Match Reaction - Arsenal vs Sunderland

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, their owners are ruining their club and their protesting it. I think AW is ruining our club and I am protesting it.

The board is ruining our club. You won't protest that because the owner is American. Instead you pretend Wenger is capable of dragging us down to where we are now single-handedly. Considering the facts and the realities of the corporate world, your argument doesn't make any sense at all. Fair enough, you want to get rid of Wenger but that cannot happen before the summer at the earliest and even then it won't happen because Wenger's idealism is ideal for the board members and their self evident agenda to extract as much as they can from the club for a minimal investment. This is not speculation or stuff going on behind the scenes we can't know about. This is a fact, the board has put nothing in and taken virtually everything out. Where has Kroenke put his money? Into the PHW gang's pockets and not a penny of it into the football club. This is the bottom line from which to build a conceivable argument. The alternative is to suggest Kroenke, a hard-nosed businessman, is rolling the dice and leaving it to Wenger to build his investment for him. That's a ludicrous proposition, to say the least.

Wenger out makes no difference, this is what you need to come to terms with.

[Niall_Quinn]

Probably wont! At least I will walk the talk, not just talk the talk!

Like a great man said "Journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"

Yes, and then requires 52 billion more. The first step is easy, anyone can do it. Few actually make the journey though. Added to that, if you set out in the wrong direction it doesn't matter how many steps you take because every one carries you further from journey's end. The reality is Wenger has tried to work with what he has as the board has sold the quality from under him. Wenger's real fault lies in his inability to compensate for this erosion. He's kept us top four for years but eventually things had to break as more and more of the quality was stripped away to be replaced by Chamakh. I wonder if any manager could have done as well, let alone better? Regardless, Wenger has ultimately failed and he should be held accountable for that. But to hold him out as the one and only guilty party is not a credible position. Wenger faltered around the 26 billion step mark, whilst heading in the right direction. Carrying PHW and his cronies on his back certainly can't have helped. So now who should come in to carry these blood suckers the remainder of the way? Or do you think they will suddenly about face and start walking back?

[Master Splinter]

After taking in every post in this thread, my match reaction is this:

We will win BPL.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I have an Arsenal tattoo too and I have it on my back with the 'e' on my spine and not a blob of fat like this man.. so I am a bigger fan than him! :good:

My post was a sorry attempt at humour. . . .the fact that Tomny is rather large in a bodily sense and I have seen a picture of you and you are somewhat smaller than him. . . .I thought it may have equated that he is the bigger Arsenal fan!
It seems you are in a bit of a zone so I will tread more carefully in the future. . .according to you this wasnt a dick measuring contest so no comment on your attempt to making it one with your chosen body decoration.

Us blinkered fans of mere mortal qualities throw cannon shaped rose petals at your feet

[fakeyank]

My post was a sorry attempt at humour. . . .the fact that Tomny is rather large in a bodily sense and I have seen a picture of you and you are somewhat smaller than him. . . .I thought it may have equated that he is the bigger Arsenal fan!
It seems you are in a bit of a zone so I will tread more carefully in the future. . .according to you this wasnt a dick measuring contest so no comment on your attempt to making it one with your chosen body decoration.

Us blinkered fans of mere mortal qualities throw cannon shaped rose petals at your feet

I do have a tattoo but my post was a joke. I feel u r more worked up than me.. pity really!

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I do have a tattoo but my post was a joke. I feel u r more worked up than me.. pity really!

Not entirely sure what there has to be a pity about. . . .but keep up the good work mate, we're all be on your wavelength soon enough.
(Note: not looking for a barney!)

[Joker]

I'll say it again, greed has been a part of football for a long time now, long before Abramovich and the Sheikh's takeover. There's this article in the Guardian that makes a similar lament against the new owners:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/18/premier-league-rampant-capitalism

The problem is, the imperatives of Capitalism have been driving football in this country especially since the formation of the Premier League. Yet ideological cowards like the writers for the Guardian seem to have woken up now, because there's been an influx of foreign owners so they get to beat the jingoistic drum a bit for the benefit of their readers. The fact is football isn't being killed by foreign owners exclusively; there are many domestic owners who have contributed just as much to the demise of football, including people like PHW who treat the supporters like shit and are only interesting in a return on their measly investment.

[Letters]

I can feel myself getting dumber every time I read stuff from certain posters. Quite tedious. The one interesting thing I read was that Chelsea and, now, Man City will have bought success and it becomes uninteresting when it pretty much always boils down to which billionnaire owner has the deepest pockets. I agree with that. There is the issue of where you draw the line....some clubs will always have an inherent advantage. Man Utd have had a huge advantage because of their previous successes and have spent a fuckload of money in the last 10 years. That has helped them stay at the top. We would agree that they have earned that right and it's different from being handed it like what has happened to Chelsea and Man City. But at what point does it become 'enough' of a reward and, in particular, uncompetitive for football in general? It's a virtuous cycle and it's clear that not everyone has an equal chance. There are other advantages...we have a geographical advantage of being near central London. It's never going to be a level playing field.


Everyone will have their own line, but I'd guess that for 95% (including nearly all non top-league fans), a team being allowed to play real-life FM with the unlimited money cheat ala Man City is not even close to it. As Letters said - most of the problems of football today is because of the obscene money involved. There has to be more regulation. Salary caps, transfer caps. Other than money there are still other problems - there has to be retrospective punishment. Permitted use of video technology. A much more transparent rating system for referees - punishment for poor performing refs and better rewards for good refereeing performances. A lot of shit needs to be sorted out. I do believe that strikes are wrong at a time when negotiations are still going on. Vote Syn for UEFA Presidency.

:gp: I'd vote for you.

[server too busy!]

Tell me one way how being optimistic or not moaning is going to change the direction of the team? Do I get behind my team? 100% everytime they are on the field... I have said this many times, I'd rather the manager and players prove me wrong and make me eat humble pie than being proved right! However ground realities say otherwise.. we have no direction and unless we got that beating at OT, we wouldnt have changed a thing at our club.

No, I dont pray for us to lose but falling down is a necessary step in getting up, especially when our manager has lost all his brain cells! On top of that, he has the support of the board... not for long, I hope. Getting out of the champions league or having a mauling like the one at OT are necessary evils.. you can agree or you can disagree with my viewpoint but the bottomline is this: What was the main reason for one of the biggest overturn in our transfer policy in the last 6 years? I know you know the answer...

As for protesting when I am off the internet, I will be doing that when I am in London this feb, I plan on taking a banner saying "Wenger OUT" with me to the ground and if I dont have a ticket, I'll stand outside Emirates with it! And I am not even the biggest fan for that or because I spend a lot of money to watch Arsenal.. I am the biggest fan because I love this team more than many of you so called 'locals' would.. I have supported this club since I was 7 having never lived in England and I have and will stick by this team through thick n thin.. if I had to support Manchester Utd for being a successful club, I'd have done that before Wenger came in or for that matter, post 2005.

I think we just have a completely different perspective on how a team benefits from supporters. In my opinion I can think the team will only benefit from having the fans behind them 100%, you can always tell the nervousness in the crowd spreads to the players and we sometimes struggle at home. I remember last year against Barcelona we were all behind the team till the very end and they managed to get the result. Could that have something to do with us having a better away record last year then home (I think). All the doom and gloom does nothing to benefit the team and if anything it spreads to them.

What you seem to be missing is that before Wenger this team was nothing, since he has come along he has brought us good football, leagues, cups and a new stadium. I agree the last few years mistakes have been made but he always kept us competitive even with the big stadium move and all the debts that that brought about. This has obviously hampered our ability to spend, but there are many other teams that would have sunk far lower than we have in those circumstances. I honestly don't know whats going on in the back ground because I think there are some issues, but collectively Wenger and the board are to blame. If you did get your wish and Wenger did leave, how can you be sure of an improvement? How can you even be sure there would be anymore money spent? I know change is sometimes necessary, but the only change I can see making a huge difference would be Usmanov coming in and throwing his money around like City. Do we want to go there?

[fakeyank]

Not entirely sure what there has to be a pity about. . . .but keep up the good work mate, we're all be on your wavelength soon enough.
(Note: not looking for a barney!)

Thanks for the encouragement bro.. thats what I have been waiting for!

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Thanks for the encouragement bro.. thats what I have been waiting for!

Looks like you're going to have to put in a few more shifts yet tho.........


.Wenger pledges future to Gunners
Arsene Wenger has committed his future to Arsenal by insisting he intends to see out the remaining three years of his contract.


http://www.skysports.com/story/0,,11670_7250411,00.html

[LDG]

Good three points.

[Cripps_orig]

Just realised I put my banker on a 2-1 Arsenal win so got maximum points for this. Arsenal :bow:

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Wenger pledges future to Gunners
Arsene Wenger has committed his future to Arsenal by insisting he intends to see out the remaining three years of his contract.


This is like a new signing.......super quality.......waiting period over

[Niall_Quinn]

GW's ahey were all Nuttier then a Marathon Bar

SNICKERS you cunt!

[Syn]

:gp: I'd vote for you.

You're only saying that because I'm your best man.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

SNICKERS you cunt!

It will always be a Marathon bar me.

[LDG]

It will always be a Marathon bar to be.

You fat bastard.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You fat bastard.

Yes he did play well against sunderland but thats enough about Arshavin

[IBK]

Of course they're taken seriously as they're a top club now and yes, history will show how many trophies they've won.
It'll also show that they won bugger all (more or less) before Abramovic came along. If you respect the 'achievements' of a club who so blatently bought success then fine, I don't. Yeah, they were a bit higher up than City when Abramovic came along but they'd not have had anywhere near the success they've had without him. City were in mid-table when they were taken over, it shows you can do it with any club if you pour enough money in for long enough.

If all you care about is end result and don't care how it was achieved then, again, fine, but I don't. Hence my ever increasing disinterest in a sport where money plays an ever increasing role. From the start of the season it was pretty clear who the top 3 would be this year. OK, we don't know in which order but still, it's not good for a sport to be so predictable.

With our resources we should be up there in the top 4, if we're not then that is a failing in the way the club is run. With the money we generate and the prices we're paying to go along we should be expecting more but I wouldn't want to be just another billionaire's plaything splashing silly money around on mercenaries.

So much is wrong with football these days and most of it comes down to money. Clubs buying success, players being unlikeable mercenaries from all 4 corners of the globe with no real connection to the club or the fans. If it wasn't for dad wanting to renew and going along pretty much being the backbone of our relationship there's no way I'd have renewed.

Like I said. Football :rose:

:gp: In fact, great post.

Last year I went on Blue Moon and asked (genuinely) whether it felt a bit hollow to be a fan of a club whose success had been achieved simply via a benefactor's cheque book rather than any real endeavour on the part of manager or players. I received a torrent of abuse from very chippy and defensive Mancs - most of which went along the lines 'you patronising bastard, you are just upset that your club's cosy monopoly with Manure has been broken by us and the Chavs - you weren't so sanctimonious when you were on top of the rich list...'

To a degree, that's true - we have traditionally been one of the favoured clubs because of our pedigree (although not really amongst the very richest of the EPL clubs, even in the early 00's). But the Citeh fans' argument ignores the real issue that we face with their club now - namely that this is more than simply being able to outspend other clubs - it is about completely re-drawing the boundaries of the game. With the obscene amounts that Citeh are able to spend, they can:

- Stockpile world class players in every position, making injuries and suspensions - things that have always been part and parcel of the game - absolutely meaningless.

- Spend the kind of money that dislodges players that would otherwise have been perfectly happy where they were - something that hasn't really happened before.

- De-stabilise their competitors as a matter of course. An unfair advantage if ever there was one.

- Distort the market so that even players that they don't want become beyond the reach of their competitors.

Citeh fans may think that that doesn't matter a jot as long as they get a Premiership title that has eluded them for 40 years, but as Letters says the rest of us feel otherwise, and untimately Citeh and the Chavs will be the poorer for a financial clogging up of football's arteries that their club is doing more than anyone else to accelerate.

I honestly care far less about the game than even 2 or 3 years ago. And its down to what's happening to the game rather than my own club's lack of success.

[fakeyank]

Looks like you're going to have to put in a few more shifts yet tho.........



http://www.skysports.com/story/0,,11670_7250411,00.html

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعون آرسنال

:rose:

[milla]

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعون آرسنال

:rose:

When is the burial? :coffee:

[Japan Shaking All Over]

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعون آرسنال

:rose:

لم نفقد الأمل, ومهما كان الدعم للجانب لك

[Letters]

I honestly care far less about the game than even 2 or 3 years ago. And its down to what's happening to the game rather than my own club's lack of success.

Aye. I guess if we're honest with ourselves we'd have to concede that our club's malaise is a factor but it's not the main one, not for me anyway.

There have always been haves and have nots in football of course and no regulations can entirely prevent that.
We have a bigger stadium and fan base than a lot of clubs, we're in London, we're a historically big club.
And money playing its part in football is not new, i believe even as far back as the 1930's Arsenal were known as the 'Bank of England' club for the thousands ( :lol: ) we used to spend.
BUT. Never in ths history of football has the gap between the haves and have nots been so large both financially and in terms of ability, the chances of a club moving between levels been so small (billionaire takeovers aside) and the amount of money being spent on transfer fees and salaries been so obscene.

Sky promised a "whole new ball game" when they launched the Premier League and boy did they deliver.
They neglected to mention it wouldn't actually be that much fun.

[Master Splinter]

They neglected to mention it wouldn't actually be that much fun.

Your face is not that much fun.

[Marc Overmars]

Harsh but fair.

[Power n Glory]

Not really sure what to make of some of the posts here.

NQ seems to be advocating a move for the Billionaire Boys Club approach while slating our current model, but Letter’s is totally against such a move and being some billionaire’s plaything.

So where does that leave Arsenal? How would we all feel if Stan suddenly freed up some cash for Wenger to spend or if Usmanov threw some money our way? Would that somehow tarnish our future achievements? If that’s the case, are we prepared to continue paying for Wenger’s wages and the useless players he backs?

[Letters]

:(

:getcoat:

[IBK]

Aye. I guess if we're honest with ourselves we'd have to concede that our club's malaise is a factor but it's not the main one, not for me anyway.

There have always been haves and have nots in football of course and no regulations can entirely prevent that.
We have a bigger stadium and fan base than a lot of clubs, we're in London, we're a historically big club.
And money playing its part in football is not new, i believe even as far back as the 1930's Arsenal were known as the 'Bank of England' club for the thousands ( :lol: ) we used to spend.
BUT. Never in ths history of football has the gap between the haves and have nots been so large both financially and in terms of ability, the chances of a club moving between levels been so small (billionaire takeovers aside) and the amount of money being spent on transfer fees and salaries been so obscene.

Sky promised a "whole new ball game" when they launched the Premier League and boy did they deliver.
They neglected to mention it wouldn't actually be that much fun.

No doubt our club's malaise is a factor - but for me its the 'malaise' in the sense of groundhog day; lack of character in our team individually and collectively and a style of football that I don't find particularly exciting rather than any lack of trophies. This is a real issue for me. being a football supporter is about having heroes to admire on the pitch, who share your passion for the club and we don't really have many of those.

And beyond being able to see the world's best talent on show, I wonder whether some of those issues would not exist even if we were owned by a billionaire. Do Citeh fans really think their players give a damn about their club? Does it matter to fans of a successful team that your players are only really playing for themselves and their bank balances. Not the manager; not the club and certainly not the fans? Like you, I think it would matter to me.

As for the EPL in general - it is almost devoid of any interest beyond our club where the 3 richest clubs join a procession to the top of the EPL. In relation to the latter - doubtless the same applied for other fans when we and Manure used to swap titles, but was the game generally as soulless and saturated as it is now?

[fakeyank]

لم نفقد الأمل, ومهما كان الدعم للجانب لك

I am guessing u did that my some translating software because the sentence doesnt make a lot of sense.

[Letters]

I am guessing u did that my some translating software because the sentence doesnt make a lot of sense.

Nor does your face.

[GP]

Nor does your face.

Sick burn

[Master Splinter]

Sick burn

Your face has a sick burn on it.

[GP]

Your face has a sick burn on it.

:(

[Niall_Quinn]

Not really sure what to make of some of the posts here.

NQ seems to be advocating a move for the Billionaire Boys Club approach while slating our current model, but Letter’s is totally against such a move and being some billionaire’s plaything.

So where does that leave Arsenal? How would we all feel if Stan suddenly freed up some cash for Wenger to spend or if Usmanov threw some money our way? Would that somehow tarnish our future achievements? If that’s the case, are we prepared to continue paying for Wenger’s wages and the useless players he backs?

Not using the transfer window as a profit vehicle would be a start and wouldn't require any billionaires to step up. My problem is with the board's unbelievable greed no matter what the cost to the club. I don't say anywhere I want a billionaire to start splashing cash. I've always said we needed some moderate investment in experience and quality. The same has been true for the past 5-6 years so if we looked at a very reasonable £20mill a year on average we're £100-120mill short of what I'd expect in terms of investment if we are serious about being anything more than a Europa League outfit. I want the money people out of the game, the players to get a lot less, the agents to be murdered and so on.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I am guessing u did that my some translating software because the sentence doesnt make a lot of sense.

Same software I use to translate most of your posts. . . .so go figure :wink:

[Niall_Quinn]

Same software I use to translate most of your posts. . . .so go figure :wink:

UncleSam Speak 2.0, brilliant software, strips every occurrence of the words "awesome", "dude" and "liberate" and replaces with, "quite good", "Sir" and "Fuck, they're at it again!"

Oh stop before you start - I'm only kidding! (Mostly)

[fakeyank]

Not using the transfer window as a profit vehicle would be a start and wouldn't require any billionaires to step up. My problem is with the board's unbelievable greed no matter what the cost to the club. I don't say anywhere I want a billionaire to start splashing cash. I've always said we needed some moderate investment in experience and quality. The same has been true for the past 5-6 years so if we looked at a very reasonable £20mill a year on average we're £100-120mill short of what I'd expect in terms of investment if we are serious about being anything more than a Europa League outfit. I want the money people out of the game, the players to get a lot less, the agents to be murdered and so on.

So your saying that the board who are all excellent (and greedy) business men will not invest 20 million into a team when that 20 million could potentially mean winning the PL title~ 20 million quid + more shirt and merchandise sale + more glory hunting fans in Asia, Middle East, USA + chances of striking a more lucrative deal with future sponsors. If that is the argument against the board and Stan then that is a very weak argument. We all agree that these people can only see $ signs and when they can invest that money and make 20 times the invested amount, it doesnt make sense why they wouldnt.

Arsene Wenger is 100% the reason for our club selling players (see Cesc Fabregas price lowering comment) on the cheap. He is the one in charge of buying players.. for eg: he bought OAC for ~15 million quid. Agreed the kid looks brilliant but where is he now? The board gave AW 15 million quid... what did he do? He bought a kid because he is obsessed with winning with kids or he is deluded.. I think its the later tbh. That 15 million quid could have bought us a good defensive coach and Samba. Also, I dont think the board mentioned anything about the 'waiting period'... AW spend 10 million on Arteta, 8 on Per.. this amount wouldve been available to him earlier but he waited for the waiting period to be over before making last minute purchases.

Pointing fingers at the board is frankly a very very weak argument with absolutely no basis. Yes, they are greedy people... much like the Utd board but they have a manager who works with them and does his job of winning football matches. The board is wrong for not sacking him but its also hard for a board to sack a person who literally built up the youth system, the dressing rooms, appointed Gazidis and literally runs every aspect of the football club. I will blame the board if AW is still here next season but from 2006-present, whatever footballing failures we have, there is only one man responsible- Arsene Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

So your saying that the board who are all excellent (and greedy) business men will not invest 20 million into a team when that 20 million could potentially mean winning the PL title~ 20 million quid + more shirt and merchandise sale + more glory hunting fans in Asia, Middle East, USA + chances of striking a more lucrative deal with future sponsors. If that is the argument against the board and Stan then that is a very weak argument. We all agree that these people can only see $ signs and when they can invest that money and make 20 times the invested amount, it doesnt make sense why they wouldnt.

Arsene Wenger is 100% the reason for our club selling players (see Cesc Fabregas price lowering comment) on the cheap. He is the one in charge of buying players.. for eg: he bought OAC for ~15 million quid. Agreed the kid looks brilliant but where is he now? The board gave AW 15 million quid... what did he do? He bought a kid because he is obsessed with winning with kids or he is deluded.. I think its the later tbh. That 15 million quid could have bought us a good defensive coach and Samba. Also, I dont think the board mentioned anything about the 'waiting period'... AW spend 10 million on Arteta, 8 on Per.. this amount wouldve been available to him earlier but he waited for the waiting period to be over before making last minute purchases.

Pointing fingers at the board is frankly a very very weak argument with absolutely no basis. Yes, they are greedy people... much like the Utd board but they have a manager who works with them and does his job of winning football matches. The board is wrong for not sacking him but its also hard for a board to sack a person who literally built up the youth system, the dressing rooms, appointed Gazidis and literally runs every aspect of the football club. I will blame the board if AW is still here next season but from 2006-present, whatever footballing failures we have, there is only one man responsible- Arsene Wenger.

:gp: I was thinking the same thing. It's a really weak case against the Board. He gets around £20m to spend each season but chooses not to spend it. Or if he does, he'll spend a huge bulk of it on kids. Walcott cost us £10m, Ox £13m, Ramsey £5m.

He definitely had at least £20m to spend in this window and choose to spend the bulk of it on Gervinho, Ox, Jenkinson and Campbell. If it wasn't for the injuries and the crushing defeat to Man U, that would have been the end to our business this summer. Look how Merts has just slotted in with our defence. He's been available and linked with our club for ages and we could have snapped him up earlier in the summer or last winter when we knew Vermaelen was out for the season last year but Wenger chose not to sign him. We had the money, it's obvious we had the money but all you have to do is look back on Wenger's comments about the defence and you'll see he felt he could rely on Kosienly, Squallaci and Djourou. Why would you buy another CB when you have players to cover the injured man? That's logical thinking from Wenger, but he misjudge these players ability to cope and that's how it's always been. In the past, he's got it right, such as the time we had Seaman out and Manninger took over and played great in goal. Campbell was out injured for a period and Senderos stepped in and helped us win the FA Cup in his debut season. Kolo Toure wasn't even a CB and he played he was a part of the Invincible team during his first full season as CB.

It's a real weak argument against the Board on that basis. Wenger has a rep for getting value for money. He doesn't spend all of his transfer budget and in most cases he ends up making money for the Board. That's his rep and what he's been doing from the days the start. He sidelined Ian Wright so £500k Anelka could take his place and then sold Anelka for £20+m and bought Henry for £10m. Look at the transfer history. It's always been about value for money when it comes to Wenger and he likes to take gambles on unknown players. But over the years he's taken things a little too far. He convinced the Board to build the training centre and develop the Academy, wouldn't it make sense to utilise that? We built it for this purpose and it's was Wenger's philosophy on how to build a club it was based on. So we wouldn't have to spend loads of money on outside players.

I'll criticise the Board for the bad sponsorship deals and the fact that someone is sitting there signing the checks for player wages and not questioning why it's that high when we've got zero players earning over 100k a week. Over the past few years, Wenger has had at least £20m to spend but he doesn't spend it. When we sold Ade and Toure, he didn't spend straight away and right now we've got money left over from transfers and we'll see what he does in January. Whether it's a budget raised from the money the club makes from tickets, sponsors...etc or player transfers, we can see Wenger won't spend it all. That has always been his way. You can't lay that blame on the Board and it's also worth considering the type of Board we want cause I hearing a lot of confused discussions. Do you really want a Board that can tell a manager what players to buy like Arbamovich does at Chelsea which almost always ends up derailing their season? IMO Wenger is the main problem. He's lost his touch.

[LDG]

Wages.

Installments.

AOC has not cost us anywhere near 15 million quid yet. It will do, but based on appearances, and other conditions. His wages will be piddly compared to an established star.

So, where does that point us??

AOC, say 5 mill, four year contract worth, say, 1.5mil a year. He will be worth his 15mil when he's established, and what will then (we hope) be an absolute fucking steal.

Samba + defensive coach....10mil fee, 3mil a year wages, plus defensive coach wages, is already 15mil.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. Wenger has certainly made some terrible decisions, but the board are the ones with the money. And they are the ones who own that cash. Not Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

So let's say we paid £5m up front. We paid £10m for Gervinho. That's £15m. It's close to the £20m a year NQ wants the board to spend a year and we've gone beyond that.

The Board are in control of the money but Wenger can tell them to sell Cesc on the cheap. He was also able to get him that long term contract.

Didn't Gazidis say he and Wenger were the only two in charge of the signings?

[Niall_Quinn]

Sorry chaps but you're talking as if the board is powerless in all this, in thrall of Wenger and somehow oblivious of our slide from prominence. I didn't say we should spend £20mill a year, I said we were at least £20mill a year behind on investment. You can add back in the profits the board members have banked and converted into large payouts when they jumped ship. How anyone can ignore what this board has done and try to pin the blame on Wenger is a mystery. It's so simple. Who has pocketed the money that didn't go into the team? Wenger? Sure, he got his wages but are we saying he gets more if he spends less?

1. The team has been systematically asset stripped.
2. The board members have benefited to the tune of millions of pounds.

Which part of this is difficult to understand? The bastards have put NOTHING in. Kicked NOTHING back. The new owner has put NOTHING in. He magnanimously allowed Wenger to spend what was already in the kitty, but only after a much greater amount was earned from further asset stripping.

Did Wenger force through the sales of Fabregas and Nasri? The evidence says absolutely not. He seemed determined to hang on to both players at the start of the transfer window. What happened to change his mind? We don't know, we just know he accepted the sales in the end. Was this because he didn't want to carry players who had already mentally left the club? And did this mentality arise and make the situation impossible once the likes of PHW came out and made it clear Fabregas was for sale? We speculate because we have no way of knowing what really went on.

But we do know Kroenke flew in and it's suggested by people who are closer to the club than us the demand was for Nasri to be sold because the potential loss next year was unacceptable. Maybe that was the right course of action, maybe it was wrong. That's not the point. The board always seems to at least sanction (if not drive through) these player sales in the end. Let's be kind and call it avaricious reluctance. Are they unaware that stripping quality from the team will have a negative effect? They have no place in football if they genuinely don't grasp such a simple cause and effect. They know what's happening for sure and they approve, or else they would use their authority to put a stop to it.

Why are we signing kids instead of the ready made quality we've needed to replace stars like Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Vieira? Because kids are cheaper. Because the board refuses to invest in the team. And we did not spend net £15 million this year. Gervinho's fee was a fraction of the amount brought in from the Fabregas and Nasri sales. And again, his wages will be a lot lower.

I understand why people are asking, why would the board do this? Don't they know asset stripping the team will deprive them of potential additional sponsorship and gate receipts? Why can the same question not be applied to Wenger? Is he unaware that a drop in quality will make his job harder? So who is guilty here? The manager who faces scorn and potentially the sack as the lack of quality bites into his ability to get results? Or the board members who have pocketed millions? Shouldn't we get real about this?

This is why I hate these fuckers so much. It's true - they do know their asset stripping will kill our opportunities to compete. Plainly they don't give a fuck, or else these concerns are very much secondary to their own personal interests. Beyond Kroenke, what is the incentive for any of the board members to even give a damn? They have their money, don't they? What do they lose if the club falters? Kroenke carries all the risk now but, as I've argued, how much risk is it in reality? Does he care what happens to the team or does he care more about property values, share values and a potential onwards sale for a healthy markup? Again, we don't know for sure. We can only make a guess based on his actions. So far his actions have very much pointed to a, "Fuck the team", attitude. We've had nothing from him. Is he biding his time, waiting for us to drop out of Europe before he makes his move to strengthen? That would seem nonsensical. Or doesn't he give a shit about that sort of stuff because he's busy working an entirely different agenda? Plainly he didn't buy in to promote the team on the field. So what did he buy in for? He's not saying. Silent Stan. Why?

Or has Wenger managed to persuade him to buy on the guarantee little money will be spent, the team will collapse and Kroenke will be left holding a lemon? Has Wenger "ordered" him to buy the club? It's all a bit ridiculous, isn't it? Poor Kroenke, poor PHW and the gang. Hapless victims of Wenger and all they have to show for it is either millions of pounds stashed in their bank accounts or a fuck-off huge property asset in the heart of London with a major fan base and prospects to enhance sponsorship arrangements around the globe and then flog the lot for a big profit. It must hurt them when they see the selfish fucking fans moan and whine on about getting value for their money, eh?

Mind you, they probably have a chuckle when so many of the fans come out and berate Wenger for making such a mess. They robbed the bank and managed to pin it on somebody else. Nicely done. The fans have been nicely done too.

[Syn]

Just thought I'd also add what Wenger said a few days ago:


"(Owner) Stan Kroenke's words are a beautiful sign of faith but I'm also a realist.
"When you lose 8-2 to Manchester United you can't say 'I'm the best in the world'.
"It's not that I feel in danger, it's simply I'd like people who love this club to be happy and you have the taste of failing in our mission when an avalanche like that falls on our head.
"Big disappointments are part of our job. The team is insecure every time we concede a goal."

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,,11670_7248605,00.html

About this 'Wenger vs. the board' theme that's going on, what are those Kroenke's 'words of faith' that Wenger's talking about?


In other news,


He said: "I have periods where I am tired, yes. It's true that the close season makes people think you're resting but it's during that that you work the most.

"I got in the habit of working all the time. I think I must have been lazy in a previous life and was punished to come back in a very tiring and stressing job.

"I'd like to go to Tahiti for a month but I can't. From time to time I would like to because I'm running out of time. Everyone gets older."
.......
He said: "I'm in a job where results count and they decide your future.

Who isn't? I don't doubt he's suffering because he clearly cares about the club, but nobody's forcing him to remain in his job...he gets paid 'handsomely' for doing what he's doing. Actions speak louder than words and all that...a visible change in approach or formation would at least show he's trying something different.

[Power n Glory]

You are ignoring some key points.

15 years ago when Wenger first arrived, he had the most successful Arsenal striker benched for some kid worth £500k. When we sold Vieira, he was replaced for some 16year old kid from Barca. This is Wenger's way and always has been. This isn't asset stripping. It's not like we're Valencia, Everton or Villa and selling players when a club comes in with a huge bid.

It's not as we're selling our players to the higest bidders each time a big club comes crawling. If so, we would have sold certain players ages ago where we would have received more money.

You're looking at this from a flipped perspective as if Arsene Wenger hasn't earned his reputation for finding stars on the cheap. If Wenger has shown in the past that he can replace our all time goal scorer for some unknown kid and still win the title, whose going to question him about the team? If he brought Kolo Toure for peanuts and turned him into a defender that's part of the Invincible team, do you really think they're going go start questioning who he buys and sells now when he has a reputation for for turning water into wine?

Heck, a few years ago, most of us were under the illusion Wenger fouls replace anyone with a younger player. Now that we're struggling questions are starting to be asked but instead you're pointing the finger at the board instead of Wenger. Isn't possible that he's just lost his touch? This isn't asset stripping. Why do you think the Academy was set up? This has been the plan from morning.

Wenger has been the mouthpiece for all this and he's the one that keeps dangling the carrot on front of the fans faces. He backs the self suffiecient model, he opposess financial 'doping', he makes out as if the ticket price increase will help us compete with bigs clubsike Chelsea. If you hate the Board, you have to direct some of that Wenger's way because he's right in there promoting this. Read his comments, look at his philosophy check his transfer dealings from the past. You know during the Invincible season we were written off as title contenders because Abramovich had just arrived and we had only bought a new keeper. During interviews and press conferences, Wenger stressed that something special was brewing in the team so he didn't feel the need to add more numbers for the sake of it. Doesn't that sound familiar?

[fakeyank]

Sorry chaps but you're talking as if the board is powerless in all this, in thrall of Wenger and somehow oblivious of our slide from prominence. I didn't say we should spend £20mill a year, I said we were at least £20mill a year behind on investment. You can add back in the profits the board members have banked and converted into large payouts when they jumped ship. How anyone can ignore what this board has done and try to pin the blame on Wenger is a mystery. It's so simple. Who has pocketed the money that didn't go into the team? Wenger? Sure, he got his wages but are we saying he gets more if he spends less?

1. The team has been systematically asset stripped.
2. The board members have benefited to the tune of millions of pounds.

Which part of this is difficult to understand? The bastards have put NOTHING in. Kicked NOTHING back. The new owner has put NOTHING in. He magnanimously allowed Wenger to spend what was already in the kitty, but only after a much greater amount was earned from further asset stripping.

Did Wenger force through the sales of Fabregas and Nasri? The evidence says absolutely not. He seemed determined to hang on to both players at the start of the transfer window. What happened to change his mind? We don't know, we just know he accepted the sales in the end. Was this because he didn't want to carry players who had already mentally left the club? And did this mentality arise and make the situation impossible once the likes of PHW came out and made it clear Fabregas was for sale? We speculate because we have no way of knowing what really went on.

But we do know Kroenke flew in and it's suggested by people who are closer to the club than us the demand was for Nasri to be sold because the potential loss next year was unacceptable. Maybe that was the right course of action, maybe it was wrong. That's not the point. The board always seems to at least sanction (if not drive through) these player sales in the end. Let's be kind and call it avaricious reluctance. Are they unaware that stripping quality from the team will have a negative effect? They have no place in football if they genuinely don't grasp such a simple cause and effect. They know what's happening for sure and they approve, or else they would use their authority to put a stop to it.

Why are we signing kids instead of the ready made quality we've needed to replace stars like Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Vieira? Because kids are cheaper. Because the board refuses to invest in the team. And we did not spend net £15 million this year. Gervinho's fee was a fraction of the amount brought in from the Fabregas and Nasri sales. And again, his wages will be a lot lower.

I understand why people are asking, why would the board do this? Don't they know asset stripping the team will deprive them of potential additional sponsorship and gate receipts? Why can the same question not be applied to Wenger? Is he unaware that a drop in quality will make his job harder? So who is guilty here? The manager who faces scorn and potentially the sack as the lack of quality bites into his ability to get results? Or the board members who have pocketed millions? Shouldn't we get real about this?

This is why I hate these fuckers so much. It's true - they do know their asset stripping will kill our opportunities to compete. Plainly they don't give a fuck, or else these concerns are very much secondary to their own personal interests. Beyond Kroenke, what is the incentive for any of the board members to even give a damn? They have their money, don't they? What do they lose if the club falters? Kroenke carries all the risk now but, as I've argued, how much risk is it in reality? Does he care what happens to the team or does he care more about property values, share values and a potential onwards sale for a healthy markup? Again, we don't know for sure. We can only make a guess based on his actions. So far his actions have very much pointed to a, "Fuck the team", attitude. We've had nothing from him. Is he biding his time, waiting for us to drop out of Europe before he makes his move to strengthen? That would seem nonsensical. Or doesn't he give a shit about that sort of stuff because he's busy working an entirely different agenda? Plainly he didn't buy in to promote the team on the field. So what did he buy in for? He's not saying. Silent Stan. Why?

Or has Wenger managed to persuade him to buy on the guarantee little money will be spent, the team will collapse and Kroenke will be left holding a lemon? Has Wenger "ordered" him to buy the club? It's all a bit ridiculous, isn't it? Poor Kroenke, poor PHW and the gang. Hapless victims of Wenger and all they have to show for it is either millions of pounds stashed in their bank accounts or a fuck-off huge property asset in the heart of London with a major fan base and prospects to enhance sponsorship arrangements around the globe and then flog the lot for a big profit. It must hurt them when they see the selfish fucking fans moan and whine on about getting value for their money, eh?

Mind you, they probably have a chuckle when so many of the fans come out and berate Wenger for making such a mess. They robbed the bank and managed to pin it on somebody else. Nicely done. The fans have been nicely done too.

I dont agree with you here but just for the sake of what I am going to ask, I will... lets say what you are saying is absolutely true, why on earth is Arsene Wenger still at the club? You may say that AW respects his contract at every club he has been at... fair enough.. but then why did he even renew his contract? Surely the board stripping the club of its resources didnt just start this season. It probably started 5-6 years back at least. Arsene, with his masters in economics, brilliant knowledge about cash flow wouldve surely been able to figure out that he was in a sinking ship and ANY chance of getting silverware were minimal.

Why did a winner like AW chose to stay back and take part in the seasonal stripping of our club? How did a man who has a say in pretty much everything the club does or has done just gone into being a wet kitten in the rain? Arsene Wenger, if he had chosen not to renew his contract wouldve easily walked into any top job (specifically Madrid) without any fuss but guess what he had to say about joining Madrid? He said he would not join a club where he does not have control over footballing matters.. so if that logic applies, why is he still with us?

These are all the monetary aspects.. what about the continuous mind baffling decisions on the field? Lets take the defense of the 06 CL team that reached the final creating a world record: Senderos (2.5 mill), Eboue (1 mill), Kolo (150K), Flamini (1 million). How did this bunch of nobodies create that defensive record? Martin Keown- a defensive coach. Dont tell me the board is stopping Arsene from getting a defensive coach!! Look at our defense as of last season- Kos (10 mill), Clichy (250k), DJ (free), Sagna (6 mill).. they cost 4 times the defense of 06 and probably shipped 4 times the amount of goals as well!

What about Arsene Wenger continually playing players out of position? Remember games where Diaby played on the left? Eduardo, Vela, Bendy on the wings? Do you think Stan calls Arsene from Missouri pressurizing him to play these players out of position? What about our formation of 4-3-3? Sure, its an average formation when we have a world class player like RVP down the middle but what happens when he is injured? Chakma as lone striker... Why not switch it to 4-4-2 with 2 strikers up front? Stan or PHW does not make these decisions!

How about last season or a few seasons back when we were one CB/GK away from being close to winning the league? Board wouldve surely sanctioned 10-15 million quid for us to buy a decent GK/CB if that meant winning the title and then making hay out of the profits of winning the PL. A greedy man surely knows when to invest.. they have not turned billionaires without investing or taking a risk once in a while. Stan might be an asshole and wanting to make the most of buying out Arsenal.. if thats the case, he would surely like to have the opportunity to sell 'Arsenal FC- English PL Champions' rather than 'AFC- 10th position in PL'!

And finally an opportunity that I think we missed a couple of seasons back... that was to re-sign Vieira. He wasnt the Vieira of 2005 but he was still better than Denilson and Diaby put together and think of what he couldve done in the dressing room. If I am not wrong, thats the same season where we stayed in the title hunt right till we fucked up in March, lost to Wigan 3-2 after leading 2-0 until 85th minute etc. Think of what PV4 couldve done as an assistant in the coaching staff at AFC now... or may be AW does not want a personality like PV4 around him. Why have a winner like PV4 who very likely would question his methods and tactics.. :patrice: is a safer bet!

[fakeyank]

Wages.

Installments.

AOC has not cost us anywhere near 15 million quid yet. It will do, but based on appearances, and other conditions. His wages will be piddly compared to an established star.

So, where does that point us??

AOC, say 5 mill, four year contract worth, say, 1.5mil a year. He will be worth his 15mil when he's established, and what will then (we hope) be an absolute fucking steal.

Samba + defensive coach....10mil fee, 3mil a year wages, plus defensive coach wages, is already 15mil.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. Wenger has certainly made some terrible decisions, but the board are the ones with the money. And they are the ones who own that cash. Not Wenger.

I think this season we are at around +17 million in transfers. Over the last 5 or 6 years, we should either have a positive net transfer balance or it will be 0. Stan Kroenke is worth 2.5 billion dollars and growing.. spending 20 million quid a season especially in the last 2-3 seasons when we were one CB/GK away from seriously winning the PL is nothing to him. To put it into perspective, 20 million pounds is 1.2% of his overall wealth. So Stan is not spending 1.2% of his overall worth because he is pocketing 20 million quid?! If he invests that 1.2%, he will get a better return in turn of shirt sales, merchandise, glory hunters and a higher percentage chances to play in the lucrative CL.. why would he not sanction what essentially to him is petty change?!

JSAO mentioned that it seems we are going in the back pages in Japanese sports magazines and newspapers. I can vouch for the same thing here in US.. before fox soccer chanel would bill Arsenal matches as title contenders pushing for glory.. now you dont even get Arsenal match previews.. now its city, chelsea, utd and liverpool. Some of the most lucrative markets for football lie in Asia, US and middle east... Real, Barca, Utd and Pool can vouch for that. Stan Kroenke and pretty much any dimwit with footballing knowledge knows that... so why would he want to hold 20 million a season and make us the fulham, wigans of english football? It does not make any business sense..

Like I said in my earlier posts, the case against the board is very weak. If this was something that could be taken to the court, it would be dismissed before even going on trial.. Arsene's case of literally dragging the club down will definitely bring a guilty verdict!

[Power n Glory]

I think this season we are at around +17 million in transfers. Over the last 5 or 6 years, we should either have a positive net transfer balance or it will be 0. Stan Kroenke is worth 2.5 billion dollars and growing.. spending 20 million quid a season especially in the last 2-3 seasons when we were one CB/GK away from seriously winning the PL is nothing to him. To put it into perspective, 20 million pounds is 1.2% of his overall wealth. So Stan is not spending 1.2% of his overall worth because he is pocketing 20 million quid?! If he invests that 1.2%, he will get a better return in turn of shirt sales, merchandise, glory hunters and a higher percentage chances to play in the lucrative CL.. why would he not sanction what essentially to him is petty change?!JSAO mentioned that it seems we are going in the back pages in Japanese sports magazines and newspapers. I can vouch for the same thing here in US.. before fox soccer chanel would bill Arsenal matches as title contenders pushing for glory.. now you dont even get Arsenal match previews.. now its city, chelsea, utd and liverpool. Some of the most lucrative markets for football lie in Asia, US and middle east... Real, Barca, Utd and Pool can vouch for that. Stan Kroenke and pretty much any dimwit with footballing knowledge knows that... so why would he want to hold 20 million a season and make us the fulham, wigans of english football? It does not make any business sense..Like I said in my earlier posts, the case against the board is very weak. If this was something that could be taken to the court, it would be dismissed before even going on trial.. Arsene's case of literally dragging the club down will definitely bring a guilty verdict!Even if Stan put his own money up, couldn't that be considered as financial 'doping'? It's something Wenger has preached hard against and just a few pages back, a few posters said it was unfair and killing football. It would be hypocritical of us to be up on our soapbox about what how other clubs should be run and then accept money from our wealthy boards members to buy players. Wenger has pinned himself into a corner with his protesting and some of the posturing on here about Man City fans has a few posters on here stuck as well. Huge contradictions. The Board are getting stick for not putting their own money up but some would say that would tarnish any future success because we bought it. So what are we saying here? We keep going in this direction and let the fans pay for an unsussessful overpaid team? Also, do we want a Board that gets involved with the affairs of the manager and tells him what to spend, where and on who? FK, you made a good point about Wenger turning down the Real Madrid position and Wenger has always hailed the way this club is run and how the Board allow him to do his job.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I don't have a problem with owners investing some money in to the club they own, it's their right to do so - even the Financial Fair Play rules (whether they actually do something significant is up for debate) say owners can invest a specific amount in to their club. What I do have a problem with is when a club spends so much money (and don't have anywhere near as much coming back in) that in any other circumstance would see them go out of business. As far as I know that example is what Wenger meant by financial doping.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger preaches spending within your means and spending what the club earns. If Stan throws in money from other ventures outside or Arsenal, that's wrong according to Wenger. I don't have a problem with Stan pumping in his millions.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Wenger preaches spending within your means and spending what the club earns. If Stan throws in money from other ventures outside or Arsenal, that's wrong according to Wenger. I don't have a problem with Stan pumping in his millions.

This is true but the financial doping part of it, I guess is something different. Anyway Wenger was probably opposed to an outside investor coming in initially, so you suspect he'd get over the possibility of being hypocritical and I suspect it would soon be forgotten about (by the media). However with Kroenke only owning a portion of the club, I don't think it'll happen.

[Power n Glory]

Convenient amnesia for fans as well. I doubt it will happen while Wenger is still manager. Gazidis has said he isn't opposed to outside investment, we just have to compete against it. In a few years, if we find ourselves slipping further down the table and losing money, they will adopt a new strategy.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I dont agree with you here but just for the sake of what I am going to ask, I will... lets say what you are saying is absolutely true, why on earth is Arsene Wenger still at the club? You may say that AW respects his contract at every club he has been at... fair enough.. but then why did he even renew his contract? Surely the board stripping the club of its resources didnt just start this season. It probably started 5-6 years back at least. Arsene, with his masters in economics, brilliant knowledge about cash flow wouldve surely been able to figure out that he was in a sinking ship and ANY chance of getting silverware were minimal.

Why did a winner like AW chose to stay back and take part in the seasonal stripping of our club? How did a man who has a say in pretty much everything the club does or has done just gone into being a wet kitten in the rain? Arsene Wenger, if he had chosen not to renew his contract wouldve easily walked into any top job (specifically Madrid) without any fuss but guess what he had to say about joining Madrid? He said he would not join a club where he does not have control over footballing matters.. so if that logic applies, why is he still with us?

These are all the monetary aspects.. what about the continuous mind baffling decisions on the field? Lets take the defense of the 06 CL team that reached the final creating a world record: Senderos (2.5 mill), Eboue (1 mill), Kolo (150K), Flamini (1 million). How did this bunch of nobodies create that defensive record? Martin Keown- a defensive coach. Dont tell me the board is stopping Arsene from getting a defensive coach!! Look at our defense as of last season- Kos (10 mill), Clichy (250k), DJ (free), Sagna (6 mill).. they cost 4 times the defense of 06 and probably shipped 4 times the amount of goals as well!

What about Arsene Wenger continually playing players out of position? Remember games where Diaby played on the left? Eduardo, Vela, Bendy on the wings? Do you think Stan calls Arsene from Missouri pressurizing him to play these players out of position? What about our formation of 4-3-3? Sure, its an average formation when we have a world class player like RVP down the middle but what happens when he is injured? Chakma as lone striker... Why not switch it to 4-4-2 with 2 strikers up front? Stan or PHW does not make these decisions!

How about last season or a few seasons back when we were one CB/GK away from being close to winning the league? Board wouldve surely sanctioned 10-15 million quid for us to buy a decent GK/CB if that meant winning the title and then making hay out of the profits of winning the PL. A greedy man surely knows when to invest.. they have not turned billionaires without investing or taking a risk once in a while. Stan might be an asshole and wanting to make the most of buying out Arsenal.. if thats the case, he would surely like to have the opportunity to sell 'Arsenal FC- English PL Champions' rather than 'AFC- 10th position in PL'!

And finally an opportunity that I think we missed a couple of seasons back... that was to re-sign Vieira. He wasnt the Vieira of 2005 but he was still better than Denilson and Diaby put together and think of what he couldve done in the dressing room. If I am not wrong, thats the same season where we stayed in the title hunt right till we fucked up in March, lost to Wigan 3-2 after leading 2-0 until 85th minute etc. Think of what PV4 couldve done as an assistant in the coaching staff at AFC now... or may be AW does not want a personality like PV4 around him. Why have a winner like PV4 who very likely would question his methods and tactics.. :patrice: is a safer bet!

TBH I dont think anyone disagreed with you with regards to who is to blame for what goes on on the pitch, formation, tactics, players out of position. I think only a fool would think that the board had anything to do with this.

I think where people feel the board the board are to blame is for the continued decline to be accepted/ignored under the same manager. As the employer of a failing project we would like to think that the board hold the club in more high esteem and address this problem. The fact that they are not leads some yo vent at this body.
However another argument against the board and one that may be Wengers saviour is that he in fact is meeting criteria laid down by his employers and by achieving certsin goals ie racking in the cash, he may be considered to be doing a job well done.

For the fans this is as if we are being taken the piss out of, ad our criteria is for our team to win games and ultimately trophies.

I for one do think Wenger throws games so that we dont overachieve ie third instead of fourth and do not doubt for a minute that his power is immense but he csnt sack himself and his stubborn nature shows he wont be inclined to walk either.
So yes Wenger is to blame for sub par performances and the board for accepting them just so they can line their pockets.