Its all about reaction

[Flavs]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14977442.stm

:yawn:

Same old shit mate, do something about it or shut the fuck up.

[Fats]

:blah:

[Flavs]

I did like the "we have turned a corner" stuff as well. Then we lost at bottom of the league, fans hate the manager, owned buy some Indian chicken farmers, Blackburn

Arsenal :pal:

[Fats]

Bullshit

1) noun. Stuff that is made up for the purpose of placating someone, or passing an exam, or getting elected to office. Most often false or ridiculous.
2) verb. To generate bullshit.
3) interjection. Accusing someone of bullshitting.
4) adjective. Identifying or suspecting something as bullshit.

[Joker]

******* doesn't half sprout some shite. 95% of what he says is complete bullshit. Recently at an Elite Manager's conference he suggested that you should be allowed to be offside from throw-ins, simply because we struggle to deal with them. This is typical *******, he wants the world to change to suit him and his needs and his completely unwilling to adapt to changing circumstances. He's become so conservative that he's destroying our club from within (along with the board)

[Flavs]

He used to say this shit just to wind the press up and it was delivered with a wry smile and boyish charm. But i think he has been saying it for that long now he has started to believe it.

[Flavs]

Wenger will not be sacked

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14977442.stm

[Ollie the Optimist]

Wenger will not be sacked

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14977442.stm

is that arsene's first vote of confidence?

[Cripps_orig]

Gazidis :doh:

Has there ever been a more waste of space at a football club than this guy?

[Marc Overmars]

Ah yes, bouncing back, we've been trying that for years to no avail.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Gazidis :doh:

Has there ever been a more waste of space at a football club than this guy?

He's up there with Igors Stepanovs.

[Özim]

Gazidis is Wenger's puppet so this no surprise. He's right Wenger hasn't become a bad manager overnight, it's taken him 6 years :coffee:

[Ollie the Optimist]

wenger is not a bad manger, you know it, i know it, we all know it. yes its not working for him here but if he left somoene would snap him up in a heartbeat

[Özim]

This sh*t is going to go on forever, we're hearing the same cr*p we always hear....basically they don't give a sh*t, Gazidis was spouting some nonsense about "community" too, yeah sure buddy maybe if you lowered ticket prices there might be a "community"

Sick of this, nothing is going to change Wenger is untouchable basically.

[Özim]

wenger is not a bad manger, you know it, i know it, we all know it. yes its not working for him here but if he left somoene would snap him up in a heartbeat
6 years would prove otherwise, these days he's amateurish it's pretty clear.

His tactical nous, decision making, signings, blind faith, defence of his players and nonsense excuses point to a manager who has totally lost the plot.

We need a change, unfortunately, if you hear their words that's out of the question. :coffee:

[Ollie the Optimist]

6 years would prove otherwise, these days he's amateurish it's pretty clear.

His tactical nous, decision making, signings, blind faith, defence of his players and nonsense excuses point to a manager who has totally lost the plot.

We need a change, unfortunately, if you hear their words that's out of the question. :coffee:

i agree we do need change sadly think its time for him to go. sad to say that (well i am cos i love the man) but he is still a good manager imo. think he went somewhere else he owuld do it again and become good but just not here anymore

[Xhaka Can’t]

This sh*t is going to go on forever,

I have nothing to say.

[Master Splinter]

:haha:

[Özim]

I have nothing to say.
I know a man who does

[Niall_Quinn]

We represent the future of football. - Gazidis

Knob.

[Super Ghel]

Wenger will not be sacked

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14977442.stm


Gazidis said: "If we went out and spent all our money we would make bad decisions, so we've been restrained. "The club is focused on a responsible, sustainable model. Football's going that way and people are trying to get where we already are. We represent the future of football."

Nothing new or surprising here. The time has long since passed for Wenger to be sacked if he was evaluated purely on the basis or regularity of success he brought to the club pitch side. So for him to be consistently awarded bumper new contracts (highest paid in the league?), he must be delivering big time on the performance target(s) set out by the board, otherwise he’d have been shown the exit long ago.

So what’s this performance yardstick or important benchmark in which Wenger is judged by? None other than the bit in bold quoted above. And where does it stem from? None other than the people at the top of the hierarchy (unless you’re one of those deluded morons with no clue how commercial entities work in reality and believe that an employee is empowered to play master puppeteer in steering the strategic direction of the club) which in turn is laughable as it would then imply that said “custodians” of the club are failing in their primary fiduciary duties of acting in the best interest of the club. Thus the assertion that the buck stops with the manager is actually a logic failure which the Wenger out camp has no answer to this day. Come to think of it, if you blame Wenger for everything whilst not pointing the finger at the board, you are in fact helping to reaffirm the board’s stance that you are indeed a mong!

The logical question then becomes one of: Is the board right and of sound mind to focus their efforts on the prime directive of self sustainability first instead of pitch side issues? I don’t have a problem with the concept of sustainability per se. I think it’s a laudable aim but I suspect many like me have a problem with the fine print of how said model is implemented. The main problem with the board’s sustainability model is that, it is strictly one way street; i.e. the only contributing party to the equation are the pockets of supporters (paying the highest prices) and not themselves. If you look at it cynically, the only thing you’re doing is to help sustain these fat cats at your own expense at the end of the day!

The opportunity was there 2 years ago for the board to do the right thing when there were calls for a rights issue proposal (rights issue remains the only viable way to raise un-leveraged capital with zero risk exposure due to the structure of ownership in the club) but going this route meant money had to be pumped in, or come out from the wallet of shareholders themselves. But no, this was shot down by the board with the insinuation that it would not necessarily tie in with their vision of self sustainability (which is bollocks as it was plain to see the board were only trying to wind down their stake on their personal terms, not inject money into the club).

The board wasted no time in commissioning Rothchilds to spin some pathetic findings in their favour such as the verdict that premature debt settlement was non value added and the club would not save much by repaying early. Fine, there is absolutely no need to do so if debt obligations were well within their projections, but the immediate funds generated would mean a boost to our transfer kitty as Arsene would have a larger pot to play with at the end of the day. That much is irrefutable fact. But no, everything was honky dory when it suited them. No doubt, with the money making machine that is Arsene consistently delivering more than adequate returns with minimal fuss or risk of spending, the opportunity was too good for the board to turn down as they rubbed their hands in anticipation at the prospect of hustling the yank into meeting their asking price.

Not surprisingly, the only one who was prepared to put his money where his mouth is, was Usmanov, but there was very little outcry at the time because the partisan BNPesque mob bought into the romantic notion and the club’s clever line of “remaining bastion of proud English owners in the land”; when in truth, they were working quietly in the background towards their private agenda or aim of selling out for the highest possible returns when the timing suited them (for example Fiszman, who even managed to get the better of “1 out of the 2 certainties” in life) by sanctioning the parsimonious acts of an employee who bore the brunt of the angst from supporters on the frontline. Brilliant, no?

Then when some smart ones saw through this deception, their attempts at mass enlightenment were immediately drown out by these closet BNP wannabes who were quick to remind everyone that these good honest folk were trustworthy people who did not take a penny out via dividends (nevermind that any dimwit with any basic knowledge of finance knows that that retained profits subsequently re-invested back into the company equals no big deal or sacrifice on their part as it’s ultimately reflected back via capital gains or appreciation in share price). Besides, these so called men of honour were hardly living on peanuts but were in fact handsomely rewarded in their executive capacity - meaning they fall into high income tax brackets, and any tax smartass (ask ‘arry for pointers) knows that dividends is not a tax efficient method of extracting money from of the club.

As for Arsene (being a football man) himself, should he have said something or put his foot down knowing the circus act that was occuring in the boardroom? In the end, it comes down to a philosophical debate imo. Who has the right to determine the strategic focus of a club? Is it the fans, who want a steady stream of success and trophies, or does that right belong to the stakeholders who paid the millions to exercise legal control of the club? As an employee and a professional, was it appropriate for him to bite the hand that fed him? In the end I suspect that Arsene, being the idealistic dreamer that he is, with his utopian vision of how football should be responsibly run, saw nothing wrong with the leadership’s stance of self sustainability, as circumstances necessitated a collusion in congruence with the goals and ultimate decision by board members that it is the best way forward for the club, to help protect it against unforeseen financial pressures as a consequence of the stadium project. Hence the emphasis on youth project which so many of you abhor.

I don’t think the majority of sensible Wengerites out there think he’s untouchable, irreplaceable or beyond reproach, nor are they blind to his flaws, such as his tactical shortcomings for example, but all things considered, I feel they believe the real problem in the club lies with the board/owner and their insistence with self sustainability. Let’s consider this from a different angle with a hypothetical scenario. Suppose Wenger is asked to manage City now while Mancini heads our way, who do you do think stands a better chance of winning the league in the near future? And if Wenger doesn’t deliver the goods, do you think he’ll be able to hang on to his job for more than half a decade? Now you can begin to understand why the pro Wenger camp is worried about him leaving. And if the board is the real problem, then don’t you think it’s risky or foolhardy to lose perhaps the only manager who can keep us competitive in this climate with our board’s obsession with buy low sell high and their unwillingness to budge from our strict wage structure to attract or hang on to established quality? If we do get a new manager, do you think he’ll not have to bend over backwards first and serve our board’s primary MO as well?

The way I see it, you’re only left with a few possibilities at the end of the day. If you don’t think our board’s obsession with self sustainability is a major hindrance but believe Arsene is the one who is holding the club back, then you need to answer this question for me. Why hasn’t he been sacked by now? If you are still adamant that you are right, and Wenger has to shoulder the blame instead of the board, then we need to establish who is moron here do we not? Is it the Wenger out camp or the board? Since we already know that the board is firmly behind Wenger and regards the Wenger outs as mongs, how is this paradox resolved other than the inevitable conclusion that the Wenger out die-hards are mongs? :lol:

On the other hand, if you subscribe to the logic that the board’s priority with self sustainability is the major stumbling block in our pursuit of the PL trophy, then you either acknowledge that our board is the major culprit and accept out plight begrudgingly, or you move on and vote with your wallet. It’s pointless and a complete waste of time going on in circles about Wenger because (barring a major catastrophe), he’s here to stay for a long, long time. No matter how you try to slice or dice it, the irrefutable fact remains that Arsene has no power of self appointment to keep this drought in a perpetual loop, so if you’re sick of it, you either point the finger at the board or you move one. You’ve got to come to terms and learn to accept it’s either trophies, or self sustainability, as the two cannot co-exist harmoniously. And to hope that an equilibrium can be found in this era of unrestrained megalomaniacs where the two opposing variables can help fulfil all your dreams and desires as an Arsenal fan is just that, a wet dream.

[Ironing]

AMAZINGLY GOOD POST

[Niall_Quinn]

Amazingly obvious too. But it takes posts like that to uncover the obvious sometimes. As I said before, the board must be laughing its arse off with Wenger getting all the flak. Actually check that, I don't think they have the balls to laugh, they are more likely cowering in appreciation.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You’ve got to come to terms and learn to accept it’s either trophies, or self sustainability, as the two cannot co-exist harmoniously. And to hope that an equilibrium can be found in this era of unrestrained megalomaniacs where the two opposing variables can help fulfil all your dreams and desires as an Arsenal fan is just that, a wet dream.

A really good post.

But on the quoted extract, I only partly agree with it. You could say that about the major honors such as the League and CL, but there have been some shockers in the minor Cups, both of which were and are winnable.

But yeah, anyone thinking the Board are not culpable and ultimately responsible for this mess, dosen't have a grasp of reality.

[Joker]

Unfortunately, this "self sustainable" model seems to only work if the fans are being fleeced and forced to pay extremely expensive ticket prices.

[Niall_Quinn]

Unfortunately, this "self sustainable" model seems to only work if the fans are being fleeced and forced to pay extremely expensive ticket prices.

The board isn't lying, technically. They are sustaining themselves very nicely indeed. At the expense of everything else. Any other club would have riots outside the gate by now. We've been trained to do things the Arsenal way, which just so happens to coincide with the Old Etonian way, which just so happens to coincide with taking a woody right up the waste pipe on a regular basis.

[Özim]

Let's be clear though, if Wenger wasn't on board and perfectly happy with this he could have walked a long time ago, thing is he didn't as it suits him as well (let's not forget 6 million a year probably helps too).

The board are undoubtedly to blame, everyone knows that and many can't stand the board, the thing is however the manager stands alongside them, he could make a stand and ask for changes if he wanted to, but he won't because he's happy enough with the situation.

That's also ignoring some mystifying choices and decisions he's made on and off the playing field. Moreover he doesn't have to come out with supportive words about the policies all the time, he could just keep quiet if he disagreed, he doesn't because he fully believes in the direction we've taken.

Both are to blame, you cannot separate one from the other, though ultimately the board could sack him, why would they though when we already know money is their incentive rather than football?

At the end of the day some managers are winners and others put things above winning and prioritise finances etc, Ferguson/Mourinho clearly winners, that's their priority over anything else...and why wouldn't it be it's their job to manage the team and deliver on the pitch. Wenger has adopted this financial guru role where he see's himself as a moral guardian and has opted to put success 2nd, his choice but the wrong one IMO.

The great managers are remembered for their success on the pitch, not for their ability to make money for a club.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Zim, you just don't get it.

Send Wenger to the teams that can spend whatever he likes with no business model and he'll be successful there.

No Manager is going to be successful with the major honours at this Club under the current set up.

Even if Wenger were to have bought players like Cahill, Bellemy, etc. we aint winning no league - maybe a Cup, but the major trophies are beyond us - whatever we do.

Wenger needs to sort out his shit in the Cups and get someone in to sort out the defense.

[Özim]

Zim, you just don't get it.

Send Wenger to the teams that can spend whatever he likes with no business model and he'll be successful there.

No Manager is going to be successful with the major honours at this Club under the current set up.

Even if Wenger were to have bought players like Cahill, Bellemy, etc. we aint winning no league - maybe a Cup, but the major trophies are beyond us - whatever we do.

Wenger needs to sort out his shit in the Cups and get someone in to sort out the defense.
It takes more than money to be as successful as Ferguson and Mourinho whatever anyone says.

The point is noone is forcing Wenger to stay, he's chosen to stay sign new contracts etc because he agrees with the policies.

I don't agree major trophies are beyond us btw, buy the right players, motivate them, coach the team and set the team out correctly and anything is possible.

Mourinho won the CL with Inter and Porto after all, neither of those two teams have come close with any other manager in recent history, the quality of the manager and his ability to adapt, use tactics and motivate is very important. I don't consider Wenger a great because IMO he's lacking in a several key areas, his flaws have been exposed badly in recent years.

But yes whilst we adopt this penny pinching policy and accept a manager who puts winning second we'll never win a thing.

[Ollie the Optimist]

looking at wenger last season at the end i dont think you can accuse him of not wanting to him. the man look so upset at the end of season. he does care, his ways might be flawed but he cares about this club deeply and wants us to win

[Marc Overmars]

Don't think anyone doubts his commitment to the cause, I'm sure he's just as drained as all of us. Now it's about admiting mistakes, righting the wrongs and rebuilding. I don't expect anything from this season, I just want to see a bit improvement, better defence, more clinical attack and just generally rid ourselves of all the bad habits picked up over the years. Just something to suggest we can turn the corner. Right now you don't see a way out of this rot.