Match Reaction vs Bayern Munich

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Originally Posted by Grebbo

Didn't Henderson get his shot away and then it was saved/blocked off one player on to another player and then the ball rolled right into Henderson's path for a tap in? I'm sure it was something like that.

Anyway they all count and we were well beaten last night I'm not disputing that. It just seems that when you're on a bad run you don't get any breaks whereas the opposition often does.

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Ramsey blocked his first shot, it hit Santos and rolled into Henderson's path. You could say lucky (I'd be hesitant to since no one would have said it was unlucky for us if it hit Santos and went straight to Sneezy), but he should never have been allowed to get that close to the goal in the first place, nevermind have a shot.

You could say the same about last night's goals. Their first was a poor cross but there was no picking them up, their second was just dreadful defending. I'll let you have their third, since it looped up and in. I take the point about when you are on a bad run you don't get the breaks, but a lot of the time that's just down to bad defending/finishing/passing/concentration. An example for Liverpool last season; we hit the post a silly number of times. That stops being bad luck and is just put down to poor finishing after a while. And because we couldn't score, our defensive mistakes and lapses were often more important than they should have been and just conceding one was more of a mountain than it should have been. And as you say, you got your own slice of luck with your goal from the "corner"; but even then Bayern themselves will be disappointed with their defending and letting it bounce in their own 6 yard box.

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Originally Posted by Grebbo

Didn't Henderson get his shot away and then it was saved/blocked off one player on to another player and then the ball rolled right into Henderson's path for a tap in? I'm sure it was something like that.

Anyway they all count and we were well beaten last night I'm not disputing that. It just seems that when you're on a bad run you don't get any breaks whereas the opposition often does.

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We got a break, we'd been comprehensively outplayed by a Bayern who to be honest didn't play that well and as Letters said didn't get out of 2nd gear when we got a goal form a corner which anyone with eyes could see was never one.

Before this we didn't offer any threat at all and huffed and puffed a bit, so we got our break (one we didn't deserve and still couldn't make the most of it). We've been on a bad run for much of this season, guess why? We're not good enough, the manager hasn't coached the players, the tactics are non existent, the defending is atrocious and there's a lack of quality due to his poor signings.

There's no excuses for what is car crash management, I'd have expected players to come out and really get in the faces of the Bayern players and run their hearts out, that's how you react to adversity, by fighting for and chasing every ball until you can't anymore....when the chips are down we collapse in a heap as we have done for as many years as I can remember under Wenger.

You make your own luck really. Everyone has moments which go for or against them, there's no point in dwelling on things like that. Our last 2 league wins have come about from deflected attempts.

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Originally Posted by LDG

You make your own luck.

If we had stopped the source of the danger for their three goals (also known as having a left back), the unlucky way the ball went in wouldn't have been an issue.

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Exactly right, if you spend more time in the opponents penalty box and less in your own then "luck" will go your way.

We have a serious problem at the back, one that had existed ever since cashley left. It has to be a tactical decision by the manager because Clichy (eventually), Gibbs, Santos and even Vermaelen all do it - they leave a huge space for the opposition to play into and they leave yards between themselves and their man. Remember how cashley and Clichy used to arrive at high speed and be all over their man like a rash?

Similar problems in the centre of defence, players standing off and letting the opposition walk through our intricate zonal system, literally walk through, take up prime position and score. We say we don't have any defensive tactics but I think it just looks that way. I think we probably have some horrible, complex, convoluted bullshit system that no defender would comprehend. It's not disorganisation, it's total confusion. Which is why it's so bizarre to have bought a defender like Merts. Surely if you buy him you go man-to-man at the back and clobber everything that comes near? How can Merts even get in the game if he's zonal and has to quickly cover short distances in reaction to what fast and intelligent front men are doing?

That's probably why TV looks like a headless chicken, and Kos. They are dashing around the place like loons. Almost as if they have two positions to cover in whatever fucked up system we are using. That's why playing Walcott central is a shit idea too. We used to use RvP's size and heading ability in defensive situations and from set pieces. He was an extra man at the back and effective. Giroud could be that too (and has been), we can't afford to have these guys off the pitch. The whole Walcott through the middle thing is a non-starter unless we are going to get a new Vieria to provide the essential cover required for luxury players who can only fill one role. Which is maybe why we have persisted with Diaby... and on it goes. We should have sold Walcott and splashed £30-£40 on a proper striker - it would have been cheaper in the long run because he could have fired us back into Europe.

We make all our own problems. It's not about being unlucky it's about a system that just doesn't work unless there's very high quality mixed with steel. We have sold our quality and the steel has been gone for a long time. We need to get back to the very basics but there's too much arrogance in this manager and way to much arrogance and complacency in the players. So maybe a new manager will work at least in that respect.

That was such a clueless and pointless team selection last night. And the fact Wenger didn't change it when it was so clearly not working was scandalous. Anyone would look bad in this team I think, except for Jack who's such quality he can do the things that stand out despite the rabble around him. Which is a shame because increasingly Jack is running around with a huge price tag on his back. What a horrible situation to be in when you hope your best player has an off night so he doesn't attract attention.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Exactly right, if you spend more time in the opponents penalty box and less in your own then "luck" will go your way.

We have a serious problem at the back, one that had existed ever since cashley left. It has to be a tactical decision by the manager because Clichy (eventually), Gibbs, Santos and even Vermaelen all do it - they leave a huge space for the opposition to play into and they leave yards between themselves and their man. Remember how cashley and Clichy used to arrive at high speed and be all over their man like a rash?

Similar problems in the centre of defence, players standing off and letting the opposition walk through our intricate zonal system, literally walk through, take up prime position and score. We say we don't have any defensive tactics but I think it just looks that way. I think we probably have some horrible, complex, convoluted bullshit system that no defender would comprehend. It's not disorganisation, it's total confusion. Which is why it's so bizarre to have bought a defender like Merts. Surely if you buy him you go man-to-man at the back and clobber everything that comes near? How can Merts even get in the game if he's zonal and has to quickly cover short distances in reaction to what fast and intelligent front men are doing?

That's probably why TV looks like a headless chicken, and Kos. They are dashing around the place like loons. Almost as if they have two positions to cover in whatever fucked up system we are using. That's why playing Walcott central is a shit idea too. We used to use RvP's size and heading ability in defensive situations and from set pieces. He was an extra man at the back and effective. Giroud could be that too (and has been), we can't afford to have these guys off the pitch. The whole Walcott through the middle thing is a non-starter unless we are going to get a new Vieria to provide the essential cover required for luxury players who can only fill one role. Which is maybe why we have persisted with Diaby... and on it goes. We should have sold Walcott and splashed £30-£40 on a proper striker - it would have been cheaper in the long run because he could have fired us back into Europe.

We make all our own problems. It's not about being unlucky it's about a system that just doesn't work unless there's very high quality mixed with steel. We have sold our quality and the steel has been gone for a long time. We need to get back to the very basics but there's too much arrogance in this manager and way to much arrogance and complacency in the players. So maybe a new manager will work at least in that respect.

That was such a clueless and pointless team selection last night. And the fact Wenger didn't change it when it was so clearly not working was scandalous. Anyone would look bad in this team I think, except for Jack who's such quality he can do the things that stand out despite the rabble around him. Which is a shame because increasingly Jack is running around with a huge price tag on his back. What a horrible situation to be in when you hope your best player has an off night so he doesn't attract attention.

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Spot on.

The bolded bit is the real problem. It is becomming increasingly obvious that our glorious teams of the past were left to organise and motivate themselves. And we got away with it, because they were "exceptional quality".

I get the point being made by those who are saying that we simply got beaten by the better team, and contrasting this to the Blackburn; Bradford and other games - but IMO this does not invalidate some of the complaints being made in this thread.

Bayern were indeed the obviously superior team - and in fact I found myself admiring their style of play; attitude and authority with which they bossed us around.

But firstly, this served to highlight our dismal decline as a team. On the latest figures, we are the 6th richest club in the world by revenue (incidentally, 2 places behind Bayern Munich). We should be challenging them, not being totally outclassed by them. This may be controversial, but in my view, Wenger is as guilty as the rest of the board in the decisions that have led to this sorry state of affairs. He has at at the very least colluded in, and IMHO orchestrated the sale of our best players year on year. If these sales were 'imposed' on him (which I cannot believe) then Wenger is as guilty as anyone in accepting it - when given his unprecedented position of power at our club he could have walked, (or threatened to) and gone to one of those many clubs that he claims have been in for him over the years unless he was allowed to keep players that he had put so much effort into to make them world beaters. In the unlikely 'imposed' situation - simply by staying, the manager has accepted his club being an also ran - which is simply unacceptable for a manager of what should be a top team on 7M per year.

Moreover - to the extent that our best players have become disillusioned with the club and have left - whose fault is that? If Wenger had won some silverware over the past 8 years then maybe that would have persuaded them to stay. That is the basic and unavoidable truth. The board doesn't pick the team; does not train them; is not responsible for motivating them, for guiding them. The manager is. And anywhere else - anywhere with a grain of self respect or ambition he would be held accountable.

It is no surprise to me that our best players have left. They can see even better than us that this possession game - this tippy tap bollox - is not working. Why do we start games so inhibited? Why do we play games with the handbreak on? Because the players do not believe that they can win. If you are in a fight to the death, holding a rusty Colt 45, against an opponent with a Desert Eagle then you will shit yourself.

Wenger makes a fool of himself in the media by bigging up his players - presumably on the basis that he thinks that this will instill confidence in them. What will instill confidence is a game plan; some proper coaching; some proper tactical preparation and an intimate understanding of what is expected from you and your team-mates. Bayern had all of this, added to a winning track record. We had none - and it was obvious a mile off.

And this is where the comparisons between Bayern and Blackburn ring true. Our players tried harder last night, yes - but the ease with which both opponents frustrated us simply by sticking to their game plans; and our cluelessness when it came to ours werre there for all to see.

Results don't lie. They are straightforward evidence that Wenger's methods on the football pitch are not working (and probably only ever worked because of the players he inherited, and his mastery of European scouting at a time when most of the rest of the EPL was miles behind). Yet the manager refuses to see this, and in the meantime, our stock as a football club sinks lower and lower. We are already on the transition where we will soon not even be regarded as underachievers - and when you think that in 03/04 we were unbeaten in the league, and 2 years from completion of the best football ground in the country, the decline to what we saw last night is very, very sad.

By failing to focus on success on the pitch, the club has got things very wrong - and I honestly wonder how long we will remain in the football rich list. I think we have probably already lost a whole generation of worldwide support, and while Kroenke and Usmanov sit on their piles of money, I fear that the foundations of the club's value are already eroded. Wenger - with his absolutely unprecedented prominence and power at AFC is an intrinsic part of this.

Verm at LB has never worked, he's always going to drift inside because that's where he feels comfortable. It's a shame about Gibbs but him being out for a lengthy period happens every year so there's no surprises there

I don't understand why Rosicky isn't in the team, he's a heck of a lot better than Ramzi and also provides the same ability to cover ground.

The biggest fuck up though was not playing Giroud. Playing Theo against the brutes in their back 4 was just silly, I'm pretty sure they weren't even jumping to win headers against him at one point. You play Theo against teams you know will give you space, not against drilled units like this.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

The biggest fuck up though was not playing Giroud. Playing Theo against the brutes in their back 4 was just silly, I'm pretty sure they weren't even jumping to win headers against him at one point. You play Theo against teams you know will give you space, not against drilled units like this.

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the only logic i can think of is that he thought theo's pace could keep their back four deep and give us more space to exploit between their mid and def. the only problem is, this wasn't fucking reading or some other numpties we were playing but one of the best drilled teams in europe. i mean jesus, you take it as read that ANY german term will arrive organised and pretty hard to break down - as we found with 8th place schalke earlier in the group stage.

agree about rosicky. when he came on he had energy. much needed energy and drive to do something. why not put him out wide instead of ramsey, who never works out there? rosicky needs to be back in the side for the run-in, without question.

I have no idea what Wenger is thinking with this squad selection. Theo was playing on the shoulder or the Munich defenders all night but was getting no service. I have no idea why he wasn't dropping deeper to at least get a touch of the ball and play a few one twos with other players.

Pod isn't involved for most of the game because he's having his own fitness battle on the pithch. It's more of a cardio work out for him. He's slow to get back to defend and he's slow to get into good attacking positions on breaks. He hasn't got the engine for the flanks and he'll end up like Arshavin if not careful.

The midfield trio have no positional awareness and no cohesion. Wenger needs to bring in Rosicky because his brief cameo sparked one of the best moves of the evening.

We're already in February and I can't believe Wenger is still using the same players and tactics after countless games of looking harmless. It makes no sense. The most radical move last night was starting Theo up front on his own and that was just silly. It made no sense to do that against a well drilled German team in a high profile game like this.

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Originally Posted by fakeyank

Fans were fighting amongst themselves?! :lol:

And to think, I was thinking of going to London to watch a game this season.. next season perhaps :lol:

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Used to be a season ticket holder myself - only time I have ever seen trouble at Emirates was Arsenal fans fighting amoungst themselves - seen it a couple of times