Are the glory days over for good?

[IBK]

We have fallen so hard and so quickly that many on here seem to think that a change of manager is the only option.

But we do need to remember that for all his faults, Wenger punched above his weight continually in keeping us in the CL places for the past 6 years - and we have a majority shareholder who will not bank roll anyone else.

We are not a great proposition as a club any more. No silverware for years; best players wanting out; a running joke defensively; an inherent lack of leadership on the pitch; a reputation for penny pinching in the transfer/contract market - to an incoming player we must look the epitome of lack of ambition. Jesus, even as fans we are learning to live with failure after failure (every Gooner I know tends just to shrug and smile apoligetically when asked about the latest dropped points).

Wenger talks about a cycle restarting http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-the-cycle-has-started-again-for-us. I believe that with more judicious use of the Fabregas/Nasri money, and proper planning he could have prevented the last one collapsing, but its easier to imagine ATM that what's starting is the proper spiral downwards for our club.

Is this it? Are we the Ajax of English football - a selling club that once played the best football in Europe but one destined from now on to live on fading memories?

- Well, are we?

[Flavs]

TOO MANY THREADS AAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHH :wacko:

[Marc Overmars]

For good? No.

Under Wenger? Probably.

[Power n Glory]

Has he really punched above his weight by keeping us in the top four?

He’d be punching above his weight if we’re finishing above teams like Man U and Chelsea, but our competition for 4th has always been lower teams like Spurs, Everton and Villa. Those teams can’t afford the sort of wages we pay and have never been able to mount a consistent challenge to reach the Top 4 year after year. It’s always been unstable down there.

There is a huge gap between us and them. The stadium and amount we bring in year after year dwarfs what they bring in. That’s not really punching above our weight.

[IBK]

TOO MANY THREADS AAAAAAARRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHH :wacko:

TBF - this is a slightly different question to whether AW should get the sack, or who should replace him. Its about trending - and whether we are on a one way ticket to Aston Villa ville.

[IBK]

Has he really punched above his weight by keeping us in the top four?

He’d be punching above his weight if we’re finishing above teams like Man U and Chelsea, but our competition for 4th has always been lower teams like Spurs, Everton and Villa. Those teams can’t afford the sort of wages we pay and have never been able to mount a consistent challenge to reach the Top 4 year after year. It’s always been unstable down there.

There is a huge gap between us and them. The stadium and amount we bring in year after year dwarfs what they bring in. That’s not really punching above our weight.

I think he punched above his weight in the thick of the stadium project, when there was a justification for being very careful with our cash. He kept us top 4, playing football that people wanted to watch, and brought in/developed players who could be described as world class. Spurs and Liverpool have/had as many resources as we do, and spent a lot more on players, but we generally finished above both teams.

[Flavs]

Don't understand why spending the money from Nasrigash would stop the down-slide either, doesn't matter which players we have on the pitch the application of them is a shower of shite, combine that with a disorganised defence and a lack of self belief and we would still get the defeats.

[Power n Glory]

I think he punched above his weight in the thick of the stadium project, when there was a justification for being very careful with our cash. He kept us top 4, playing football that people wanted to watch, and brought in/developed players who could be described as world class. Spurs and Liverpool have/had as many resources as we do, and spent a lot more on players, but we generally finished above both teams.

We still had a Championship winning team playing for us back then and I wouldn’t expect us to drop out of the top 4 because we didn’t sign a few top players. Chelsea and Man U went a season or two without major signings and still managed to win the league. Not saying we should have been able to win the league at that time, but dropping out of the top four should never have been possible. Not when we still had players like Henry, Gallas, Hleb, Cole, Campbell, Pires, Reyes, Ljunberg, Adebayor, Lehman, Cesc……

[Fats]

Well apparently we can compete financially so yeah

[Letters]

Wenger raised our level. We wouldn't have got and stayed in the top 4 without him, we wouldn't be at the new stadium without him.
He's failed to sustain it though and while it's harder now what with City going nuclear the mistakes he's made and the resulting decline is pretty damning.
Before the tail end of last season we weren't really in decline, it was more stagnation. Now it's decline and the rate of it is alarming.
I fear the players no longer have faith in him and when that happens at any club it's time to move on.

[BOBN]

yep, gone for good.

its people that thought having campbell, henry, pires and bergkamp - arguably the 4 best players in the world in their positions - was an everyday thing that have caused themselves most strife. they keep looking for the same high.

personally I thought the 07/08 side was excellent in its own right (so I cant accept wenger has done dikk all for 7 years) but the people who harp back to the invincibles cant see that.

[Flavs]

saddest/weirdest thing is that a lot of the problems could be fixed so simply that it is all the more alarming they aren't addressed.

[LDG]

saddest/weirdest thing is that a lot of the problems could be fixed so simply that it is all the more alarming they aren't addressed.

Well exactly.

RVP, Arshavin, Vermaelen, Sagna, Arteta, Song, Wilshire etc etc etc etc etc etc.

They are all very talented footballers.

We were right up there with Utd last year until the collapse.

We still have the basis of a VERY good team. Maybe not the same heights as City's wonderstars, but very good players nonetheless.

What is lacking is organisation, leadership, tactics and a few quality additions.

If we actually got the basics right, and bought properly in January, we'd be a force again. No doubt in my mind.

The problem is; Will they get addressed?

[Özim]

We wouldn't be at the new stadium without him.
You don't know that to be fair, every club wants a bigger stadium as it means more money, a different manager also might have won more....who knows.

He gets a lot of credit for the stadium and he was behind it so rightly so but he wasn't the guy who made the decision, it was the board at the end of the day (and it could be argued it's backfired football wise).

Wenger had success and you hear top 4 banded about allover the place, but Rioch got 5th the season before without the likes of Vieira, so the building had begun then.

Would another manager have been able to deliver more trophies in the time Wenger has been here, IMO a good manager would have yes.

[Flavs]

The problem is; Will they get addressed?

No

I posted pre-season on another forum about 5 easy ways to fix Arsenal, from what i remember;

1. Change tactics to a more pressing formation with a deeper back Line (4-1-2-1-2 or 3-5-2 will do)
2. Play with a true DM rather than a part time one
3. Play players in their actual positions
4. Sub/Drop players who aren't on form
5. Practice and practice and practice some more defending set pieces in training

[Letters]

Would another manager have been able to deliver more trophies in the time Wenger has been here, IMO a good manager would have yes.

No other manager in our history had managed to so I'm not sure why you think that.

Wenger shouldn't be solely credited with the new stadium but he DID propel us to the level where a new stadium could be justified. Graham's side, successful as it was at times, would never have filled a 60,000 seater stadium at the prices Arsenal are currently charging.

[IBK]

Don't understand why spending the money from Nasrigash would stop the down-slide either, doesn't matter which players we have on the pitch the application of them is a shower of shite, combine that with a disorganised defence and a lack of self belief and we would still get the defeats.

Well signing Mata would have done a lot more to make the football AW is still trying, unsuccessfully, to play more achievable. What is hugely worrying this season is that we are struggling to score goals when needed - as well as being a joke defensively!

[Flavs]

Well signing Mata would have done a lot more to make the football AW is still trying, unsuccessfully, to play more achievable. What is hugely worrying this season is that we are struggling to score goals when needed - as well as being a joke defensively!

Sorry mate but i disagree, i think Gervinho has looked the better signing so far and who is to say that Wenger could have done anything with Mata anyway. Everything is off kilter at the moment so i dont think personnel would change it

[selassie]

Sorry mate but i disagree, i think Gervinho has looked the better signing so far and who is to say that Wenger could have done anything with Mata anyway. Everything is off kilter at the moment so i dont think personnel would change it

:unsure:

Flavs, you are joking aren't you?
:unsure:

[Flavs]

:unsure:

Flavs, you are joking aren't you?
:unsure:

Nope

[Marc Overmars]

Gervinho's lack of end product is frustrating but at least he's getting into these positions. A bit like Adebayor in his early days with us.

With a bit of patience I think he will decent for us.

[Marc Overmars]

yep, gone for good.

its people that thought having campbell, henry, pires and bergkamp - arguably the 4 best players in the world in their positions - was an everyday thing that have caused themselves most strife. they keep looking for the same high.

personally I thought the 07/08 side was excellent in its own right (so I cant accept wenger has done dikk all for 7 years) but the people who harp back to the invincibles cant see that.

You're right that was certainly a golden period for us, one that we can never take for granted. However I think it's past the point now where people use the Invincibles to judge the standard.

People use an average football team as the standard now and even there we fall short of the basic requirements.

[selassie]

Nope

Just struggling to understand why you think Gervinho is looking the better signing.

I accept that it's early days for Gervinho and he has shown promise but if I'm being honest he looks to me like he's very much a Project/Work in Progress type player, I think Wenger has a lot of work to do to get Gervinho playing at a high level every week.

Mata on the other hand has looked as if he's hit the ground running, he's not an unknown quantity, he's pretty much the finished product. Wenger wouldn't have needed to do much work if any on Mata IMHO but that's the difference 10million makes I suppose.

[Flavs]

Just struggling to understand why you think Gervinho is looking the better signing.

I accept that it's early days for Gervinho and he has shown promise but if I'm being honest he looks to me like he's very much a Project/Work in Progress type player, I think Wenger has a lot of work to do to get Gervinho playing at a high level every week.

Mata on the other hand has looked as if he's hit the ground running, he's not an unknown quantity, he's pretty much the finished product. Wenger wouldn't have needed to do much work if any on Mata IMHO but that's the difference 10million makes I suppose.

Mata would have failed at us IMO he is that small weak type player that doesn't do well ( I am looking at your Theo here) Gervinho is bigger, stronger and looks like he has a bit of will about him that he will need here. IMO he is the better signing for us. Of course i would have had both but hey ho

[Özim]

No other manager in our history had managed to so I'm not sure why you think that.

Wenger shouldn't be solely credited with the new stadium but he DID propel us to the level where a new stadium could be justified. Graham's side, successful as it was at times, would never have filled a 60,000 seater stadium at the prices Arsenal are currently charging.
Graham wasn't far off in much less time that Wenger to be honest.

Wenger has been with us what 15 years, that's a long time and give a good manager that long I'm sure he'd have delivered a fair few trophies.

As for the stadium and prices, that's some sort of minor miracle I must admit as we're playing some horrible stuff at times and we collapse every season, it seems there are people who will pay regardless of what they get or how they are treated.

[Özim]

Gervinho's lack of end product is frustrating but at least he's getting into these positions. A bit like Adebayor in his early days with us.

With a bit of patience I think he will decent for us.
We've seen this before though right, players with no end product.....he's decent and energetic but in the final third he's been hopeless thus far, his shooting is weak, he picks the wrong option too often and just doesn't deliver.....bit like Eboue did.

I'm not expecting many goals from Gervinho though to be fair as he had a very average career goal record in France as well.

I think he has something to offer, but I don't see his end product improving under Wenger who's teams in the last 6 years have often had players who lack that end product.

[Fist of Lehmann]

As for the stadium and prices, that's some sort of minor miracle I must admit as we're playing some horrible stuff at times and we collapse every season, it seems there are people who will pay regardless of what they get or how they are treated.So what are you saying here? Your argument (against the assertion that Wenger could fill a 60,000 seat stadium and Graham could not) is that paying supporters are idiots?

[Master Splinter]

So it's not on! anymore?

:(

[Power n Glory]

Mata would have failed at us IMO he is that small weak type player that doesn't do well ( I am looking at your Theo here) Gervinho is bigger, stronger and looks like he has a bit of will about him that he will need here. IMO he is the better signing for us. Of course i would have had both but hey ho

But he has no end product and makes the wrong decisions. The type an experienced winger shouldn't be making at this level. We get on Theo's case about such things and Gervinho shouldn't be given a free ride.

[Letters]

So what are you saying here? Your argument (against the assertion that Wenger could fill a 60,000 seat stadium and Graham could not) is that paying supporters are idiots?

Till the last couple of years the football has still been very good IMO.
It's certainly not as good now as it was and this season it's been awful at times but overall there's no comparison between Wenger's Arsenal and some of the Graham sides during which the chant "Boring Boring Arsenal" was born. It was also the era in which "One Nill To The Arsenal" became popular which was another acknowledgement of our overly defensive style.
We really weren't a very good side to watch towards the end of the Graham era. We won a few trophies and if you don't go to games and just care about the end result of a season then I can understand people lauding that side. If you go game by game though you'll know it was mostly horrible to watch, the results were awful and we weren't even filling Highbury, we definitely wouldn't have filled The Emirates.

Graham did make the most of a mediocre squad and it punched above its weight although it has to be said that it was an era without billionaire owners and the gap between the haves and have nots was much smaller, it was easier for a mid-table side to win cup competitions in an era when the top few didn't mostly sweep the board because of their huge squad size and depth.

[LDG]

Put simply:


Graham Era ----------------------- Wenger Glory Era ----------------------Sugardaddy Era

Standard English Football---------- Birth of sports technology & foriegn unknowns ---------------- Money & Super Wages

Low Ticket Prices / Hardcore Fans --------- Families & Hardcore Fans -------------------------Tourists & Families & Corporate Seats & A Few Hardcore Fans

Boring ----------------------- Exciting & Fresh & Successful ------------------- unable to compete / business more important than football


:shrug:

[Özim]

So what are you saying here? Your argument (against the assertion that Wenger could fill a 60,000 seat stadium and Graham could not) is that paying supporters are idiots?
I likened them to Lemmings not idiots as such, you could say they are loyal and that's true of course (which is an admirable quality), but who spends a small fortune when they know they're being conned. Moreover in a sense it does more harm than good as it allows the board to treat fans however they wish.

Graham's teams didn't play great football to be fair, but the stuff we play now is also a total bore and on top of that there's a lack of quality and desire, add to that the sanctimonious attitude of the board and it's hard to understand why so many turn up to be honest, especially with so little complaints to be heard about the board and manager (at matches).

[Fist of Lehmann]

I likened them to Lemmings not idiots as such, you could say they are loyal and that's true of course (which is an admirable quality), but who spends a small fortune when they know they're being conned. Moreover in a sense it does more harm than good as it allows the board to treat fans however they wish.

Graham's teams didn't play great football to be fair, but the stuff we play now is also a total bore and on top of that there's a lack of quality and desire, add to that the sanctimonious attitude of the board and it's hard to understand why so many turn up to be honest, especially with so little complaints to be heard about the board and manager (at matches).It's a difference in outlook. Some people who follow Arsenal see it as a product to be consumed. Others are thick and thin supporters. In a sense those supporters can't be conned, because value for money is not a consideration to them. They have an emotional attachment to the club, an attachment that could be exploited by an unscrupulous board.

Consumers on the other hand will flock away in droves when the product isn't great.

Calling one side lemmings and the other side plastics just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of why people follow a particular team.

[Letters]

Put simply:


Graham Era ----------------------- Wenger Glory Era ----------------------Sugardaddy Era

Standard English Football---------- Birth of sports technology & foriegn unknowns ---------------- Money & Super Wages

Low Ticket Prices / Hardcore Fans --------- Families & Hardcore Fans -------------------------Tourists & Families & Corporate Seats & A Few Hardcore Fans

Boring ----------------------- Exciting & Fresh & Successful ------------------- unable to compete / business more important than football


:shrug:

That.

[selassie]

Mata would have failed at us IMO he is that small weak type player that doesn't do well ( I am looking at your Theo here) Gervinho is bigger, stronger and looks like he has a bit of will about him that he will need here. IMO he is the better signing for us. Of course i would have had both but hey ho

Oh come on, Mata is technically excellent, way way way above Theo's level. He's basically Nasri mark II Imho.

I do agree though that Gervinho has a lot of potential, if he bulks up a bit and finds end product then he could be like a Ade type signing for us.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Put simply:


Graham Era ----------------------- Wenger Glory Era ----------------------Sugardaddy Era

Standard English Football---------- Birth of sports technology & foriegn unknowns ---------------- Money & Super Wages

Low Ticket Prices / Hardcore Fans --------- Families & Hardcore Fans -------------------------Tourists & Families & Corporate Seats & A Few Hardcore Fans

Boring ----------------------- Exciting & Fresh & Successful ------------------- unable to compete / business more important than football


:shrug:Unpleasantly laid out but essentially correct.

Much like your face.

[Letters]

Unpleasantly laid out but essentially correct.

Much like your face.

:lol:

[LDG]

:haha:

My face is correct :unsure:

:shrug:

:trophy:

[Fist of Lehmann]

:haha:

My face is correct :unsure:
It's so wrong, it's right :good:

[Marc Overmars]

We've seen this before though right, players with no end product.....he's decent and energetic but in the final third he's been hopeless thus far, his shooting is weak, he picks the wrong option too often and just doesn't deliver.....bit like Eboue did.

I'm not expecting many goals from Gervinho though to be fair as he had a very average career goal record in France as well.

I think he has something to offer, but I don't see his end product improving under Wenger who's teams in the last 6 years have often had players who lack that end product.

I always judge forwards by their movement and tenacity, if these traits are in place then I feel goals will come naturally if you have a little patience. Look at Chamakh for example, a complete statue most of the time and very rarely gets himself into goal scoring positions. Can't say the same for Gervinho, I'd give him a little longer yet.

[Özim]

It's a difference in outlook. Some people who follow Arsenal see it as a product to be consumed. Others are thick and thin supporters. In a sense those supporters can't be conned, because value for money is not a consideration to them. They have an emotional attachment to the club, an attachment that could be exploited by an unscrupulous board.

Consumers on the other hand will flock away in droves when the product isn't great.

Calling one side lemmings and the other side plastics just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of why people follow a particular team.
I know what you're saying but I simply don't understand how someone could allow themselves to be treated with so little respect when they pay so much money.

Loyalty and emotional attachment are one thing, but common sense has to come into it surely.

[Özim]

I always judge forwards by their movement and tenacity, if these traits are in place then I feel goals will come naturally if you have a little patience. Look at Chamakh for example, a complete statue most of the time and very rarely gets himself into goal scoring positions. Can't say the same for Gervinho, I'd give him a little longer yet.
Not sure I agree, plenty of players have got good movement and are tenacious but lack a finish, I think Gervinho has got potenital but not as a forward IMO he doesn't seem to have the shooting ability.

[Ollie the Optimist]

i think if you look at our history, we have never really dominated for a long time like united have etc. how long did we wait for a league title before 89? wenger brought a period of continual success and challenges that have raised our expectations to expect it every year. of course we will be succesful again, whether wenger will make us again is debatable.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I know what you're saying but I simply don't understand how someone could allow themselves to be treated with so little respect when they pay so much money.

Loyalty and emotional attachment are one thing, but common sense has to come into it surely.If you've read Fever Pitch you'd know that common sense doesn't come into it. For some, namely the away support (or the hardcore as LDG likes to call it) this kind of cost-benefit analysis simply doesn't happen.

You don't understand it because your support doesn't work the same way.

[Cripps_orig]

Under Wenger, yes and probably the next manager as well as it'll take some time to get out of this rut unless the next manager is a miracle worker

[hobson's choice]

Maybe for now, yeah. But we'll be back, if we don't make the CL this year, this club will act, and spend. Cause our board are stingy cunts, who don't like missing out on money. And they've gotten used to the CL money.

[Boss]

Nope.

Arsenal are still the third biggest club in England and once Wenger leaves (assuming he is replaced properly) we'll be back up there challenging for trophies.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i think if you look at our history, we have never really dominated for a long time like united have etc. how long did we wait for a league title before 89? wenger brought a period of continual success and challenges that have raised our expectations to expect it every year. of course we will be succesful again, whether wenger will make us again is debatable.

Yoy make a good point there, but i think if we wnated too we could have won some silverware in these 6 years. Maybe if we took the Fa cup and CC properly we have trophies.

But i agree i think as gooners we have been spoilt, we think we have a right to be up there because of who we are. You can't live on pat glories as a club its what you do in the here and now that matters.

i don't give a two hoots about the last 6 seasons because its the past. But with this season expected better and hope we would have learned. Im sure we will have glory again in the next few seasons or come the end of this one. No reason we can't win the CC or Fa cups if we strenghen in jan. We could even win th Europa league if we go into that.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Graham wasn't far off in much less time that Wenger to be honest.

Wenger has been with us what 15 years, that's a long time and give a good manager that long I'm sure he'd have delivered a fair few trophies.

As for the stadium and prices, that's some sort of minor miracle I must admit as we're playing some horrible stuff at times and we collapse every season, it seems there are people who will pay regardless of what they get or how they are treated.

Thats called being a fan, and paying to watch the club they love no matter what happens. Don't make them mugs. Its not like they can't afford it is it. if they thought it was a waste of money or they were treated badly then they would not go simple.

[IBK]

Sorry mate but i disagree, i think Gervinho has looked the better signing so far and who is to say that Wenger could have done anything with Mata anyway. Everything is off kilter at the moment so i dont think personnel would change it

Mate - you perhaps misunderstand my point. I think that we have had, and still have a good group of players. But nothing has ignited the blue touch paper and really got them believing in themselves, believing in the club. There is a general negativity around the place that is visibly affecting our players. The main reason, IMO? its that nothing really exciting has happened for so long. A stadium project is exciting momentarily, but what football fans and players need a vibe to generate a sense of progress.

For years now, every time a Wenger project player has come through, he has left shortly afterwards. There has been a constant drain, that this Summer became too much to contend with.

Going in for Mata would have shown that we are still a big club that expects to win things - to counteract the Cesc and Nasri effect. The fact that we were pussies, and then caught with our pants down so late in the Summer is the main reason we are so bereft of confidence now.

Second, the reason I agree with Letters that the manager has lost the players is that this Summer saw him fail, almost embarrasingly, at what he is famous for being best at. I think they no longer trust him to win anything. A Mata type signing would have helped here.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Going in for Mata would have shown that we are still a big club that expects to win things - to counteract the Cesc and Nasri effect. The fact that we were pussies,
and then caught with our pants down so late in the Summer is the main reason we are so bereft of confidence now.
Second, the reason I agree with Letters that the manager has lost the players is that this Summer saw him fail, almost embarrasingly, at what he is famous for being best at. I think they no longer trust him to win anything. A Mata type signing would have helped here.

We were in for him if reports were to be believed, have to agree with Flavs don't think getting hin on his own would have made any diffrence tbh, its the sqaud mentality that needs addrresing, if he is not mentally strong then he makes no diffrence.

The only reason Gev looks poor is because plain and simple he is not sure he wants to be here its plain to see. even at Lille he had class around him and came here to find this shite id be pissed too if i was him. Must feel duped and humilated.

i agree on AW loosing the players, where as we all once thought if Aw left the players would but now its clealy not the case. The jan Window will be a big one for this club and no one can have excues this time.

[Niall_Quinn]

We have fallen so hard and so quickly that many on here seem to think that a change of manager is the only option.

But we do need to remember that for all his faults, Wenger punched above his weight continually in keeping us in the CL places for the past 6 years - and we have a majority shareholder who will not bank roll anyone else.

We are not a great proposition as a club any more. No silverware for years; best players wanting out; a running joke defensively; an inherent lack of leadership on the pitch; a reputation for penny pinching in the transfer/contract market - to an incoming player we must look the epitome of lack of ambition. Jesus, even as fans we are learning to live with failure after failure (every Gooner I know tends just to shrug and smile apoligetically when asked about the latest dropped points).

Wenger talks about a cycle restarting http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-the-cycle-has-started-again-for-us. I believe that with more judicious use of the Fabregas/Nasri money, and proper planning he could have prevented the last one collapsing, but its easier to imagine ATM that what's starting is the proper spiral downwards for our club.

Is this it? Are we the Ajax of English football - a selling club that once played the best football in Europe but one destined from now on to live on fading memories?

- Well, are we?

If we change the board, change the manager, get rid of 75% of the players and spend around £150mill in the transfer market then we might be competitive again. I say "might" because the end result of such a major overhaul would be unpredictable.

If we carry on as we are then it is downhill all the way. Kroenke has very much indicated he has no ambition for the club on the pitch. I assume he's looking to make his money by selling off our talent, paying up as much debt as he can and the flogging the club on the strength of its non-playing assets. Whether he can get back more than he's had to shell out buying the shares (unless he has a surprise waiting for us and will throw the club into a debt pit to save himself the outlay) I wouldn't be able to say. But a major stadium and facilities in London plus whatever other property deals they have going on, coupled with a large fan base and probably a swathe of rejuvenated sponsorship deals might see him clear a good enough profit. The it will all be down to who he sells to.

Whatever the outcome, for as long as we continue to be a vehicle for a very small number of businessmen to enrich themselves we'll never be able to do anything on the pitch. I think Kroenke will need to make at least enough investment to stave off relegation though, as that would surely destroy a lot of the value he's trying to build on the business side. I have no doubt if he could get away with stripping the club without having to worry about staying up he wouldn't bat an eyelid if we tumbled out of the top flight.

The board will have a hard time getting a replacement for Wenger, and even he's struggling now to build anything out of such a depleted squad. Who else could do a better job (considering any superhuman success squeezed out on the pitch against the odds is sold at the earliest opportunity)? Even so, in order to save there own hides and keep the spotlight off their rock, I'm sure they'll throw Wenger to the media if it buys them time to drain a bit more for the club.

[Power n Glory]

We were in for him if reports were to be believed, have to agree with Flavs don't think getting hin on his own would have made any diffrence tbh, its the sqaud mentality that needs addrresing, if he is not mentally strong then he makes no diffrence.

The only reason Gev looks poor is because plain and simple he is not sure he wants to be here its plain to see. even at Lille he had class around him and came here to find this shite id be pissed too if i was him. Must feel duped and humilated.

i agree on AW loosing the players, where as we all once thought if Aw left the players would but now its clealy not the case. The jan Window will be a big one for this club and no one can have excues this time.

I think if we'd have shown some backbone in the transfer window and signed players like Mata and Cahill early, it would have shown the players some intent at least. But we left it late and the damage was done from the Man U game.

As for Gervinho, he's always been a hit and miss player from what I read about him before we signed him. I don't think it has anything to do with our current state. He's just a sloppy player. Reminds me of Gyan in his approach. He has this uncouthness in his style. It's not like Ade, he reminds me more of Gyan for some reason. There is a sloppiness to his final ball and decision making.

[BOBN]

will take the media a while to catch on but mata is pretty much a spanish stewart downing. not particularly talented and benefited hugely from the spanish being the flavour of the month. sid lowe even admitted at the time he looked nailed on to arsenal that although he will settle better, he wasnt as talented as jose reyes, who was/is no genius himself if we're honest.

glad we didnt get him for that kind of money. a gotze/eriksen would have a bigger impact here.

[Grebbo]

Glory days are of course long gone.

We're trying to race a Fiat against Ferrari's.

Our Fiat is also being driven by Victor Meldrew which doesn't help.

[fakeyank]

glad we didnt get him for that kind of money. a gotze/eriksen would have a bigger impact here.

At our current rate, it'll be a miracle if we can attract the likes of Denilson and Diaby.. Gotze and Eriksen are light years ahead for a club like us

[Xhaka Can’t]

It is the unrelenting misery and wallowing in self pity of the likes of the post above that have turned this forum to shit.

90% of what is posted now is just mellowdramatic drivel.

[Flavs]

But he has no end product and makes the wrong decisions. The type an experienced winger shouldn't be making at this level. We get on Theo's case about such things and Gervinho shouldn't be given a free ride.

Difference being sweetheart that Gervinho has played like 5 games for the club and Theo has been here for what 5 year now and is no better than when he got here.

Can you imagine if we played with these 2 up top? Ball would be in the crowd most of the game

[Flavs]

Mate - you perhaps misunderstand my point. I think that we have had, and still have a good group of players. But nothing has ignited the blue touch paper and really got them believing in themselves, believing in the club. There is a general negativity around the place that is visibly affecting our players. The main reason, IMO? its that nothing really exciting has happened for so long. A stadium project is exciting momentarily, but what football fans and players need a vibe to generate a sense of progress.

For years now, every time a Wenger project player has come through, he has left shortly afterwards. There has been a constant drain, that this Summer became too much to contend with.

Going in for Mata would have shown that we are still a big club that expects to win things - to counteract the Cesc and Nasri effect. The fact that we were pussies, and then caught with our pants down so late in the Summer is the main reason we are so bereft of confidence now.

Second, the reason I agree with Letters that the manager has lost the players is that this Summer saw him fail, almost embarrasingly, at what he is famous for being best at. I think they no longer trust him to win anything. A Mata type signing would have helped here.

I see, surely the fact we did go for Mata and the greedy little bastard chose Chelsea instead sums modern footie up really. The problem we now have with buying players is that the second we show an interest in anyone the big money clubs come in and take over, Jones, Smalling, Mata all show that. Add into that Citeh waving the Benjamin's in the faces of players at other teams, heads get turned.

The other problem of course is the agents. We have an offer agreed for Mata and the first thing his agent does is ring the big money clubs and tell them so they can counter offer. Its a nightmare.

Bout 5 years ago the real Madrid president said that their scouting policy was to find out who Arsenal were after and get them first, I think Citeh, Chelsea and Manyoo all do that nowadays so its get harder and in turn we have to buy players that are of a lower level or even younger and less developed because we have no choice. Imagine how hard it mus be for teams like Wigan to get players in??

But anyway none of that is relevant to making the best of what we have, which Wenger doesn't do and that's why i want him out, i agree to a point he has lost the players. I don't think in a mutiny type way but i think they have lost belief in his ability the same way the fans have.

Time to go and get the Moyes in for me.

[Özim]

I see, surely the fact we did go for Mata and the greedy little bastard chose Chelsea instead sums modern footie up really.
So he's greedy because he chose a club who want to win things and have in the last 6 years over a club that has failed to win a thing, collapses every season and sells it's best players.

On a purely football level, Chelsea is a better choice for a player who wants to win trophies at this point in time, no question about it.

[Flavs]

In terms of the glory days I would say no, they are not over. We are a colossal club by any measure and the 3rd richest club in the world and that is while balancing the income and revenue against the stadium mortgage, which when paid off will make us debt free and with huge turnover. Also Usmanov has just been listed as the second richest man in football, way ahead of Abrahmovic.

However, none of that really matters if we refuse to play the game. While the playboy types exist we can either join in or get left behind, yes I find that as morally constricting as anyone but that’s how it is now. There is always going to be a team that can stick another nought on the end and we need to be one of these to compete, fact. The only way we would come out in front is if FIFA came up with some sort of relevant fair financial play rules…

Yes it would be brilliantly noble to self create a team that can win but another fact is that footballers are impatient nowadays and if a sheikh or an Oligarch appear with a free plane or a new yacht they will turn and run faster than the French infantry. Remember testimonials? I rest my case.

Our club is not reflective of the modern game anymore and while my conscience says that is great it’s not my conscience that is getting the piss taken out of it by Blackburn and Liverpool fans on a Monday morning. If Wenger won’t join in with the money game he needs to go and I don’t believe for a second that the board hold the same righteous torch that he does, they just say they do to back him when he is under fire. For the first time ever the team aren’t responding to him, the fans are turning against him (and the board he represents) and things are looking bad by our standards, we need a change but I wouldn’t hold your breathes.

If reports be believed Pat Rice had a hairdryer moment after the Spurs game, not just at the players but also at the other coaches and a certain Arsene Wenger, it will be interesting to see how the club responds from this. Perhaps the person we needed to have a word in Wenger’s shell like and tell him the wheels have come off has been here all along? Having been at the club for over 30 years no-one knows what a loss to Spurs means more than Pat Rice. Also interesting than when Wenger has been banned from the touchline we are unbeaten, is this because Rice is unbridled, able to shout and cajole and actually use substitutes the way they should be? After the stupid internationals break it will be interesting to see how the players react.

[Power n Glory]

Difference being sweetheart that Gervinho has played like 5 games for the club and Theo has been here for what 5 year now and is no better than when he got here.

Can you imagine if we played with these 2 up top? Ball would be in the crowd most of the game

The worrying thing about Gervinho is that reports in France say he's always been like that and he's much older than Theo.

Theo's been here 5 years, since he was 16 and he's now in his early 20s. Besides Cesc, how many players have come through our system at that age and really shone?

[IBK]

I think if we'd have shown some backbone in the transfer window and signed players like Mata and Cahill early, it would have shown the players some intent at least. But we left it late and the damage was done from the Man U game.

As for Gervinho, he's always been a hit and miss player from what I read about him before we signed him. I don't think it has anything to do with our current state. He's just a sloppy player. Reminds me of Gyan in his approach. He has this uncouthness in his style. It's not like Ade, he reminds me more of Gyan for some reason. There is a sloppiness to his final ball and decision making.

This. And again for me where we are now is not necessarily a question of different players changing things - its not like all our new signings have had the intended effect so far - its a question of the club and manager showing some ambition, direction and leadership - before this is translated to the pitch. Our Summer was shocking. What we needed was more than the typical Wenger 'underwhelming but might come good' signings. Everyone know that Fabregas was off and Nasri would be sold if the price was right. EVERYONE - apart from our manager in his bubble . The dithering, lack of foresight and last minute panicking was abysmal. And we are seeing more of the same dithering; lack of direction and panicking on the pitch.

[Flavs]

The worrying thing about Gervinho is that reports in France say he's always been like that and he's much older than Theo.

Theo's been here 5 years, since he was 16 and he's now in his early 20s. Besides Cesc, how many players have come through our system at that age and really shone?

Gervinho is 2 years older but has a league winners medal and a top scorer award Theo has?

Also 28 goals last season would suggest he has an end product

[selassie]

This. And again for me where we are now is not necessarily a question of different players changing things - its not like all our new signings have had the intended effect so far - its a question of the club and manager showing some ambition, direction and leadership - before this is translated to the pitch. Our Summer was shocking. What we needed was more than the typical Wenger 'underwhelming but might come good' signings. Everyone know that Fabregas was off and Nasri would be sold if the price was right. EVERYONE - apart from our manager in his bubble . The dithering, lack of foresight and last minute panicking was abysmal. And we are seeing more of the same dithering; lack of direction and panicking on the pitch.

:gp:

Yep, spot on.

[Power n Glory]

Gervinho is 2 years older but has a league winners medal and a top scorer award Theo has?

Also 28 goals last season would suggest he has an end product

But what are you seeing on the pitch and what have you heard about him from his days in France?

All well and good quoting the stats but from what I've seen and heard about him, he's a bit hit and miss with his finishing. As one fan described, the type to infuriate and thrill at the same time.

Also worth taking a look at his goal record when he was in his early 20's and compare that to Theo's. Days before he joined Lille.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If reports be believed Pat Rice had a hairdryer moment after the Spurs game, not just at the players but also at the other coaches and a certain Arsene Wenger, it will be interesting to see how the club responds from this. Perhaps the person we needed to have a word in Wenger’s shell like and tell him the wheels have come off has been here all along? Having been at the club for over 30 years no-one knows what a loss to Spurs means more than Pat Rice. Also interesting than when Wenger has been banned from the touchline we are unbeaten, is this because Rice is unbridled, able to shout and cajole and actually use substitutes the way they should be? After the stupid internationals break it will be interesting to see how the players react.

It will be very interesting to see what happens in the suderland game tbh and how we respond tbh. Maybe Rice has finally seen enough and may not want to retire seeing the club in such a state.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

But what are you seeing on the pitch and what have you heard about him from his days in France?

All well and good quoting the stats but from what I've seen and heard about him, he's a bit hit and miss with his finishing. As one fan described, the type to infuriate and thrill at the same time.

Also worth taking a look at his goal record when he was in his early 20's and compare that to Theo's. Days before he joined Lille.

To diffrent players though in to diffent roles. Theo is a striker and has always been but has not developed for some reason, where as gev is an attacking Midfilder and was bought as one. The only reason he plays as a second stiker is because we never bought a top striker like we should off.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

This. And again for me where we are now is not necessarily a question of different players changing things - its not like all our new signings have had the intended effect so far - its a question of the club and manager showing some ambition, direction and leadership - before this is translated to the pitch. Our Summer was shocking. What we needed was more than the typical Wenger 'underwhelming but might come good' signings. Everyone know that Fabregas was off and Nasri would be sold if the price was right. EVERYONE - apart from our manager in his bubble . The dithering, lack of foresight and last minute panicking was abysmal. And we are seeing more of the same dithering; lack of direction and panicking on the pitch.

Can not disagree and tbh we should have got rid of cesc Last summer and built from there thats where Wenger messed up imo.

[Power n Glory]

To diffrent players though in to diffent roles. Theo is a striker and has always been but has not developed for some reason, where as gev is an attacking Midfilder and was bought as one. The only reason he plays as a second stiker is because we never bought a top striker like we should off.

Totally agree with that but both play as wingers. Gervinho doesn't play as a second striker and we don't play a second striker system either. We've got one central player and two wingers/attacking midifielders that attack from wide position but can also drift in and swap positions.

[fakeyank]

If reports be believed Pat Rice had a hairdryer moment after the Spurs game, not just at the players but also at the other coaches and a certain Arsene Wenger, it will be interesting to see how the club responds from this. Perhaps the person we needed to have a word in Wenger’s shell like and tell him the wheels have come off has been here all along? Having been at the club for over 30 years no-one knows what a loss to Spurs means more than Pat Rice. Also interesting than when Wenger has been banned from the touchline we are unbeaten, is this because Rice is unbridled, able to shout and cajole and actually use substitutes the way they should be? After the stupid internationals break it will be interesting to see how the players react.

Is there a source for this? If true, one of the next best things to have happened since the 8-2 loss to Utd.

[IBK]

Is there a source for this? If true, one of the next best things to have happened since the 8-2 loss to Utd.

Here


ARSENAL NEED TO 'TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THEMSELVES'



Arsenal's players were read the riot act by club quiet man Pat Rice
Tuesday October 4,2011 The Express
By Matt Law Have your say(0)
ARSENAL’S crushed players were read the riot act and told to “look at yourselves in the mirror” by club quiet man Pat Rice after the derby defeat at Tottenham.

Rice accused them of letting the club down as they slumped to 15th in the Premier League with a 2-1 defeat at White Hart Lane.

Arsene Wenger’s No2 usually leaves all the talking to his boss but he could not control himself after witnessing another dismal performance from the dugout.

An Arsenal source told the Daily Express: “Pat went crazy in the dressing room. He left the players in no doubt they have to improve – and quickly. He told them to look at themselves in the mirror.

“It is quite out of character for Pat to be so outspoken with the players, but it shows how passionate he is about the club.”

The FA will this week contact Tottenham and Arsenal about abusive chanting aimed at Emmanuel Adebayor, Wenger, Harry Redknapp and Bacary Sagna.


Pat went crazy in the dressing room. He left the players in no doubt they have to improve – and quickly



Sagna broke his leg and it is claimed he was spat at by fans while he was being treated on the touchline.

[fakeyank]

Here

:patrice:

[Power n Glory]

In terms of the glory days I would say no, they are not over. We are a colossal club by any measure and the 3rd richest club in the world and that is while balancing the income and revenue against the stadium mortgage, which when paid off will make us debt free and with huge turnover. Also Usmanov has just been listed as the second richest man in football, way ahead of Abrahmovic.

However, none of that really matters if we refuse to play the game. While the playboy types exist we can either join in or get left behind, yes I find that as morally constricting as anyone but that’s how it is now. There is always going to be a team that can stick another nought on the end and we need to be one of these to compete, fact. The only way we would come out in front is if FIFA came up with some sort of relevant fair financial play rules…

Yes it would be brilliantly noble to self create a team that can win but another fact is that footballers are impatient nowadays and if a sheikh or an Oligarch appear with a free plane or a new yacht they will turn and run faster than the French infantry. Remember testimonials? I rest my case.

Our club is not reflective of the modern game anymore and while my conscience says that is great it’s not my conscience that is getting the piss taken out of it by Blackburn and Liverpool fans on a Monday morning. If Wenger won’t join in with the money game he needs to go and I don’t believe for a second that the board hold the same righteous torch that he does, they just say they do to back him when he is under fire. For the first time ever the team aren’t responding to him, the fans are turning against him (and the board he represents) and things are looking bad by our standards, we need a change but I wouldn’t hold your breathes.

If reports be believed Pat Rice had a hairdryer moment after the Spurs game, not just at the players but also at the other coaches and a certain Arsene Wenger, it will be interesting to see how the club responds from this. Perhaps the person we needed to have a word in Wenger’s shell like and tell him the wheels have come off has been here all along? Having been at the club for over 30 years no-one knows what a loss to Spurs means more than Pat Rice. Also interesting than when Wenger has been banned from the touchline we are unbeaten, is this because Rice is unbridled, able to shout and cajole and actually use substitutes the way they should be? After the stupid internationals break it will be interesting to see how the players react.

:gp:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If Wenger won’t join in with the money game he needs to go

And be an International team manager when he seems most suited right now. He don't have to spend money/ the team would easily pick itsself and he can build as many teams as he likes.

IMO is still a good manager just in the wrong mangement.

[Ernesto]

In my opinion, things are still "salvagable" at Arsenal. I'm probably going to sound like a broken record now after 8 pages worth of his thread but for our glory days to return, we need a drastic, dramatic change.

I want to take the season for what it is. I don't want to go all SSN on this topic and extrapolate our results all the way back to our Carling Cup defeat. If this season alone is anything to go by, Wenger should have been questioned after the 8-2 loss. An inquest should have taken place at board level. It may well have done, but if serious words were spoken to our manager by the fat cats at the top, then I firmly believe we WOULD have seen a difference- both in the transfer market and on the pitch at Blackburn, at White Hart Lane, and so forth.

Change the manager, change the mentality of the CURRENT crop of players (yes, I do honestly believe there isn't much wrong with our starting XI) and we'll see trophies in my opinion. We'll no longer be a selling club, no bad press about our fans, about our manager's shenanigans. That is my vision.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

In my opinion, things are still "salvagable" at Arsenal. I'm probably going to sound like a broken record now after 8 pages worth of his thread but for our glory days to return, we need a drastic, dramatic change.

I want to take the season for what it is. I don't want to go all SSN on this topic and extrapolate our results all the way back to our Carling Cup defeat. If this season alone is anything to go by, Wenger should have been questioned after the 8-2 loss. An inquest should have taken place at board level. It may well have done, but if serious words were spoken to our manager by the fat cats at the top, then I firmly believe we WOULD have seen a difference- both in the transfer market and on the pitch at Blackburn, at White Hart Lane, and so forth.

Change the manager, change the mentality of the CURRENT crop of players (yes, I do honestly believe there isn't much wrong with our starting XI) and we'll see trophies in my opinion. We'll no longer be a selling club, no bad press about our fans, about our manager's shenanigans. That is my vision.

Nah we'd have bad Press Wenger or no Wenger tbh. All clubs do.

[Fist of Lehmann]

In terms of the glory days I would say no, they are not over. We are a colossal club by any measure and the 3rd richest club in the world and that is while balancing the income and revenue against the stadium mortgage, which when paid off will make us debt free and with huge turnover. Also Usmanov has just been listed as the second richest man in football, way ahead of Abrahmovic.

However, none of that really matters if we refuse to play the game. While the playboy types exist we can either join in or get left behind, yes I find that as morally constricting as anyone but that’s how it is now. There is always going to be a team that can stick another nought on the end and we need to be one of these to compete, fact. The only way we would come out in front is if FIFA came up with some sort of relevant fair financial play rules…

Yes it would be brilliantly noble to self create a team that can win but another fact is that footballers are impatient nowadays and if a sheikh or an Oligarch appear with a free plane or a new yacht they will turn and run faster than the French infantry. Remember testimonials? I rest my case.

Our club is not reflective of the modern game anymore and while my conscience says that is great it’s not my conscience that is getting the piss taken out of it by Blackburn and Liverpool fans on a Monday morning. If Wenger won’t join in with the money game he needs to go and I don’t believe for a second that the board hold the same righteous torch that he does, they just say they do to back him when he is under fire. For the first time ever the team aren’t responding to him, the fans are turning against him (and the board he represents) and things are looking bad by our standards, we need a change but I wouldn’t hold your breathes.

If reports be believed Pat Rice had a hairdryer moment after the Spurs game, not just at the players but also at the other coaches and a certain Arsene Wenger, it will be interesting to see how the club responds from this. Perhaps the person we needed to have a word in Wenger’s shell like and tell him the wheels have come off has been here all along? Having been at the club for over 30 years no-one knows what a loss to Spurs means more than Pat Rice. Also interesting than when Wenger has been banned from the touchline we are unbeaten, is this because Rice is unbridled, able to shout and cajole and actually use substitutes the way they should be? After the stupid internationals break it will be interesting to see how the players react.

I would love to believe that all our ills could be solved with shouting.

But it's hard to imagine him going off at Wenger. Not so long ago, the perception was that Wenger surrounded himself with yes men and Rice was just the guy who put out cones.

Rice's stint on the sidelines may have opened some eyes, but it's a fair stretch from there to shouting at what is effectively his boss.


...I don’t believe for a second that the board hold the same righteous torch that he does, they just say they do to back him when he is under fire.

Doesn't ring true to me, but the only real test of this premise will be how hard they will try to hold onto him in the face of declining results (and consequent revenue). If the board really doesn't believe in sustainability, let's see them a) pay a premium to remove Wenger, b) expend money to recruit and c) make substantial (unsustainable) funds to back their new man.

I see them as being highly resistant to this, Gazidis' flat refusal to consider sacking, suggests this.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Very interesting to hear about Rice. . .would love it to be true but. . . .

1) its about 10 months to a year too late
2) our current crop of players are a) too stupid b) too pampered c) overpaid to take much notice of someone who has allowed himself to be molded into a classic 'yes' man

I have a lot of respect for Rice, an absolute servant to the club and I have noticed him at the sideline more. ?which is welcome

Cant help feeling that a new voice is needed that Wengers voice does not wake up the sleeping children anymore. . .sadly Wengers departure will mean goodbye to Rice, I imagine. A shame but like I daid word of a Rice rant is a bit late in coming.

:hail: Rice

[Power n Glory]

Pat Rice is a shouter but when Wenger first arrived and saw him take that approach, he told him that it's not the Arsenal way.

[Ollie the Optimist]

i would lol lots of if we won a trophy this year, well after waking up from the months coma produced by shock

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i would lol lots of if we won a trophy this year, well after waking up from the months coma produced by shock

Depends what trophy we were to win i guess. and it depends who your going to LOL AT

[Flavs]

I would love to believe that all our ills could be solved with shouting.

But it's hard to imagine him going off at Wenger. Not so long ago, the perception was that Wenger surrounded himself with yes men and Rice was just the guy who put out cones.

Rice's stint on the sidelines may have opened some eyes, but it's a fair stretch from there to shouting at what is effectively his boss.


.

Perhaps he has just had enough? He was very vocal until the last couple of years when he seems to have gotten beaten down by it all, never really believed he is a yes man either his reputation in the game is outstanding.

While our problems wont be solved by shouting, of course, perhaps a little bollocking might go a long way. We know Wenger inst a shouter so perhaps a short sharp slap is what they need.

Either that or its all gone to far and Wenger has indeed "lost" the players, as it were

[Flavs]

i would lol lots of if we won a trophy this year, well after waking up from the months coma produced by shock

We should of won the CC last year, IMO it would have made a massive difference to the club and the players. A winners medal to beat that monkey off their backs with would have helped mentally but the whole thing was wrong, the approach, the build up, the pre-match and certainly the 90 minutes, we genuinely looked like we couldn't be bothered, and if you cant be bothered in a cup final at Wembley, yes even the CC, you aren't fit to wear the shirt.

[Niall_Quinn]

Doesn't ring true to me, but the only real test of this premise will be how hard they will try to hold onto him in the face of declining results (and consequent revenue). If the board really doesn't believe in sustainability, let's see them a) pay a premium to remove Wenger, b) expend money to recruit and c) make substantial (unsustainable) funds to back their new man.

I see them as being highly resistant to this, Gazidis' flat refusal to consider sacking, suggests this.

Agreed, I see nothing changing whether Wenger stays or goes, maybe bar the usual, temporary bump gained when a new manager arrives. The facts of the matter are simple and yet almost completely ignored. The board has consistently failed to invest in the team. In fact it's worse than that, they have run down the team in a series of disastrous transfer windows. Whoever was calling the shots (let's face it, like any other company in the world it is the board that has the final say), the buck stops at the top. But the ultimate and damning indicator of who is most to blame for the demise of the team is spelled out clearly in the huge amounts of money the board members have personally taken at the very same time the team was descending into chaos. So many overlook this glaring point even though it is staring them in the face. This club is now in the hands of corporate rapists. They talk of sustainability and financial prudence, yet we cannot sustain even our 4th position in the league. Then again, they haven't been interested in sustaining the team for a long time now, as successive transfer windows have shown. But they managed to not only sustain but enhance their share value for the whole period up until they cashed in. This is why I'm sure they would say they have presided over great success. From their point of view it's hard to argue. Virtually zero money in and hundreds of millions taken out with a clean escape beckoning in time to avoid the ship sinking. They've done very well for themselves. I hope they die.

[IBK]

Agreed, I see nothing changing whether Wenger stays or goes, maybe bar the usual, temporary bump gained when a new manager arrives. The facts of the matter are simple and yet almost completely ignored. The board has consistently failed to invest in the team. In fact it's worse than that, they have run down the team in a series of disastrous transfer windows. Whoever was calling the shots (let's face it, like any other company in the world it is the board that has the final say), the buck stops at the top. But the ultimate and damning indicator of who is most to blame for the demise of the team is spelled out clearly in the huge amounts of money the board members have personally taken at the very same time the team was descending into chaos. So many overlook this glaring point even though it is staring them in the face. This club is now in the hands of corporate rapists. They talk of sustainability and financial prudence, yet we cannot sustain even our 4th position in the league. Then again, they haven't been interested in sustaining the team for a long time now, as successive transfer windows have shown. But they managed to not only sustain but enhance their share value for the whole period up until they cashed in. This is why I'm sure they would say they have presided over great success. From their point of view it's hard to argue. Virtually zero money in and hundreds of millions taken out with a clean escape beckoning in time to avoid the ship sinking. They've done very well for themselves. I hope they die.

Well said :clap:

[fakeyank]

Agreed, I see nothing changing whether Wenger stays or goes, maybe bar the usual, temporary bump gained when a new manager arrives. The facts of the matter are simple and yet almost completely ignored. The board has consistently failed to invest in the team. In fact it's worse than that, they have run down the team in a series of disastrous transfer windows. Whoever was calling the shots (let's face it, like any other company in the world it is the board that has the final say), the buck stops at the top. But the ultimate and damning indicator of who is most to blame for the demise of the team is spelled out clearly in the huge amounts of money the board members have personally taken at the very same time the team was descending into chaos. So many overlook this glaring point even though it is staring them in the face. This club is now in the hands of corporate rapists. They talk of sustainability and financial prudence, yet we cannot sustain even our 4th position in the league. Then again, they haven't been interested in sustaining the team for a long time now, as successive transfer windows have shown. But they managed to not only sustain but enhance their share value for the whole period up until they cashed in. This is why I'm sure they would say they have presided over great success. From their point of view it's hard to argue. Virtually zero money in and hundreds of millions taken out with a clean escape beckoning in time to avoid the ship sinking. They've done very well for themselves. I hope they die.

AW would have never stayed with the team and renewed his contract in 08 or 09 (?) if he had so much interference from the board in signing players. And I have said this many times... with the personnel he has at his disposal, we should be doing much better than 15th place and conceding 8 goals at OT. Every semi-decent manager wouldve sorted the defense out in 5 seasons! Board could be wrong... I say could because I dont know what they say to Wenger. I will judge the team based on the manager, his tactics and the personnel available... We have a more than strong squad to be easily in the 4th/5th position but where are we? What is our record since the loss to Birmingham in the CC? Its all down to AW tbh.. board members could be cunts but the amount of power that AW wields at Arsenal, I cannot point to anyone other than him for us being in the shit hole!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

AW would have never stayed with the team and renewed his contract in 08 or 09 (?) if he had so much interference from the board in signing players. And I have said this many times... with the personnel he has at his disposal, we should be doing much better than 15th place and conceding 8 goals at OT. Every semi-decent manager wouldve sorted the defense out in 5 seasons! Board could be wrong... I say could because I dont know what they say to Wenger. I will judge the team based on the manager, his tactics and the personnel available... We have a more than strong squad to be easily in the 4th/5th position but where are we? What is our record since the loss to Birmingham in the CC? Its all down to AW tbh.. board members could be cunts but the amount of power that AW wields at Arsenal, I cannot point to anyone other than him for us being in the shit hole!

Did not know the season had finish. Its silly to put the blame on 1 person when the problem is bigger then that.

[Power n Glory]

When Wenger was at Monaco it was a similar parttern. He wouldn't spend the money.

[fakeyank]

Did not know the season had finish. Its silly to put the blame on 1 person when the problem is bigger then that.

You take one part of the post and make a point. How about you answer why we have such a fantastic record since the loss to Birmingham. I think that stretches to something like 19 games and 19 points (?)- relegation form. And add the failures of the last 5 seasons and you know that the problem lies with AW, not the board. None of you 'board haters' EVER answer why our defense is bad, why players are out of position, why our formation sucks, why we didnt sign a player like Parker, Cahill etc.. All you 'BH' (Board haters) will say that the board stopped Arsene from spending. Ok fine, but none of the questions above needs major spending or no spending at all!

Yes, go ahead and find something else to say against the board.. lets see how ticket prices are the reason the players cant defend! :lol:

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I said on a previous thread that I see both sides and the blame is more collective rather than individual.
Without a shadow of a doubt the blame for our pitch performances lie with Wenger but the fact he has been allowed to continue in the same vein is nothing but the highest case of negligence!
Due to Wengers almost immediate success the board has become blind, naive, you name it to what is going on.
As Wengers success, influence grew the boards interest in what was going on on the pitch diminished. So much so that when things started to go south they didnt know what to do then or thought they have no choice to follow the only guy who has brought success to the club mainly because he was saying that all they need to do is trust him a la the phrase 'Wenger knows'.

So what we have is a manager leading a board and a board being lead, a manager that thinks he knows more about football, success and the way to combine both than anyone in the club and a board who are still willing to listen.
We have a manager that fails to change his plan, that fails to see that other teams have him sussed, players like Carrol get license to run amok and CBs are told to pile forward every set piece, and not alwsys to score but to cause panic in our fragile defence because you can be sure we will shoot ourselves in the foot at some point. Midfields become congested and balls are played over our ridiculously high line of defence.

Do we change to combat that? Hell no! . . . .ahhhh wait a mo, yes we do! We play Theo wide instead of Arshavin :doh:
What we dont have is a manager willing to recognise failure or a board strong enough to tell him he is failing because do not tell me for all their lack of knowledge of the beautiful game that they do not see what id happening;

1) 6 years no trophy
2) constant collapses of league campaigns
3) little progress on orevious bests ie constant 4th finishes, knock out stages of of CL
4) average loss of 1 star player a season (that will change though but only because we wont have any star players)
5) and more

All of the above really supports FakeYank but for the BHs I support them vy adding we dont have a board that has the balls to slam their hand on the table and say 'enough' - they cant insist that we buy this guy or that because Wenger will just retort with his knowledge of the game but they would be wise to remind him and maybe themselves that ultimately the success of the club is what goes on on the pitch, sure they might be making a killong personally at the moment but that wont last forever especially with Cesc gone, there are no more cash cows RvP, Oxo maybe but when people start forgetting who we are as they are to a certain degree in Japan, no games for Miya, no Cesc = little interest, the board are going to have to look out.

I dont want to say sack Wenger but the board have got to state the obvious to him and that he is not getting it done, they need to be strong, no sports team allows for some much failure especially on the back of some much promise.

As I said before the two parties seem to be working to an agenda, which benefits no-one but themselves, but there is a risk, Wenger will completley destroy an increasingly tarnished legacy and the board will end up with nothing.
I honestly feel that before this happens Wenger needs to walk and take the majority of the boarf with him. . . . .

[Letters]

None of you 'board haters' EVER answer why our defense is bad, why players are out of position, why our formation sucks, why we didnt sign a player like Parker, Cahill etc.. All you 'BH' (Board haters) will say that the board stopped Arsene from spending. Ok fine, but none of the questions above needs major spending or no spending at all!

And none of you WH's concede the point that staying top 4 in the PL every year despite billionaires spending silly money, other clubs spending big too and our relative lack of investment is a pretty impressive achievement.
Some of the problems you cite above are, of course, down to Wenger. But some of you act like any idiot could keep a team in the top 4 of the PL year after year despite many clubs spending big and going through manager after manager and failing to achieve that. City and Chelsea had to spend obscene amounts of money to achieve it.

IMO it's idiotic to blame either the board or Wenger alone. If Wenger is being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should be insisting he does. If the board are refusing to let him spend more then Wenger's being put in an impossible situation. IMO there's blame on both sides.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And none of you WH's concede the point that staying top 4 in the PL every year despite billionaires spending silly money, other clubs spending big too and our relative lack of investment is a pretty impressive achievement.
Some of the problems you cite above are, of course, down to Wenger. But some of you act like any idiot could keep a team in the top 4 of the PL year after year despite many clubs spending big and going through manager after manager and failing to achieve that. City and Chelsea had to spend obscene amounts of money to achieve it.

IMO it's idiotic to blame either the board or Wenger alone. If Wenger is being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should be insisting he does. If the board are refusing to let him spend more then Wenger's being put in an impossible situation. IMO there's blame on both sides.

From that post, I think it is plain to all that you're just an 'AH' - an Arsenal Hater.

[Letters]

I'm a GFH, actually.





Gary's Face.

:p

[GP]

LOL

[Xhaka Can’t]

Punch me in the face and I bleed Arsenal red.

Hater.

[fakeyank]

And none of you WH's concede the point that staying top 4 in the PL every year despite billionaires spending silly money, other clubs spending big too and our relative lack of investment is a pretty impressive achievement.
Some of the problems you cite above are, of course, down to Wenger. But some of you act like any idiot could keep a team in the top 4 of the PL year after year despite many clubs spending big and going through manager after manager and failing to achieve that. City and Chelsea had to spend obscene amounts of money to achieve it.

IMO it's idiotic to blame either the board or Wenger alone. If Wenger is being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should be insisting he does. If the board are refusing to let him spend more then Wenger's being put in an impossible situation. IMO there's blame on both sides.

Again, the point is that NONE of my questions were answered. Yes, he kept us in the top 4 but with very minor tweaks, we couldve easily won a major trophy. And those minor tweaks are in the questions I asked above. The board cannot and I repeat cannot.. again, I repeat CANNOT organize the defense or make them defend better or play play Bendtner, Eduardo, Vela, Diaby down the middle.. Board cannot make AW buy a defensive coach!

Also very few Arsenal fans have actually asked for billions of dollars to be spent on players. All we are asking is to spend the money we generate from our income, fuck that, that seems hard, at least spend the money you make off of selling players!! Now, this is the part where the BH's will come in and say "the board tied AW's hands and took the money by themselves and wiped their arse with it".. well no, in fact FUCK NO, that is very far away from the truth. How do I know? AW stated himself that he'd not stay a day longer if there was interference from board or owner. So if PHW were to come and say to AW "Arsene, we cant spend 6 million on Parker coz I need to buy a new jet", I cant see Arsene just looking at that old cow and going "Zure, would you like to fuck me as well?"

Lets take the point of view of the BH's and say Arsene is a nice guy and he wont walk out of his contract... well, he didnt need to sign one a couple of years ago if the board was destroying his legacy season after season. Why did he sign a new contract? Well, coz he is a stubborn cunt who wanted to prove to the world that his bunch of toddlers can win the league and that he will be hailed as the new messiah of football.. well, we can all see where that is going...

[Letters]

Again, the point is that NONE of my questions were answered.

I said those things were mostly Wenger's fault :shrug:


Yes, he kept us in the top 4 but with very minor tweaks, we couldve easily won a major trophy.

I know. Again, Wenger's fault. But you're again dismissing how hard it is to keep a club in the top 4, especially in the era of billionaire owners.

Wenger's made mistakes, some of which he should have been sacked for. But to dismiss the last 5 years as a COMPLETE failure and say that any idiot could have kept us top 4 is idiotic. And, again, if you think it's just Wenger being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should have been harder with him and insisted he invest more. They're his boss, you can't completely absolve them from responsibility.

[Flavs]

Personally i would like to see more blame laid on the players. They seem to be the ones who escape all but the match day criticism here for some reason. I know that the AH's will just lay it all on the big man but come on, he set the team out and the tactics (sort of) but he isn't on the pitch missing tackles and jumping under the ball and and so on. Yes you can say "well he is in charge of training" but training isn't the same as match time.

You can prepare individuals as much as you like but if they just don't bother when they are on the pitch (That's Wenger's fault!)what can you do? Drop them you say, well we cant as we have to many injuries (That's Wenger's fault!) We also, despite the opinions of some on here, replace world class players with kids who have never played (That's Wenger's fault!)

If you watch his behaviour on the sidelines he is as pissed off as us, these players who came in at the end of the window (That's he board's fault!) haven't had time to settle in yet so they will make mistakes, which leads all the internet experts to say they are shit and a waste of money, money which we could have spent on really good players like Hazard and M'Vila and Pele and Cliff Bastin, which of course misses the point completely (Which i am sure is the Board or Wenger's fault as well)

Strange things are going on at the club at the moment and none of us is party to why (That's probably my fault) None of us know what the direction and strategy of the club are (That's' probably god's fault) and none of us know what Wenger is doing with the first team (That's Pat Rice's fault) but many are taking information and making wild theories from it, 1+1 = Potato, combine that with a lot of grudge bearing and grumpiness and its all so cloudy that we are clueless.

So my Theory is this, Not getting the players up for it and tactics - Wenger's fault
The players we have, the players we don't have, the money issues, the commercial and PR bollocks - The boards fault
The nonsense, half arsed, piss poor performances since the Newcastle comedy - The players fault
Everything else I blame on Fakeyank

[Letters]

I'd go along with that.
The players don't get enough of the blame IMO. They're the ones out there.
The AH's will say that Wenger's the boss so the buck stops with him.
But the board are Wenger's boss so surely the same logic applies.
It's far too simplistic to say it's all Wenger's fault.

[fakeyank]

The buck stops with the manager at every football club in the world.

- Whose work is it to motivate the players?
- Who should make sure we have experienced players in the squad?
- Who gets paid multi-million dollars to do the above?

Answer? Arsene Wenger. Like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I do not absolve the board of any wrong doing... its just that I (or many of the BH's) do not know what they have done. I know that for me AFC is a football club and I will look to the manager when I have to point a finger and that to me is Arsene Wenger and he needs to go. If sacking him does not solve the problem, then we can go deeper into 'conspiracy theories'.

[Flavs]

- Whose work is it to motivate the players? - Wenger and the Players

- Who should make sure we have experienced players in the squad? - Wenger and the Board

- Who gets paid multi-million dollars to do the above? - The players, Wenger and the board.

[Power n Glory]

I said those things were mostly Wenger's fault :shrug:



I know. Again, Wenger's fault. But you're again dismissing how hard it is to keep a club in the top 4, especially in the era of billionaire owners.

Wenger's made mistakes, some of which he should have been sacked for. But to dismiss the last 5 years as a COMPLETE failure and say that any idiot could have kept us top 4 is idiotic. And, again, if you think it's just Wenger being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should have been harder with him and insisted he invest more. They're his boss, you can't completely absolve them from responsibility.

I just don’t agree with this top 4 accolade you keep repeating. We were a Championship winning club with great players like Henry, Pires, Vieria, Sol, Bergkamp, Cole…etc. Going a few seasons without spending on major players wouldn’t mean we automatically drop out of the top four. It has been a slow and steady decline. If Man U or Chelsea decided to stop spending major money, they wouldn’t automatically drop out of the top four. You need lower to teams to actually overtake them and unless teams like Villa, Spurs, Everton get Man City type investors, that won’t happen.

[Cripps_orig]

AH?

[Flavs]

AH?

Arsene Haters

[Letters]

I just don’t agree with this top 4 accolade you keep repeating. We were a Championship winning club with great players like Henry, Pires, Vieria, Sol, Bergkamp, Cole…etc. Going a few seasons without spending on major players wouldn’t mean we automatically drop out of the top four. It has been a slow and steady decline

No, it hasn't. It was actually a very rapid decline from the invincibles of 2004 to 2006 when we just barely scraped top 4 on the last day. Then we improved again to the point where at least once we were genuine title contenders again. Since then we've declined again.

I do take the point that from where we were even by standing still we could have stayed top 4 for a bit but the turnover of players has been such that added to the pressure of other teams spending big to displace us I think Wenger has done well to keep us in the top 4 till now. He's done badly in other areas but it's not an achievement which should be dismissed IMO.

[Power n Glory]

No, it hasn't. It was actually a very rapid decline from the invincibles of 2004 to 2006 when we just barely scraped top 4 on the last day. Then we improved again to the point where at least once we were genuine title contenders again. Since then we've declined again.

I do take the point that from where we were even by standing still we could have stayed top 4 for a bit but the turnover of players has been such that added to the pressure of other teams spending big to displace us I think Wenger has done well to keep us in the top 4 till now. He's done badly in other areas but it's not an achievement which should be dismissed IMO.

That’s a good point and that doesn’t reflect well on Wenger. Such a rapid decline when we had players like Cole, Sol, Lehman, Toure, Reyes, Pires, Cesc, Henry shouldn’t happen. Chelsea have swapped managers many times and had dressing room fallouts but have still managed to keep their top four status. Man U lost Tevez and Ronaldo and had injury problems with their defenders, but didn’t come close to dropping out of the top four.

That’s not right. We can talk about the era of Billionaire owners but at that point it was only Chelsea that had crazy money to spend. Our team was still better than the majority and we had more internationals in our squad than most. Keeping us in the top four with that squad is nothing to clap about.

[Xhaka Can’t]

FY, I don't know what kind of organisation you work for, buy the buck stops with the Board. Everywhere. If they have an incompetent Manager and they do nothing about it, the blame lies with them.

The buck stops where ultimate accountability lies. There isn't a Club or organisation in the world where ultimate accountability lies at the position Wenger occupies in the Club hierarchy.

How you repeatedly fail to understand this most elementary concept is baffling.

[Flavs]

How you repeatedly fail to understand this most elementary concept is baffling.

You know he is American right?

[Power n Glory]

He's talking about results on the pitch and the way the team play. That's Wenger's department.

But, people are quick to blame the Board and always have been. More so before they look at Wenger.

[Flavs]

surely if the players are inept and that's Wenger's fault then the fact Wenger is also inept is the boards fault?

[Letters]

Our team was still better than the majority and we had more internationals in our squad than most. Keeping us in the top four with that squad is nothing to clap about.

The squad which finished top 4 last year didn't contain any of the invincibles, did it? It was a new squad Wenger built from scratch on a relative shoestring and was only bettered by two sides who can throw money around like it's going out of fashion and by Utd who have also spent big although with their own money. It's ridiculous to dismiss that achievement.
But if he gets credit for that then he should also get flak for the fact that we didn't win the Carling Cup and didn't push harder for the league when we were in a pretty decent position.

It's ridiculous to give him NO credit, but it's equally ridiculous to say he's completely incompetent and any idiot could have kept us top 4 over the last few years.

EDIT: I messed up the end of that, what I meant to say was that it has to be recognised that he's made errors which he should probably have been sacked for, but it's ridiculous to give him no credit at all.

[IBK]

I said on a previous thread that I see both sides and the blame is more collective rather than individual.
Without a shadow of a doubt the blame for our pitch performances lie with Wenger but the fact he has been allowed to continue in the same vein is nothing but the highest case of negligence!
Due to Wengers almost immediate success the board has become blind, naive, you name it to what is going on.
As Wengers success, influence grew the boards interest in what was going on on the pitch diminished. So much so that when things started to go south they didnt know what to do then or thought they have no choice to follow the only guy who has brought success to the club mainly because he was saying that all they need to do is trust him a la the phrase 'Wenger knows'.

So what we have is a manager leading a board and a board being lead, a manager that thinks he knows more about football, success and the way to combine both than anyone in the club and a board who are still willing to listen.
We have a manager that fails to change his plan, that fails to see that other teams have him sussed, players like Carrol get license to run amok and CBs are told to pile forward every set piece, and not alwsys to score but to cause panic in our fragile defence because you can be sure we will shoot ourselves in the foot at some point. Midfields become congested and balls are played over our ridiculously high line of defence.

Do we change to combat that? Hell no! . . . .ahhhh wait a mo, yes we do! We play Theo wide instead of Arshavin :doh:
What we dont have is a manager willing to recognise failure or a board strong enough to tell him he is failing because do not tell me for all their lack of knowledge of the beautiful game that they do not see what id happening;

1) 6 years no trophy
2) constant collapses of league campaigns
3) little progress on orevious bests ie constant 4th finishes, knock out stages of of CL
4) average loss of 1 star player a season (that will change though but only because we wont have any star players)
5) and more

All of the above really supports FakeYank but for the BHs I support them vy adding we dont have a board that has the balls to slam their hand on the table and say 'enough' - they cant insist that we buy this guy or that because Wenger will just retort with his knowledge of the game but they would be wise to remind him and maybe themselves that ultimately the success of the club is what goes on on the pitch, sure they might be making a killong personally at the moment but that wont last forever especially with Cesc gone, there are no more cash cows RvP, Oxo maybe but when people start forgetting who we are as they are to a certain degree in Japan, no games for Miya, no Cesc = little interest, the board are going to have to look out.

I dont want to say sack Wenger but the board have got to state the obvious to him and that he is not getting it done, they need to be strong, no sports team allows for some much failure especially on the back of some much promise.

As I said before the two parties seem to be working to an agenda, which benefits no-one but themselves, but there is a risk, Wenger will completley destroy an increasingly tarnished legacy and the board will end up with nothing.
I honestly feel that before this happens Wenger needs to walk and take the majority of the boarf with him. . . . .

A good post lamentably ignored.

Of course its a collective responsibility. But in the same way as I think its a bit facile to blame the players for their lack of performance, I think its ignoring the root cause to blame AW rather than the board.

Of course, there is a failure at player level. Cesc showed what was possible from a player at the top of his game basically being self-motivated and having exceptional talent - and we are seeing (and have seen since his spirit was broken at Wembley) the extent to which he carried our team.

But the level of self-motivation/leadership required is not something that is easy to find - and AW has taken it for granted too much.

To an extent, all footballers have motivation - it is needed simply to have made it to a team playing in the top league. But that x-factor that drives the team to succeed is a rare animal. We tend to see the 'fighting spirit' as quite an English trait - and maybe AW's selection of so many foreigners who don't have the tribal background of home growns is a factor in our lack of it. There is no escaping the fact that AW since 2004 has gone for technique over character - and that is down to his choice of player. My own theory is that the manager requires absolute subservience to his way of playing football - and that is why he eschews the likes of Scott Parker; Chris Samba etc even when they are within his reach. But he has sacrificed passion, heart and fight in doing so.

Secondly, if these qualities are missing from his team, it is for the manager to instill these in his players - and from where I am sitting, AW has utterly failed to do this. How? - By allowing players to underperform again and again yet keep their places. By his constant and increasingly bizzare excuses for failure. By his tolerance of the kind of stupidity we have seen from Diaby; Gervinho and (until recently) Eboue. By a managerial approach that sees him say nothing at half time until the last 5 minutes because he doesn't think there is enough to say for 15. By his lack of tochline instruction during games...the list goes on.

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the managerial failures that other people have mentioned - players out of position; the lamentable failure to admit his mistakes and get in a proper defensive coach; refusal to take into account the other team's set ups and amend his own accordingly; lack of training for set pieces etc.

But in the same way as responsibility for players' performances lies with the manager, responsibility for the manager rests with the owners and the board. It is they who have allowed Wenger to attain this God like status - it would appear for financial rather than footballing reasons. It is they who have self-evidently run scared of questioning the manager's methods; it is they who have refused to invest in the playing side of the team - when over the past few years modest investment could have turned top four into champions; it is they who have failed to secuure key contract renewals; it is they who by their neglect and negligence in giving the manager carte blanche over every aspect of the footballing side, and failing to question the manager's misguided faith in his best players' loyalty have ultimately overseen the running down of our team to a stage where we may well have dropped semi permanently out of the CL places and be seeing a real decline of the business of the club. A business that they are supposed to be such responsible custodians of.

[Power n Glory]

surely if the players are inept and that's Wenger's fault then the fact Wenger is also inept is the boards fault?

Yes, that’s true, but most fans have been really slow to catch on to the fact that Wenger is inept. It’s only been this season where there seems to be a general view on here that he isn’t up to task.

But it’s a different story for the Board. They have always been the scapegoats and I find that people are quick to blame them before they look at the manager. Over the years and especially over the past few months, people have started to see the type of influence and relationship Wenger has with them. But rather than look at the flaws of Wenger, people would rather just skip ahead and point the finger at the Board for allowing him to stay on for so long. But no doubt, if they had fired him two or three seasons ago, a lot of people would have given them stick for that and said they had made the wrong decision.

[Flavs]

Of course its a collective responsibility. But in the same way as I think its a bit facile to blame the players for their lack of performance, I think its ignoring the root cause to blame AW rather than the board.

Of course, there is a failure at player level. Cesc showed what was possible from a player at the top of his game basically being self-motivated and having exceptional talent - and we are seeing (and have seen since his spirit was broken at Wembley) the extent to which he carried our team.

But the level of self-motivation/leadership required is not something that is easy to find - and AW has taken it for granted too much.

To an extent, all footballers have motivation - it is needed simply to have made it to a team playing in the top league. But that x-factor that drives the team to succeed is a rare animal. We tend to see the 'fighting spirit' as quite an English trait - and maybe AW's selection of so many foreigners who don't have the tribal background of home growns is a factor in our lack of it. There is no escaping the fact that AW since 2004 has gone for technique over character - and that is down to his choice of player. My own theory is that the manager requires absolute subservience to his way of playing football - and that is why he eschews the likes of Scott Parker; Chris Samba etc even when they are within his reach. But he has sacrificed passion, heart and fight in doing so.

Secondly, if these qualities are missing from his team, it is for the manager to instill these in his players - and from where I am sitting, AW has utterly failed to do this. How? - By allowing players to underperform again and again yet keep their places. By his constant and increasingly bizzare excuses for failure. By his tolerance of the kind of stupidity we have seen from Diaby; Gervinho and (until recently) Eboue. By a managerial approach that sees him say nothing at half time until the last 5 minutes because he doesn't think there is enough to say for 15. By his lack of tochline instruction during games...the list goes on.

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the managerial failures that other people have mentioned - players out of position; the lamentable failure to admit his mistakes and get in a proper defensive coach; refusal to take into account the other team's set ups and amend his own accordingly; lack of training for set pieces etc.

But in the same way as responsibility for players' performances lies with the manager, responsibility for the manager rests with the owners and the board. It is they who have allowed Wenger to attain this God like status - it would appear for financial rather than footballing reasons. It is they who have self-evidently run scared of questioning the manager's methods; it is they who have refused to invest in the playing side of the team - when over the past few years modest investment could have turned top four into champions; it is they who have failed to secuure key contract renewals; it is they who by their neglect and negligence in giving the manager carte blanche over every aspect of the footballing side, and failing to question the manager's misguided faith in his best players' loyalty have ultimately overseen the running down of our team to a stage where we may well have dropped semi permanently out of the CL places and be seeing a real decline of the business of the club. A business that they are supposed to be such responsible custodians of.

you fucking rock dude

The board wont sack Wenger as long as we are making money simple as that, the reason being is that they are money men not football men. And the more that get replaced by these Kroenke flunkees the worse it will get.

Balance sheet>team sheet

[IBK]

The squad which finished top 4 last year didn't contain any of the invincibles, did it? It was a new squad Wenger built from scratch on a relative shoestring and was only bettered by two sides who can throw money around like it's going out of fashion and by Utd who have also spent big although with their own money. It's ridiculous to dismiss that achievement.
But if he gets credit for that then he should also get flak for the fact that we didn't win the Carling Cup and didn't push harder for the league when we were in a pretty decent position.

It's ridiculous to give him NO credit, but it's equally ridiculous to say he's completely incompetent and any idiot could have kept us top 4 over the last few years.

EDIT: I messed up the end of that, what I meant to say was that it has to be recognised that he's made errors which he should probably have been sacked for, but it's ridiculous to give him no credit at all.

I agree to an extent - but by the same token, which teams outside the top four matched the quality of our players last season? If you argue that in some seasons since 2005 the manager attained CL football by over-performing with the squad available to him, you could argue also that last season and in 2008/9 the manager had a side well capable of winning the league, but failed.

[Power n Glory]

The squad which finished top 4 last year didn't contain any of the invincibles, did it? It was a new squad Wenger built from scratch on a relative shoestring and was only bettered by two sides who can throw money around like it's going out of fashion and by Utd who have also spent big although with their own money. It's ridiculous to dismiss that achievement.
But if he gets credit for that then he should also get flak for the fact that we didn't win the Carling Cup and didn't push harder for the league when we were in a pretty decent position.

It's ridiculous to give him NO credit, but it's equally ridiculous to say he's completely incompetent and any idiot could have kept us top 4 over the last few years.

EDIT: I messed up the end of that, what I meant to say was that it has to be recognised that he's made errors which he should probably have been sacked for, but it's ridiculous to give him no credit at all.

How many squads can really throw money around?

[Flavs]

How many squads can really throw money around?

Man Utd
Chelsea
Manchester City
Liverpool
Spurs

And that's just in the EPL

[IBK]

How many squads can really throw money around?

3. And we are now falling behind clubs that are essentially as limited or more limited than we are finance wise.

[Letters]

How many squads can really throw money around?

The three who finished above us can.
Liverpool and Spurs have thrown quite a bit around too to try and displace us in the top 4 and failed.
This season top 4 is looking a long way away (although a few good wins and it all gets close again, it's only October) but till now Wenger's done well to keep us top 4 and badly not to have won a trophy or 3 given how close we've got on a few occasions. His achievement of keeping us top 4 should not be overlooked but his failure to land trophies should not be dismissed either.
As always on here, people fail to see a middle ground between "Wenger is the greatest genius in human history" and "Wenger is a bumbling incompetent who couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag".

[IBK]

Man Utd
Chelsea
Manchester City
Liverpool
Spurs

Neither Liverpool nor Spurs can afford the kind of salaries that are required for the very, very best players - look at the Modric scenario at Spurs, for example.
£6OK per week. I would be willing to bet that certainly until this season, our wage bill was the equal of theirs.

[IBK]

The three who finished above us can.
Liverpool and Spurs have thrown quite a bit around too to try and displace us in the top 4 and failed.
This season top 4 is looking a long way away (although a few good wins and it all gets close again, it's only October) but till now Wenger's done well to keep us top 4 and badly not to have won a trophy or 3 given how close we've got on a few occasions. His achievement of keeping us top 4 should not be overlooked but his failure to land trophies should not be dismissed either.
As always on here, people fail to see a middle ground between "Wenger is the greatest genius in human history" and "Wenger is a bumbling incompetent who couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag".

Are people really saying that, though? The sense I'm getting is that people are disenchanted at how the powers of a manager who used to have a reputation as one of the world's best seem to be declining at a frankly alarming rate. I'm not even sure that this is down to ability - IMO its more a loss of perspective. And many of the most successful leaders in human history have been afflicted by this in the end.

[Flavs]

Neither Liverpool nor Spurs can afford the kind of salaries that are required for the very, very best players - look at the Modric scenario at Spurs, for example.
£6OK per week. I would be willing to bet that certainly until this season, our wage bill was the equal of theirs.

Maybe, but we massively overpay shite players. Spurs have spent obscene amounts of money in the last 5 years, look at when Harry came in and bought back the players that had left like Defoe and Keane.

Liverpool were on the brink of bankruptcy and then this speccy twat comes in and they are spending £35mil on Jimmy Nail, £20mil on Downs and £20mil on Henderson and so on.

Also the big misconception in football is that Fergie doesn't spend much money, despite spending £28mil on Rio, £27mil on Rooney and so on.

[Power n Glory]

So we're saying three clubs can out spend us. One of which has only just come on the scene. You can't say top four is punching above our weight.

[Power n Glory]

3. And we are now falling behind clubs that are essentially as limited or more limited than we are finance wise.

Which is the point I'm getting at.

[Xhaka Can’t]

No. But you can say finishing top 4 or better every year is punching above our weight, particularly so when it was accomplished while undertaking the biggest capital infrastructure project in the history of world club football.

[Flavs]

So we're saying three clubs can out spend us. One of which has only just come on the scene. You can't say top four is punching above our weight.

While stripping out and completely replacing the core of arguably the best league team this country has ever seen and undertaking a near £500mil stadium move i think you can

[Power n Glory]

But it's not as if we've been without world class players during that period. We took on the move but we didn't lose players like Henry and co overnight.

Also, there hasn't been a team under us that can match our wage bill or attract international stars. The teams below us can't match us because of stadium, wages, appeal...etc. We're not some small time team punching above our weight.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Neither Liverpool nor Spurs can afford the kind of salaries that are required for the very, very best players - look at the Modric scenario at Spurs, for example.
£6OK per week. I would be willing to bet that certainly until this season, our wage bill was the equal of theirs.Not at all.
Spurs' wage bill is well well below ours and has been for a while. It's in transfer fees that they have far outstripped us.

This, I assume is because it's easier for Harry to hide kickbacks in large transfer fees. It's just a theory.

[Özim]

He's done an awful job of stripping out and replacing a team of world class players frankly, could have easily done a much better job.

Looking at the team in recent years there's been a distinct overall lack of top quality players, character, desire to win and leadership.

he lack of planning for departures has also been very amateurish, time and time again he's let our better players go with noone lined-up, he never learns unfortunately which is a big problem for us.

The guy gets far too much credit for the sh*tty job he's been doing in recent years.

[Power n Glory]

He's done an awful job of stripping out and replacing a team of world class players frankly, could have easily done a much better job.

Looking at the team in recent years there's been a distinct overall lack of top quality players, character, desire to win and leadership.

he lack of planning for departures has also been very amateurish, time and time again he's let our better players go with noone lined-up, he never learns unfortunately which is a big problem for us.

The guy gets far too much credit for the sh*tty job he's been doing in recent years.

I wouldn't say he's done an awful job with the players we've signed. He just hasn't been able to keep a hold of them, keep them fit, or get the best out of them.

We've had moments where the team looks like title contenders and then we've blown it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He's done an awful job of stripping out and replacing a team of world class players frankly, could have easily done a much better job.

Looking at the team in recent years there's been a distinct overall lack of top quality players, character, desire to win and leadership.he lack of planning for departures has also been very amateurish, time and time again he's let our better players go with noone lined-up, he never learns unfortunately which is a big problem for us.

The guy gets far too much credit for the sh*tty job he's been doing in recent years.

he did that because the aim of the club was top 4 not winning the league no problems there. the only problem was the sqaud being arrogant and thinking all they had to do to win was turn up.

[Özim]

he did that because the aim of the club was top 4 not winning the league no problems there. the only problem was the sqaud being arrogant and thinking all they had to do to win was turn up.
More fool him then, he's a manager not an economist a manager should do his best in footballing terms and should leave the financials to the people that know about these and are employed to deal with that side.

In my eyes he's no longer a manager, he's decided he's now a financial expert with a bit of knowledge of football, he's clearly tactically inept and can't spot obvious footballing problems...doesn't make him good at management really.

[Özim]

I wouldn't say he's done an awful job with the players we've signed. He just hasn't been able to keep a hold of them, keep them fit, or get the best out of them.

We've had moments where the team looks like title contenders and then we've blown it.
I don't think there's been that many good signings, his success rate has been pretty low. As for not holding onto them, a lot of it is down to him and his policies...if you prioritise the financial side over winning you're never going to convince players to shun bigger pay days to stay.....you can't keep failing and expect players to stick around. His blind faith and over nurturing has also created players who expect to get things rather that working to get them.

What's worse is he doesn't seem to be able to see beyond the end of his nose, the same patterns repeat themselves over and over and he never learns from them, didn't think it was possible to be so blind to the the reality of things.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

More fool him then, he's a manager not an economist a manager should do his best in footballing terms and should leave the financials to the people that know about these and are employed to deal with that side.

In my eyes he's no longer a manager, he's decided he's now a financial expert with a bit of knowledge of football, he's clearly tactically inept and can't spot obvious footballing problems...doesn't make him good at management really.


Grimandi criticised the fans' failure to understand Arsenal's monetary issues in matching their demands to bring star quality to the Emirates.
"There are no proven big stars currently on the market," he said.
"Besides we are not competing on a level playing field with Manchester City and Chelsea.
"Our means are limited by comparison and our pay structure prevents us going crazy when we sign players.
"The fans want us to bring in star names, but they don't all grasp our economic limitations."


http://www.skysports.com/story/0,,11670_7235008,00.html

[Özim]

Grimandi criticised the fans' failure to understand Arsenal's monetary issues in matching their demands to bring star quality to the Emirates.
"There are no proven big stars currently on the market," he said.
"Besides we are not competing on a level playing field with Manchester City and Chelsea.
"Our means are limited by comparison and our pay structure prevents us going crazy when we sign players.
"The fans want us to bring in star names, but they don't all grasp our economic limitations."


http://www.skysports.com/story/0,,11670_7235008,00.html
Economic limitations?

I don't think that's the issue at all, it more the fact we don't want to pay up!

There's been plenty of players we could have signed that would have improved us, trouble is Wenger is always either too slow or too cheap, when he's not he comes out with BS about not wanting to kill his kids who ironically stick two fingers up at him and leave whenever they feel like it.

A flawed policy and flawed manager, he could spend money on the right players but he chooses to play the cheap card everytime.

Noone expects 40 million pound signings, but we do expect some quality to come.....as for competing with Chelsea and City....are they still using that excuse....there are loads of players around and they can't buy them all!

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Economic limitations?

I don't think that's the issue at all, it more the fact we don't want to pay up!

There's been plenty of players we could have signed that would have improved us, trouble is Wenger is always either too slow or too cheap, when he's not he comes out with BS about not wanting to kill his kids who ironically stick two fingers up at him and leave whenever they feel like it.

A flawed policy and flawed manager, he could spend money on the right players but he chooses to play the cheap card everytime.

Noone expects 40 million pound signings, but we do expect some quality to come.....as for competing with Chelsea and City....are they still using that excuse....there are loads of players around and they can't buy them all!

I agree with your whole post and what you say is right, there is players out there fine, but lets be real most gooners want big players now don't they. when he says compete with the chavs and city i think he means on a wages structure we can't do that and it would be silly to pretend we could just offer anything above 140K a week. Lots of big players want big moneys that we can't afford thats the problem. But i agree we can be slow on transfers which is frustating.

really we should have our tagerts for Jan window now make sure a repeat of summer does not happen again.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I wouldn't say he's done an awful job with the players we've signed. He just hasn't been able to keep a hold of them, keep them fit, or get the best out of them.

We've had moments where the team looks like title contenders and then we've blown it.

this is where you could blame the manager for not addressing the menatal problems or the players for not standing up and be counted for.

[Özim]

I agree with your whole post and what you say is right, there is players out there fine, but lets be real most gooners want big players now don't they. when he says compete with the chavs and city i think he means on a wages structure we can't do that and it would be silly to pretend we could just offer anything above 140K a week. Lots of big players want big moneys that we can't afford thats the problem. But i agree we can be slow on transfers which is frustating.

really we should have our tagerts for Jan window now make sure a repeat of summer does not happen again.
I don't think we'll see much in January, we'll improve a bit between now and then and Wenger will have his excuses ready, "there's noone available", "we have x and y and z is coming back from injury and will be like a new signing", "I have a big squad", "it's not fair on the kids" etc etc.

As for having players we want to sign on our list now, we don't have them when we reach the end of a transfer window so we won't have them when we get to January it's been shown that we don't plan at all.

[fakeyank]

- Wenger and the Players
- Wenger and the Board
- The players, Wenger and the board.

Yes, the players are supposed to be motivated and they are.. but when the chips are down, you need a manager or experienced players to step up. Who is the reason we dont have experienced players on the squad? Arsene Wenger..

You are telling me the board wouldve said no to AW bringing in Scott Parker, PV4 (when he was available) or a defensive coach. If you think yes, that is absolute bollocks!

[Japan Shaking All Over]

you fucking rock dude

The board wont sack Wenger as long as we are making money simple as that, the reason being is that they are money men not football men. And the more that get replaced by these Kroenke flunkees the worse it will get.

Balance sheet>team sheet

Agree with that and what Icing said but. . .

My feeling is that the board with Wengers help could be shooting itself in the foot by going for the quick steal.

As I have mentioned, the mefia in Japan is starting to lose intetest in Arsenal, we dont occupy any prime pages as we did a couple of years ago, it may seem a small thing but it is part of the snowball tottering at thee edge of the mountain.
Lack of interest over here will hurt, especially when we have no marketable player in the mold of Cesc.

A failure to qualify for the CL speaks for itself in turns of our balance sheet.

Losing games to 8:2 to UTD
Going on losing streaks, or at least not winning games regularly
having no iconic status players. . . .will hurt us at home as well as abroad.

New generations of supporters will be slow, or low in number coming through the turnstiles. . .low shirts sales etc. . . .the new generation of fans will be the onfortunate spawn of GW

All this seems to be missed by the board/Wenger. . . .Gazidis does say we will be able to compete but we all know that is BS

I forsee without change, it will hit them hard and whete it hurts the most their pocket but by then we could be in an even worse position

Sounds like an episode from Dallas, just waiting for Bobby to step out the shower and it to be just a bad dream

[fakeyank]

FY, I don't know what kind of organisation you work for, buy the buck stops with the Board. Everywhere. If they have an incompetent Manager and they do nothing about it, the blame lies with them.

The buck stops where ultimate accountability lies. There isn't a Club or organisation in the world where ultimate accountability lies at the position Wenger occupies in the Club hierarchy.

How you repeatedly fail to understand this most elementary concept is baffling.

I work for State farm.

In this place or any other client I have worked with, there are different departments. For example, if the IT department fails, the CEO of the company does not get fired, it is the manager of the IT dept!

Take Arsenal FC, the board is responsible for keeping the club in the green and they are doing a darn good job about it. They are also there to provide support to AW in every way and there has been no credible evidence of that being otherwise.. however AW is responsible for the football department and we are lacking in that. Who gets fired? Yup, Arsene it is..

Tell me in which football team the buck stops with the board? Unless the board is raping the club (like Newcastle or Man U), we should leave the board to do their job.

That leads me to seriously question what sort of work culture you have in UK! For every failure, you point the finger at the Board/CEO.. nice! Managers and workers are not liable for anything... UK has got to be the dream country for middle class slackers!

[Power n Glory]

I work for State farm.

In this place or any other client I have worked with, there are different departments. For example, if the IT department fails, the CEO of the company does not get fired, it is the manager of the IT dept!

Take Arsenal FC, the board is responsible for keeping the club in the green and they are doing a darn good job about it. They are also there to provide support to AW in every way and there has been no credible evidence of that being otherwise.. however AW is responsible for the football department and we are lacking in that. Who gets fired? Yup, Arsene it is..

Tell me in which football team the buck stops with the board? Unless the board is raping the club (like Newcastle or Man U), we should leave the board to do their job.

That leads me to seriously question what sort of work culture you have in UK! For every failure, you point the finger at the Board/CEO.. nice! Managers and workers are not liable for anything... UK has got to be the dream country for middle class slackers!

:gp:

It's the same in the UK.

It’s funny because you’ve got people saying we’re punching above our weight and we’re having to deal with limited resources, 4th is good for us, etc….if that’s how they see it, then why talk of the Board being at fault for not firing Wenger?

For the first time in a long time, it looks like we’ll finish outside of the top four and if that happens, they’d be justified in firing him. But I’ve heard a lot of talk that sort of backs up why the Board haven’t fired or warned him, yet these same guys are critical of the Board, more so than Wenger.

[Letters]

No-one's said we're punching above our weight have they? They've said we can't compete with the sides who finished above us, we should be able to compete with anyone below us (I mean who finished below us last year) and till know we have.
We're historically a big club but then so are Spurs, so are Liverpool, so are Everton, and Newcastle actually if you look at ground size and history. Being a big club doesn't guarantee you a top 4 finish, there are a few other 'big clubs' all of whom have failed to consistently do so yet some people on here act like any idiot could keep us top 4. From the experience of other clubs attempts to do so - some of whom have spent big in the transfer market - that's clearly not so.

[Power n Glory]

No-one's said we're punching above our weight have they? They've said we can't compete with the sides who finished above us, we should be able to compete with anyone below us (I mean who finished below us last year) and till know we have.
We're historically a big club but then so are Spurs, so are Liverpool, so are Everton, and Newcastle actually if you look at ground size and history. Being a big club doesn't guarantee you a top 4 finish, there are a few other 'big clubs' all of whom have failed to consistently do so yet some people on here act like any idiot could keep us top 4. From the experience of other clubs attempts to do so - some of whom have spent big in the transfer market - that's clearly not so.

Don't lie.

You may not have used the exact words but that's what you've been implying. GB said we were punching above our weight. You've talked as if Wenger's pulled off a miracle by keeping us in the top four in the era of billionaire owners.

[Letters]

You may not have used the exact words but that's what you've been implying.

No, it isn't.

And if you're going to call me a liar then that's the end of this debate.

[Power n Glory]

No, it isn't.

And if you're going to call me a liar then that's the end of this debate.

I must be getting my wires crossed.

How many times did you and others mention top 4 as some sort of achievement over the past few pages while also pointing out how much other teams spend, our 'shoestring' budget, losing our invincible players and having to cope with a move to a new stadium? Is that just saying we've achieved inspite of the odds or 'punched above our weight'? Or am I using the wrong phrase here?

[Xhaka Can’t]

I work for State farm.

In this place or any other client I have worked with, there are different departments. For example, if the IT department fails, the CEO of the company does not get fired, it is the manager of the IT dept!

Take Arsenal FC, the board is responsible for keeping the club in the green and they are doing a darn good job about it. They are also there to provide support to AW in every way and there has been no credible evidence of that being otherwise.. however AW is responsible for the football department and we are lacking in that. Who gets fired? Yup, Arsene it is..

Tell me in which football team the buck stops with the board? Unless the board is raping the club (like Newcastle or Man U), we should leave the board to do their job.

That leads me to seriously question what sort of work culture you have in UK! For every failure, you point the finger at the Board/CEO.. nice! Managers and workers are not liable for anything... UK has got to be the dream country for middle class slackers!

Please tell me you are not this stupid.

[Master Splinter]

:haha:

[Xhaka Can’t]

:gp:

It's the same in the UK.

It’s funny because you’ve got people saying we’re punching above our weight and we’re having to deal with limited resources, 4th is good for us, etc….if that’s how they see it, then why talk of the Board being at fault for not firing Wenger?

For the first time in a long time, it looks like we’ll finish outside of the top four and if that happens, they’d be justified in firing him. But I’ve heard a lot of talk that sort of backs up why the Board haven’t fired or warned him, yet these same guys are critical of the Board, more so than Wenger.

It is not a good post, and neither is yours.

Ultimate accountability rests with the Board. That they have presided over this mess is down to them. A change of Manager has been required for some time and it is down to them that this has not occurred.

And as for being 4th or better for 15 years, that is punching above our weight, but it put us in position to take steps that were within our resources to deliver at least a couple of titles, yet the steps taken have moved us decisively in the other direction. So much so, we are unlikely to challenge for a title for the forseeable future. Two prime reasons for such a prognosis, is that it is now prohibitively expensive to aquire the resources we need and, more damning - we are now unable to attract the resouces we need because of how we are perceived as a 'selling' Club that lacks footballing ambition.

This didn't just happen - most of us saw this coming for a long long time. Yet the Board not only presided over this strategy, they embraced it.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger is responsible for creating a team that often displays a lack of even the most fundamental basics in football, and allowing the rot to take hold of the squad. However he's been allowed to do this by the people above him, he would have gone by now at any other club of a similar stature, but because the board are only interested in the money he makes them, via the selling of our best assets, he's been given their full backing.

4th place has been the clubs saving grace for years now, the fans have said for a while that it's probably not wise to take it for granted anymore, because it's pretty clear the landscape was changing around us. However it looks like the club was oblivious to this and continued their flawed policy because it made them a quick buck. I believe Gazidis when he said the club can cope without the CL money, because it means we'll probably sell someone to recoup that anyway.

[Letters]

How many times did you and others mention top 4 as some sort of achievement over the past few pages while also pointing out how much other teams spend, our 'shoestring' budget, losing our invincible players and having to cope with a move to a new stadium? Is that just saying we've achieved inspite of the odds or 'punched above our weight'? Or am I using the wrong phrase here?

Top 4 IS an achievement. We are one of the clubs who have the resources to have a chance of a top 4 finish so in that sense we're not punching above our weight. But we have no divine right to be and stay there and other clubs who also have a lot of resources have spent far more than us in the transfer market to try and depose us and they've thus far failed to.

Winning the title would have been punching above our weight in the era of billionaire owners IMO - and a couple of times we've not been too far away from doing that, the frustrating thing about 'project youth' is it's a case of 'so near yet so far'.

Wenger HAS done well to build a good young side which has remained relatively competitive and stayed top 4. But he's done badly by not landing a few trophies despite being close to the title a couple of times and being in a few Cup finals since we last won something.

So no, I don't think Wenger has 'worked miracles' to keep us top 4 but we have no automatic right to be there and I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to keep a club there without a billionaire backer and especially during one of the most complex stadium moves any club has undertaken. A few clubs have spent big to try to achieve it and they've failed. It is an achievement which some on here belittle unfairly IMO.

Again: Middle ground.

[Power n Glory]

@GB ....You say we've been punching above our weight yet you say Wenger should have been fired a while ago. That doesn't make sense.

If you see it like that, then maybe the Board see it that way as well and think Wenger is doing an excellent job considering the circumstances and rather than give in and go the sugar daddy route, we've brought in people that can try to generate revenue with more sporting sponsorship deals and worldwide appeal. That's probably what Stan and Gazidis bring to the table. They probably think Wenger is 'punching above his weight' as well, which is why he hasn't been fired. This is the first time we've looked in real trouble to be fair.

I finding it hard to agree with you. Why should they have fired him he's overachieved? I don't hold that view, but if you do, how can they justify sacking him when he's delivered 4th everytime considering our resources?


I'm not looking at the financial state of the club when I say Wenger should be sacked. It's purely based on football. Chelsea and Man U may spend more than us, but we haven't lost titled because we've had to play them week in week out. It's the smaller teams we lose to and it's usually in some embarrassing manner which should have been ironed out on the training field. But, I don't think the Board look at it like that because they're not fans or know a great deal about football. How many Boards do?

Yes, the Board are accountable, but right now, they're trying to get through this tough and uncertain moment. They're not rocking the boat or busting Wenger's balls about trophies. If West Brom are in a relegation scrap but make it to the Carling Cup final, which one takes priority for the Board? They won't fire the manager for losing a final, that's for sure.

[Power n Glory]

Top 4 IS an achievement. We are one of the clubs who have the resources to have a chance of a top 4 finish so in that sense we're not punching above our weight. But we have no divine right to be and stay there and other clubs who also have a lot of resources have spent far more than us in the transfer market to try and depose us and they've thus far failed to.

Winning the title would have been punching above our weight in the era of billionaire owners IMO - and a couple of times we've not been too far away from doing that, the frustrating thing about 'project youth' is it's a case of 'so near yet so far'.

Wenger HAS done well to build a good young side which has remained relatively competitive and stayed top 4. But he's done badly by not landing a few trophies despite being close to the title a couple of times and being in a few Cup finals since we last won something.

So no, I don't think Wenger has 'worked miracles' to keep us top 4 but we have no automatic right to be there and I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to keep a club there without a billionaire backer and especially during one of the most complex stadium moves any club has undertaken. A few clubs have spent big to try to achieve it and they've failed. It is an achievement which some on here belittle unfairly IMO.

Again: Middle ground.

I have no interest in talking to you about this after just conceding the point about 'punching above our weight'. You tried to move the goal posts and threw the toys out the pram when I told you to stop lying. No time for that.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You say we've been punching above our weight yet you say Wenger should have been fired a while ago. That doesn't make sense.

If you see it like that, then maybe the Board see it that way as well and think Wenger is doing an excellent job considering the circumstances and rather than give in and go the sugar daddy route, we've brought in people that can try to generate revenue with more sporting sponsorship deals and worldwide appeal. That's probably what Stan and Gazidis bring to the table. They probably think Wenger is 'punching above his weight' as well, which is why he hasn't been fired. This is the first time we've looked in real trouble to be fair.

I finding it hard to agree with you. Why should they have fired him he's overachieved? I don't hold that view, but if you do, how can they justify sacking him when he's delivered 4th everytime considering our resources?


I'm not looking at the financial state of the club when I say Wenger should be sacked. It's purely based on football. Chelsea and Man U may spend more than us, but we haven't lost titled because we've had to play them week in week out. It's the smaller teams we lose to and it's usually in some embarrassing manner which should have been ironed out on the training field. But, I don't think the Board look at it like that because they're not fans or know a great deal about football. How many Boards do?

Yes, the Board are accountable, but right now, they're trying to get through this tough and uncertain moment. They're not rocking the boat or busting Wenger's balls about trophies. If West Brom are in a relegation scrap but make it to the Carling Cup final, which one takes priority for the Board? They won't fire the manager for losing a final, that's for sure.

We have been punching above our wieght by virtue of how we have finished in the League over the past 15 years. It is overachievement in the sense that if you look at the 15 year period, few teams have ever finished so consistently high in the league over such a protracted period. A period that is now likely at an end. We have failed to exploit the benefits that provided us. Wenger and ultimately, the Board are to blame for this.

Honestly, I am shocked that the strategy the Club undertook yeilded such high finishes over the past couple of years, such is the way the resources the team had were allowed to be stripped away. They have now been stripped away so much so, I'm pretty sure we have passed the tipping point. We need to invest so much in players, I doubt the Board have the stomch to do it, and this is compounded by how difficult it will be for us to attract the players we need because we are now perceived as a Club with no footballing ambition.

[Power n Glory]

We have been punching above our wieght by virtue of how we have finished in the League over the past 15 years. It is overachievement in the sense that if you look at the 15 year period, few teams have ever finished so consistently high in the league over such a protracted period. A period that is now likely at an end. We have failed to exploit the benefits that provided us. Wenger and ultimately, the Board are to blame for this.

Honestly, I am shocked that the strategy the Club undertook yeilded such high finishes over the past couple of years, such is the way the resources the team had were allowed to be stripped away. They have now been stripped away so much so, I'm pretty sure we have passed the tipping point. We need to invest so much in players, I doubt the Board have the stomch to do it, and this is compounded by how difficult it will be for us to attract the players we need because we are now perceived as a Club with no footballing ambition.

Again, I don't blame the Board that much. I've heard it said on here countless times, people were calling for Cesc to be sold and for Ramsey and Jack to takeover. I've always maintained that it would be foolish to do such a thing, but go back to the Man U win last season and you'll see a few getting over excited.

It was the same when we sold Ade, Hleb, Henry, Vieira, Cole, Anelka...reason being, Wenger has a record of letting players go and replacing them with younger cheaper talent. He's built his rep on that and I can't imagine him walking into the Board room and telling them we'll go under without player A, B or C. Only with Vieira, Henry and Cesc have we seem him pull his cards to keep them for an extra season and once he saw younger players coming through he's tell the Board they can go. You heard what Paddy said when we wanted to sell him. Wenger knew we had Cesc coming through. He had a new vision. The Board backed him again because he's done it in the last and pulled it off.

I don't think the Board forced this youth strategy on Wenger. How could they if it was beyond his capabilities as a manager and if he fessed up about losing his mojo when it cones to developing talent, they'd address the issue and support him. But Wenger still thinks he has it in him to develop players. Can they really question him on that? It's taken ages for the fans to see it and we watch the games.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I don't care what others said in respect of who should/n't go. I can only give my opinion as I see it. The steady loss of our best and most experienced players without making a commensurate investment was only going to lead in one direction. For a long time, we have not been perceived as an ambitious team. We were however perceived as a team to go to develop and move on to bigger things. We have shed ourselves of so much experience, we arent even seen as that anymore. This development did not sneak up on us, it could be seen happening for some time. The only thing I find surprising is the exponential speed in our rate of decline.

[Power n Glory]

I don't care what others said in respect of who should/n't go. I can only give my opinion as I see it. The steady loss of our best and most experienced players without making a commensurate investment was only going to lead in one direction. For a long time, we have not been perceived as an ambitious team. We were however perceived as a team to go to develop and move on to bigger things. We have shed ourselves of so much experience, we arent even seen as that anymore. This development did not sneak up on us, it could be seen happening for some time. The only thing I find surprising is the exponential speed in our rate of decline.

I agree with you on that one. But like some of the fans that thought Wenger could turn water into wine, I think we have Board memebers that attend the same church.

[Syn]

I tell you the thing I don't get. Fine - Wenger can't perform miracles and all that. But the one thing we're sure as hell supposed to be doing is have technical ability and pass well. Forget about the fact that we ignore the defence and everything else, we could always build pretty patterns, open teams up by passing quickly and controlling instantly, and then proceed to waste a fuckload of chances...what the hell happened to that?

I don't know what our strengths are at the moment. We're not 'shit' and we might even finish for a European place. Every team (even mid-table and below) has a strength...Stoke's is rugby, Liverpool's is being all northern and having miners like Kuyt who'll chase a lost cause. What do we do right now? What's the gameplan?

[Marc Overmars]

I tell you the thing I don't get. Fine - Wenger can't perform miracles and all that. But the one thing we're sure as hell supposed to be doing is have technical ability and pass well. Forget about the fact that we ignore the defence and everything else, we could always build pretty patterns, open teams up by passing quickly and controlling instantly, and then proceed to waste a fuckload of chances...what the hell happened to that?

I don't know what our strengths are at the moment. We're not 'shit' and we might even finish for a European place. Every team (even mid-table and below) has a strength...Stoke's is rugby, Liverpool's is being all northern and having miners like Kuyt who'll chase a lost cause. What do we do right now? What's the gameplan?

Good post. There is no game plan, it seems like they're just told to go out and play this way, as if it's a training game or something. There's no match savvy whatsoever. We all talked about it after the United game, shit teams won't get anywhere near as battered as we did there, they'll at least have a strategy to limit the damage.

It's crazy really how it's got to this point. The team is unrecognisable. I'm never sure where the next win is coming from these days.

This is the area of criticism that Wenger is 100% accountable for.

[Marc Overmars]

http://le-grove.co.uk/2011/10/11/stan-borrowed-all-money-to-purchase-us-gulp-united-wage-bill-two-100k-players-a-week-more-than-us/

Good read on Le Grove today about shit behind the scenes.

[Joker]

Post 2006 Wenger is actually a really poor manager, who has made so many mistakes that at any other club he would have been fired. However, post 2006 Wenger has also placed much greater importance on our so called "self sustaining" model and seems to think that finishing in the top 4 is success, given that the revenues we gain from a place in the UCL contributes to the profitability of the club and ensures that share prices remain high. However, Wenger as a football manager has been seriously found wanting, and the more he's been questioned by the fans, the more he's been behaving like a petulant teenager, criticising shareholders who bemoan our poor end-of-season collapses over the last few seasons and constantly trying to blame external forces (like City's "financial doping", injuries etc) for our failings in the last five years, rather than looking closer to home.

The board are completely complicit as well, because they're only motivated by financial considerations, and so Wenger is the perfect manager to have for them.

[fakeyank]

Please tell me you are not this stupid.

Yes, I am very stupid to think the head of a department needs to be fired rather than the whole board because only that department failed.

Since no intelligent point was made to my original post, I'll take excerpts from the post you made to PnG and reply


Ultimate accountability rests with the Board. That they have presided over this mess is down to them. A change of Manager has been required for some time and it is down to them that this has not occurred.

How does the board fire a man who gave the club 10 glorious years? Same man who literally designed the Emirates stadium and brought us a new training ground and youth policy that till a few years back was very productive.. The board gave Arsene time just like many fans did... bar a intelligent few (like Zimm and me :cool:) who were calling for his head a couple of years back. The board IMO gave Arsene everything there was to become successful, they have openly backed him with transfer funds and unlimited support yet Arsene (a very intelligent man until a few years ago) just fucks with their trust and the fans support.
Again, all you BH's will come back with the same old BS about transfer and how money is tight.. FFS, that money will not sort out our defense or the use of players out of position. Transfer funds will not teach the strikers to attack the box or the players to grow a winning mentality. That comes down from the manager.

I do agree though that the board is making one criminal mistake now... and that is to let AW carry on. He should be fired right away. It doesnt matter that its the middle of the season or that he will be replaced by a cow, anything is better than AW atm.

[Syn]

I do agree though that the board is making one criminal mistake now... and that is to let AW carry on. He should be fired right away. It doesnt matter that its the middle of the season or that he will be replaced by a cow, anything is better than AW atm.

Finally! At least we got there in the end. :lol:

[Joker]

The board won't fire Wenger as long as he keeps making money for the board. If we drop out of the top 4 this season, then potentially the top 10 the year after, and lose our best players in the next summer, then there may be financial repercussions to this (lose of sponsorship deals, less demand for tickets, etc) and it is then that the board will think about Wenger's position.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Yes, I am very stupid to think the head of a department needs to be fired rather than the whole board because only that department failed.

Since no intelligent point was made to my original post, I'll take excerpts from the post you made to PnG and reply



How does the board fire a man who gave the club 10 glorious years? Same man who literally designed the Emirates stadium and brought us a new training ground and youth policy that till a few years back was very productive.. The board gave Arsene time just like many fans did... bar a intelligent few (like Zimm and me :cool:) who were calling for his head a couple of years back. The board IMO gave Arsene everything there was to become successful, they have openly backed him with transfer funds and unlimited support yet Arsene (a very intelligent man until a few years ago) just fucks with their trust and the fans support.
Again, all you BH's will come back with the same old BS about transfer and how money is tight.. FFS, that money will not sort out our defense or the use of players out of position. Transfer funds will not teach the strikers to attack the box or the players to grow a winning mentality. That comes down from the manager.

I do agree though that the board is making one criminal mistake now... and that is to let AW carry on. He should be fired right away. It doesnt matter that its the middle of the season or that he will be replaced by a cow, anything is better than AW atm.

Do the voices in your head sound like me?

It's the politest explanation I can think of for that non-sensical rant.

[fakeyank]

Do the voices in your head sound like me?

It's the politest explanation I can think of for that non-sensical rant.

:unsure:

Umm ok.. :blink:

[Xhaka Can’t]

:unsure:

Umm ok.. :blink:
Well, when replying to me, try and stick to what I stated rather than a general rant in response to shit you think you heard elsewhere.

[fakeyank]

Well, when replying to me, try and stick to what I stated rather than a general rant in response to shit you think you heard elsewhere.

And that would be that the board is accountable for the footballing failure at AFC?

[Letters]

And that would be that the board is accountable for the footballing failure at AFC?

Who employs Wenger? If he's not doing his job (I'd argue up till the end of last season he was, as the board defined his objectives which IMO was more about CL qualification than trophies) and the board have sat there and continued to employ him then yes, they are accountable for that.

[Özim]

If the board are only interested in money then they might deem that he is doing a good job and thus won't sack him, they may also look at his years of service...this is wrong of course but being moneygrabbers that's the way they see it.

As a football manager however, if you have any pride in the job you're doing surely the point is to produce a winning team that delivers trophies etc...it seems to me that to Wenger that's not the most important thing anymore and thus he's happy to pick up his 6 million safe in the knowledge that as he has said before "the club is making a profit".

It's profit over football, whilst you can accept that from a bunch of moneygrabbing businessman you can't from a football manager who is suppose to live and breathe football. It's alarming how he's shifted the focus from what's happening on the field to what is happening off it in financial terms, I don't know any other manager that does this.

Personally I think that's unacceptable, as is his morally superior stance that leads us to achieving nothing year on year.

[Power n Glory]

And I can’t understand how people can say Wenger has overachieved or done a good job of keeping us in the CL yet skip ahead and blame the Board for not firing him. It’s a bit if a contradiction.

[Coney]

Back on topic...

No.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And that would be that the board is accountable for the footballing failure at AFC?

Not exactly my position, but a damn sight closer than your previous rant.

[Özim]

Are the glory days over, yes well and truly under AW...under a new manager allowed to build a team who knows though!

[Letters]

Are the glory days over, yes well and truly under AW...under a new manager allowed to build a team who knows though!

tbh while City and Chelsea can throw silly money around I can't see Arsenal being dominant again whoever is manager.

[fakeyank]

Who employs Wenger? If he's not doing his job (I'd argue up till the end of last season he was, as the board defined his objectives which IMO was more about CL qualification than trophies) and the board have sat there and continued to employ him then yes, they are accountable for that.

I am quoting Zimm here

It's profit over football, whilst you can accept that from a bunch of moneygrabbing businessman you can't from a football manager who is suppose to live and breathe football. It's alarming how he's shifted the focus from what's happening on the field to what is happening off it in financial terms, I don't know any other manager that does this.

[fakeyank]

Not exactly my position, but a damn sight closer than your previous rant.

My rant is against the manager and I blame the manager for our failures and do not understand how the blame falls on the board. I sometimes dont get which side of the fence some of you (You, Letters, CTG) are... are you saying Wenger should carry on because the board is to blame or are you guys saying that the board is to blame... period?!

My grasp of English is not really good, so I really cant figure it out.