Random Arsenal Shit (When it's not worth starting a thread)

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

I'm not saying or have I ever said he wouldn't get criticised for our defending. You're shifting the argument somewhere else. This is about player development. Are you seriously telling me that Wenger's player development credentials weren't held up to the highest of standards? That his eye for talent wasn't considered to be above all his peers?

Lee Dixon brings up one example with defenders but if you look at his record for developing young attackers, there is no way people would have thought Wenger would fail to develop players like Ramsey, Wilshere, Ox and Walcott. Or players like Iwobi, Denilson and Vela.

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My point is the difference between saying Tony Adams worked with Ashley Cole to make him the defender he is

And Wenger couldn’t develop a player to save his life

The point I’ve continuously tried to make, is that the claim made by Lee Dixon wouldn’t have been considered controversial at the time given that defensive training was never considered one of Wengers strengths.

If however you had said at the time Wenger can take no credit for developing Henry at the time, I think that would be a different matter entirely. But when you speak to the player himself even he would challenge that.

What Wenger did personally to improve Henry, Van Persie etc who actually knows. Of course you make a valid point about his recent failure to develop players but I would also argue it’s more complicated than someone was doing it for him when it did work.

Of the players you have cited Wenger failed to improve, with the exception of Wilshere who most of his stunted career can be attributed to injury, would they have really developed better with someone else. I’m not saying they definitely wouldn’t I’m saying the jury is out.

With the best will in the world you can’t make an average player into a great one. If you look at Ramsey, he can’t trap a ball, his passing is average, he has little in the way of acceleration. Now you can argue a better coach would get the best out of him more consistently but even Ramsey at his best doesnt have the attributes of a top, top player.

The failure to get the most consistent performances from these players is most definitely his fault, the failure to turn them into top class players....were they ever that to begin with?

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Originally Posted by Letters

To be fair, Zim always takes things to the extreme. I think around 2005 or 2006 he was calling for Wenger to be sacked and was laughed out of the room.
People are now saying "Zim woz right" but the fact is we don't know what would have happened had Wenger been sacked then.

I don't think it's true to say that anything said against Wenger was ridiculed. I don't think anyone ever thought he was a master tactician.
I don't think anyone ever thought he was a brilliant defensive coach.
But sacking him 2 years after the Invincibles, I think most people would have thought that an over-reaction and premature.
It reminds me of the people whining about Ferguson when he failed to win a trophies for a few years in a row and calling for his head..

OK, it went a different way with Ferguson, but the point is it's always easy to look back with 20:20 hindsight and declare those who said a certain thing as wise seers.
The fact is if you keep a consistent opinion about something in an area like football where fortunes can fluctuate you'll probably end up being "right" eventually.

Interestingly, now it really has gone the opposite of the way you say it was (which, as discussed, I'm not sure it ever was quite like that).
You genuinely cannot say the slightest positive thing about Wenger on here without being chased down the road with pichforks and people (deliberately) misunderstanding you and claiming you support Wenger to the hilt.
All rather tiresome.

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That was just a quick example off the top of my head.

But back when Adams was in the team and playing well alongside Cole, it would have been Wenger that was lauded for his influence on Cole not Adams and anyone who tried to suggest otherwise would have been laughed at.

That is a fact.

You cant develop players by NOT instructing them, which by all accounts is what Wenger does. The evidence is there that the earlier players developed through Osmosis simply by playing with good players and imbibing their drive and heart.

take boxers for instance. What levels would Mike tyson have reached if his mentor Cus D`Amato hadnt died when he was barely out of his teens. maybe Bruno could have won a world title if someone had told him how to move his head and feet.

The fact that someone was once sucessful does not actuallyy mean they were really good at what they were succesful at

Michael Bay is a shit director, even though he has made some successful films. His output has been toxic for the last 10 years

What have the Wachowski brothers/sisters done since the first Matrix?. Even the sequels were shit.

Sometimes the times just fit. If you are the real deal they will continue to align.

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Originally Posted by Aubameyang's Wang

That was just a quick example off the top of my head.

But back when Adams was in the team and playing well alongside Cole, it would have been Wenger that was lauded for his influence on Cole not Adams and anyone who tried to suggest otherwise would have been laughed at.

That is a fact.

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No it’s a claim

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Why do you lot even bother with replying Letters. 2 seasons ago if you told him we`d drop out of the top 4 he would cry "behave". Now he conveniently forgets that what was predicted is now our existing and foreseeable reality.
I predict he will have us close to relegation next season,. Its inevitable because we are on current form one of the worst teams in the league. Next season there is not a player in the world who could save us (a la Sanchez) who would want to come here. He wont train the players any differently or organise them any differently. What is the inevitable result when every team around us is improving. We cant even get a draw against Brighton now.! We have 9 games to go til the end of this season. Can anyone honestly see us winning even 3. Forget the Europa. That is a pipe dream.

Arguing with Letters over Wenger is like trying to convince your Nan that the 2010s are better than the 1970s. Not a chance in the world. As for Herbert. only a psychiatrist knows what his problem is. He agrees that Wenger is not a good manager, but wasnt always so........ Who really gives a fk.

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:haha:

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Originally Posted by HCZ

No it’s a claim

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It is a claim, but I think it's fairly likely to be true.
But, again, it depends how it was framed. If it was stated that Adams was assisting with Cole's development then I don't think that would have been controversial. If the claim was he was solely responsible for it then I think that would have been challenged.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

You cant develop players by NOT instructing them, which by all accounts is what Wenger does. The evidence is there that the earlier players developed through Osmosis simply by playing with good players and imbibing their drive and heart.

take boxers for instance. What levels would Mike tyson have reached if his mentor Cus D`Amato hadnt died when he was barely out of his teens. maybe Bruno could have won a world title if someone had told him how to move his head and feet.

The fact that someone was once sucessful does not actuallyy mean they were really good at what they were succesful at

Michael Bay is a shit director, even though he has made some successful films. His output has been toxic for the last 10 years

What have the Wachowski brothers/sisters done since the first Matrix?. Even the sequels were shit.

Sometimes the times just fit. If you are the real deal they will continue to align.

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Not totally unfair (even the first Matrix was overrated)

And I don’t think anyone would think it unfair that in the final analysis Wenger was of his time

However, Henry didn’t convert from a winger to a striker because of a prophetic dream. How much Wenger micromanaged that transition who knows, considering his laissez faire attitude I doubt he would have broken it down to the basic constituents of his game no.

Would he have encouraged him to do things he saw from him on the pitch that thought would make him a good striker....that sounds more plausible

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Originally Posted by HCZ

My point is the difference between saying Tony Adams worked with Ashley Cole to make him the defender he is

And Wenger couldn’t develop a player to save his life

The point I’ve continuously tried to make, is that the claim made by Lee Dixon wouldn’t have been considered controversial at the time given that defensive training was never considered one of Wengers strengths.

If however you had said at the time Wenger can take no credit for developing Henry at the time, I think that would be a different matter entirely. But when you speak to the player himself even he would challenge that.

What Wenger did personally to improve Henry, Van Persie etc who actually knows. Of course you make a valid point about his recent failure to develop players but I would also argue it’s more complicated than someone was doing it for him when it did work.

Of the players you have cited Wenger failed to improve, with the exception of Wilshere who most of his stunted career can be attributed to injury, would they have really developed better with someone else. I’m not saying they definitely wouldn’t I’m saying the jury is out.

With the best will in the world you can’t make an average player into a great one. If you look at Ramsey, he can’t trap a ball, his passing is average, he has little in the way of acceleration. Now you can argue a better coach would get the best out of him more consistently but even Ramsey at his best doesnt have the attributes of a top, top player.

The failure to get the most consistent performances from these players is most definitely his fault, the failure to turn them into top class players....were they ever that to begin with?

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All true but that's still missing the point about the belief from fans that Wenger could turn anyone into the next Henry. The expectation level for Theo Walcott was high. Had zero to do with Theo's ability as a player. The belief that Theo was the next big thing came from Wenger's reputation and his seal of approval. The general consensus was that if Wenger was interested in signing you, you were on your way to becoming a superstar.

This is getting long. Again, to argue otherwise is what I would call revising history. I think I'm done for the day.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Why do you lot even bother with replying Letters. 2 seasons ago if you told him we`d drop out of the top 4 he would cry "behave". Now he conveniently forgets that what was predicted is now our existing and foreseeable reality.
I predict he will have us close to relegation next season,. Its inevitable because we are on current form one of the worst teams in the league. Next season there is not a player in the world who could save us (a la Sanchez) who would want to come here. He wont train the players any differently or organise them any differently. What is the inevitable result when every team around us is improving. We cant even get a draw against Brighton now.! We have 9 games to go til the end of this season. Can anyone honestly see us winning even 3. Forget the Europa. That is a pipe dream.

Arguing with Letters over Wenger is like trying to convince your Nan that the 2010s are better than the 1970s. Not a chance in the world. As for Herbert. only a psychiatrist knows what his problem is. He agrees that Wenger is not a good manager, but wasnt always so........ Who really gives a fk.

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Well apparently it matters a lot to people here

My argument is born out of not seeing things in a binary way

If I believed Wenger was always terrible I’d say so, I don’t have any emotional attachment to him, the guy is being a total cunt and even if he wasn’t I wouldn’t feel the need to protect him.

I just think it’s a bit overly simplistic as simplistic as the cult of Wenger swivell eyed loons

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

All true but that's still missing the point about the belief from fans that Wenger could turn anyone into the next Henry. The expectation level for Theo Walcott was high. Had zero to do with Theo's ability as a player. The belief that Theo was the next big thing came from Wenger's reputation and his seal of approval. The general consensus was that if Wenger was interested in signing you, you were on your way to becoming a superstar.

This is getting long. Again, to argue otherwise is what I would call revising history. I think I'm done for the day.

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If you are arguing that because of Henry the assumption was that he’d do the same with Walcott you’ll get no argument from me at all.

I wouldn’t even try to deny that. I wasn’t ever fully convinced that he was going to be quite as good as Henry but no doubt I thought he’d be better than he turned out to be