Should we be worried about our club's future?

So its pretty clear that we are seeing the last throes of the Wenger era. This season has shown us in stark relief that the manager does not have what it takes to build a title winning team - but more worryingly that we can no longer look at so-called financial doping to explain why our team cannot fulfill its potential to be winners. Having seen what we have seen, even if by some fluke Leicester and Sp*rs contrive to throw away their advantage over us, I think its fair to say that for a club of our size and ambitions the Premiership would be ours by default rather than on real merit. Even if Wenger doesn't walk and we suffer another couple of years of relative mediocrity there is nothing to suggest that, having had 10 years to plan winning the league and come up short, the manager will alter his approach - or indeed do anything substantive to address the perennial failings of his team.

But while I think most Gooners have come to the point where almost anything would be preferable to our endless cycle of under-achievement, is there any real cause for optimism about our short to mid term future? One of the reasons why it has taken so long for many fans to bite the bullet and wish Wenger gone is that top 4 and CL football is preferable to mid table obscurity. Wenger is fond of pointing out that he sees himself as a custodian of the club's future security - but in reality will he end up leaving a base that can and will be built on to achieve more than we have become accustomed to over the past decade?

As well as showing that proper coaching; tactics and getting the basics right remain the key to footballing success, this season (and in the case of Manure and Liverpool - the past few seasons) has also shown us that even with managers of repute, there is no quick fix when successful managers leave a club. Looking at Manure's decline and even identity crisis since SAF retired, it is difficult not to be apprehensive about what happens to us when Wenger goes. Manure were similar to us in terms of their manager's longevity, but Wenger is even more embedded in the very essence culture and workings of our club - to the extent that unlike SAF, we don't even have any tradition of proper coaches working under him. Could the power vacuum be even more destructive with our team?

And added to that, unlike Manure; Liverpool; Citeh or the Chavs we have an owner who does not even regard footballing success as essential to his business model - let alone as something to aspire to for its own sake. We have a 'board' in name only as far as decision making is concerned; and an impotent chief executive. Do we even trust them to appoint the right successor - let alone to invest the money to support him?

I think we can assume that our competitors will make managerial signings that reflect their ambitions. Citeh have already; Manure and the Chavs surely cannot get it wrong forever, and Liverpool have appointed someone who we all expected to be more of a success than he has been to date (which merely underlines the difficulty of achieving success from a broadly similar base to our own). With the TV money, our league is only getting ever more competetive - and we have seen this over the past season.

So - Wenger or not - do we feel that there is a cause for optimism that we will be successful going forwards, or is there every reason to be concerned that we will be the Liverpool of our own era - 26 years and counting since last winning the league? Thoughts?

The club is set up to provide self-sustaining success going forward (mostly thanks to Wenger)

As long as his successor is selected carefully then there's nothing to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Douglas Reynholm

The club is set up to provide self-sustaining success going forward (mostly thanks to Wenger)

As long as his successor is selected carefully then there's nothing to worry about.

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Pretty much.

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Originally Posted by Douglas Reynholm

The club is set up to provide self-sustaining success going forward (mostly thanks to Wenger)

As long as his successor is selected carefully then there's nothing to worry about.

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I disagree. The club is, and has been set up for years to be self-sustaining - yes. But let's face it 'success' for our owner is a healthy balance sheet and cash reserves - not what we fans consider 'success' to be. Perhaps the owner and the so-called board will be motivated to try to ensure that we retain our seat at the CL table (or that we are in prime position for the European Super league of whatever), but is there any evidence that they will appoint and back a manager with the ability and hunger to be a true winner? And what's more, who is the person that they are most likely to turn to to identify Wenger's successor? If our manager's approach to player transfers is anything to go on - he is far more likely to nominate someone in his own mould - who subscribes to his own football philosophy - than anything else. A lack of ambition has characterised our club over the past decade - why assume that this will change with our manager? Personally, I cannot see Arsenal becoming any more pragmatic than it currently is - and we are about as far as it is possible to be when it comes to this new era of constant rotation of managers - something that manure and Liverpool have struggled badly with themselves.

Looking at our board - when Wenger was appointed we have David Dein and Danny Fiszman at the helm. Ambitious people with vision, and a long term desire to see Arsenal as a truly successful club in Europe. This vision has become subverted by the ideal of 'sustainability', and I simply don't see any reason to think that this will change when Wenger leaves.

And that's not even getting into the fact that our club is not in isolation and is competing against hungrier opposition that sees on pitch success as the key to their business models.

Indeed we are self-sustaining - by "we" I mean Kroenke. Because that's what's actually being sustained, isn't it? His investment. Are we self-sustaining going forward as a footballing force though? I can't see it. After all the projects and plans designed to pull in the cash, even with world record gate receipts, we still hear talk of a £70mill "war chest". Utd will most likely spend twice or three times that rebuilding their squad under a new manager. The Spanish clubs, Bayern, PSG, they'll all dwarf our "skirmish chest" with their spending. These clubs can compete for the very best players, if they want them they go and get them. We still need to find angles and discounts and one-off circumstances to lure genuine talent and much of the lure was the Wenger myth which has now been clinically exposed. So let's not pretend we are the football power we think we are. We are the leading business in the football industry, that's all. We still lag well behind the real football powers and there's no indication that will be changing.

You can point out the many nefarious means by which the competition stays ahead and you might not approve of it but it remains a fact, we still can't compete. Or you could fall back on this idea that money is no longer the ultimate factor, based on Leicester's performance this season. But that would be naive thinking. Look at what was uncovered just last week. As soon as an outsider steps into the reserved territory of the "big" flops we see covert meetings and talk of plans to lock in the privileges of the money clubs. At most you can say the Wenger myth kept us in the "big 5" reckoning. That will be worth something, but how sad we even think about such underhand means to preserve our status because we can't do it on the pitch.

If we can't buy our way to success then what's happening internally that might offer another route? Nothing is the answer. Look at the state of our "hot" prospects like Walcott and Chamberlain. Where are the youth prodigies? Who is coming through to make a big impact on the European and global stage? Nobody is the answer. What happened to Project Youth? What did it yield?

Even when we get a new manager in, if Kroenke remains and the focus of the club is unchanged then how much opportunity will the new guy really have? Will his job be to push us on as a football team or simply keep as at a level that delivers the financial returns the owners have so far prioritised? Did Wenger, with all his influence, ever try to force a change in the mentality? It appears not. Could a new manager step in and change the culture given he'd surely start with much less influence in far fewer aspects of the club (and rightly so) than Wenger? I doubt it. We'd have to find a guy who could succeed despite the owners. Who could it be and how long could he expect to remain in charge?

And if by some miracle Kroenke pissed off, look at who is waiting behind him. A guy who has only recently made very clear he aims to keep his grip on his shares for the benefits they can offer to his crime family. He's the one who wanted dividends paid out from day one, don't forget that.

After the shambles of this season, can we hang on to the few genuine star players we have. Probably yes, for another season. I expect to see contract negotiations strung out as Bosman windows approach. Then we'll have a choice of caving in to huge demands or letting players go while they still have value. We've seen it before. Grand plans that don't materialise, transfer windows that plunge the club into gloom rather than build anticipation and expectation. Huge demands on individual players to make up for the long standing gaps in quality. There have been too many false dawns, too many promises, too many proclamations that finally we have the resources to compete followed by failure to utilise those resources. Players will be wise now. When they see the likes of Ozil and Alexis come here only to languish in the customary also-rans placings and be embarrassed in the Champions League it's a powerful message. Why would a player who can take his pick choose Arsenal?

What I do know is the longer Wenger remains the more it will drain the potential of the club, in football terms. An owner with balls and a will to win would have pushed the faded and well past it manager out the door the second Guardiola became available. We should have secured him at all costs because he's a guy who could change the culture. Even if he's not the best thing since sliced bread (and we'll soon find out) his appointment would have been a massive statement of intent. But we don't have people running this club who think like that. They have an entirely different agenda.

Which is why Wenger will be here for a while yet. And why we'll end up right back at the start when he eventually goes. We've reached our limit. Not because we couldn't succeed on the pitch if we put our minds to it and backed the effort with resolve and resources. But because we're owned by leeches who understand nothing about this game and don't feel the need to ever learn. They are getting precisely what they want and what they want most is Wenger because he feeds their true and only passion - money.

I'm not particularly worried, I believe we have one of the best set ups in the game for any young and hungry manager to excel. The hands-off approach of our board is a concern but lets not forget that Wenger is the last of his kind, no other manager is bullet proof these days. Once he has gone the club will have to move in line with other top clubs who take a sterner stance with the performance of a team and it's manager.

It's easy to see why the board have just let Wenger get on with it, top 4 security coupled with the fact Wenger's legacy makes it very difficult, maybe impossible to sack him. The problem is right now the board have no decisions to make but when Wenger goes, that will all change. Wenger and his position with us is a complete anomaly.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Indeed we are self-sustaining - by "we" I mean Kroenke. Because that's what's actually being sustained, isn't it? His investment. Are we self-sustaining going forward as a footballing force though? I can't see it. After all the projects and plans designed to pull in the cash, even with world record gate receipts, we still hear talk of a £70mill "war chest". Utd will most likely spend twice or three times that rebuilding their squad under a new manager. The Spanish clubs, Bayern, PSG, they'll all dwarf our "skirmish chest" with their spending. These clubs can compete for the very best players, if they want them they go and get them. We still need to find angles and discounts and one-off circumstances to lure genuine talent and much of the lure was the Wenger myth which has now been clinically exposed. So let's not pretend we are the football power we think we are. We are the leading business in the football industry, that's all. We still lag well behind the real football powers and there's no indication that will be changing.

You can point out the many nefarious means by which the competition stays ahead and you might not approve of it but it remains a fact, we still can't compete. Or you could fall back on this idea that money is no longer the ultimate factor, based on Leicester's performance this season. But that would be naive thinking. Look at what was uncovered just last week. As soon as an outsider steps into the reserved territory of the "big" flops we see covert meetings and talk of plans to lock in the privileges of the money clubs. At most you can say the Wenger myth kept us in the "big 5" reckoning. That will be worth something, but how sad we even think about such underhand means to preserve our status because we can't do it on the pitch.

If we can't buy our way to success then what's happening internally that might offer another route? Nothing is the answer. Look at the state of our "hot" prospects like Walcott and Chamberlain. Where are the youth prodigies? Who is coming through to make a big impact on the European and global stage? Nobody is the answer. What happened to Project Youth? What did it yield?

Even when we get a new manager in, if Kroenke remains and the focus of the club is unchanged then how much opportunity will the new guy really have? Will his job be to push us on as a football team or simply keep as at a level that delivers the financial returns the owners have so far prioritised? Did Wenger, with all his influence, ever try to force a change in the mentality? It appears not. Could a new manager step in and change the culture given he'd surely start with much less influence in far fewer aspects of the club (and rightly so) than Wenger? I doubt it. We'd have to find a guy who could succeed despite the owners. Who could it be and how long could he expect to remain in charge?

And if by some miracle Kroenke pissed off, look at who is waiting behind him. A guy who has only recently made very clear he aims to keep his grip on his shares for the benefits they can offer to his crime family. He's the one who wanted dividends paid out from day one, don't forget that.

After the shambles of this season, can we hang on to the few genuine star players we have. Probably yes, for another season. I expect to see contract negotiations strung out as Bosman windows approach. Then we'll have a choice of caving in to huge demands or letting players go while they still have value. We've seen it before. Grand plans that don't materialise, transfer windows that plunge the club into gloom rather than build anticipation and expectation. Huge demands on individual players to make up for the long standing gaps in quality. There have been too many false dawns, too many promises, too many proclamations that finally we have the resources to compete followed by failure to utilise those resources. Players will be wise now. When they see the likes of Ozil and Alexis come here only to languish in the customary also-rans placings and be embarrassed in the Champions League it's a powerful message. Why would a player who can take his pick choose Arsenal?

What I do know is the longer Wenger remains the more it will drain the potential of the club, in football terms. An owner with balls and a will to win would have pushed the faded and well past it manager out the door the second Guardiola became available. We should have secured him at all costs because he's a guy who could change the culture. Even if he's not the best thing since sliced bread (and we'll soon find out) his appointment would have been a massive statement of intent. But we don't have people running this club who think like that. They have an entirely different agenda.

Which is why Wenger will be here for a while yet. And why we'll end up right back at the start when he eventually goes. We've reached our limit. Not because we couldn't succeed on the pitch if we put our minds to it and backed the effort with resolve and resources. But because we're owned by leeches who understand nothing about this game and don't feel the need to ever learn. They are getting precisely what they want and what they want most is Wenger because he feeds their true and only passion - money.

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Yes - its a bitter irony that we are owned by billionaires, but have managed to chose a controlling owner who only takes money out of our club rather than investing in the footballing side; and who isn't even prepared to leverage his asset to fund our progress on the field. And to cap it off is not even interested in the team being successful. This is essentially why I worry what the future holds in terms of Arsenal's success as a football club as opposed to a business - and I can't help feeling that trusting that Wenger will leave a springboard to be built on is little different to trusting that having managed the new stadium project, this would lead to success on the pitch. the latter didn't happen, why should the former?

You also raise an interesting point re the lure of the manager for players. Despite his fading star, Wenger, and the way he plays football has undoubtedly been a factor in some of our best players coming to the club. When he goes - and with the club undoubtedly remaining unwilling to pay top dollar - what will happen on the player recruitment side?

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I'm not particularly worried, I believe we have one of the best set ups in the game for any young and hungry manager to excel. The hands-off approach of our board is a concern but lets not forget that Wenger is the last of his kind, no other manager is bullet proof these days. Once he has gone the club will have to move in line with other top clubs who take a sterner stance with the performance of a team and it's manager.

It's easy to see why the board have just let Wenger get on with it, top 4 security coupled with the fact Wenger's legacy makes it very difficult, maybe impossible to sack him. The problem is right now the board have no decisions to make but when Wenger goes, that will all change. Wenger and his position with us is a complete anomaly.

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But the highlighted text infers that its only Wenger that is responsible for the apparent complacency that we are seeing now. I think that its something that runs through the club from top to bottom, and that there is no reason to believe that success will trump profits going forwards....

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Originally Posted by IBK

But the highlighted text infers that its only Wenger that is responsible for the apparent complacency that we are seeing now. I think that its something that runs through the club from top to bottom, and that there is no reason to believe that success will trump profits going forwards....

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Both are equally responsible for the malaise. Maybe it is wishful thinking but I just think the situation at our club is very unique and I don't think it's a given that Wenger's successor will be given the same free reign.

It's a collision of two very destructive flaws. The greed and indifference of the owners, past and present, coupled with the incompetence of the manager. Even with the impediment of the former I think a half decent manager could have dragged a lot more out of the players we've had over the past decade. The record reveals the truth. Wenger is a poor manager. He might be great at all the other stuff involving board level functions that he shouldn't be involved in at all, but he's a poor football manager. So poor, in fact, we have to invent special trophies to feed his legacy. Most consecutive years in the top 4 (the Top 4 Trophy), most points in the calendar year (The Consistency Trophy), highest net profit in a transfer window (The Moral Superiority Cup). The reality is, zero titles, domestically or European. Even Liverpool has a bettered that record. I believe we still have enough of a squad for a new manager to work with if Wenger leaves now. If he hangs around until 2017/18 though, that may not be the case.