Would wenger ever lose 6-1 at home to spurs?

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Why do you have to swing from one extreme to the other? So if Wenger's not leading the board by the nose, he can only be their puppet! Why can't he be an employee that happens to see eye to eye with his employers? But maybe for very different reasons. Why are some people going to such extreme lengths to eliminate the board from the analysis when it comes to figuring out what has been going wrong in the last few seasons?

Somewhere along the line the board decided it was going to cash out. Wenger is the ideal manager to have in place if you want to maximise what goes into your pocket, minimise what goes into the team and still do enough to claim the club is ambitious and competitive (keep the money coming in from the fans). And that's exactly what has happened right up until this season where the continuous bleeding of quality has finally tipped us over the edge. The year after the board jumped ship, btw.

Simple question. Why can't Wenger AND the board be responsible for the shit we're in? Why is it so impossibly difficult for some to believe the people in charge are responsible for the direction the club has taken. It's like going to ridiculous lengths to explain why the drunk driver can't possibly be responsible for wrapping his car around a tree because the drunk navigator gave him a bad steer. Bullshit, this club has suffered a failure of leadership in recent years and has seen a significant downturn in its fortunes on the pitch as a result. Meanwhile, certain individuals have diverted money that could have been used to alleviate our on the field problems and spirited it out of the club in the form of a huge pay day. Has this or has this not happened? So what, you think the board ended up saying, well Wenger won't spend the money so fuck it, we'll have it all for ourselves? You think they have been forced into robbing the club? By Wenger?

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I do agree that there is some fault with the board. Most major one being that they have not fired Arsene Wenger yet. The reason why Wenger is to blame is because he as manager of AFC should want to win, he should not be happy with mediocrity. The board, I can excuse for being greedy and wanting to cash out.. I mean, which other board in ANY business is not the same? Its the same in the companies I have worked with or probably you have worked with. The board is after money- not a surprise.. AW, a football manager is after profits for the club and mediocrity- is a surprise.

Like I said earlier, the board is very greedy but I do not think they are irrational. A billionaire/millionaire would glady spend 10 million quid on a GK/CB in Jan if that meant 40% higher chance of winning the PL. These ppl have not become millionaires by chance... take the instance of defensive coach, you cannot seriously tell me that if AW wanted a defensive coach, the board would say 'no' because it would save them 500K a year!

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

But listen to what you're saying. Wenger's a shit because he does the bidding of his masters who are acceptable by comparison because every club has a bunch of cunts in charge! And this all started out weeks ago when people were speculating as to what difference, if any, it would make if Wenger was replaced. The answer is none, not in the long term at least. Not unless we got Maureen in to blow the place up. Wenger's "masters" aren't going anywhere. I'm not defending Wenger anyway. I'm saying it's pointless to try and heap all the blame on his shoulders if he's lock-step with the board and doing their bidding. That, after all, is his job. Plainly the board's job is to rob the club, why aren't you raging against them all the time? Why is Wenger getting 100% of the flak?

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Oh no, I'm not saying Wenger is shit because he does his masters bidding, he's shit because he can't teach defensive discipline or motivate the team to bounce back from defeat, but that's another story.

If the Board are utter cunts, then Wenger is right with them shoulder to shoulder. He doesn't have to back their decision to raise ticket prices. He goes as far as saying it will help us compete with the big boys. I've repeated this several times but it's worth paying attention to it, because we definitely are paying for it. He doesn’t have to be so vocal about these things and push their agenda. That's what you're failing to see. He has helped dupe the fans and he continues to do so with his crusade for financial fair play and pointing the finger at the money men. It's a distraction that covers over his failings as a manager.

I can understand him doing what’s required of him and delivering on their expectations, but Wenger goes beyond that. They give him money to spend and he returns it back with interest. This isn’t something new. He’s been doing this since Highbury and it’s part of his philosophy. He brought in an unknown kid worth £500k to replace our all-time top goal scorer. Nobody told him to that. He’s made his name off doing this and everyone kept applauding his ability to build a team on the cheap and it’s why the Board felt comfortable making this move to the Emirates. They would never have sanctioned such a move with any other manager.

I’m not venting against the Board because it’s like complaining about the nature of a snake. When it comes to football ownership, the fans aren’t at the forefront of these guys minds. It doesn’t matter whether we’ve got these old directionless fools or some dodgy oil baron pumping in money, it’s the same beast. Plus, regardless of the state of the club, I think I better manager could get more out of this team, drill defensive discipline into them and get better results on the pitch.

The owners of Blackburn seam clueless but I think the results would improve with a better coach. Newcastle have gone through torrid times with Ashley but he’s still there and they are back in the Prem and up to 4th place (not for long though). Man U have the Glazers in charge but that doesn't stop Fergie from doing his job as a coach. There are plenty of badly run football clubs but that doesn't stop a top class manager from getting the best out of his team. Wenger is getting flak for that. You can't say a change of manager wouldn't change things because the problem we have here is Wenger's philosophy. If you're going to berate the Board, you have to look at their man.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

I’m not venting against the Board because it’s like complaining about the nature of a snake. When it comes to football ownership, the fans aren’t at the forefront of these guys minds. It doesn’t matter whether we’ve got these old directionless fools or some dodgy oil baron pumping in money, it’s the same beast. Plus, regardless of the state of the club, I think I better manager could get more out of this team, drill defensive discipline into them and get better results on the pitch.

The owners of Blackburn seam clueless but I think the results would improve with a better coach. Newcastle have gone through torrid times with Ashley but he’s still there and they are back in the Prem and up to 4th place (not for long though). Man U have the Glazers in charge but that doesn't stop Fergie from doing his job as a coach. There are plenty of badly run football clubs but that doesn't stop a top class manager from getting the best out of his team. Wenger is getting flak for that. You can't say a change of manager wouldn't change things because the problem we have here is Wenger's philosophy. If you're going to berate the Board, you have to look at their man.

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:gp:

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Originally Posted by FakeYank

I do agree that there is some fault with the board. Most major one being that they have not fired Arsene Wenger yet. The reason why Wenger is to blame is because he as manager of AFC should want to win, he should not be happy with mediocrity. The board, I can excuse for being greedy and wanting to cash out.. I mean, which other board in ANY business is not the same? Its the same in the companies I have worked with or probably you have worked with. The board is after money- not a surprise.. AW, a football manager is after profits for the club and mediocrity- is a surprise.

Like I said earlier, the board is very greedy but I do not think they are irrational. A billionaire/millionaire would glady spend 10 million quid on a GK/CB in Jan if that meant 40% higher chance of winning the PL. These ppl have not become millionaires by chance... take the instance of defensive coach, you cannot seriously tell me that if AW wanted a defensive coach, the board would say 'no' because it would save them 500K a year!

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No, you're viewing business as a household shopping budget. Plus why the hell would they fire the guy who is making them all that money? And what makes you think Wenger doesn't want to win? It might be fair to say he goes about trying to win in the wrong way, but to say he doesn't want to win is silly. Yes I agree his desire for 4th place doesn't match my own desire to finish first, but at least my argument explains why 4th is so important to the club, at least I don't leave it at stating Wenger doesn't want to win. And I still don't get this bit about just accepting the board is greedy and then blaming Wenger for the lack of investment. Are you suggesting he should sign players out of his own pocket? Who are the people who are supposed to stump up the transfer budget? Why do we always make a net profit on transfers?

Yes, EXACTLY, you're right. It's crazy to think the board wouldn't kick a few extra quid in if they were serious about the team. Point is, they don't. Draw the logical conclusion from there. Is Wenger more of an accountant than a manager? I think so. Certainly he's far too worried about the wider aspects of the game that he has no real control over. Is he going to be sacked for this overzealous concern for the club's finances? Absolutely not, because the people who employ him love the fact he's a tight-wad. They love it even more when the media wanders around blaming Wenger for the lack of investment and the fans buy into it, I'm sure. Wenger and the board, a match made in heaven. Wenger wants to win in some chivalrous manner that is a hundred years out of date, he's an anachronism, an idealist. And a stubborn git who evidently can't be swayed. And this last point is the real give away, because a boss will only put up with a stubborn git if that git is stubbornly following the party line. Otherwise it's a foot up the arse out the door.

But whatever he is, Wenger is not anti-Arsenal like the board. He gives no indication he wants to see harm come to the club, whereas the board only ever give indications of fucking us over. Those scum have played their hand, they are out in the open. Who can possibly argue in their favour? We wait to see with Kroenke but all the signs so far are bad, extremely bad.

Wenger says he wants to spend in accordance with income. That's not unfair and it's even admirable. But it's also unrealistic if we want to compete. So if you are criticising Wenger for that then fair enough. But to let the board off the hook when not only have they failed to invest what we've earned in income but have stuck the money in their fucking pockets, I don't get that bit at all. I don't get how they are given a free pass on what is the fundamental reason for our demise, the failure to spend adequately at key moments. We bid for plenty of players in the summer, much bigger names than the journeymen we ended up with. But the bid was always low. And it wasn't Wenger conducting the business. He wasn't even at the club on deadline day, which is strange for a control freak who allegedly pulls all the strings. As always, who won, who lost? That's something we can answer without any doubt.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Oh no, I'm not saying Wenger is shit because he does his masters bidding, he's shit because he can't teach defensive discipline or motivate the team to bounce back from defeat, but that's another story.

If the Board are utter cunts, then Wenger is right with them shoulder to shoulder. He doesn't have to back their decision to raise ticket prices. He goes as far as saying it will help us compete with the big boys. I've repeated this several times but it's worth paying attention to it, because we definitely are paying for it. He doesn’t have to be so vocal about these things and push their agenda. That's what you're failing to see. He has helped dupe the fans and he continues to do so with his crusade for financial fair play and pointing the finger at the money men. It's a distraction that covers over his failings as a manager.

I can understand him doing what’s required of him and delivering on their expectations, but Wenger goes beyond that. They give him money to spend and he returns it back with interest. This isn’t something new. He’s been doing this since Highbury and it’s part of his philosophy. He brought in an unknown kid worth £500k to replace our all-time top goal scorer. Nobody told him to that. He’s made his name off doing this and everyone kept applauding his ability to build a team on the cheap and it’s why the Board felt comfortable making this move to the Emirates. They would never have sanctioned such a move with any other manager.

I’m not venting against the Board because it’s like complaining about the nature of a snake. When it comes to football ownership, the fans aren’t at the forefront of these guys minds. It doesn’t matter whether we’ve got these old directionless fools or some dodgy oil baron pumping in money, it’s the same beast. Plus, regardless of the state of the club, I think I better manager could get more out of this team, drill defensive discipline into them and get better results on the pitch.

The owners of Blackburn seam clueless but I think the results would improve with a better coach. Newcastle have gone through torrid times with Ashley but he’s still there and they are back in the Prem and up to 4th place (not for long though). Man U have the Glazers in charge but that doesn't stop Fergie from doing his job as a coach. There are plenty of badly run football clubs but that doesn't stop a top class manager from getting the best out of his team. Wenger is getting flak for that. You can't say a change of manager wouldn't change things because the problem we have here is Wenger's philosophy. If you're going to berate the Board, you have to look at their man.

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You're arguing two different cases and then admitting they are two different stories. I don't know why you are claiming I don't see Wenger's faults, there are a hundred posts of mine pointing them out. But here's the part I think our main disagreement hinges around:

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They give him money to spend and he returns it back with interest.

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How do you know?

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

You're arguing two different cases and then admitting they are two different stories. I don't know why you are claiming I don't see Wenger's faults, there are a hundred posts of mine pointing them out. But here's the part I think our main disagreement hinges around:



How do you know?

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Not saying you don't see his faults, your just not connecting the dots when it comes to whose misleading who about finances and how it's been done. Wenger's financial views are in line with the Boards and if we're going to accuse them of swindling the fans, you've got to look at the mouthpiece for this grand hustle.

I don't think that is what's going on here, but if that's what you believe and we know Wenger is no fool when it comes to finances, then what is he playing at?

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Originally Posted by FakeYank

The reason why Wenger is to blame is because he as manager of AFC should want to win, he should not be happy with mediocrity.

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Nothing about the way Wenger reacts to our poor performances/results suggests he's happy with mediocrity.

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Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

Nothing about the way Wenger reacts to our poor performances/results suggests he's happy with mediocrity.

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Well his reactions are one thing and then comments about viewing 4th place as a trophy, signing 'super quality' players like Chakma, Squid, Jenkinson say different stories. I'll go by what comes out of his mouth.

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Why can't Wenger AND the board be responsible for the shit we're in?

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This. This. and fucking This.

The board are to blame because they haven't got the balls to do something about a Wenger who is losing a grip on what goes on on the pitch an area Wenger has a lot to answer for.

But it does seem that the bar has been set for limited ambition apart from financial gain so we can say that if the board are showing satisfaction with what we are achieving than Wenger is safe.

So until the board grow a pair, Wenger realises that some of his ways are not getting the results the fans believe are what we should be achieving than we are stuck with two bodies fucking the club over in equal measure.

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Originally Posted by FakeYank

Well his reactions are one thing and then comments about viewing 4th place as a trophy, signing 'super quality' players like Chakma, Squid, Jenkinson say different stories. I'll go by what comes out of his mouth.

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Because it suits your tiresome agenda against him.
It's clear he cares. You can accuse him of many things legitimately, just not being bothered isn't one of them.