at Tottenham's hotel. Do you see the steady decline? Dont get me wrong, AW was very good... he came in with fresh ideas n philosophy and it took a while for the other managers to catch up but guess what? The other managers have caught up and evolved.. Arsene hasnt done that yet.

The whole dimension of football has changed with sugar daddies.. Arsene still thinks he can win trophies with this bunch of toddlers but is it really going to happen? You know the answer and so do I. So if he cant win us trophies, its time we looked for someone else..

[Coney]

Jose did it the years he was here and yes, the time is coming. I was hearing on Fox Soccer Channel that up until 2005, we had never come below 2nd under AW but since then we have slowly slid down the table with 3rd and 4th positions. In 2009, we were lucky Villa screwed up and in Lasagne gate year, we were thankful to the chefs at Tottenham's hotel. Do you see the steady decline? Dont get me wrong, AW was very good... he came in with fresh ideas n philosophy and it took a while for the other managers to catch up but guess what? The other managers have caught up and evolved.. Arsene hasnt done that yet.

The whole dimension of football has changed with sugar daddies.. Arsene still thinks he can win trophies with this bunch of toddlers but is it really going to happen? You know the answer and so do I. So if he cant win us trophies, its time we looked for someone else..

The spud problem was not the chefs, it was a bug going round members of the team who caught it from each other in training.

[Letters]

It's not as if we're keeping elite managers at bay here. Our opponents have managers that have never won a league and don't know what it takes. Wenger is a double winner, he should be able to keep these guys at bay because these guys aren't on his level. But head to head against guys that have experienced the same sort of success, it doesn't look so good.

I'd say that's fairly reasonable, but the point is Wenger is at that level. Not many managers are.
People act on here as if he's this bumbling idiot. If we replace him then unless we get another manager at that level, and there aren't that many around, then it's not going to fix all our problems.

[Letters]

Jose did it the years he was here

Jose and his half a billion pounds. But yes, he is a top manager and capable of similar success. Not many are.


and yes, the time is coming. I was hearing on Fox Soccer Channel that up until 2005, we had never come below 2nd under AW but since then we have slowly slid down the table with 3rd and 4th positions

2005 was before Chelsea's money started to seriously have an effect, and now City are getting in on the act.


Do you see the steady decline?

No, because there isn't one. Or hasn't been one so far. We were lucky to finish 4th in the lasagna year, I'll give you that. But after that we got steadily better for a couple of years. Since then there has been decline again and last season we were about where we were in 2006. So it's not been a steady decline, it's been stagnation. If you drew a graph from 2006 to 2001 it would be flatline (with a slight improvement in the middle). There has NOT been a steady decline.

That said we are very weak this season and I do think this could be the year when we finish outside the top 4. Which brings us back to the transfer dealings this summer and whether that is entirely Wenger's fault or whether the board have a hand in it too. I suspect they do, and I seriously doubt Wenger can't see the obvious flaws in the squad that you and I can see.

As for other managers evolving, to an extent other clubs have caught up with training methods, diet and worldwide scouting. But the sides who will finish in the top 3 this year have thrown silly money around. That isn't evolving or catching up, the fact that City are where they are shows you can do it with any team.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think saving a few million in transfers here and there would have impacted on the finances we needed to move grounds, secondly yes Wenger has helped change the infrastructure of the club for the better but I say so what?...he's not Atlas holding up the world......the club would continue without him, Arsene Wenger is not Arsenal he serves at the pleasure of the club. Success in business as well in football comes with ruthlessness, you wouldn't hesitate to move on a player who had been pinnacle to the success of the club if he was no longer able to hack it.




Instead of saying Wenger is directly linked to profit, I should have said he is the root of all of the profit we make.

The stadium move was down to his brilliance in the transfer market, and everything about our premier 'product' our business offers (the team) is down to his actions.

He's been here 14~ years and helped shape the club from top to bottom, in the way we're viewed as well as smaller things like fitness, style of play, attractiveness to fans and so on. He's far more influential than some marketing director who decides what stance Theo should be in as he poses for the new shirt.

Not sure how difficult it is to understand why a manager entirely in charge of a club's vision gets far more importance, influence and control than what you'd term a 'low level director' (those of which we also have, and probably decide what colour the urinals in the stadium toilets are).

[Master Splinter]

To be honest, I don't know why you keep blindly praising Wenger. The fact that you don't think Wenger should've been sacked for the end of last season sums it all up really.

:haha:

[Coney]

Jose and his half a billion pounds.

Don't exaggerate. It was only a third of a billion pounds so clearly he had a real struggle to find players.

[Boss]

Mourinho spent 11M a season net while he was at Chelsea.

Yep.

[Boss]

I don't think saving a few million in transfers here and there would have impacted on the finances we needed to move grounds, secondly yes Wenger has helped change the infrastructure of the club for the better but I say so what?...he's not Atlas holding up the world......the club would continue without him, Arsene Wenger is not Arsenal he serves at the pleasure of the club. Success in business as well in football comes with ruthlessness, you wouldn't hesitate to move on a player who had been pinnacle to the success of the club if he was no longer able to hack it.

Not sure what you're arguing as I want Wenger to gtfo too. :shrug:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Mourinho spent 11M a season net while he was at Chelsea.

Yep.

What difference does that make (not that I believe it)? It doesn't mean they didn't spend anything.

Even if you are correct, when you consider the losses they have made, well then that indicates their wages have been on a ridiculous level (something we probably already know).

[Coney]

Mourinho spent 11M a season net while he was at Chelsea.

Yep.

That's as maybe, but Abramovich spent hundreds of millions.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I tend to think the people that voted yes in this poll are more inclined to do so because of the risk involved of getting rid of AW and not an immediate replacement on the horizon rather than actually believing in what he is doing for the club and believing he is taking us in the right direction.

My personal belief is if we go out of Europe (champions league) on Wednesday and this is followed by defeats to United and a failure to bring in fresh players....than the fans will have turned against him and then Ivan Gazidis must be a man of his word and get rid of Arsene

My personal choice for a replacement would be to try and bring in Louis Van Gaal until the end of the season, and then depending on how he does either appoint him full time or find a long term replacement for Summer 2012.

[Boss]

Mourinho spent 11M a season net while he was at Chelsea.

Yep.

Never mind as this is wrong, I'll :getcoat:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Never mind as this is wrong, I'll :getcoat:

A well earned :doh:.

[Letters]

:pal:

I don't know how much he spend but it doesn't really matter. Chelsea had already spent shitloads to get where they were. He pushed them over the line and that is because he's a brilliant manager. Point is Chelsea and City wouldn't be above us were it not for the money. I'm not sure that even needs debating, it's obviously true.

[Kano]

Mourinho spent 11M a season net while he was at Chelsea.

Yep.

that sounds like a mad stat. he spent quarter mill in three seasons, so how is that figure so low?


ah, just seen.

[Boss]

The 11M per season figure net was for Fergie, not Mourinho, over the last 5 years.

My bad. :shrug:

[Coney]

The 11M per season figure net was for Fergie, not Mourinho, over the last 5 years.

My bad. :shrug:

11 million? That's one hell of a wine bill.

[-Xs-]

:pal:

I don't know how much he spend but it doesn't really matter. Chelsea had already spent shitloads to get where they were. He pushed them over the line and that is because he's a brilliant manager. Point is Chelsea and City wouldn't be above us were it not for the money. I'm not sure that even needs debating, it's obviously true.

I always thought the Mourinho effect was overstated; had we not just gone a season unbeaten, they would have won it. In a way, we have never truly recovered from when that run came to an end. The collapse that seemed a prelude of what was to come...

[Power n Glory]

I'd say that's fairly reasonable, but the point is Wenger is at that level. Not many managers are.
People act on here as if he's this bumbling idiot. If we replace him then unless we get another manager at that level, and there aren't that many around, then it's not going to fix all our problems.

You've got to admit, he makes some real odd statements that makes him look bad. At the moment, we look stale and a new manager could fix our problems, on the field at least. I don't watch enough of the other leagues to name another top manager that can take over from Wenger and I suspect that's the same for most fans. But that doesn't mean they don't exist and wouldn't want a chance to coach one of the best clubs in the world.

[Letters]

Can't argue with any of that :good:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

The 11M per season figure net was for Fergie, not Mourinho, over the last 5 years.

My bad. :shrug:

Selling a player for £80 million is a pretty big anomaly though. :lol:

[Maestro]

I want him gone, a year ago tbh. The problem is him leaving now is not maybe the wisest idea, with the season upon us n' all. A new manager will not have sufficient time to make the changes. Let him stay the season and then leave at the end.

Wenger has been great for this club, but imo he has gone stale and the game has passed him by. Strictly from a football point of view, I no longer think he is capable to deliver any more trophies.

As thoroughly argued in this thread, the board must take their fare share of the blame but that in no way can excuse some of Wenger's decisions over the last few years:


1. Retaining the services of Eboue, Denilson, Manuel, Rosicky as long as he has done and back them to the hilt in the face of clear evidence to the contrary regards their contribution.

2. Persistence in playing players out of position, negating their effectiveness and in turn the team suffers. Bendtner, Theo, Arshavin, Eduardo, Eboue (flying right winger) all in attacking positions, all detrimental to our potency as an attacking force ...especially when the chips are down.

3. Knowing full well of our deficiencies in attack and defence ...going out and purchasing super quality like Squid & Chamkah, telling us they are actually football players. Those two transfers should be fully investigated.

4. Abject failure to coach the team defensive responsibility, when the ball is lost ..seems simple right, well it's not so!

5. Abject failure to consistently motivate the team, and instill a strong mentality especially when required in the big decisive moments of the season.

I could go on, but over the last few seasons he has made some bad decisions and failed in some basic requirements of his job for a coach befitting his status as a top manager, and this club's status as team expected to realistically challenge and win some silverware.

From a football point of view alone (i.e things under his control as manager), I think he's past it at the top level ...he's lost the edge required to a be champion again.

[Mr. Lahey]

That's a fair and reasonable assessment which stands a chance of being right in the real world, unlike all this "madman" and "megalomaniac" BS. So if Wenger goes how much will really change? It's inevitable the new coach would have a lot less influence over the board, and if we accept the board is partially to blame for our problems then the upshot of Wenger's removal is what? The cancer will still exist at the heart of the club. I've started to review Wenger's comments this summer from a perspective other than, "Wenger Out!", and I think he's talking to us in the only way he can given undoubted constraints. Now I might be delusional myself but I'm going with my gut instinct and in the end I'm not for the board, I'm not for Wenger, I'm for the club - Arsenal. And it's my belief we have some seriously bad'uns in the boardroom now. Toffs who have already cashed in and shouldn't even be there plus an absent owner who knows fuck all about the club and wouldn't have invested at all if his intention wasn't to get back more than he's put in. Wenger's got much to answer for too, no doubt, but I'd trust him over these Etonian fucks and the American any day.

Niall,

Being from North America and knowing a thing or two about Kronke, I can honestly say he doesnt run his professional teams in the way you are suggesting he is. Kronke has a history of building competitve teams and also has a history of sanctiong the sacking many coaches when they havent been performing. I think he is going to give Wenger a chance this season to prove himself and if he doesnt deliver he will get the axe. Ive never seen Wenger in the state he was in after the Liverpool match. That was a man whos feeling the pressure I say. He looked looked rattled and flustered. I think we will see his (Kronke) true intentions shortly. However I do think he is a prick for not piping up about his vision for the club.

[Niall_Quinn]

Niall,

Being from North America and knowing a thing or two about Kronke, I can honestly say he doesnt run his professional teams in the way you are suggesting he is. Kronke has a history of building competitve teams and also has a history of sanctiong the sacking many coaches when they havent been performing. I think he is going to give Wenger a chance this season to prove himself and if he doesnt deliver he will get the axe. Ive never seen Wenger in the state he was in after the Liverpool match. That was a man whos feeling the pressure I say. He looked looked rattled and flustered. I think we will see his (Kronke) true intentions shortly. However I do think he is a prick for not piping up about his vision for the club.

All that's possible ML, but where is this guy? He's just bought one of the premier clubs in England, a club which is swirling around the bowl and heading down, but Stan is nowhere. He's put no money in, made no mention of his plans, his ambitions, WTF? You have to assume the worst when an owner shows such absolute disregard for his purchase, you have to assume his intentions lie beyond the football and the team and the fans. I hate the guy already and I don't know anything about him. That might sound dumb but I have a feeling a lot of fans are going to end up feeling the same way. Perhaps he's done well over in the States but he's comprehensively failed to get a handle on what it takes to run a club over here. Has there been any news your side about how he raised the money to buy out the old farts? If the fans had a clearer idea of where the money was coming from and some guarantees there would be investment beyond the pockets of the greedy tossers who are bailing, that might be something at least.

[AKBapologist]

Not sure he wanted to control Arsenal, more like a favor for a dying friend. Clearly doesn't seem that interested enough to be around and involved and with all those other clubs he owns one would think his attention would be diluted.

Say what you want about abramovic, but never have fans thought he was disinterested in the club for long.

[Mr. Lahey]

All that's possible ML, but where is this guy? He's just bought one of the premier clubs in England, a club which is swirling around the bowl and heading down, but Stan is nowhere. He's put no money in, made no mention of his plans, his ambitions, WTF? You have to assume the worst when an owner shows such absolute disregard for his purchase, you have to assume his intentions lie beyond the football and the team and the fans. I hate the guy already and I don't know anything about him. That might sound dumb but I have a feeling a lot of fans are going to end up feeling the same way. Perhaps he's done well over in the States but he's comprehensively failed to get a handle on what it takes to run a club over here. Has there been any news your side about how he raised the money to buy out the old farts? If the fans had a clearer idea of where the money was coming from and some guarantees there would be investment beyond the pockets of the greedy tossers who are bailing, that might be something at least.

I completely agree with your point here and this is why i dont think he has said much or done anything substantial in regards to the club yet. I think he is sitting, watching and learning how to successfully run a proper football team. I dont think he wants to come in and start changing everything in sight as that would be no good for anybody involved. I think we will see him give Wenger this year to show him that hes the right guy and that his way is the proper way (i dont think Wenger will last though and will get his marching orders as the manager at the end of the season).


As far as how Kronke got the money...well I know he is a real estate mogul and has married into the Walmart family. Coincedently he owns pretty much all the real estate surrounding most Walmart stores. He was worth 2.6 Billion last year but that is as much as i know. If JensFace was still around Im sure he would know more about him, maybe GB does. What I can tell you is that the Colorado Mammoth, Colorado Avalanche and the St Louis Rams have all won championships in their respective leagues. He also owns the Denver Nuggets who up until the last year (their best player became a free agent) were very much on the up and were making alot of moves to be one of the top teams in the NBA.


As much as he is a businessman hes obviously a sports fan and does invest alot into his team. Im hoping with whats happening at the club right now, we will hear something from him soon.

[Joker]

I expect the "No's" to pick up this week.

[Cripps_orig]

The 16 :pal:

[Niall_Quinn]

The 16 :pal:

The "16" are thinking beyond the media frenzy of a sacking and asking what comes next? Can a new manager be found in the next 3 days, will he still have time to build his squad? The chance to get rid of Wenger expired at the end of last season and will not realistically come around again until the end of this one - unless we plan to sink even lower which I suppose is a possibility.

[IBK]

I completely agree with your point here and this is why i dont think he has said much or done anything substantial in regards to the club yet. I think he is sitting, watching and learning how to successfully run a proper football team. I dont think he wants to come in and start changing everything in sight as that would be no good for anybody involved. I think we will see him give Wenger this year to show him that hes the right guy and that his way is the proper way (i dont think Wenger will last though and will get his marching orders as the manager at the end of the season).


As far as how Kronke got the money...well I know he is a real estate mogul and has married into the Walmart family. Coincedently he owns pretty much all the real estate surrounding most Walmart stores. He was worth 2.6 Billion last year but that is as much as i know. If JensFace was still around Im sure he would know more about him, maybe GB does. What I can tell you is that the Colorado Mammoth, Colorado Avalanche and the St Louis Rams have all won championships in their respective leagues. He also owns the Denver Nuggets who up until the last year (their best player became a free agent) were very much on the up and were making alot of moves to be one of the top teams in the NBA.


As much as he is a businessman hes obviously a sports fan and does invest alot into his team. Im hoping with whats happening at the club right now, we will hear something from him soon.

I dunno. Maybe he can see what a hole AFC has got itself into, potentially with a manager who has become too powerful at the club and is simply being cautious about approaching a very very difficult transition.

[Özim]

The "16" are thinking beyond the media frenzy of a sacking and asking what comes next? Can a new manager be found in the next 3 days, will he still have time to build his squad? The chance to get rid of Wenger expired at the end of last season and will not realistically come around again until the end of this one - unless we plan to sink even lower which I suppose is a possibility.
Our problems are totally of our own making, should have been sacked at the start of the summer to be honest, never happened and because of that we find ourselves where we are now.

I'd rather get a new manager to sort out what we have and then buy players in January than to keep this guy and go through another season of disappointment and no decent signings.

[selassie]

I want him gone. I don't think things could get any worse with a new manager irrespective of who it is.

Anyhow it looks to me like he's lost control of some of the remaining senior players that we still have (RVP, Arshavin?).

[Alan B'stard]

rumour: black scarf march at swansea game

[Niall_Quinn]

rumour: black scarf march at swansea game

You sure the old buffers won't start boasting about the sartorial elegance of the fan base?

[fakeyank]

rumour: black scarf march at swansea game

Where did you hear this?

[Alan B'stard]

Where did you hear this?

from your mum.

[fakeyank]

from your mum.

##

[Niall_Quinn]

LOL, Fergie's just been on to make it 17 votes to keep.

[Alan B'stard]

##

heh.

ok seriosuly. just social networking chatter

[Sirjackofwilshere]

I want Wenger to stay unless the lack of spending can be unquestionably pinned down to him. I have a bad feeling about Kroenke and the old twats on our board looking to make a quick buck and if the turmoil falls on Wengers head then so be it. What if he leaves and we find out the board have been masquerading and tightening the strings to make a bigger profit whilst Wenger takes the flak??

[Power n Glory]

No top manager loses 8 - 2 to their rival. It just doesn't happen. How the fuck are the players going to recover from such an embarrassing affair?

Let this ride out until he totally embarrasses himself and decides to walk. We can't sack him now because we don't have anyone that can come in and repair the damage right away. But while there are still people out their supporting this clown and believing the board are the main culprits, let him stay on until all the doubters are convinced that this guy is past it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Rooney just voted - that makes 18.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Lack of signings is only half the problem though, in fact i'd say it's less than half.....it's the total tactical ineptitude.......you bring in all the players you want but if you can't drill a team to defend properly, press the ball better....be more decisive and clinical in front of goal than you don't deserve to manage a team

[Cripps_orig]

No top manager loses 8 - 2 to their rival. It just doesn't happen. How the fuck are the players going to recover from such an embarrassing affair?

Let this ride out until he totally embarrasses himself and decides to walk. We can't sack him now because we don't have anyone that can come in and repair the damage right away. But while there are still people out their supporting this clown and believing the board are the main culprits, let him stay on until all the doubters are convinced that this guy is past it.

We didnt lose to our rivals 8-2 either tbh

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No top manager loses 8 - 2 to their rival. It just doesn't happen. How the fuck are the players going to recover from such an embarrassing affair?

Let this ride out until he totally embarrasses himself and decides to walk. We can't sack him now because we don't have anyone that can come in and repair the damage right away. But while there are still people out their supporting this clown and believing the board are the main culprits, let him stay on until all the doubters are convinced that this guy is past it.

Agree he made this mess let him fix it.

Lets be real thought UTD are not are rivals anymore, and tbf that was the best team he could put out scary.

When you see the likes of Coquenly starting in a game like that, you start to wonder how many we could get tonked by.

especially with no tv 5

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

i don't buy this who is more to blame the board or wenger game, the two are one and the same, wenger is not only the manager he might as well as be on the board as he sits on all the board meetings...........if it were possible i'd get rid of the entire lot of them, flush that fat turd hill-wood and his cronies down the toilet.......send silent stan back to the mid-west and ownership transfered to responsible shareholders who run the club as a sustainable business that lives within it's mean and turns a profit with reasonable expenditure to create on the field gain that will please the fan base, bring more fans in from abroad and make the club more profitable.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You don't get someone whose hungover and in a state to clean up their own vomit off the floor, they will probably end up being more sick and creating more mess, in many ways it is our mess we as supporters have been too passive, too patient....sitting on our hands prepared to wait until this inevitable debacle occured so we are as responsible now for cleaning up, we need to make it clear that the supporters not only want the manager gone, but the board as well.........Kroenke needs to put up, or fuck off!

[Power n Glory]

Agree he made this mess let him fix it.

Lets be real thought UTD are not are rivals anymore, and tbf that was the best team he could put out scary.

When you see the likes of Coquenly starting in a game like that, you start to wonder how many we could get tonked by.

especially with no tv 5

No, make no mistake. I'm not saying he's the only man that can fix this. If I thought there was a possibility of a top manager coming in to replace him on short notice then I'd be all for giving Wenger the boot tomorrow morning.

I'm saying, Wenger should have to sit through this campaign and suffer the consequences if he's prepared to walk this path. The prospect of being sacked is nothing, watching everyone turn on him and call him out for being a sham of a manager is much worse. It's the walk of shame and if he keeps going on like this he's going to really ruin his reputation and I'd have no sympathy for him. This is pure fucking arrogance. Even with a weakened team, he refused to play a defensive game and went and tried to attack United. He refused to adapt to the situation and it's why he's being left behind. The train wreck we just saw, the poor decision making, bad judgement, lack of vision...etc is why I blame him for the summer fiasco and our ludicrous policies. It all links up. He doesn't want to change and soon the board will have to force a confrontation because 4th spot is under threat. Money is on the line.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't want to watch this kind of dross week in, week out in some misguided attempt to rub wenger's nose in his own shit

Louis Van Gaal is available

[Cripps_orig]

Keep Wenger til October.

Pray Turkey dont qualify for the Euros

Get Hiddink then.

Wenger :wave:

[Power n Glory]

I don't want to watch this kind of dross week in, week out in some misguided attempt to rub wenger's nose in his own shit

Louis Van Gaal is available

I don't want to either, but if he's going to act the compete and utter prick, this is where it's going. It's going to be an embarrassing end to his Arsenal career if he doesn't get a grip and I'll have no sympathy for him. He's being selfish and showing a total disregard to the players and the fans.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No, make no mistake. I'm not saying he's the only man that can fix this. If I thought there was a possibility of a top manager coming in to replace him on short notice then I'd be all for giving Wenger the boot tomorrow morning.

I'm saying, Wenger should have to sit through this campaign and suffer the consequences if he's prepared to walk this path. The prospect of being sacked is nothing, watching everyone turn on him and call him out for being a sham of a manager is much worse. It's the walk of shame and if he keeps going on like this he's going to really ruin his reputation and I'd have no sympathy for him. This is pure fucking arrogance. Even with a weakened team, he refused to play a defensive game and went and tried to attack United. He refused to adapt to the situation and it's why he's being left behind. The train wreck we just saw, the poor decision making, bad judgement, lack of vision...etc is why I blame him for the summer fiasco and our ludicrous policies. It all links up. He doesn't want to change and soon the board will have to force a confrontation because 4th spot is under threat. Money is on the line.

Nah i agree PnG, today he should have gone defensive, he set his team to get spanked, its as it he knew he would loose and thought feck it might as well loose in style.

The reason why i say he should fix this mess is, id rather he tries to get us back to where we were, so that a new manager does not need to do a major rebuild.

He has 3 days imo to try and salvage something if he don't then the sooner they sack him and the board the better.

[Alias]

19 complete morons

[Power n Glory]

He has until Wednesday. We can't fuck about now. Letting it ride out until the end of the season is too damaging. He doesn't have the capacity to turn this around. This rot didn't start yesterday. We were a shambles last season and it just got worse. He's still showing total defiance in the face of the media and fans, he knew exactly what was required of him last season and he's done nothing except make it worse.

He can't be allowed to continue. We'll be left in serious bad shape if he sees out this season. Fan attendance will drop, players like RVP, Theo and Verm won't renew their contracts and he'd have badly damaged the fitness and mental health of many of our young players. He's crocked Wilshere because he's played him in too many games and then tries to rush him back from injury for the CL tie, which results in another few weeks out injured. The confidence of players like Jenkinson, Coquelin and Oxlade took a pummelling and if they have to keep playing under such conditions, he'll sap away their confidence. Our defence must feel like shit this morning, they learnt fuck all in preseason and it shows.

How far down the abyss will he take us until he's moved on? This is damaging stuff stuff guys. He's not the man for the job anymore. I hope Stan steps in and sorts the situation out quickly. Wenger said the new owner shouldn't interfere with the day to day running of the club. That is why I think Stan has stayed out of it so far. But if this continues he has to step in and give him his marching orders. Someone has to throw the towel in to stop this guy from going on. It's far too painful. It's like watching an old and past it Muhammad Ali taking a complete beating in the ring at the hands of a prime Larry Holmes, but coming out after the fight insisting he'a still the 'greatest' and has the skill to continue on. One fight too many done him serious damage, you start to look past the deluded old fool thinking he's still got it and start to wonder about the characters around the washed up, battered champ. Who has the balls to tell him the show is over?

[selassie]

He has until Wednesday. We can't fuck about now. Letting it ride out until the end of the season is too damaging. He doesn't have the capacity to turn this around. This rot didn't start yesterday. We were a shambles last season and it just got worse. He's still showing total defiance in the face of the media and fans, he knew exactly what was required of him last season and he's done nothing except make it worse.

He can't be allowed to continue. We'll be left in serious bad shape if he sees out this season. Fan attendance will drop, players like RVP, Theo and Verm won't renew their contracts and he'd have badly damaged the fitness and mental health of many of our young players. He's crocked Wilshere because he's played him in too many games and then tries to rush him back from injury for the CL tie, which results in another few weeks out injured. The confidence of players like Jenkinson, Coquelin and Oxlade took a pummelling and if they have to keep playing under such conditions, he'll sap away their confidence. Our defence must feel like shit this morning, they learnt fuck all in preseason and it shows.

How far down the abyss will he take us until he's moved on? This is damaging stuff stuff guys. He's not the man for the job anymore. I hope Stan steps in and sorts the situation out quickly. Wenger said the new owner shouldn't interfere with the day to day running of the club. That is why I think Stan has stayed out of it so far. But if this continues he has to step in and give him his marching orders. Someone has to throw the towel in to stop this guy from going on. It's far too painful. It's like watching an old and past it Muhammad Ali taking a complete beating in the ring at the hands of a prime Larry Holmes, but coming out after the fight insisting he'a still the 'greatest' and has the skill to continue on. One fight too many done him serious damage, you start to look past the deluded old fool thinking he's still got it and start to wonder about the characters around the washed up, battered champ. Who has the balls to tell him the show is over?

:gp:

Totally agree.

I think he has to go now, too much damage has been done.

[Ernesto]

Nah, he should walk. He's served his "time", if you will (the licence to do what he likes for a certain amount of time given his trophy return and moving us into a new stadium)

However, if there is NO-ONE questioning his results, if there is NO accountability, then the fans should protest. Wenger Out, no more 'In Wenger We Trust', empty the seats at the Emirates. His PHW and co where it hurts. Show them we're serious. The results are shit, so someone stand up to take the flak. Wenger and the board are so obsessed with this Champions League culture, to being a part of this exclusive G14, that they're probably still head over heels about our result in Italy on Wednesday. They're oblivious to when it really counts, the day-to-day, weekly instalment of the Premiership.

Even if we bring in Martin O Neill FFS, it'll bring a new fervour, a new interest in all things Arsenal. At the minute, we're stuck in a rut. There are teams worse off than us, but I can guarantee you that there have not been any set of fans any more embarrassed than us over events on the field during the last calendar year.