Match reacton - Soton

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

He's the guy who sets out on a 100 mile journey with EXACTLY 100 miles of fuel in the car, provided he travels at optimum speed all the way. There's no allowance for hitting jams and no capacity to accelerate when the road is clear. Chug, chug, chug, 56mph all the way. There's one petrol station along the way (in January) - if he's fucked the journey to that point he'll buy one extra litre of fuel, just the one. If he's doing okay on consumption he'll sail right past, ignoring the sign that warns of the same roadblock ahead that has been there for 10 years. He's totally fucking incompetent. Happens every year and every year he changes the seat covers and tells us it's the best car he ever had.

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:haha:

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Originally Posted by Letters

What do you mean 'deflect'? Deflect from what?
Do you even understand how debate works? You say something I disagree with so I respond saying why I don't agree and, where relevant, backing up my position with evidence.
You then respond and so on. That is all that is happening.

You stated that Wenger's primary goal is top 4, you backed that up with a quote (which you provided no source for by the way).
I I found an actual source where Wenger said that 4th was his 3rd priority, below the two big competitions and (interestingly) above the FA Cup. And his stated reason for that was that players are more interested in whether we're playing in the CL than whether we won a domestic trophy. The Guardiola quote was an addition to demonstrate that Wenger is not uniquely of the opinion that top 4 is an important benchmark.


I see you ignored my first post in this thread, or one of the first, where I said that even though City are going mental and no-one is going to catch them, we're not going to be winning titles with this defence or away record.
So no, not dismissing it at all.

Can you really not wrap your head around the idea that someone can think someone should be sacked but not think every criticism of that person is justified? I honestly don't think it's a difficult concept.

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I know very well how debate works.

We argue in turn until one argument prevails and the other is defeated, based preferably on facts and evidence.

But that's not how you "debate". Sure, you do the back and forwards thing. For sure, your argument is defeated. Bu the difference is, you then go back to the start as if the debate never occurred.

And 10 years later...

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

For sure, your argument is defeated.

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Yep. You said that Wenger's top priority is to finish in the top 4 and to back that up you quoted Wenger without providing the source for that quote, so maybe you made it up, who knows?
I responded by finding an actual quote where Wenger clearly put finishing top 4 below winning the league (which is obvious) and the CL and above the FA Cup.
But yes, it's definitely my argument which has been defeated.
You win again.
Clever you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Letters

Yep. You said that Wenger's top priority is to finish in the top 4 and to back that up you quoted Wenger without providing the source for that quote, so maybe you made it up, who knows?
I responded by finding an actual quote where Wenger clearly put finishing top 4 below winning the league (which is obvious) and the CL and above the FA Cup.
But yes, it's definitely my argument which has been defeated.
You win again.
Clever you.

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Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote into Google? Then you'd know, wouldn't you? It's the infamous quote that the world of football seized on to rip the piss out of the tired old fool.

And your quote is meaningless in the real world. Just words tumbling out of the old goat's lying gob, as usual. So what if he says the title is more important than his Top 4 Trophy? What can we judge by his actions? A stream of Top 4 Trophies and not a sniff of a title. And as for the CL, don't make me laugh. All your quote proves is that you ignore what Wenger does, so busy are you hanging on what he says. I called him a liar and you proved it. Thanks.

The desperation to defend the fool in the face of a decade of sorry evidence, it's the reason why this has-been has lasted so long and somehow lingers on even now. Fans hanging on the ancient past and arguing tooth and nail with those who point to the present.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

He's the guy who sets out on a 100 mile journey with EXACTLY 100 miles of fuel in the car, provided he travels at optimum speed all the way. There's no allowance for hitting jams and no capacity to accelerate when the road is clear. Chug, chug, chug, 56mph all the way. There's one petrol station along the way (in January) - if he's fucked the journey to that point he'll buy one extra litre of fuel, just the one. If he's doing okay on consumption he'll sail right past, ignoring the sign that warns of the same roadblock ahead that has been there for 10 years. He's totally fucking incompetent. Happens every year and every year he changes the seat covers and tells us it's the best car he ever had.

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:haha:

NQ :bow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote into Google? Then you'd know, wouldn't you? It's the infamous quote that the world of football seized on to rip the piss out of the tired old fool.

And your quote is meaningless in the real world. Just words tumbling out of the old goat's lying gob, as usual. So what if he says the title is more important than his Top 4 Trophy? What can we judge by his actions? A stream of Top 4 Trophies and not a sniff of a title. And as for the CL, don't make me laugh. All your quote proves is that you ignore what Wenger does, so busy are you hanging on what he says. I called him a liar and you proved it. Thanks.

The desperation to defend the fool in the face of a decade of sorry evidence, it's the reason why this has-been has lasted so long and somehow lingers on even now. Fans hanging on the ancient past and arguing tooth and nail with those who point to the present.

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If Letters thinks he should be sacked, which he has claimed in his own words

Does it really matter which conclusions either of you come to in any real sense.

On the other hand I do think the “why do you watch it if you hate it” argument he makes is rather pointless

You may think your son is shit at the guitar and is in fact regressing, he may have a shit music tutor and the school he belongs to refuses to sack said music teacher who is old and living on past glories. But you will still listen to your sons guitar recitals even though you suspect he’s gonna hit loads of bum notes.

On the other hand because of doing other stuff and not really enjoying watching us play the last premier league match of Arsenal’s that I watched all the way through was the away game at Watford.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Perhaps you could copy and paste the quote into Google? Then you'd know, wouldn't you? It's the infamous quote that the world of football seized on to rip the piss out of the tired old fool.

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OK. I did. The full quote I found is this:

"The first trophy is to finish in the top four. And that's still possible. I believe finishing fourth is vital for us, so let's focus on that."

https://www.theguardian.com/football...l-fourth-place

Which is what you said. So fine. But note the date, Feb 2012. It was just after we'd gone out of the FA Cup, we were in the middle of a two leg tie in the CL and had been soundly beaten 4-0 in the first leg and we were 4th in the PL, miles off the top. And we had Chelsea, Newcastle (!) and Liverpool hot on our heels.

https://www.11v11.com/league-tables/...february-2012/

No actual trophies were possible at that stage of that season. So in that context the prioritisation of finishing top 4 made sense. Calling it a trophy, OK, that's a little silly. But you used that quote to make it sound like finishing top 4 is Wenger's absolute top priority. The quote I found is clearer about how he sees priorities overall. You used a quote out of context to "prove" your point, my quote shows your stance to be nonsense so you dismiss it as "meaningless". Easy to prove yourself right if you ignore or dismiss anything which shows you to be wrong.

Quote:

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The desperation to defend the fool in the face of a decade of sorry evidence, it's the reason why this has-been has lasted so long and somehow lingers on even now. Fans hanging on the ancient past and arguing tooth and nail with those who point to the present.

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It is not "defending" Wenger to say that top 4 is not his absolute top priority. It's just correcting an obviously incorrect assertion. I'd correct you if you said he's short. He isn't. That isn't defending him. It isn't laudable that he says his top priority is winning the league, that should be his priority. A more sensible discussion is how he is failing to make the best use of our considerable resources to achieve that.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I think when he signed on in 2014 and he signed Alexis I think that was a glimmer that he could spend more and go for things, even in that season he left us woefully exposed in terms of defenders. I think that and the subsequent season have shown to him that he can’t hack the modern game.
I genuinely think he signed on in 2014 because he believed he could take us forward, in 2017 it’s clearly a case of frightened to leave.

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Yes there was a window of opportunity after the 2014 cup win. The trophy drought was over, we had some new money and our rivals were in a state of flux. That was when our fabled "long term" approach was meant to come good, I certainly didn't expect to sweep all before us but to not even remotely challenge is really galling. Wenger had it easy for so long and conned us all during the process, now he's completely exposed as a bang average coach. I don't think history should be rewritten but it certainly makes me look back and think a bit differently and less dewy-eyed on his time with us.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

On the other hand I do think the “why do you watch it if you hate it” argument he makes is rather pointless

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That wasn't an argument. I wasn't arguing anything, I was just asking.
And I'm not convinced your analogy stands up, your son may be crap at guitar but you'd still feel a sense of parental pride in him having a go.
You wouldn't watch him play for 90 minutes full of rage, call him and his teacher a **** every 5 minutes and afterwards even if he actually played quite well for once kick the cat and whine about how shit he is and that his teacher should be sacked.