View Full Version : What is the long term ambitionof our club????
Right, so we get a bright shiny new stadium. We're told it is to ensure the long term stability of Arsenal FC. We're told we no have plenty of money available. We're told we're after super quality.
Yet. We sell our two best (ish) players. We scrimp and save every penny we can in the transfers we have made, ditch a load of the youth project players (Vela, Bender, Traore, Denilson etc etc etc) and bring in more experience, but some players on the wane....
What excatly is the long term plan? We were building for the future. Now we're replacing the bricks that fell out. There are some bricks being laid which have no foundation, and some bricks which seem to be building something entirely different.
Far from careful planning, and looking to a bright future we were all promised before the stadium, we now have a owner content on raping the club, a manager who is more concerned with keeping a staus quo rather than pushing us on, and a board who seem spineless and completely out of touch with its fans.
We just seem to be trying to tread water, but the current is actually pulling us under a bit.
This whole thing is a mess. I've no doubt that we'll carry on keeping up with the top four (there or thereabouts) but this club is worth more than that. Some of the shackles need to come off, because we don't look ambitious. We look lost and hanging on to the coat-tails of champions league football.
Where the fuck is this club going??
Letters
01-09-2011, 10:18 AM
It seems to me they're trying to 'compete' best they can while paying off the stadium debt as quickly as possible.
If they can then we could be quite well placed although our commercial dials are poor relative to our competiters and the billionaire owners thing has made it damn near impossible to compete with those teams.
or it could be that we don't really care too much about winning and are just inerested in profits and share prices.
Right, so we get a bright shiny new stadium. We're told it is to ensure the long term stability of Arsenal FC. We're told we no have plenty of money available. We're told we're after super quality.
Yet. We sell our two best (ish) players. We scrimp and save every penny we can in the transfers we have made, ditch a load of the youth project players (Vela, Bender, Traore, Denilson etc etc etc) and bring in more experience, but some players on the wane....
What excatly is the long term plan? We were building for the future. Now we're replacing the bricks that fell out. There are some bricks being laid which have no foundation, and some bricks which seem to be building something entirely different.
Far from careful planning, and looking to a bright future we were all promised before the stadium, we now have a owner content on raping the club, a manager who is more concerned with keeping a staus quo rather than pushing us on, and a board who seem spineless and completely out of touch with its fans.
We just seem to be trying to tread water, but the current is actually pulling us under a bit.
This whole thing is a mess. I've no doubt that we'll carry on keeping up with the top four (there or thereabouts) but this club is worth more than that. Some of the shackles need to come off, because we don't look ambitious. We look lost and hanging on to the coat-tails of champions league football.
Where the fuck is this club going??
I don't think there is a plan any more. We have a manager who clearly wishes to be defined more as a successful company director than a successful football manager, and a majority owner who clearly wants only the path of least resistance to his shareholding increasing in value and realises than he can achive this without silverware.
The club will take action if it percieves its CL place is at threat - but we appear to have conceded our former position to Citeh; Manure and Chelsea with barely a whimper. Waaay back when - I asked whether we were destined to become another Ajax (they have a shiny new stadium too!). I have also asked in the past what it must have felt like for Liverpool fans seeing their glory days slip ever further away after their heyday (and at least they have their 'recent' CL triumph). This reality has never seemed closer.
Its funny - I was going to post a thread today asking whether any of us feel, in hindsight, different about DD and Usmanov. I have stauchly defended the club against both until relatively recently. Now I'm not so sure that they might have been a much better option. Because there is only so much decline that can happen before it becomes impossible to bounce back.
Flavs
01-09-2011, 10:27 AM
Wenger is building a team for the future
Wenger is building a team for the future
Barca's future, and Citeh's future.
Aye, I agree.
Niall_Quinn
01-09-2011, 10:31 AM
I'm not sure anything bar the finances is on a long term plan any more. If I had to guess (which unfortunately we all do because the club never tells us anything) Wenger and the board thought the could absorb the Cesc/ Na$ri losses and that was the plan. Then along comes the Utd disaster and everything went out the window. The mad, panicked buying we have seen in the last few days goes against everything Wenger and the board has been doing over the last few years. Looks like we are in brand new territory and everything to do with the team has been torn up or abandoned. We're on a short term plan now, we must be, with 30 year old players coming in and players that have to vanish for two years in two years. It's very much wait and see, will this new team work on the pitch? Has the ongoing rot finally been halted? Is this a sticking plaster and will we go back to the old and failed plan or is this the first step in a whole new direction? And what will happen behind the scenes now the desperation of the transfer window has passed and there's a little time to take stock? That window was probably the worst handled I've ever seen yet possibly the best rescued too. But they'll have to do a lot better than that in the coming weeks and months. Certainly interesting times ahead. As fans I guess we just sit back and enjoy the ride. At least there's a little more hope now than there was on Sunday evening.
It seems to me they're trying to 'compete' best they can while paying off the stadium debt as quickly as possible.
If they can then we could be quite well placed although our commercial dials are poor relative to our competiters and the billionaire owners thing has made it damn near impossible to compete with those teams.
Letters. I have to put this one to bed. I met the partner from PWC who has done the stadium financing deal over the Summer. He shot me down on this theory big time, by explaining that the bonds cannot be paid off any more quickly - without the club incurring an early repayment penalty that would effertively make any interest saving pointless. Also, the company with the liability for the phased repayment of the bonds is the company to whom all gate receipts go - and match day income is the source of the repayments.
This is the main thing that has made me question Kroenke's intentions for the club. IMO he is a 'custodian' only in the sense of maintaining the status quo and (presumably) insulating the club from the prospect of an investor borrowing further against the club to fund a purchase. I don't think he has any interest in doing more than ensuring the running a profitable business - which he has worked out he can do by maintaining CL football. he is not an Arsenal, or even a 'soccer' fan.
My only faint hope is that part of this treading water is waiting for the financial fair play rules to kick in - but it is a rapidly diminishing one.
Letters
01-09-2011, 10:33 AM
or it could be that we don't really care too much about winning and are just inerested in profits and share prices.
Which, in the modern world, are driven by winning. You don't make profit in mid-table.
I'm not saying they're not interested in money but the two ambitions are at least compatible.
Joker
01-09-2011, 10:35 AM
We're being run purely as a business. So the only things that matter are profits, share prices, ROI, etc etc. Success on the pitch is not really linked to these financial statistics, because as long as we remain in the top 4 and are "prudent" in the transfer market (i.e. don't spend more than we recoup in transfers), the board will be satisfied that we're on a self sustainable course. Football is only secondary these days; this is what "sustainable" means in the eyes of Gazidis, PHW, Wenger etc.
Which, in the modern world, are driven by winning. You don't make profit in mid-table.
I'm not saying they're not interested in money but the two ambitions are at least compatible.
In a sense they are (compatible) - or would be if the clubs ahead of us didn't have the money making part to worry about. In the EPL and in Europe - silverware is only compatible with losing money, and having creditors or sugar daddies happy to absorb the losses.
This is the problem. Arsenal may be a shining light as regards managing its resources properly, but it ain't going to win us anything. And it doesn't feel great as a fan having the so-called moral highground.
Letters
01-09-2011, 10:40 AM
Letters. I have to put this one to bed. I met the partner from PWC who has done the stadium financing deal over the Summer. He shot me down on this theory big time, by explaining that the bonds cannot be paid off any more quickly - without the club incurring an early repayment penalty that would effertively make any interest saving pointless. Also, the company with the liability for the phased repayment of the bonds is the company to whom all gate receipts go - and match day income is the source of the repayments.
Fair enough. Just my thoughts on the accounts I saw whidh I'd be the first to admit I didn't fully understand.
Regardless of the incompetant pricks at the club I am sure they want
A, To win silverware
B, Make some money
Not neccessarily in that order at this momment in time.
Fair enough. Just my thoughts on the accounts I saw whidh I'd be the first to admit I didn't fully understand.
Aye - I agree that paying off the stadium debt would appear to have been the logical reason behind what the club is doing. I was left totally nonplussed by the reality.
Letters
01-09-2011, 10:42 AM
In a sense they are (compatible) - or would be if the clubs ahead of us didn't have the money making part to worry about. In the EPL and in Europe - silverware is only compatible with losing money, and having creditors or sugar daddies happy to absorb the losses.
This is the problem. Arsenal may be a shining light as regards managing its resources properly, but it ain't going to win us anything. And it doesn't feel great as a fan having the so-called moral highground.
We'd have won a trophy or 3 in the last few years had we had the mental resolve to go with our technical ability. Some of our lack of success has been down to lack of investment but that isn't the reason for the complete lack of success. OK, the Carling Cup isn't prestigious these days but it would have got that monkey off our back and us losing the final wasn't for want of ability.
Aye - I agree that paying off the stadium debt would appear to have been the logical reason behind what the club is doing. I was left totally nonplussed by the reality.
What do we need to develop all this other land that has been talked about?? Is some of this cash going towards that??
What do we need to develop all this other land that has been talked about?? Is some of this cash going towards that??
As far as I know, the financial arrangements for this redevelopment (Queensland Road) aren't available, but I know that its due to be completed by 2013, so I guess its possible...(clutches at straws)
Keith
01-09-2011, 11:03 AM
Is part of the problem the fact we've not been taken over yet?
Is part of the problem the fact we've not been taken over yet?
Could be - because we are kind of in limbo with the majority and the next biggest shareholder at odds...
Alan B'stard
01-09-2011, 08:14 PM
Right, so we get a bright shiny new stadium. We're told it is to ensure the long term stability of Arsenal FC. We're told we no have plenty of money available. We're told we're after super quality.
Yet. We sell our two best (ish) players. We scrimp and save every penny we can in the transfers we have made, ditch a load of the youth project players (Vela, Bender, Traore, Denilson etc etc etc) and bring in more experience, but some players on the wane....
What excatly is the long term plan? We were building for the future. Now we're replacing the bricks that fell out. There are some bricks being laid which have no foundation, and some bricks which seem to be building something entirely different.
Far from careful planning, and looking to a bright future we were all promised before the stadium, we now have a owner content on raping the club, a manager who is more concerned with keeping a staus quo rather than pushing us on, and a board who seem spineless and completely out of touch with its fans.
We just seem to be trying to tread water, but the current is actually pulling us under a bit.
This whole thing is a mess. I've no doubt that we'll carry on keeping up with the top four (there or thereabouts) but this club is worth more than that. Some of the shackles need to come off, because we don't look ambitious. We look lost and hanging on to the coat-tails of champions league football.
Where the fuck is this club going??
i thought for a long time that was the aim. generate your own cash and use it to win stuff.
I now realise its a load of shit. the previous board were happy to sit on their shares and invest nothing while wenger showe everyone how badly run football was and looked like a miracle worker - by doing stuff that is now industry standard (diet, training, scounting etc).
Meanwhile london property prices shot up and the club realised it was well placed to become a property developer.
So they borrowed money, turned The Home of Football into flats to flog at a profit, and then gambled even more on a new stadium and more flats on any spare land it can find. WInning stuff became hard with chelsea, City jumping in so they do just enough to get by. However any extra cash gets ploughed into new and more flat building opportunities, not attracting or keeping stars.
Meanwhile, people like dein, lady nina and the Danny Fiszman's estate have made huge profits flogging their shares.
AFC is currently a joke. It has become a property development company with a football club tacked on as an afterthought. Id like to think Kronke has bought it to win stuff, but I suspect he likes all of the above, and thinks he can double its value by improving its merchandising, asia tours, tv deals etc.
maybe he is rational enough to take Usmanov's point - that the sponsorship deals are up for renewal in a few years, and you'll need to be winning stuff by then in order to get top dollar
Realistically that's the point when you might see us push to win something. However if you want to win something every season and see big signings every season, find another club.
If you can be bothered.
notwist
01-09-2011, 09:14 PM
To make money. From you.
Olivier's xmas twist
01-09-2011, 11:18 PM
Right, so we get a bright shiny new stadium. We're told it is to ensure the long term stability of Arsenal FC. We're told we no have plenty of money available. We're told we're after super quality.
Yet. We sell our two best (ish) players. We scrimp and save every penny we can in the transfers we have made, ditch a load of the youth project players (Vela, Bender, Traore, Denilson etc etc etc) and bring in more experience, but some players on the wane....
What excatly is the long term plan? We were building for the future. Now we're replacing the bricks that fell out. There are some bricks being laid which have no foundation, and some bricks which seem to be building something entirely different.
Far from careful planning, and looking to a bright future we were all promised before the stadium, we now have a owner content on raping the club, a manager who is more concerned with keeping a staus quo rather than pushing us on, and a board who seem spineless and completely out of touch with its fans.
We just seem to be trying to tread water, but the current is actually pulling us under a bit.
This whole thing is a mess. I've no doubt that we'll carry on keeping up with the top four (there or thereabouts) but this club is worth more than that. Some of the shackles need to come off, because we don't look ambitious. We look lost and hanging on to the coat-tails of champions league football.
Where the fuck is this club going??
To Arsenal fans it is but to others maybe not so much, what give us the define right to be a top 4 team, we were not before Wenger came but people still loved Arsenal for what we were.
IMO the club is a mess from top to bottom and untill all are singing from the same sheet(players, fans and board) Things will only get worse. We have a board that lies to us, a Manager who protects them and players who should not be wearing the shirt.
I agree the aim is not to win things but to get in the CL and make a profit. I think we will see this year where we are and the ambitions of all. Will Stan show us him ambition at last.
Right now the only way we be sucnessful as the top 3 is if we were taken over by a suga daddy.
gunsofashburtongrove
02-09-2011, 06:54 AM
The stadium was supposed to make us bigger and in long term give us more money. Everything fits into the plan for me getting Wenger,investing in academy and youth and transitioning to a youth in first team policy. How ever since we needed $ up front some of our early deals were piss poor. The bigger money options are not structured favorably and we were not in a position to bargain. Additionally there are few events that we did not plan for
1. The recession which caused us a set back in not being able to sell flats.
2. Chelsea and Shitty with Dollars
& i predict
3. Hoping that FFP rules will bail us out
The feeling that i get is that the intention was good and audacious, but in execution we were/are not very smart, are very old fashioned and very slow. Like marketing in Asia is something we should have done in 04 or 05 when we were at the peak. The debt payment strategy is very conservative and slow. The clubs we are competing with like Manu, Madrid and Barca have extremley agressive management styles we will loose out if we don't change.
In all the Stadium was a great idea, but it was the bare minimum, there are other avenues to generate revenues where we are lacking. BTW the debt we have now is mostly low interest bonds that mature after 20 years. Which means we cant pay off before 20 years.
Alan B'stard
02-09-2011, 07:18 AM
The debt (bonds) we have is £177million at 5.142% fixed until 2029,
plus £50 million at 3m libor+0.22 till 2013 and then rising to 3m libor+0.55.
This debt has a charge over our gate receipts. It is not low interest and it is impossible to pay it off early without incurring hefty early exit penalties. Best we can do is acccumulate cash in a deposit account, net these totals argue that our 'net debt' has been reduced. However if you think about it, that bank account isnt going to earn anything like the interest we are obliged to pay out above.
The debt (bonds) we have is £177million at 5.142% fixed until 2029,
plus £50 million at 3m libor+0.22 till 2013 and then rising to 3m libor+0.55.
This debt has a charge over our gate receipts. It is not low interest and it is impossible to pay it off early without incurring hefty early exit penalties. Best we can do is acccumulate cash in a deposit account, net these totals argue that our 'net debt' has been reduced. However if you think about it, that bank account isnt going to earn anything like the interest we are obliged to pay out above.
:good:
The debt (bonds) we have is £177million at 5.142% fixed until 2029,
plus £50 million at 3m libor+0.22 till 2013 and then rising to 3m libor+0.55.
This debt has a charge over our gate receipts. It is not low interest and it is impossible to pay it off early without incurring hefty early exit penalties. Best we can do is acccumulate cash in a deposit account, net these totals argue that our 'net debt' has been reduced. However if you think about it, that bank account isnt going to earn anything like the interest we are obliged to pay out above.
So basically until our cash deposit account reaches £227mil (for arguments sake) we're stuck.
Alan B'stard
02-09-2011, 10:18 AM
So basically until our cash deposit account reaches £227mil (for arguments sake) we're stuck.
Its worse than that, jim.
Basically You can only kill off this debt by finding out who AFC sold these bonds too, and tempting them into selling them back to the club.
ie: Even if we have 227mill in the bank, that will be earning crap all interest, which we have to pay tax on too.
we will still be paying out more than that in interest each year.
An aside - I remember reading* that Usmanov has been a busy bastard buying up a lot of these bonds on the open market. He then went to the board and offered to tear them up, if they replaced them with new voting shares instead (a 'debt for equity' swap, if you will).
Obviously this means making room in the boardroom for him, and 'diluting' the stakes of the rest of the shareholders.
The PHW/Fiszman/Kronke axis told him to do one. I infer that they would rather run it for themselves as a moneyspinner than let it turn into a rich man's plaything which bankrolls trophies.
To be honest though, neither prospect corresponds to what we think of as traditional football club. Sadly, that vision seems to be incompatible with the game at the highest level nowadays.
* ref: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/5314550/Alisher-Usmanov-offers-to-pay-off-chunk-of-Arsenals-debt.html
Niall_Quinn
02-09-2011, 11:31 AM
The debt (bonds) we have is £177million at 5.142% fixed until 2029,
plus £50 million at 3m libor+0.22 till 2013 and then rising to 3m libor+0.55.
This debt has a charge over our gate receipts. It is not low interest and it is impossible to pay it off early without incurring hefty early exit penalties. Best we can do is acccumulate cash in a deposit account, net these totals argue that our 'net debt' has been reduced. However if you think about it, that bank account isnt going to earn anything like the interest we are obliged to pay out above.
A classic demonstration of why all bankers should be burned. I'm serious, round up the cunts and throw them on a bonfire. Greedy, greedy, eternally greedy bastards. Can you imagine how much these stinking money changers are thieving out of the club over the years? And then add that to shareholder payoffs. A payoff for what? Running the club into a ditch? The lion's share of everything generated is sucked out like the club is suspended in a vacuum. The money changers have created their "loan" out of thin air at zero risk and with hyper usury rates of return (as usual) and the shareholders have put fuck all in and are sucking like fucking leeches. And who owns the stadium when the bloated leeches are finally sated? The fans? Nope, some American bloke. So what, exactly, is in it for the fans?
$amir Na$ri - that's what. Cahsley Cole and his swerving Bentley. Nick, I couldn't score a fucking goal to save my life but thanks for the £52k a week, Bendtner. 8-2 humiliation at Old Trafford?
But look on the bright side, we did get a 29 year old injury victim at the end of his career and the loan of a player nobody else wants. And fine, let's hope they can at least produce some entertainment, at least let's have some of that.
When you look at the bigger picture it makes you wonder where the football fits in any more.
Niall_Quinn
02-09-2011, 11:32 AM
which we have to pay tax on too
LOL, I forgot the mother of all leeches. That giant sucking thing called government.
A classic demonstration of why all bankers should be burned. I'm serious, round up the cunts and throw them on a bonfire. Greedy, greedy, eternally greedy bastards. Can you imagine how much these stinking money changers are thieving out of the club over the years? And then add that to shareholder payoffs. A payoff for what? Running the club into a ditch? The lion's share of everything generated is sucked out like the club is suspended in a vacuum. The money changers have created their "loan" out of thin air at zero risk and with hyper usury rates of return (as usual) and the shareholders have put fuck all in and are sucking like fucking leeches. And who owns the stadium when the bloated leeches are finally sated? The fans? Nope, some American bloke. So what, exactly, is in it for the fans?
$amir Na$ri - that's what. Cahsley Cole and his swerving Bentley. Nick, I couldn't score a fucking goal to save my life but thanks for the £52k a week, Bendtner. 8-2 humiliation at Old Trafford?
But look on the bright side, we did get a 29 year old injury victim at the end of his career and the loan of a player nobody else wants. And fine, let's hope they can at least produce some entertainment, at least let's have some of that.
When you look at the bigger picture it makes you wonder where the football fits in any more.
:crying:
Niall_Quinn
02-09-2011, 11:38 AM
:crying:
Sorry, meant to say... It's on!
Niall_Quinn
02-09-2011, 11:43 AM
Say there was an uprising from the fans and demands for Kroenke to GTFO and Usmanov to come in. The finances might be sorted out but don't the new financial fair play rules stuff us anyway as far as dumping money into the club? We're a bit screwed aren't we, in terms of ever catching City or Utd. The door has shut.
Its worse than that, jim.
Basically You can only kill off this debt by finding out who AFC sold these bonds too, and tempting them into selling them back to the club.
ie: Even if we have 227mill in the bank, that will be earning crap all interest, which we have to pay tax on too.
we will still be paying out more than that in interest each year.
An aside - I remember reading* that Usmanov has been a busy bastard buying up a lot of these bonds on the open market. He then went to the board and offered to tear them up, if they replaced them with new voting shares instead (a 'debt for equity' swap, if you will).
Obviously this means making room in the boardroom for him, and 'diluting' the stakes of the rest of the shareholders.
The PHW/Fiszman/Kronke axis told him to do one. I infer that they would rather run it for themselves as a moneyspinner than let it turn into a rich man's plaything which bankrolls trophies. To be honest though, neither prospect corresponds to what we think of as traditional football club. Sadly, that vision seems to be incompatible with the game at the highest level nowadays.
* ref: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/5314550/Alisher-Usmanov-offers-to-pay-off-chunk-of-Arsenals-debt.html
:gp: and I agree with your inference.
TBH in this brave new money world of football I am starting to wonder what on earth the point of keeping Usmanov out was in the first place. I mean its not as though Kroenke can't damage the club big stylee if he so chooses. (Some would argue that he is already due to his only interest being maintaining/increasing his share value).
Alan B'stard
02-09-2011, 02:04 PM
A classic demonstration of why all bankers should be burned. I'm serious, round up the cunts and throw them on a bonfire. Greedy, greedy, eternally greedy bastards. Can you imagine how much these stinking money changers are thieving out of the club over the years? And then add that to shareholder payoffs. A payoff for what? Running the club into a ditch? The lion's share of everything generated is sucked out like the club is suspended in a vacuum. The money changers have created their "loan" out of thin air at zero risk and with hyper usury rates of return (as usual) and the shareholders have put fuck all in and are sucking like fucking leeches. And who owns the stadium when the bloated leeches are finally sated? The fans? Nope, some American bloke. So what, exactly, is in it for the fans?
$amir Na$ri - that's what. Cahsley Cole and his swerving Bentley. Nick, I couldn't score a fucking goal to save my life but thanks for the £52k a week, Bendtner. 8-2 humiliation at Old Trafford?
But look on the bright side, we did get a 29 year old injury victim at the end of his career and the loan of a player nobody else wants. And fine, let's hope they can at least produce some entertainment, at least let's have some of that.
When you look at the bigger picture it makes you wonder where the football fits in any more.
thats the board who did that, not bankers.
you may as well blame car manufacturers for everyone who gets run over.
At the top of the game it has become so expensive, that you hve two choices
(1) be a well run club who care nothing about winning trophies, but care everything about balancing the books and squeezing money out of every angle they can.
(2) prostitute yourself to a rich person, who can buy as many trophies as you want.
Put it this way, our dads and uncles experience of football was more spontaneous and tribal than ours will ever be now. bankers have nothing to do with that.If you want to blame anyone blame the general public for allowing murdoch to turn it into McFootball.
Maybe this is the result of a truly shit AFC summer but I'm struggling to keep interested these days. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Niall_Quinn
02-09-2011, 02:48 PM
Bankers have been a vile curse on humanity for centuries, they have destroyed everything - even hope. Football is just another casualty in a long line. I'm not saying they directly forced anyone to take their imaginary money, but what they have done is created an all encompassing financial environment that means nothing anywhere moves without paying them their cut.
Where does the principle income originate for any football club? Gate receipts and brand merchandising, plus exploitation of home grown talent or an efficient scouting network. We take the intervention of banks for granted, but what service do they actually perform that warrants their massive return on an imaginary risk? They do nothing, build nothing, enhance nothing. It's the customer funding the club in real terms, we generate the actual wealth. The bankers come along and offer to create money out of thin air at zero risk and hand it to the club in advance of customer receipts. But this comes at the cost of eroding the final revenue by whatever amount of insanely greedy interest the bankers want to leech. We don't need them, we've just allowed them to create the conditions in which they dictate their own indispensability. In that respect I agree, we're to fucking blame for allowing bankers to exist at all - my original point.
As for the cuntish board, by comparison they're just little fish snouting around for a free meal. Filthy pigs it's true, but just another product of the world the bankers have carefully crafted. The stunningly simple but perfectly effective solution is to insist clubs operate on receipts arising from football and only football. Shirt sales would be fine, selling flats? Fuck off, what does that have to do with a football club? Let clubs fail when they run out of money. Pay lower wages, have less fancy stadium, less TV, less of everything. That's football genuinely living within its means. Local lads growing up supporting a club and working through the ranks to score the winning goal at Wembley. That's football, a thing to stir the blood, not some crappy roulette wheel for fat corporate bastards and a blood bank for thieving scum bankers who, if they operated as they do in any other industry would be instantly jailed or hanged. Cunts. Burn them.
Yes, I'm mad. Just like anyone else who suggests the very cosy and convenient arrangements set up by banksters and their cronies is not inevitable, that there really is an alternative - indeed an alternative mankind has actually experienced in the past, not some fanciful leap into the unknown. Every cunt of influence tells us how it has to be, what's rational, immutable, inviolable. And it just so happens these rules and constants are maximised to line their fucking pockets at the expense of everyone else. How fucking convenient.
Yeah, it's the bankers. They are at the root of every fucking evil on this earth. Every last one. It's just not so easy to pick out the individual cases now we are deluged beneath their bullshit. Too big to fail they say. To fucking crooked to live is my motto. Kill the cunts if you want to save football and everything else.
Niall_Quinn
02-09-2011, 02:52 PM
you may as well blame car manufacturers for everyone who gets run over.
I would if the car manufacturers had found a mechanism by which they could force half of us to drive to fast and the other half to jaywalk. Then you might say they were culpable. Who controls the economy from top to bottom? Who pulls money in and let's it out, who creates it from thin air or makes it vanish by tapping a button? Who effectively either forces us to drive too fast or alternatively pushes us into the road, under a bus? Fucking bankers is who. Good job they don't make cars. Then again the cunts don't make anything, only profits (even when their losses are huge). Kill them.
:gp: and I agree with your inference.
TBH in this brave new money world of football I am starting to wonder what on earth the point of keeping Usmanov out was in the first place. I mean its not as though Kroenke can't damage the club big stylee if he so chooses. (Some would argue that he is already due to his only interest being maintaining/increasing his share value).
It's all down to different sorts apparently.
Kroenke was a bad sort that turned good.
Niall_Quinn
02-09-2011, 02:54 PM
It's all down to different sorts apparently.
Kroenke was a bad sort that turned good.
PHW is a man of conviction who cannot be bought, don't you think?
PHW is a man of conviction who cannot be bought, don't you think?
Most definitely football comes first for this man, I'm particularly impressed with his PR skills though, not many would have handled some of the situations as well as he has.
That's why he's universally loved.
Darth Vela
02-09-2011, 03:24 PM
In terms of the team, I think the long term strategy is still to build on a base of bringing the talent through the youth system and supplementing any shortfall in abilities with outside buys; the only way we can try to compete imo and the only way we'll try.
In terms of the financing of the club and all the ownership issues, fuck knows.
Alan B'stard
02-09-2011, 04:19 PM
PHW is a man of conviction who cannot be bought, don't you think?
well people kiss dein's arse but this is the man who pocketted 70 million and put no money in himself.
Likewise Tony Adams lionises fiszman but his estate made huge profits too.
and lady nina pissed off with well over 100 million so she can shut the fuckj off too instead of sniping on twitter. Cunt.
like him or not, PHW has been a steward of the club and not made a huge killing on any shares cos he really hasnt had many (dein took them off him in the 80s). He has been part of a profiteering baord but he has also beeen a steady hand on the tiller. People are wrong to blast him and misss that point
Alan B'stard
02-09-2011, 04:24 PM
Bankers have been a vile curse on humanity for centuries, they have destroyed everything - even hope. Football is just another casualty in a long line. I'm not saying they directly forced anyone to take their imaginary money, but what they have done is created an all encompassing financial environment that means nothing anywhere moves without paying them their cut.
Where does the principle income originate for any football club? Gate receipts and brand merchandising, plus exploitation of home grown talent or an efficient scouting network. We take the intervention of banks for granted, but what service do they actually perform that warrants their massive return on an imaginary risk? They do nothing, build nothing, enhance nothing. It's the customer funding the club in real terms, we generate the actual wealth. The bankers come along and offer to create money out of thin air at zero risk and hand it to the club in advance of customer receipts. But this comes at the cost of eroding the final revenue by whatever amount of insanely greedy interest the bankers want to leech. We don't need them, we've just allowed them to create the conditions in which they dictate their own indispensability. In that respect I agree, we're to fucking blame for allowing bankers to exist at all - my original point.
As for the cuntish board, by comparison they're just little fish snouting around for a free meal. Filthy pigs it's true, but just another product of the world the bankers have carefully crafted. The stunningly simple but perfectly effective solution is to insist clubs operate on receipts arising from football and only football. Shirt sales would be fine, selling flats? Fuck off, what does that have to do with a football club? Let clubs fail when they run out of money. Pay lower wages, have less fancy stadium, less TV, less of everything. That's football genuinely living within its means. Local lads growing up supporting a club and working through the ranks to score the winning goal at Wembley. That's football, a thing to stir the blood, not some crappy roulette wheel for fat corporate bastards and a blood bank for thieving scum bankers who, if they operated as they do in any other industry would be instantly jailed or hanged. Cunts. Burn them.
Yes, I'm mad. Just like anyone else who suggests the very cosy and convenient arrangements set up by banksters and their cronies is not inevitable, that there really is an alternative - indeed an alternative mankind has actually experienced in the past, not some fanciful leap into the unknown. Every cunt of influence tells us how it has to be, what's rational, immutable, inviolable. And it just so happens these rules and constants are maximised to line their fucking pockets at the expense of everyone else. How fucking convenient.
Yeah, it's the bankers. They are at the root of every fucking evil on this earth. Every last one. It's just not so easy to pick out the individual cases now we are deluged beneath their bullshit. Too big to fail they say. To fucking crooked to live is my motto. Kill the cunts if you want to save football and everything else.
just to play devils advocate - its not the banker's fault that people get get ripped off buying to lets in places they have never been. thats sarah, phil, kirtsy and every other T>V show cunt who convinces mongs that spluffng your savings on property is free money.
gunsofashburtongrove
01-10-2011, 06:57 AM
The debt (bonds) we have is £177million at 5.142% fixed until 2029,
plus £50 million at 3m libor+0.22 till 2013 and then rising to 3m libor+0.55.
This debt has a charge over our gate receipts. It is not low interest and it is impossible to pay it off early without incurring hefty early exit penalties. Best we can do is acccumulate cash in a deposit account, net these totals argue that our 'net debt' has been reduced. However if you think about it, that bank account isnt going to earn anything like the interest we are obliged to pay out above.
@AB The fin results for year ending may 2011 has just been published. The groups overall debt is mentioned as 97.8 mil down from 135.6 the previous year. Can you make sense of it
Globalgunner
01-10-2011, 06:18 PM
The ironic thing is that hardly anyone on the board owns any shares these days apart from Kroenke. Between him and Usmanov they control approximately 97% of the shares. This means that the current board are only in it for the fees they are paid as sitting directors. Usmanov coming on will probably mean them being voted off and a standoff between the two billionaires. Basically, the future SHOULD be rosy on the financial front as the debt is gradually paid off however I doubt that the finances are our problem. Wenger has almost deliberately wound down the quality of the squad while raising salaries overall. Wages have gone up 12% in the last year and you have to wonder to whom. I can only imagine that Wenger is doing his usual trick of keeping everybody happy by paying dross like Diaby, Bendtner, Djorou and Rosicky close to 70-90k per week. With Arteta reportedly taking a pay cut to join us who is earning the bazillion bucks that keeps our wage bill skyrocketing. Maybe the academy boys are on 40k each.
Dog Toffee
02-10-2011, 02:01 PM
There is no plan to deal with how Man City/Chelsea's zillions have fucked up the game.
And where was this 'plan' written out then? Can I have a copy of it?
More Wenger bashing just for having good morals.
Niall_Quinn
02-10-2011, 02:54 PM
There is no plan to deal with how Man City/Chelsea's zillions have fucked up the game.
And where was this 'plan' written out then? Can I have a copy of it?
More Wenger bashing just for having good morals.
We don't need a plan to deal with other teams, we need a plan to deal with our own team. Enough with the excuses. We all know we've been competitive in the past no matter who spent how much money. But we always came up short because we didn't spend that little bit more which was well within our means. The board and the manager have fucked this club. That's the real story here.
What's OUR ambition? To win.
What's THEIR ambition (the board and the manager)? To make money and prove some stupid fucking point that plainly it is not possible to prove.
Tipsychubbs
02-10-2011, 09:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll3uipTO-4A
Making it, as opposed to investing it into the team of course.
Olivier's xmas twist
06-10-2011, 03:50 PM
Ivan Gazidis has insisted Arsenal will not spend their way of trouble after claiming the club could cope next season without Champions League revenue.
Arsene Wenger's team sit in 15th place - two points above the drop zone - after their worst start for more than 50 years.
Last month the club announced a pre-tax of £14.8m without the summer transfer fees banked for Cesc Fabregas an Samir Nasri.
But the Gunners chief executive said he will not give in to the "dramatic pressure" surrounding the team and spend big in the January transfer window.
"We are always under pressure to spend and our recent results have not changed that," said the American.
"Every club has the temptation to think that the money is the answer to issues and if only we spent a little bit more it would push us over the top of a curve. And that is what drives the cycle of spending that you see in the game and that is by no means always successful. It is tempting to think it is. It relieves pressure for a while but it actually builds long-term pressure in other ways. We will continue to act with discipline to make sure we have a good short and long-term future.
"We think Arsenal can compete in any market, not withstanding our current position.
"We have a very sophisticated business model that looks at what we need to do to compete today, what we need to do to compete next year and five years from now."
Speaking at the Leaders in Football conference in London, Gazidis said new UEFA Financial Fair Play rules would create a "healthier environment" in the game.
"It would take a little of the pressure off - dramatic pressure, we are living it at the moment at Arsenal ob - to spend in order to compete. While it can be attractive in the short term, it can be incredibly damaging to the game over the longer term."
But Gazidis insisted Arsenal will not follow Leeds' implosion if they fail to finish in the top four for the 15th consecutive season.
"We would rather qualify for it (Champions League) but we have got a really stable model that can cope without that money," he said. "Not just cope but do well and compete.
"It would be very foolish to build a business model that relies on being in the Champions League in perpetuity. I don't think any clubs do that. If they do, they probably aren't being run as responsibly as they should do."
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Arsenal-can-cope-without-Champions-League-cash-and-will-not-buy-our-way-out-of-trouble-says-chief-executive-Ivan-Gazidis-article808668.html
The excuses are already started top come out, no CL football blah blah blah...sophisticated business model blah blah blah...money isn't the answer blah blah blah...
Why is this guy here other than to spin us some tripe?
Marc Overmars
06-10-2011, 05:17 PM
Gazidis has spoken a lot over the past couple of weeks and from what I gather the club is banking on financial fair play being implemented and most importantly, it being an effective tool to make clubs live within their means.
Xhaka Can’t
06-10-2011, 06:19 PM
A bit of financial fair play for the fans wouldn't go amiss.
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