FA Cup thread 2013/14

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

Who?

Nobody. That's who.

---

Did you talk about how unfair it was on other clubs before Chelsea showed up? I doubt it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

Did you talk about how unfair it was on other clubs before Chelsea showed up? I doubt it.

---

Yes.

Lots of other people did too.

There was report after report of small clubs going under because the TV revenue was not feeding down from the top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

Yes.

Lots of other people did too.

There was report after report of small clubs going under because the TV revenue was not feeding down from the top.

---

Hard to believe, but even if you did I would suggest you were the exception, I certainly didn't complain about it.

Sure there was stuff in the press but the fans of the bigger clubs really didn't give a toss. It only matters when it affects you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

Get out :lol:

Even gooners are buying into it.

Ther reason we are where we are, is that the people that run our club (like them or loathe them) have made very astute decisions over a long period of time. We breed it. We make it essential that we do things properly, cleverly and with a touch of class.

Any other club in the world could have signed arsene wenger as manager before we did.

Other clubs have not made clever decisions. Just looks at Spurs.

The playing field has never been level, simply because more fans have chosesn to support certian clubs rather than others, but in terms of the top tier or professional football, any club with a good business leader, cultered thinkers, PROPER knowledge of the game throughout their hiarachy cohld have done the same as us.

But you constantly see sides who think that signing Harry Redknapp or Mark Hughes is a good way to run a club. These people are just stupid. It has nothing to do with money at all!

---

Agree with a lot of that but also have to agree with hobson's choice. Yes, there have always been haves and have nots but the gap between them has increased exponentially in the Sky era with the huge increases in TV money and the CL expanding to keep a little group of teams at the top of each league which is very hard to break into. Without a huge injection of money I don't see how any team can get up there these days. Prudent management isn't enough any more IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

Hard to believe, but even if you did I would suggest you were the exception, I certainly didn't complain about it.

Sure there was stuff in the press but the fans of the bigger clubs really didn't give a toss. It only matters when it affects you.

---

It only matters when the gap between the haves and have nots is so big that the only way of hoping to get up there is to have a huge injection of money.
That has only been so relatively recently in the context of the whole history of football.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Agree with a lot of that but also have to agree with hobson's choice. Yes, there have always been haves and have nots but the gap between them has increased exponentially in the Sky era with the huge increases in TV money and the CL expanding to keep a little group of teams at the top of each league which is very hard to break into. Without a huge injection of money I don't see how any team can get up there these days. Prudent management isn't enough any more IMO.

---

I agree with you, whilst oil money is unfair, the gap between big clubs and small clubs was growing way before they came along and that was my point really (not that the companies with big benefactors are doing it fairly).

Nowadays though you kinda have to accept that's the way it is, let's face it it's not going to change so you just have to get on with it and compete anyway you can, I think it's possible as we're showing and Man U have for years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

Hard to believe, but even if you did I would suggest you were the exception, I certainly didn't complain about it.

Sure there was stuff in the press but the fans of the bigger clubs really didn't give a toss. It only matters when it affects you.

---

I wouldn't expect you to care about it, as it's quite obvious you have no affection for football in its purest sense. You're happy to let artificially inseminted clubs like City and Chelsea waltz around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

It only matters when the gap between the haves and have nots is so big that the only way of hoping to get up there is to have a huge injection of money.
That has only been so relatively recently in the context of the whole history of football.

---

That's true, but I think it was before Chelsea showed up, Leeds tried to do it and did to some extent (then it went wrong for them), Blackburn did it, look at who has won the PL since SKY turned up and who has generally been towards the top, it was mostly the same teams.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

I wouldn't expect you to care about it, as it's quite obvious you have no affection for football in its purest sense. You're happy to let artificially inseminted clubs like City and Chelsea waltz around.

---

No I'm realistic enough to realise it's not going to change (otherwise it would have by now), you seem to live up in the clouds where you think if you complain about it and belittle their achievements it will make the slightest bit of difference. It won't.

At some point you just have to accept it is what it is and get on with it, I'm not interested in the financial side, I'm interested in what happens on the pitch and how we develop our squad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

No I'm realistic enough to realise it's not going to change (otherwise it would have by now), you seem to live up in the clouds where you think if you complain about it and belittle their achievements it will make the slightest bit of difference. It won't.

---

No, it won't. But I'm not going to coo over what a good side they are.
Give me a billion quid and I'll build you a good side.

It's possible to compete to an extent but we will need to be lucky with injuries to sustain this challenge. Clubs like City and Chelsea can throw enough money around to build such big squads that injuries aren't really a factor. If your striker gets injured you can just pull enough £30m signing off the bench. For all our resources we can't do that.
Utd competed only because of the brilliance of Fergie - and they have plenty of money too of course. Without him...well, struggling would be pushing it but Spurs are above them, that's all you need to say about that.

It is just the way it is though and until any sensible measures are put in place to stop clubs living beyond their means and distribute the money through the game more evenly (something none of the top clubs will want as it will affect them most), that's the way it'll always be.

I just downloaded Angry Birds.

Paid 30 quid to unlock all the levels.

I'm ever so good at Angry Birds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sterling Archer

I just downloaded Angry Birds.

Paid 30 quid to unlock all the levels.

I'm ever so good at Angry Birds.

---

Did I tell you about that time I bought a degree off the internet?
I'm ever so clever, me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Did I tell you about that time I bought a degree off the internet?
I'm ever so clever, me.

---

Well there's just no other way to get a degree these days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

No, it won't. But I'm not going to coo over what a good side they are.
Give me a billion quid and I'll build you a good side.

It's possible to compete to an extent but we will need to be lucky with injuries to sustain this challenge. Clubs like City and Chelsea can throw enough money around to build such big squads that injuries aren't really a factor. If your striker gets injured you can just pull enough £30m signing off the bench. For all our resources we can't do that.
Utd competed only because of the brilliance of Fergie - and they have plenty of money too of course. Without him...well, struggling would be pushing it but Spurs are above them, that's all you need to say about that.

It is just the way it is though and until any sensible measures are put in place to stop clubs living beyond their means and distribute the money through the game more evenly (something none of the top clubs will want as it will affect them most), that's the way it'll always be.

---

But from a purely football point of view they are a good side, they do play good football and win a lot of games, that's not solely down to money it takes good management as well otherwise any Tom, Dick or Harry would win with them and they don't. Let's not forget we use to play football like this and win (and did in the FA Cup against Spurs interestingly).

I think it's possible, IMO we have filled our squad with a lot of players who are very susceptible to injuries which doesn't help our cause, we also don't seem to be proactive enough, if we don't sign a striker this January it will be an example of this (though I hope we do and that things have changed).

I don't think you need 30 million pound signings on your bench, if you're clever you can pick up quality players for much less (Negredo being one example), it's not as simple as going out and spending 40 million on someone all the time, whilst it's great if you can there are other ways to skin a cat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sterling Archer

I just downloaded Angry Birds.

Paid 30 quid to unlock all the levels.

I'm ever so good at Angry Birds.

---

Well no because you haven't completed all the levels, what a strange analogy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

Well no because you haven't completed all the levels, what a strange analogy.

---

A better analogy would be getting through Candy Crush by buying boosters for every level to make it much easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

But from a purely football point of view they are a good side, they do play good football and win a lot of games, that's not solely down to money it takes good management as well otherwise any Tom, Dick or Harry would win with them and they don't.

---

OK. And how do you get a top manager?
HINT: Big salary...

Only losers play candy crush

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

No I'm realistic enough to realise it's not going to change (otherwise it would have by now), you seem to live up in the clouds where you think if you complain about it and belittle their achievements it will make the slightest bit of difference. It won't.

At some point you just have to accept it is what it is and get on with it, I'm not interested in the financial side, I'm interested in what happens on the pitch and how we develop our squad.

---

I'm not living up in the clouds at all. All I'm saying, quite rightly, is that any achievement is shallow, given that it is akin to steroids in athletics.

Yes, there has never been a level playing field, but at least we kicked ourselves up the table by playing football, and earnt our rewards that way, rather than having the money first and then buying the rewards.

I do accept that it is part of the game. I don't have to agree with it. And I can certainly complain about it if I feel it is corrupt (which it is). But I actually take pleasure in the fact that we're giving them a run for their money (pardon the pun), without those luxurys. Ultimately, we will never win though, because we can't have 100 million quids worth of strikers sat on the bench....

You can praise their achievements in that respect if you wish, but I think that's pretty shallow in itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

A better analogy would be getting through Candy Crush by buying boosters for every level to make it much easier.

---

That's a better one yes, although you could argue that you're buying boosters because clubs before that were already cheating, you just found a better way of cheating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

OK. And how do you get a top manager?
HINT: Big salary...

---

Yes but aren't you highlighting the point here, without an injection of money you have no hope of every bridging the gap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

Yes but aren't you highlighting the point here, without an injection of money you have no hope of every bridging the gap.

---

That is one of my points, you just said it wasn't solely down to the money but it is. It all comes back to the money one way or another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

I'm not living up in the clouds at all. All I'm saying, quite rightly, is that any achievement is shallow, given that it is akin to steroids in athletics.

Yes, there has never been a level playing field, but at least we kicked ourselves up the table by playing football, and earnt our rewards that way, rather than having the money first and then buying the rewards.

I do accept that it is part of the game. I don't have to agree with it. And I can certainly complain about it if I feel it is corrupt (which it is). But I actually take pleasure in the fact that we're giving them a run for their money (pardon the pun), without those luxurys. Ultimately, we will never win though, because we can't have 100 million quids worth of strikers sat on the bench....

You can praise their achievements in that respect if you wish, but I think that's pretty shallow in itself.

---

I'd liken it to someone taking steroids because they wanted to beat the people who were winning using better equipment only available to them.

To an extent yes we did, but we've had plenty of influence on how the game should be run being in the group of large clubs who made the decisions.

You can complain about it of course, but ultimately it won't really belittle their achievements because history will only show how successful they have been not how much monety they've spent. You'll also find most of the people you see talking about them still praise their achievements because they look at it from the point of view of what's happening on the pitch, which is the way I prefer to look at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

That is one of my points, you just said it wasn't solely down to the money but it is. It all comes back to the money one way or another.

---

When I said it wasn't solely about money, what I meant was that you can't just given someone x amount and then expect them to win, the person you employ still needs to be very good at what they are doing, I appreciate top managers do cost money, although theoretically it's possible to find managers to do a job who aren't as high profile, Di Matteo at Chelsea (though he didn't last long).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

You'll also find most of the people you see talking about them still praise their achievements because they look at it from the point of view of what's happening on the pitch, which is the way I prefer to look at it.

---

Most pundits do seem to praise them, it's true. I find it baffling tbh.
I don't regard them winning the league, or any other trophy, as an 'achievement'.
Whatever the history books may say we all know how they're doing what they're doing and they deserve zero credit.
Any decent book wouldn't just be a list of records, it would provide some context and therefore mention the money anyway.

They're listening :o

:ninja:

http://news.arseblog.com/2014/01/fox...edium=facebook

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

So why do you moan your tits off and call Wenger every name under the sun when we finish below them?

---

Because there are some obvious things which he hasnt done in past seasons. 'Things' which wouldnt have cost a dime most of the times or even if they did, it wouldnt have been something that'd have killed us as a club. I have mentioned these before and I'll give a quick highlight:
- Playing players in their best positions. Ex: Diaby on left, Eduardo and Bendtner on the wings, Kos on the right etc
- Working on the defense. In particular, dead ball situations. We have drastically improved this season but lets not forget 7 seasons of horror
- Investing a lot of time and effort into crocks and AW's love childs. Ex: Diaby, Rosicky, Almunia
- Not investing the extra 1 or 2 million quid on a player that wouldve changed our team from challengers to champions. Ex: Alonso, Schwarzer
- Waiting pretty much every transfer window till the last minute to buy players and then give the usual excuses "Waiting period", "It takes a player six months to get used to English conditions"
- Not keeping a hold of experienced players. Yes, they might have lost that extra pace on the field but what they can offer in the dressing room is priceless. Ex: Lauren, Gilberto, Vieira, Pires and very soon, likely to be Sagna.

Like NQ had said, these mega rich clubs are failing too despite their huge investments. Its up to us to make sure we grab any and every opportunity we get to capitalize on their weaknesses. If we do not sign a striker this window, that'd be one of those opportunities I'm talking about. And no, I am not putting forward unrealistic names like Reuss and Costa. Let's just get Berba to have a sure fire and decent backup. Let's not fuck up our very good position in the league. Do I think AW will do anything about it? Highly unlikely...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...

What you say might be true (I don't think lamenting of there being no other way is why the owners spend this money personally) however talking about how it's the only way to compete sounds a bit misguided in somehow protecting them when clubs a la Man City and Chelsea do become the institution. Then what? Is it any easier for other clubs to compete with them than it was competing with the other clubs beforehand? I'd say not.

What you say above - it's the only way, really means the death of good management and planning. It's probably also why those lower clubs you mention take on any owner, regardless of what they may eventually want or do with the club (see Cardiff and Hull) start chasing a dream and end up in a far worse state than they were before but it will be justified because they manage to attain some short term success (in this case promotion) and the fans are supposed to be grateful forevermore of those short few seasons of success.

---

A good example is Sevilla. they've done it the "right" way, and they've had some success, even got very close to winning a title. Look at them now, just another mid table team battling for scraps. Because every season they have to sell their best players, or possibly lose a manager to a bigger and better job. They have a good academy, good scouting network. but it's hard to consistently produce good players from your academy. And in this day, no matter how good your scouting is, it ain't easy getting diamonds in the rough, like they used to.

A huge cash injection is the only way for small clubs with big dreams, because cash is the only way you can retain quality. You can plan, hire a great manager, have a great academy. But what does mean when Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Liverpool, United come calling.

Is not about being able to buy, it's about being able to retain , that's what big cash gets you. Which is what small clubs can't do

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

Get out :lol:

Even gooners are buying into it.

Ther reason we are where we are, is that the people that run our club (like them or loathe them) have made very astute decisions over a long period of time. We breed it. We make it essential that we do things properly, cleverly and with a touch of class.

Any other club in the world could have signed arsene wenger as manager before we did.

Other clubs have not made clever decisions. Just looks at Spurs.

The playing field has never been level, simply because more fans have chosesn to support certian clubs rather than others, but in terms of the top tier or professional football, any club with a good business leader, cultered thinkers, PROPER knowledge of the game throughout their hiarachy cohld have done the same as us.

But you constantly see sides who think that signing Harry Redknapp or Mark Hughes is a good way to run a club. These people are just stupid. It has nothing to do with money at all!

---

What are you smoking, and can I get some of that please. I understand where you are coming from, but it's just not reality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hobson's choice

A good example is Sevilla. they've done it the "right" way, and they've had some success, even got very close to winning a title. Look at them now, just another mid table team battling for scraps. Because every season they have to sell their best players, or possibly lose a manager to a bigger and better job. They have a good academy, good scouting network. but it's hard to consistently produce good players from your academy. And in this day, no matter how good your scouting is, it ain't easy getting diamonds in the rough, like they used to.

A huge cash injection is the only way for small clubs with big dreams, because cash is the only way you can retain quality. You can plan, hire a great manager, have a great academy. But what does mean when Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Liverpool, United come calling.

Is not about being able to buy, it's about being able to retain , that's what big cash gets you. Which is what small clubs can't do

---

FFP was meant to help, but the games is run by crooks. A start would be to get rid of the crooks and introduce some sort of a system that penalises clubs who run up huge losses whilst having huge wage bills. Current FFP locks the bigger clubs to the top and locks the smaller clubs out, should be the other way around. Get the corruption that apparently doesn't exist out of the game.

And have proper tests for club ownership, look at city's last two owners. Human rights abusers, given a free pass because they have loads of cash. Same with the thieving oligarchs. Get these bastards out of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hobson's choice

A good example is Sevilla. they've done it the "right" way, and they've had some success, even got very close to winning a title. Look at them now, just another mid table team battling for scraps. Because every season they have to sell their best players, or possibly lose a manager to a bigger and better job. They have a good academy, good scouting network. but it's hard to consistently produce good players from your academy. And in this day, no matter how good your scouting is, it ain't easy getting diamonds in the rough, like they used to.

A huge cash injection is the only way for small clubs with big dreams, because cash is the only way you can retain quality. You can plan, hire a great manager, have a great academy. But what does mean when Real Madrid, Barca, Bayern, Liverpool, United come calling.

Is not about being able to buy, it's about being able to retain , that's what big cash gets you. Which is what small clubs can't do

---

Sevilla are like many other La Liga clubs that ran their club pretty poorly and racking up a huge debt in the process - it doesn't help that they had a now proven crook like Del Nido as their president for many years. Sure they could be better helped if Barcelona and Real Madrid were willing to have a more favourable TV rights model but some of the clubs you are referring don't help themselves - Valencia are another. Started building a new stadium without having the finances in place which is just absolutely boneheaded.

It's also not really accurate that Sevilla had a good scouting network or in the sense that they brought through numerous young players - of course there is the Puerta tragedy and Jesus Navas recently being sold but most of their players from that era you mentioned were bought from elsewhere (Luis Fabiano, Kanoute, Javi Navarro for instance). You could perhaps include Dani Alves given he was fairly young when they signed him.

In direct countering to what you say: what about teams like Getafe, or most pertinently Malaga? Teams that sought out the wonderful model to follow of Man City and it looked great for a while but they got the wrong owners from the Middle East, they got an owner that quickly realised how much he had to spend in order to even come slightly close to winning anything, lost interest, the club subsequently get suspended from European competition due to not being able to support themselves away from having that previous investment and have now lost a huge amount of talent they had before due to following that path.

Poor old Getafe thought they had brought in a multi-billionaire owner but they hadn't, he never existed! :lol:

Ultimately a lot of it comes back to the financial parachutes that would arrive from a better TV deal but I don't think you can just point to a club and say this is why they need to give in, sell out and let an owner flash with them money. Like anything else, there is still risk attached, even if it might take some time to show itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

And have proper tests for club ownership, look at city's last two owners. Human rights abusers, given a free pass because they have loads of cash. Same with the thieving oligarchs. Get these bastards out of the game.

---

Football is a business, when someone sells a business they don't have to do anything like that, why would they in football? At the end of the day the clubs are privately own and thus they can be sold to whoever the owner(s) want.

If you had a business and someone offered you 3 million for it but had a great track record and was a nice guy and some businessman with a more questionnable past offered you 6 million would you sell to the guy who was nicer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

Football is a business, when someone sells a business they don't have to do anything like that, why would they in football? At the end of the day the clubs are privately own and thus they can be sold to whoever the owner(s) want.

If you had a business and someone offered you 3 million for it but had a great track record and was a nice guy and some businessman with a more questionnable past offered you 6 million would you sell to the guy who was nicer?

---

So it's right that bankrupts can't run a business but human rights abusers and slave traffickers can? The only standard should be financial?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

So it's right that bankrupts can't run a business but human rights abusers and slave traffickers can? The only standard should be financial?

---

I didn't say it's right, but that's the way it works in the real world yes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...

Sevilla are like many other La Liga clubs that ran their club pretty poorly and racking up a huge debt in the process - it doesn't help that they had a now proven crook like Del Nido as their president for many years. Sure they could be better helped if Barcelona and Real Madrid were willing to have a more favourable TV rights model but some of the clubs you are referring don't help themselves - Valencia are another. Started building a new stadium without having the finances in place which is just absolutely boneheaded.

It's also not really accurate that Sevilla had a good scouting network or in the sense that they brought through numerous young players - of course there is the Puerta tragedy and Jesus Navas recently being sold but most of their players from that era you mentioned were bought from elsewhere (Luis Fabiano, Kanoute, Javi Navarro for instance). You could perhaps include Dani Alves given he was fairly young when they signed him.

In direct countering to what you say: what about teams like Getafe, or most pertinently Malaga? Teams that sought out the wonderful model to follow of Man City and it looked great for a while but they got the wrong owners from the Middle East, they got an owner that quickly realised how much he had to spend in order to even come slightly close to winning anything, lost interest, the club subsequently get suspended from European competition due to not being able to support themselves away from having that previous investment and have now lost a huge amount of talent they had before due to following that path.

Poor old Getafe thought they had brought in a multi-billionaire owner but they hadn't, he never existed! :lol:

Ultimately a lot of it comes back to the financial parachutes that would arrive from a better TV deal but I don't think you can just point to a club and say this is why they need to give in, sell out and let an owner flash with them money. Like anything else, there is still risk attached, even if it might take some time to show itself.

---

I hope we don't get them in the next round of the FA Cup :good:

:lol:

Well, Coventry are another example I suppose. If we have a replay it'll be in Northampton. :rolleyes:

FA Cup Fourth Round

Friday, 24th January
Arsenal v Coventry, 19:45 http://i44.tinypic.com/5bpl5u.png
Nottm Forest v Preston, 20:00

Saturday, 25th January
Bournemouth v Liverpool, 12:45 ITV1
Birmingham v Swansea, 15:00
Bolton v Cardiff, 15:00
Huddersfield v Charlton, 15:00
Man City v Watford, 15:00
Port Vale v Brighton, 15:00
Rochdale v Sheff Wed, 15:00
Southampton v Yeovil, 15:00
Southend v Hull, 15:00
Sunderland v Kidderminster, 15:00
Wigan v Crystal Palace, 15:00
Stevenage v Everton, 17:30 http://i44.tinypic.com/5bpl5u.png

Sunday, 26th January
Sheff Utd v Fulham, 13:00 http://i44.tinypic.com/5bpl5u.png
Chelsea v Stoke, 15:30 ITV1

Nottm Forest: Darlow, Jara, Halford, Collins, Lichaj, Majewski, Vaughan, Reid, Mackie, Cox, Paterson.
Subs: Harding, Moussi, Henderson, Lascelles, Derbyshire, De Vries, Abdoun.

Preston: Rudd, Wiseman, Clarke, Wright, Buchanan, Brownhill, Welsh, Kilkenny, Humphrey, Garner, Gallagher.
Subs: Stuckmann, Keane, Laird, Beavon, Holmes, King, Hume.

Referee: Mike Dean (Wirral)

Still 0-0. :sleep: