Some brilliant articles on Wenger/money stuff

[Kaiser]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/42992d86-d48c-11e0-a42b-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss

Simon Kuper on AW in today's FT.

http://www.level3football.com/royhendo/article/arsene_who

An article detailing AW's tactical past at Monaco etc before he became such a purist in his footballing ideology.

http://transferpriceindex.com/2010/11/arsenal-1992-2010-extract-from-pay-as-you-play/

Stuff on Wenger's squads and how much they'd be worth today (taking inflation into account) by Paul Tomkins. The 98 and 02 squads were in the top 2 most expensive sides at the time. The Invincibles were relatively cheap (the 4th most expensive that season). In recent seasons our squad worth has been 7th and 9th.

http://transferpriceindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/signings.jpg
http://transferpriceindex.com/2011/08/the-transfer-price-index-201112-premier-league-predictions/

http://transferpriceindex.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/chart.jpg

[RomfordPele]

Interesting stuff. That last one particularly fascinating, if utterly depressing.

[AKBapologist]

Some will just read all of that and dismiss it out of hand. If only we had another manager they say.... As if any other manager is out performing AW given the cercumstances. They critise the youth policy without realising that it's a game of percentages, and that now, we stand little chance of hold on to the best players we produce when some clubs are content with just taking them at any price.

Too many fans dint understand the effect that city and Chelseas has had, directly and indirectly. For me it's proven that average managers can succeed over good ones when provided unlimited funds.

Read an interesting article explaining how liverpools and uniteds early transfer business was done in a bid to beat FFP. On wonders if the club still sees that as our salvation.

[Fats]

I still piss myself that Franny Jeffers played for us

One of Wengers top signings

[Özim]

Some will just read all of that and dismiss it out of hand. If only we had another manager they say.... As if any other manager is out performing AW given the cercumstances. They critise the youth policy without realising that it's a game of percentages, and that now, we stand little chance of hold on to the best players we produce when some clubs are content with just taking them at any price.
Another manager is unlikely to see his team lose 8-2, he's also unlikely to see his team giveaway a 4 goal lead or watch his team lead 2-0 and lose 3-2 to their arch rivals. I doubt you'd see his team collapse as Wenger teams have season on season in the last 5-6 years. I'd also question whether another manager would hold onto players who just aren't up to it as long as Wenger has.

Frankly the 8-2 was beyond humiliating and that result will forever haunt the Wenger reign now, I don't care about the circumstances because that's just pure and simple bad management, as is the inability to sort out the defensive side of the game and admitting that 90% of training is focussed on passing when the team has many other weaknesses of which passing isn't one of them.

Noone can defend Wenger at this stage, he's doing a bad job end of and it wouldn't be that hard for another manager to come in and do better, after the 8-2 he's set the bar very low.

I think we've witnessed in the last 5-6 years that Wenger isn't really as good as some thought, some will continue to support him blindly in much the same way he does with his players but most people will recognise he's not up to the task of making us genuine challengers again and that it's someone else's turn now.

[fakeyank]

Another manager is unlikely to see his team lose 8-2, he's also unlikely to see his team giveaway a 4 goal lead or watch his team lead 2-0 and lose 3-2 to their arch rivals. I doubt you'd see his team collapse as Wenger teams have season on season in the last 5-6 years. I'd also question whether another manager would hold onto players who just aren't up to it as long as Wenger has.

Frankly the 8-2 was beyond humiliating and that result will forever haunt the Wenger reign now, I don't care about the circumstances because that's just pure and simple bad management, as is the inability to sort out the defensive side of the game and admitting that 90% of training is focussed on passing when the team has many other weaknesses of which passing isn't one of them.

Noone can defend Wenger at this stage, he's doing a bad job end of and it wouldn't be that hard for another manager to come in and do better, after the 8-2 he's set the bar very low.

I think we've witnessed in the last 5-6 years that Wenger isn't really as good as some thought, some will continue to support him blindly in much the same way he does with his players but most people will recognise he's not up to the task of making us genuine challengers again and that it's someone else's turn now.

:gp:

I laugh and pity at those ppl still clutching onto 'AW is amazing' straw. He is past it and we have next to 0 chances of winning anything of note under him.

[Asthmatic Kitty]

could someone c+p the first article please? it wants me to register

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp:

I laugh and pity at those ppl still clutching onto 'AW is amazing' straw. He is past it and we have next to 0 chances of winning anything of note under him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eisa5AZ20W0

[AKBapologist]

I can't (and didn't) defend AW against the results, this summer or the failure to win something over the last 6 years. But there is this really repugnant idea that any donkey from any other team could do better. As if Arsenal has some god given natural advantage beyond the manager, over the other clubs that makes us perform higher than we should. If we never moved to highbury, we'd be closer to everton right now in terms of aspirations, with wages completely out stripping footballing revenue. Having to sell to pay debts and getting regularly thrashed on the opening days of the season... (oh).

For all of the Owen Coyles, David Moyes, Martin O'Neils and other average names touted to replace AW (because clearly, there records speak for themselves right?) I could just as easily cherry pick shocking performances from their sides, evidence of poor coaching or general miss-management. What really stinks is that the same people who tout these names are the same who accuse everyone else of having low aspirations - as if the only problem with Arsenal is the manager, and there aren't worse ways to completely ruin a club. Pathetic.

[Power n Glory]

I don't believe that Everton comparison for a second. Without the stadium we were a well run club without debt. We'd never allow that to happen and maybe without the stadium, we'd have shown more ambition in the transfer market. So far, we've been cautious and this is the only season where we've spent a lot of money. Unless we took out a loan to buy those players, I don't see how anyone can keep saying 'we're broke'.

[AKBapologist]

You don't even understand how or why Everton are were they are.

And I didn't say we we're broke. I'm saying we have no reason to be performing better than we are, and if Wenger was a complete donkey in every aspect, we'd be relegated.

[fakeyank]

I don't believe that Everton comparison for a second. Without the stadium we were a well run club without debt. We'd never allow that to happen and maybe without the stadium, we'd have shown more ambition in the transfer market. So far, we've been cautious and this is the only season where we've spent a lot of money. Unless we took out a loan to buy those players, I don't see how anyone can keep saying 'we're broke'.

Partially true.. we spent ~45 mill quid this summer while we got ~70 mill in. We reduced our wage bill by offloading high earners like Cesc, Nasri and Clichy. We also offloaded Bendy and Eboue. In general, we made a net positive in transfers and also wages.. same as the last 6 seasons!

[fakeyank]

You don't even understand how or why Everton are were they are.

And I didn't say we we're broke. I'm saying we have no reason to be performing better than we are, and if Wenger was a complete donkey in every aspect, we'd be relegated.

Why is there no reason to be performing better than how we are? Just a couple of experienced players at the business end of last season or the season before or in 07/08 season would have seen us win something. No GK signed when there was a clear need of one, no defenders signed when we needed one, no experienced players signed when it was clear as daylight we needed experienced heads in the dressing room, no defensive coaching etc etc... and you say we have no reason to be performing better?!?! All these things dont need a man city or chelsea type of signing i.e. >25 million..

Sometimes I think you dont know what you are talking about? Is the need to be different than most more important than being rationale?

[Power n Glory]

Care to explain why they're in that position? And why Arsenal could have ended up like them?

And nobody has suggested anyone can come in to do Wenger's job and yes, we should be performing better than what we are because our team wasn't that bad. You don't play Man U and Chelsea every game of the season and we should have at least won a domestic cup by now.

If we'd have stayed at Highbury, I can't imagine things being much different. We'd have probably slowly dropped down the table while Chelsea and Man U duke it out, but there has never been a team below us that has been hot on our heels each season threatening to knock us out of 4th spot. None of them can sustain the challenge. Until there glare 5 genuine title contenders, then 4th spot is a real battle. Competition is hot for is now because City and Liverpool have stepped up.

[Grebbo]

I couldn't read, or couldn't be arsed to read any of the articles.

Do they take into account wages when looking at our spend?

If not then it's pointless.

Finding 'gems' such as Bendtner for tuppence is countered by paying him £55,000 per week on long term contract - especially when no-one else would be paying him half that, even Manure.

[AKBapologist]

Wage inflation and failure to win anything or get into the champions league has meant that Everton spend more just to stand still every season, they take loans to finance player purchases so unless they win stuff, they regularly have to sell. There a well run club and compared to Liverpool who would have gone into administration last season spending shit loads to no effect (before king kenny) - if things had stayed the same (IE, united were the top dog and no billionare owners existed) they would have been very competitive.

The fundamental difference is that we won stuff, trebled our fan base, and moved to a bigger stadium. Right now, debts included, assuming we fill the stadium every match we're way better off than we would have been under GG. Instead of it being a two horse race, 4-5 teams are spending loads of money to achieve what we do. You think it's bad with AW? Imagine if Harry Redknapp was our manager...

So which is it... IS AW only 2% away from being the best manager in the league (reality) or is he a bumbling fool no longer capable of tying his own shoe laces? (Zimmlogic) because at least if you call for AW's head, qualify that by saying "and to be replaced by world Class management." Anything less would just be transparent petulant delusion.

[Power n Glory]

He's far from being the best manager in the league because managers with less money at their disposal and less talented players in their roster are able to out think him tactically and stop our players from performing. That is why people don't rate him that much. Managing finaces is one thing but when we're talking tactics, organising a team and making key decisions that can change a game, he's lacking.

Everyone calling for Wenger to go wants a world class manager to come in. We all want better the club. But when discussing Wenger's tactics, you see odd decisions that most average managers wouldn't make but nobody believes an average manager can come in and sort out this team.

Also, how much has wage inflation effected Arsenal? We have this wage structure right? Doesn't that stop things from getting out of hand and aren't we paying around the same amount we paid during the Invincible years?

[Cripps_orig]

Best manager in the league after 2 wins in 14 games? :lol:

[BOBN]

I can't (and didn't) defend AW against the results, this summer or the failure to win something over the last 6 years. But there is this really repugnant idea that any donkey from any other team could do better. As if Arsenal has some god given natural advantage beyond the manager, over the other clubs that makes us perform higher than we should. If we never moved to highbury, we'd be closer to everton right now in terms of aspirations, with wages completely out stripping footballing revenue. Having to sell to pay debts and getting regularly thrashed on the opening days of the season... (oh).

For all of the Owen Coyles, David Moyes, Martin O'Neils and other average names touted to replace AW (because clearly, there records speak for themselves right?) I could just as easily cherry pick shocking performances from their sides, evidence of poor coaching or general miss-management. What really stinks is that the same people who tout these names are the same who accuse everyone else of having low aspirations - as if the only problem with Arsenal is the manager, and there aren't worse ways to completely ruin a club. Pathetic.
spot on.

even if hes run his race they better think long and hard before appointing a replacement, or else we are fooked. that means no plums like o'neill.

[BOBN]

Why is there no reason to be performing better than how we are? Just a couple of experienced players at the business end of last season or the season before or in 07/08 season would have seen us win something. No GK signed when there was a clear need of one, no defenders signed when we needed one, no experienced players signed when it was clear as daylight we needed experienced heads in the dressing room, no defensive coaching etc etc... and you say we have no reason to be performing better?!?! All these things dont need a man city or chelsea type of signing i.e. >25 million..

Sometimes I think you dont know what you are talking about? Is the need to be different than most more important than being rationale?
yes and wenger built that 07/08 squad that was 2 players short. you think fookin bruce arena could build a squad like that?

[GP]

yes and wenger built that 07/08 squad that was 2 players short. you think fookin bruce arena could build a squad like that?

It's funny cos he's American :lol:



Arena, I mean, not Fakeyank. He's a dirty Sri Lankan.

[Niall_Quinn]

Could somebody, Wenger, Rice, PHW, Stan, the other fat Russian, anybody please make sure: we mount a serious title challenge, take all the cups seriously and compete all out to win, don't field weakened sides and then fuck up, don't throw away leads, devise some fresh tactics to supplement our one dimensional game plan in the even the latter isn't working, defend set pieces properly, take set piece properly, insist the players cross the ball properly, order the strikers to get in the box when we are attacking, insist the players show pride in the shirt and don't collapse when under pressure and respect the fans in general and at all times because it's the fans that make this all possible in the first place?

Thanks.

[IBK]

There's no doubt that Wenger is an unbelievable manager in some was. Most geniuses are flawed however, and AW's downfall is having given his flaws full reign. I am coming round to thinking that this would not have occured had DD not left the club.

[fakeyank]

yes and wenger built that 07/08 squad that was 2 players short. you think fookin bruce arena could build a squad like that?

:doh:

No, but I think Moyes or O'Neill couldve built that and lasted the distance! Moyes and O'Neill are just two names... I am sure you werent creaming ur pants when AW was first appointed. If an unknown like him can take the club to such heights in 04, why not someone else? How do you know Riijkard, O'Neill, Billic, Van Gaal cant do the same job? These are established names.. may be there are a couple of unknowns who can do it too.

The way AW is now, I can confidently say that any dumbass on the street can do better than him including you and Bruce Arena.

[Özim]

yes and wenger built that 07/08 squad that was 2 players short. you think fookin bruce arena could build a squad like that?
He also built a team that gave away a 4 goal lead and lost 8-2.

Don't know too many managers who have managed top clubs who have managed results quite like this, nor can I remember a manager whose team bottles it every season and remains in charge regardless.

[fakeyank]

It's funny cos he's American :lol:



Arena, I mean, not Fakeyank. He's a dirty Sri Lankan.

:sick:

I aint Srilankan m'fucka.. I am a Bangladeshi that was born and bred in the real Emirates- The one where Brits like you migrate to in search of riches and then go to jail for being drunk idiots! :good:

[fakeyank]

He also built a team that gave away a 4 goal lead and lost 8-2.

Don't know too many managers who have managed top clubs who have managed results quite like this, nor can I remember a manager whose team bottles it every season and remains in charge regardless.

:gp:

[AKBapologist]

He's far from being the best manager in the league because managers with less money at their disposal and less talented players in their roster are able to out think him tactically and stop our players from performing. That is why people don't rate him that much. Managing finaces is one thing but when we're talking tactics, organising a team and making key decisions that can change a game, he's lacking.

Everyone calling for Wenger to go wants a world class manager to come in. We all want better the club. But when discussing Wenger's tactics, you see odd decisions that most average managers wouldn't make but nobody believes an average manager can come in and sort out this team.

Also, how much has wage inflation effected Arsenal? We have this wage structure right? Doesn't that stop things from getting out of hand and aren't we paying around the same amount we paid during the Invincible years?
Yes, those same managers who out think him in the odd game also happen to, season after season for the most part, finish lower in the league.

And we've lost 2 players to man city this Summer due to wages (and whatever else you choose to believe) for wages we just werent prepared to match. It also makes it difficult to attract players of the quality we used to.

[fakeyank]

Yes, those same managers who out think him in the odd game also happen to, season after season for the most part, finish lower in the league.

And we've lost 2 players to man city this Summer due to wages (and whatever else you choose to believe) for wages we just werent prepared to match. It also makes it difficult to attract players of the quality we used to.

Nobody is calling for an Aguero or Torres or Ronaldo at Arsenal.

Why couldnt we have wrapped up Mertesacker, Arteta earlier?

What was the whole waiting period about?

Why did he stick players like Bendy, Eduardo, Vela on the wings?

Why hasnt set piece defending been a priority even though we have been leaking goals from that particular area for the last 5 seasons!?

Which manager in their right mind would play four CM's (against Stoke) in a game?

Why wasnt Almunia replaced when he clearly was costing us points every game? From very solid rumors, it was because fulham wanted 1 million more.. 1 fuckin million!!

What happened to our quick counter attacking football? Whats up with the tippy tappy Barca clone football?

There are plenty of other points and none of them were in anyway affected because 'Man City and Chelsea' are blowing everyone off the water. Thats just typical BS. If Arsene had got a couple of very basic things right, we'd have won the PL or some other trophy.. He is way past it and he is super adamant about making his shit policy of youngsters work.. thank Allah for that 8-2 defeat otherwise he'd have stuck to his same old policy.

I find it baffling the reasons people still come up with to defend AW.. He was good.. he is a gob of shit now!

[fakeyank]

Could somebody, Wenger, Rice, PHW, Stan, the other fat Russian, anybody please make sure: we mount a serious title challenge, take all the cups seriously and compete all out to win, don't field weakened sides and then fuck up, don't throw away leads, devise some fresh tactics to supplement our one dimensional game plan in the even the latter isn't working, defend set pieces properly, take set piece properly, insist the players cross the ball properly, order the strikers to get in the box when we are attacking, insist the players show pride in the shirt and don't collapse when under pressure and respect the fans in general and at all times because it's the fans that make this all possible in the first place?

Thanks.

:gp:

Everything you mentioned has to do with AW or :patrice:

The rest dont control the footballing side of things

[BOBN]

:doh:

No, but I think Moyes or O'Neill couldve built that and lasted the distance! Moyes and O'Neill are just two names... I am sure you werent creaming ur pants when AW was first appointed. If an unknown like him can take the club to such heights in 04, why not someone else? How do you know Riijkard, O'Neill, Billic, Van Gaal cant do the same job? These are established names.. may be there are a couple of unknowns who can do it too.

The way AW is now, I can confidently say that any dumbass on the street can do better than him including you and Bruce Arena.
built what? have you seen o'neill in the transfer market? the chairman simply stopped giving him money he was so wretched at it. im confident if he came in in 2009 arsenals team would look something like this today:

--------given
sagna-dunne-toure-bridge
walcott-barry-wilshere-downing
------bent-adebayor

and thats doing him a service suggesting he could have hung onto ade and toure.

and you watch how getting 4th gets spun from "X years without a trophy" into "miracle achievement!!1!!!1!" under a british manager.

[Cripps_orig]

I'd love Bent here tbh

[BOBN]

bar bridge and maybe dunne all those players would add to our squad. im not trying to shyt on o'neill by saying the team would look like that, hes notorious for his obvious signing and long ball tactics.

but I do know that teams ceiling would be a top 4 challenge, equal to what wenger is achieving now. you cant just get rid of wenger and expect any old cunt to do better. this clubs fans are notorious for this idiotic thinking, we had it when adebayor left and people thought bendtner would stroll in and replace the 'donkey', gallas to squillaci, cole to clichy, eboue to jenkinson and so on. it doesnt work like that chaps.

personally if wenger were to leave tommorrow we'd have to look at someone like ancelotti.

[fakeyank]

built what? have you seen o'neill in the transfer market? the chairman simply stopped giving him money he was so wretched at it. im confident if he came in in 2009 arsenals team would look something like this today:

--------given
sagna-dunne-toure-bridge
walcott-barry-wilshere-downing
------bent-adebayor

and thats doing him a service suggesting he could have hung onto ade and toure.

and you watch how getting 4th gets spun from "X years without a trophy" into "miracle achievement!!1!!!1!" under a british manager.

That team wouldnt lose 8-2

[cricketsi]

built what? have you seen o'neill in the transfer market? the chairman simply stopped giving him money he was so wretched at it. im confident if he came in in 2009 arsenals team would look something like this today:

--------given
sagna-dunne-toure-bridge
walcott-barry-wilshere-downing
------bent-adebayor

and thats doing him a service suggesting he could have hung onto ade and toure.

and you watch how getting 4th gets spun from "X years without a trophy" into "miracle achievement!!1!!!1!" under a british manager.

He'd probably have bought Heskey again instead of Bent, tbf.

[Özim]

and you watch how getting 4th gets spun from "X years without a trophy" into "miracle achievement!!1!!!1!" under a british manager.
Ferguson is British

[Joker]

I think tactically, Wenger is a mediocre manager. In the past, he was very good at picking "rough diamonds" and developing them into top quality players (like Vieira, Henry, Ljungberg, etc) He was able to pick up these players for relatively modest fees, and put them into a cohesive team that worked very well as a unit. However, he was also lucky that the back 5 was settled, because we've seen that he has a severe blind spot when it comes to defensive signings. If Wenger also had to bring in a new defence when he took over, I don't think we'd have achieved anywhere near the amount of success we did in the early part of Wenger's tenure. He'd have looked to get in cheap, French defenders from Ligue 1 (like he has since 2006) and that would have proven to be our Achilles heel.

However, in recent years, even his ability to find quality players who are unfinished products has diminished. Combine that with his average tactical mind, you end up with a manager who cannot be called one of the top managers in the world. He's a bog standard manager at the moment.

[Power n Glory]

Not bog standard, just not one of the elite coaches. Not many managers get an opportunity to coach a top flight team for over 10 years and I feel Wenger should have won more. Years and years of Champions League qualifications and he hasn't won it yet. Before he retires, I want him to win that. I'm critical of Wenger but I want him to win that and I wish he was a master tactician but he's not. I was hoping hoping he'd finally see the light and just go for it this season.

[AKBapologist]

Nobody is calling for an Aguero or Torres or Ronaldo at Arsenal.

Why couldnt we have wrapped up Mertesacker, Arteta earlier?

What was the whole waiting period about?

Why did he stick players like Bendy, Eduardo, Vela on the wings?

Why hasnt set piece defending been a priority even though we have been leaking goals from that particular area for the last 5 seasons!?

Which manager in their right mind would play four CM's (against Stoke) in a game?

Why wasnt Almunia replaced when he clearly was costing us points every game? From very solid rumors, it was because fulham wanted 1 million more.. 1 fuckin million!!

What happened to our quick counter attacking football? Whats up with the tippy tappy Barca clone football?

There are plenty of other points and none of them were in anyway affected because 'Man City and Chelsea' are blowing everyone off the water. Thats just typical BS. If Arsene had got a couple of very basic things right, we'd have won the PL or some other trophy.. He is way past it and he is super adamant about making his shit policy of youngsters work.. thank Allah for that 8-2 defeat otherwise he'd have stuck to his same old policy.

I find it baffling the reasons people still come up with to defend AW.. He was good.. he is a gob of shit now!
And yet, according to you we where only a couple of signings away from winning the league/CC. :doh:

You really have to talk to some other fans to get perspective sometimes.

[Darth Vela]

Some interesting points scattered across this thread.

Fwiw, Wenger is changing things after the failure of last season, anyone how says otherwise hasn't really sat down and looked at the outs and ins, I think this could well be a season of transition (the last two weren't supposed to be, they were just failure) and that's bloody annoying. We now have older, experienced players to help the youngsters along, something which was a significant part of the stagnation of players like Bentnder and Denilson but once they're out injured we still have young, unproven backup; get lucky with injuries (fat chance) and we could pull something off but otherwise, I wouldn't bet on anything more than a CC.

I think the general approach, nurturing younger talent and combining with experience is the best, and possibly only way we can compete with the big 3 as they'll no doubt be called. I'm a lot less certain though that Wenger is the man to do it, the greater part of his legacy at AFC is behind him so it wouldn't hurt to look at his replacement sooner rather than later.

[goonerholler]

That team wouldnt lose 8-2

That team also wouldn't start with 8 players missing.

[fakeyank]

That team also wouldn't start with 8 players missing.

Dont remember which team it was exactly.. may be blackpool or wigan where they fielded a weakened team against Utd coz they were sure they are going to lose. Guess what happened? They actually gave the other team a game! Even with 11 players out, we shouldnt be conceding 8 goals.. the fact that you are justifying that shows the low level of expectation that AW has brought some to be happy with!

[fakeyank]

And yet, according to you we where only a couple of signings away from winning the league/CC. :doh:

You really have to talk to some other fans to get perspective sometimes.

Not even a single answer to any of the questions. Didnt expect much tbh.. coz frankly speaking you are just trying to be different from the crowd to get some attention. You can have your day under the sun :good:

[IBK]

Not even a single answer to any of the questions. Didnt expect much tbh.. coz frankly speaking you are just trying to be different from the crowd to get some attention. You can have your day under the sun :good:

Just like Wenger?

[fakeyank]

Just like Wenger?

Yes sir! Negative attention!

[IBK]

Yes sir! Negative attention!

Don't think he sees it that way. More of a God complex born out of having noone to question his methods - which is why only circumstances do. IMHO there are 2 things that force AW to change tack. First when he has 'no choice' (Fabregas; Sczezny; Wishere; Flamini; Clichy fall more or less into this category). Second when we risk losing CL football (Arshavin; Mertesacker; Santos fit in here). I'm not saying that any of these players were totally unplanned, but IMO they are the result of circumstance as much as strategy. IMO.

[AKBapologist]

Not even a single answer to any of the questions. Didnt expect much tbh.. coz frankly speaking you are just trying to be different from the crowd to get some attention. You can have your day under the sun :good:
Huh? What questions? That AW is tactically inept? Because of 5-6 results out of 700 games during his Arsenal career or 60 games last season?

All i'm seeing is a few individuals cherry picking, or letting a single trend that fits perfectly with your bias dominate an argument. Even I wouldn't be sad to see the back of wenger, but I always qualify that by saying "if one of the top managers in the world came in" because the reality is that AW on the pitch and off it, is much better than people give him credit for. Yes, lets sack wenger and get a steve kean and a rafa benitez because they never lost 8-2. :doh:

[GP]

Huh? What questions? That AW is tactically inept? Because of 5-6 results out of 700 games during his Arsenal career or 60 games last season?

All i'm seeing is a few individuals cherry picking, or letting a single trend that fits perfectly with your bias dominate an argument. Even I wouldn't be sad to see the back of wenger, but I always qualify that by saying "if one of the top managers in the world came in" because the reality is that AW on the pitch and off it, is much better than people give him credit for. Yes, lets sack wenger and get a steve kean and a rafa benitez because they never lost 8-2. :doh:

Awesome post.



Wenger OUT!

[Cripps_orig]

Huh? What questions? That AW is tactically inept? Because of 5-6 results out of 700 games during his Arsenal career or 60 games last season?

All i'm seeing is a few individuals cherry picking, or letting a single trend that fits perfectly with your bias dominate an argument. Even I wouldn't be sad to see the back of wenger, but I always qualify that by saying "if one of the top managers in the world came in" because the reality is that AW on the pitch and off it, is much better than people give him credit for. Yes, lets sack wenger and get a steve kean and a rafa benitez because they never lost 8-2. :doh:

5-6 results? Are you serious? Im sure thats a typo and you meant to type years then its more accurate. Making the same mistake over and over again, not strengthening when we need it, buying shite ass players from the same country over and over again, defensively inept, boring football, lack of killer instinct, overplaying, bending over for Barca all the time and a lot more.

[AKBapologist]

5-6 results? Are you serious? Im sure thats a typo and you meant to type years then its more accurate. Making the same mistake over and over again, not strengthening when we need it, buying shite ass players from the same country over and over again, defensively inept, boring football, lack of killer instinct, overplaying, bending over for Barca all the time and a lot more.
Yes, because thats much worse than getting the Harry Redknapp treatment. :doh:

[Cripps_orig]

Whats he got to do with it?

He manages a lower club. The expectations are different there.

I dont want Redknapp here anyway

[AKBapologist]

Whats he got to do with it?

He manages a lower club. The expectations are different there.

I dont want Redknapp here anyway
Why not? He's clearly better than Wenger because he's never lost 8-2 or gone 6 years without a trophy, he also knows how to spend shead loads of money.

[fakeyank]

Huh? What questions? That AW is tactically inept? Because of 5-6 results out of 700 games during his Arsenal career or 60 games last season?

All i'm seeing is a few individuals cherry picking, or letting a single trend that fits perfectly with your bias dominate an argument. Even I wouldn't be sad to see the back of wenger, but I always qualify that by saying "if one of the top managers in the world came in" because the reality is that AW on the pitch and off it, is much better than people give him credit for. Yes, lets sack wenger and get a steve kean and a rafa benitez because they never lost 8-2. :doh:

You've got to be shitting me mate! 5-6 games?! How about 5-6 seasons? All those questions I posted were not a one off.. the rot set in since 2007 and I lost patience in him after the 09 season where A.Villas collapse led us to getting 4th.

And why do you keep harping about shit managers like Benitez, Redknapp, steve kean? Who on here said that we need them? You are just bringing their names in to make it seem like there are no good managers out there! Really?! What about Ancelotti, Van Gaal, Riijkaard, Billic for starters? I am open to a complete unknown as well..

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger sitting there doing nothing as the squad he assembled got taken apart in the biggest humiliation ever inflicted on a EPL team pretty much ended all pretence regarding his tactical capabilities, or at least his willingness to admit his ideas are not always valid in every circumstance. If we were eight players light (which is an exaggeration given the quality of some of the "stars" we have missing, e.g. Diaby) he should have at least put what we had behind the ball and tried to keep the scoreline semi-respectable. Instead he played the mad general sending his kids over the top and into a hail of bullets. We wait to see if the consequences of such stubbornness or naivety will have a longer term effect on players like Coquelin and Jenkinson who he threw to the wolves in order to preserve his inappropriate demand for how football should be played regardless of the opposition.

I don't think many defend his tactical record over the last few seasons. We can argue about who is most responsible for leaving the squad short of quality but it's not the board's fault Wenger doesn't pay due respect to the opposition by incorporating them into his game plan accordingly. I believe most managers would handle on pitch matters more effectively than Wenger, and that includes your Redknapps, Keans and O'Neils - average managers but far more realistic than Wenger it seems. Whether they could manage the other aspects that Wenger is responsible for is another matter and highly doubtful.

That's our problem. Wenger is so interwoven into the fabric of the club it's hard to imagine anyone standing in his place. But it's really not too difficult to imagine another manager handling things better on the pitch and the training ground.

[BOBN]

You've got to be shitting me mate! 5-6 games?! How about 5-6 seasons? All those questions I posted were not a one off.. the rot set in since 2007 and I lost patience in him after the 09 season where A.Villas collapse led us to getting 4th.

And why do you keep harping about shit managers like Benitez, Redknapp, steve kean? Who on here said that we need them? You are just bringing their names in to make it seem like there are no good managers out there! Really?! What about Ancelotti, Van Gaal, Riijkaard, Billic for starters? I am open to a complete unknown as well..
bilic is shyt and van gaal is washed up

[selassie]

Wenger sitting there doing nothing as the squad he assembled got taken apart in the biggest humiliation ever inflicted on a EPL team pretty much ended all pretence regarding his tactical capabilities, or at least his willingness to admit his ideas are not always valid in every circumstance. If we were eight players light (which is an exaggeration given the quality of some of the "stars" we have missing, e.g. Diaby) he should have at least put what we had behind the ball and tried to keep the scoreline semi-respectable. Instead he played the mad general sending his kids over the top and into a hail of bullets. We wait to see if the consequences of such stubbornness or naivety will have a longer term effect on players like Coquelin and Jenkinson who he threw to the wolves in order to preserve his inappropriate demand for how football should be played regardless of the opposition.

I don't think many defend his tactical record over the last few seasons. We can argue about who is most responsible for leaving the squad short of quality but it's not the board's fault Wenger doesn't pay due respect to the opposition by incorporating them into his game plan accordingly. I believe most managers would handle on pitch matters more effectively than Wenger, and that includes your Redknapps, Keans and O'Neils - average managers but far more realistic than Wenger it seems. Whether they could manage the other aspects that Wenger is responsible for is another matter and highly doubtful.

That's our problem. Wenger is so interwoven into the fabric of the club it's hard to imagine anyone standing in his place. But it's really not too difficult to imagine another manager handling things better on the pitch and the training ground.

:gp:

[Darth Vela]

Wenger sitting there doing nothing as the squad he assembled got taken apart in the biggest humiliation ever inflicted on a EPL team pretty much ended all pretence regarding his tactical capabilities, or at least his willingness to admit his ideas are not always valid in every circumstance. If we were eight players light (which is an exaggeration given the quality of some of the "stars" we have missing, e.g. Diaby) he should have at least put what we had behind the ball and tried to keep the scoreline semi-respectable. Instead he played the mad general sending his kids over the top and into a hail of bullets. We wait to see if the consequences of such stubbornness or naivety will have a longer term effect on players like Coquelin and Jenkinson who he threw to the wolves in order to preserve his inappropriate demand for how football should be played regardless of the opposition.

I don't think many defend his tactical record over the last few seasons. We can argue about who is most responsible for leaving the squad short of quality but it's not the board's fault Wenger doesn't pay due respect to the opposition by incorporating them into his game plan accordingly. I believe most managers would handle on pitch matters more effectively than Wenger, and that includes your Redknapps, Keans and O'Neils - average managers but far more realistic than Wenger it seems. Whether they could manage the other aspects that Wenger is responsible for is another matter and highly doubtful.

That's our problem. Wenger is so interwoven into the fabric of the club it's hard to imagine anyone standing in his place. But it's really not too difficult to imagine another manager handling things better on the pitch and the training ground.

He doesn't adapt his tactics often enough, I agree. He relies on having intelligent players who know how to adapt things to any situation on the pitch, which is fine when they're experienced and talented, in fact as we saw it leads to a team being practically unbeatable but this is one the reasons why the youth project didn't work out as well as hoped, we lost too many experienced players too quickly and without the tactical nous of Mourinho, Wenger is exposed.

[Niall_Quinn]

He doesn't adapt his tactics often enough, I agree. He relies on having intelligent players who know how to adapt things to any situation on the pitch, which is fine when they're experienced and talented, in fact as we saw it leads to a team being practically unbeatable but this is one the reasons why the youth project didn't work out as well as hoped, we lost too many experienced players too quickly and without the tactical nous of Mourinho, Wenger is exposed.

Haven't we lamented the apparent lack of intelligence in our squad over the last few seasons? Diaby, Song, Walcott, Denilson, Rosicky, our God awful defenders (TV excluded), our terrible goalkeepers until Chesney came along. Na$ri failing to step up, Chamakh going into hiding. Clueless Nick and our Russian who even though they were played out of position couldn't adapt and turn a bad situation into something useful. This is why Fabregas always made the difference, suddenly there was a brain in the team. This is why TV makes the difference for players like Jenkinson today, there's a brain at work. This is why I feel sorry for Chesney who also seems to have a brain but can't deploy it given the shit in front of him. And this is why Mertesacker is a big hope, surely he went to football school if he's managed so many caps for the Germans?

If this is what Wenger has been relying on as a stand-in for his own managerial responsibilities then no wonder.