Time to ditch 4-3-3?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Or should we call it 4-6-0 ? Yeah that's probably another argument......

ANyway IIRC, 4-3-3 started when AW decided to experiment with 4-5-1 to see if it could be the panacea to our underwhelming results in Europe. It worked like a charm (we reached our first and only CL final largely because of that formation) and AW went further to see if 4-5-1 would work in the EPL. Anyway post-Henry it morphed to its final form of 4-3-3 and that brings us to today.

Now it’s been utterly woeful (both result wise and visually) Post-Fab with this formation. I mean some will say the rot in this formation started even while Fab was here, but again that's not the crux of this post- the question is what do we do now?
Do we persist with this formation, wait till January, buy some new players :chuckle: more suited to this formation; or do we ditch it and go to the trusted but less Euro friendly 4-4-2 ?

Now if we do go back to 4-4-2, is it another sign of retrogression on our part seeing as almost all the big boys in Europe play some form of 4-3-3/4-5-1 (especially as we pioneered it among the big boys in the EPL)?

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

BTW nice to be back

...um does this pubic poll thingy mean everyone can see exactly whom voted for what? cause if it does could the mods please change it to just a regular poll.

[Syn]

We are only making up the numbers in Europe and we are not very competitive in England either. So any feelings that there's a trade-off between doing well in England and doing well in Europe should go out the window.

I think most teams are not playing 4-4-2 in England now. What is noticeable is that top teams (Man Utd, Chelsea and, now, Man City) seem very comfortable in switching between systems to counter opponents. I don't think we have ever set out to do that.

So I think the issue is - should we have a set system at all or should we be looking to switch between 4-4-1-1/4-3-3/4-5-1 etc. depending on the opponent and the players we have available.

I suspect most on here will be fully in favour of 'ditching' the 4-3-3 but what they actually want is a change of playing style. By the simple action of switching to 4-4-1-1, we are not necessarily going to change the painfully indirect approach. But I am still of the opinion that forcing every little change possible is likely to eventually have an impact on the pitch.

I can forgive trying something different and failing, but I can't forgive keeping a failed approach.

[Marc Overmars]

I think most teams are not playing 4-4-2 in England now. What is noticeable is that top teams (Man Utd, Chelsea and, now, Man City) seem very comfortable in switching between systems to counter opponents. I don't think we have ever set out to do that.



Agreed. It's well documented that we will set out our stall exactly the same whether we're facing Wigan or Barcelona.

No plan B etc.

Been a talking point for years but nothing will change under Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

The problem isn't the formation. Wenger is the problem. Even if we played 4-4-2, he'd still do something stupid like play Arteta on the flanks, Benayoun on the flanks, or still persist with Arshavin and Walcott on the flanks which takes them further away from the edge of the box where they're both most deadly.

We have the players to play a 4-5-1 or a 4-3-3. He just doesn't know how to get the best out of the players he has. I say we should switch to a 4-4-2 sometimes, but if we do that, where will Arteta and Wilshere fit into that? I don't want to see them wasted on the wings or playing behind the striker just so he can fit them into the squad. He should be able to adjust this formation to make it work. If Mancini can fit Aguero into his team along with Tevez without playing him on the flanks, then Wenger should be able to tweak things in our squad. If Wenger was coaching this Man City team, Aguero would probably be playing on the flanks.

[gunnerrrrr]

Agreed. It's well documented that we will set out our stall exactly the same whether we're facing Wigan or Barcelona.

No plan B etc.

Been a talking point for years but nothing will change under Wenger.
Right on the money.

This lack of tactics from Wenger is ridiculous and the reason why alot of players end up leaving us, or not playing to their full ability.

Why would we EVER play 4141 (our 433 wanabee) at home to Swansea

[Xhaka Can’t]

Welcome back - for a fee, no-one can see how you've voted

[Joker]

If we are to play 4-4-2, it would help to have two "all round" central midfielders in there, capable of providing enough defensive cover when we lose the ball and when we are in possession, to have the technical ability to link up with the attackers and offer creativity going forward. Perhaps Song and Wilshere could do a decent job in there, with Song the defensive player and Wilshere the offensive player but even then, I'd worry about us being a bit light in there. Moreover, you know that Wenger would probably end up playing players like Arteta out wide just to accommodate them, which will simply make it a disjointed system. In that system you want either pace or real goalscoring threat down the wings, and although Arteta's a good player he's not suited to playing wide IMO.

I think when Wilshere comes back, a central 3 of Wilshere, Arteta and Song is the best we can do. Out wide, Gervinho looks comfortable. The main problem seems to be the centre forward role, and the other wide position. If I was the manager, I'd say if RVP and Walcott are unable to perform in that system, they have to be dropped IMO. We can't adapt our play just to suit two players, because if we go to a 4-4-2 other problems start appearing (we become defensively more unstable IMO, and may have to fit square pegs in round holes again)

So, I'd retain the 4-3-3 system, and if RVP and Walcott can't hack it in this system, I'd remove them from the team and give Young and Oxlade a chance.

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsh or Theo in the middle behind RvP and just boot the fucker right over the top and into space from time to time. Just for a bit of variation and something to watch.

Please.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The problem isn't the formation. Wenger is the problem. Even if we played 4-4-2, he'd still do something stupid like play Arteta on the flanks, Benayoun on the flanks, or still persist with Arshavin and Walcott on the flanks which takes them further away from the edge of the box where they're both most deadly.

We have the players to play a 4-5-1 or a 4-3-3. He just doesn't know how to get the best out of the players he has. I say we should switch to a 4-4-2 sometimes, but if we do that, where will Arteta and Wilshere fit into that? I don't want to see them wasted on the wings or playing behind the striker just so he can fit them into the squad. He should be able to adjust this formation to make it work. If Mancini can fit Aguero into his team along with Tevez without playing him on the flanks, then Wenger should be able to tweak things in our squad. If Wenger was coaching this Man City team, Aguero would probably be playing on the flanks.

This. Wenger needs to learn how to swtich between the too when needed. We look like we don't even have a plan A neve mind a plan b

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I can forgive trying something different and failing, but I can't forgive keeping a failed approach.

This particular line sums up everything wrong with this club- people not giving a f**k and doing the same thing over and over again while the whole world is changing around them.

I mean, I don't know if it was our last game where the commentator mentioned that Theo has been in our club since jan 06- 5 bleeping years and he's still as clueless on the wing as he ever was!!!

ATM the only true winger type player I see in our club is Gervinho, everyone else seems to be doing silly secondments that are just not working. We still have no real no 9s, but a bunch of false no 9s, no 8s and no 10s.

In fact the only thing that feels real about our 4-3-3 is our back 4; and that says it all really.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Welcome back - for a fee, no-one can see how you've voted
Just post you account details and my Nigerian accountant will get back to you ;)

[Power n Glory]

If we are to play 4-4-2, it would help to have two "all round" central midfielders in there, capable of providing enough defensive cover when we lose the ball and when we are in possession, to have the technical ability to link up with the attackers and offer creativity going forward. Perhaps Song and Wilshere could do a decent job in there, with Song the defensive player and Wilshere the offensive player but even then, I'd worry about us being a bit light in there. Moreover, you know that Wenger would probably end up playing players like Arteta out wide just to accommodate them, which will simply make it a disjointed system. In that system you want either pace or real goalscoring threat down the wings, and although Arteta's a good player he's not suited to playing wide IMO.

I think when Wilshere comes back, a central 3 of Wilshere, Arteta and Song is the best we can do. Out wide, Gervinho looks comfortable. The main problem seems to be the centre forward role, and the other wide position. If I was the manager, I'd say if RVP and Walcott are unable to perform in that system, they have to be dropped IMO. We can't adapt our play just to suit two players, because if we go to a 4-4-2 other problems start appearing (we become defensively more unstable IMO, and may have to fit square pegs in round holes again)

So, I'd retain the 4-3-3 system, and if RVP and Walcott can't hack it in this system, I'd remove them from the team and give Young and Oxlade a chance.

I agree he will play more square pegs in round holes. RVP has shown he can play in the centre if he has support, but at the moment he's not getting anything from Ramsey. The middle is too weak to support the wingers or front man. Barca's system is so effective because the middle is the launch pad for attacks and the ball is bounced front to back and side to side because the middle is always moving, taking the ball and giving the players around it time to run or support to play the one two. We don't have that at the moment and when we had Cesc, for a while, he was the only player moving around to support the front three and that's a two man job. Was glad to see Wilshere drafted into the first team but for a while he was one defensive duty for most games and just sat back.

[Niall_Quinn]

This. Wenger needs to learn how to swtich between the too when needed. We look like we don't even have a plan A neve mind a plan b

Plan A, B, C, through Z is to tip it, then tap it, then tip it again. Tip, tap, tip, tap, tippy, tappy, tip, tap, Theo falls over, tap, tippy, tappy, Theo falls over, tappy, tip, tap... repeat until final whistle. Theo falls over.

[I_Killed_Kenny]

Slight variation on the formation, 4-2-3-1, basically 2 central MF.

back 5 as per usual (whoever is fit)

Song Wilshire

Gervinho RVP Arteta

Theo

basically jack and song being the 2 central figures, as someone said, song being the defensive player and jack to be more offensive. 1 defo winger in gervinho and (just cos we havent really got another proven winger) arteta playing the pires role. Rvp to drop deeper in a total free role. as he does most of the games nowadays to get the ball and thick theo smallcock to just stay up top and make the runs. This way he wont get lost down the flanks! arsh to fill in once RVP has his customary time off for 3 months.

only really Arteta playing out of position

[milla]

Slight variation on the formation, 4-2-3-1, basically 2 central MF.

back 5 as per usual (whoever is fit)

Song Wilshire

Gervinho RVP Arteta

Theo

basically jack and song being the 2 central figures, as someone said, song being the defensive player and jack to be more offensive. 1 defo winger in gervinho and (just cos we havent really got another proven winger) arteta playing the pires role. Rvp to drop deeper in a total free role. as he does most of the games nowadays to get the ball and thick theo smallcock to just stay up top and make the runs. This way he wont get lost down the flanks! arsh to fill in once RVP has his customary time off for 3 months.

only really Arteta playing out of position

OMG, he killed Kenny :faint:

[I_Killed_Kenny]

OMG, he killed Kenny :faint:

i know, i know, i'm a bastard!

[Dog Toffee]

Sack Wenger and change our formation to a something that suits none of our players, just in time for our next PL game- that'l certainly improve things.

[LDG]

“I think Podolski will play more central for us,” he said in Beijing.

“Giroud is a different target man who would be more the player in a 4-4-2.

“He knocks the ball down, protects the ball well, makes play for his partners, and is a very intelligent player who has great physique, as well as being very strong in the air.”



Interesting from Wenget.

[Master Splinter]

Podolski's attributes are more suited to a central role.

As well you know this means of course SC week is back on.

[I_Killed_Kenny]

4-4-2!!!!! we actually were good when we played that! we won things! oh the memories!

[Joker]

I can see us getting overrun in midfield if we play 4-4-2. Most teams are now playing with 3 in the middle, and I don't think we should change that.

[Cripps_orig]

Yes

Go back to 4-4-2. Change it around v certain teams though

[cricketsi]

I can see us getting overrun in midfield if we play 4-4-2. Most teams are now playing with 3 in the middle, and I don't think we should change that.
Yet you voted Yes :sarcy: What did you have in mind?

[The Ogg Monster]

Agree with the midfield argument. With 4-4-2 only Song will be our defence in midfield. Stick with 4-3-3, if wilshere returns from the dead we'l kick arse.