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Of course because we won the FA Cup. A write-off is when you throw something in the bin because zero value remains. Unless the FA Cup is perceived as having no value whatsoever then winning it means the season wasn't a write-off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We didn't move to the Emirates in order to win the FA cup once every decade.
We were winning titles & reaching C.L. semi's & finals whilst playing great football, the move was to enable us to build on this a become a European super power.
Now, we play shit football & have for a few years now, we don't get compete to win our own league, wank ourselves silly over 4th place & now acknowledge that finishing 2nd in our C.L. qualifying group gets us a good raping from one of the actual European super powers. Were we not supposed to be on of them by now. And those of us with season tickets pay more than any of the supporters of the top teams that we're supposed to be as good as.
But, never mind - we won the FA cup.
Agreed, but if you're going to beat Wenger with the stick of not having won a trophy in 'n' years then it's a bit rich to then dismiss it out of hand when we do finally win one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
The FA Cup has been devalued by the CL but it's still a major trophy.
The move was clearly needed but quite a few factors have conspired to mean it hasn't pushed us on as it might. You can argue Wenger is one of them, but you could also argue he did well to keep us 'up there' during the move. The billionaires sticking their nose in distorted the market, the commercial deals we had were good at the time but as things have spiralled ridiculously in terms of sponsorship deals we were stuck into them. That was arguably a wrong decision to tie ourselves in to long term deals but it was an understandable one given it ensured us the money to make the stadium repayments.
Now those deals are over we should have the resources to compete more seriously, the Ozil and Sanchez deals are signs of that. I think we all agree Wenger isn't the right person to push us on but he'll leave us in pretty good shape when he goes.
All fair enough points that I agree with. We're all pissed with the set up and return at Arsenal right now. But that doesn't make it legitimate to throw out the few positives as if they mean nothing. The point was not to win just the FA Cup, but we won it and that has at least some value if not all the value we wanted. Signing Alexis was a big positive too. And Chambers. But true enough, a club this size and a club that expects so much of the fans needs to be achieving more. Wenger will pay in the end if that doesn't happen. Nobody is immune and nobody can miss expectations forever without having to pay the consequences eventually. With Wenger it will be his legacy that's tarnished or even lost if he can't step up his game now there are resources available and the excuses have run out. The FA Cup was always seen as a kicking off point, not a culmination. We are fresh into a new season so the cup win still counts, but it won't count for much at the end of this season if we haven't pushed on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
You're still on this Wenger must do this Wenger must do that crap. I'm sorry, that ship has sailed?. Wenger is the problem, his legacy is already tainted. The FA cup was nice but as we can already see it was a blip. We are not building on it and we won't. The only question is if we will be forced to endure another 2 seasons of his intransigence and inanities. I hope notQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Well who else is going to do it if not Wenger? The board has already backed him unequivocally. He's delivering precisely what they want - revenues and a share price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
You can explain it to you're blue in the face some people just refuse to accept this very simple premiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
You'd think the previous AGM was definitive proof if any were needed
Wenger is consistently delivering on a comparatively modest budget the results that allow the massive revenue streams, and that to the people that matter make him worth his salary and overlook his glaring deficiencies as a manager that are unlikely to be rectified by a man of his age.
So the only choice is to back the manager and ride out the groundhog season until 2017
The problem is not the Arsenal board. It is this board. Do you think any of the Wenger doubters is under the delusion that we are speaking to the Arsenal board. The people who need convincing are the fans and we speak to them as we speak to you who deflect these arguments. Before Wenger signed the last contract we told you that this was a road to nowhere. You same people said no. He deserves another chance, he has money now. It's as if you want to pretend that this never happened and Wenger is just now showing signs of megalomania and delusion. At the end of 2017, the same people will find arguments for him to stay, basically, saying he's meeting the boards objectives so fans opinions don't count.
The board here is for fans....I cannot believe that any true fan can want this man to stay. What rational argument can any fan have to continue this perpetuation of stagnation
No i just deal in reality not hypothetical bubblesQuote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Wenger should have gone last season, he didn't and as we are Arsenal fans and whether we like it or not he's the manager it's counter intuitive not to back him.
Either that or boycott the club until 2017
i know it wont happen but he should be sacked today, there's absolutely no more mileage in this guy
No, lets see what he can waste in the transfer window and judge him at the end of the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw
:haha:
:haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw
He has to resign. If he could have kept us at the level we were at last season, fair enough. But we've fallen off another cliff and I'm not even sure we've hit the bottom yet. He has to resign. There's no excusing a home performance like that. We may well have handed the 4th place trophy to Utd today, without putting up the slightest fight. At home. There's no sign whatsoever of improvement. Under these circumstances the manager has to go. He has to resign.
we know wumget will shake it off and keep his cheques for nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Please leave at the end of the season Wenger, because we all know the board won't do anything
Only way I could see him resigning is if we don't finish 4th. Once he can't bring up the "x amount of consecutive years in the CL" stat then he's essentially finished because it opens him up to a new wave of criticism not heard before.
Problem is its a double edged sword, even if Wenger did leave if we finished outside the top four (no evidence suggests to me he would or the board would push him) We would be in a mass exodus situation with a lot of our players (I don't think there is any question that what we have are good players who are being coached abysmally) using Wengers going and the lack of champions league football to find a new club, which could massively destabilise us for years.
The ideal solution would be for Wenger to acknowledge he's not capable of getting the required standard from these players and hand over the reigns to Steve Bould, and for once I don't mean at the end of the season.
I actually think today was a worse humiliation than the 8-2 game, we had the personnel and the territorial dominance to obliterate this Man Utd side, De Gea was the best player on the pitch but he made no saves that he wouldn't have been expected to save, in fact if you wanted to be critical he was beaten too easily by Giroud at his near post.
A dreadful Man United side gifted three points, a Man United side that didnt even get a shot on target until the 84th minute, a Man United side who didnt seem for the first thirty minutes to be able to keep its shape or even understand the formation it was playing.
It doesn't get any easier, Dortmund next and then fixtures in December against Stoke, Southampton, Liverpool and West Ham....and you have to rely on the same back four and hope that none of them break down in that period.
Just admit its beyond you Mr Wenger, you are 65 now and the game has left you behind.
Whether the game has left him behind or not, what's contemporary about a cross or a corner? These are the age old basics of the game and we can't do them. We can't shoot either, preferring to pass when the shot is on, and shoot when there's fuck all chance of the ball going in the net. Couldn't any old fool suggest we're better off moving the ball towards the opponent's goal rather than our own? Couldn't the village idiot figure out which team he's on and then pass to them rather than the opposition? What makes this myths that we are a wildly entertaining, free flowing, passing machine persist? Have the fans been duped into watching one game while everyone else watches the real match elsewhere? What are they seeing that we can't see? We can't pass, cross, shoot, defend and we have no drive, energy, tempo or a hint of ambition. You don't need a modern day maestro to figure it out, even an old has-been should get an inkling when he sees the shit being spread in front of him week after week. I have my doubts about Bould too. If he's sitting there being a yes man then those aren't the credentials we want in a manager. But if he's an active part of this then WTF?
My theory on Bould is that he clearly wants Wengers job, I am actually convinced that he has been offered it by Gazidis as well.
And as bad as things are I don't think Bould thinks they have got bad enough to rock the boat
Along with the board, he knows that as long as there is champions
League football he has a platform on which to build.
In his first season he did start bollocking Wenger in the dug out
And I think the defensive solidity between March and May 2013 was his doing
This isn't a Wenger defence post. I think, like many, that he should leave. He perhaps should have left, or been asked serious questions about his tenure, in 2006 after an abysmal title challenge. A victim of his own success (we all are, no matter what line of work we're in), the employers are the ones who should be questioning him as to why he is underperforming.
I'm sure he loves the club. He isn't a mercenary. Yes, he has an extortionate wage packet, but I'm certain that the likes of Real Madrid (who have been coveting him for some time) would easily offer him more. There is something keeping him here even when the going gets tough and he, himself, could so easily walk.
In terms of a replacement, we have to use the example of other clubs. Manchester United wanted Klopp. He said no. What makes us think, on that basis, that he would come to us? Spurs wanted van Gaal. He said no because a better offer came in. Can we also afford to be 'competed out' of a good manager? The most pertinent question is, is there enough quality about? The most appetizing option I've heard is à Bergkamp/De Boer combination. Bergkamp doesn't tend to have problems with the English media (who, if you're not Mourinho, will be quick to hound you out if your surname isn't Smith) and he loves the club. Again, not a mercenary.
The most crucial thing for us is Champions League qualification. This echoes the views of other posters. How are we going to attract players, keep our own players and interview the very best managers out there without that carrot? As ridiculous as we think it sounds, it actually would be like a trophy this season, in my eyes. (But all hinging on the hope that Wenger leaves this summer)
We will never know until we try.
Klopp this week stated he wanted to come to the EPL. Seemed like a come and get me plea.
He would be perfect.
Nobody in competitive football covets Wenger anymore. That myth has well and truly been blown out of the water. He more than anyone else knows this that is why it will be hard to dislodge him. He wont go anywhere where winning above all is the imperative. He will not tire of underperforming at Arsenal, we will have to embarrass him out of the club it seems as he will not resign willingly. Sad, but it really has come to this. Kroenke, The board, Gazidis, None of them will do it only the fans by a show of absence or mass protest will free us from Wengers clutches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernesto
The unfortunate situation is that things won't change if we maintain top 4. But falling out of top 4 could lead to a struggle to get the right man in and the players without over the top salaries and fees like United have done. And they will struggle to do it for more than one season so what chance do we have.
Two-three years ago i'd agree but i think he'd be a Wenger Mark II, his teams play entertaining football (like we once did) but he doesn't seem to be able to adjust his own teams tactics....talk about them losing key personnel as much as you like but defensively they are just as bad as us at the moment and his back four has largely been unchanged.Quote:
Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon
A few months ago i thought that if Wenger was to go ASAP we'd need a big name with experience of winning to come in, i'm not even sure that's the case we just need someone who can come in and get the basics right. Even going into this period with a lack of defensive options, the results do not reflect that there is quality in the squad....there is no excuse to hide behind. Chelsea for me were always going to win the title this season, but 15 points behind them at this stage?....a team that was battling against relegation six-seven weeks ago is now two points above us.
If Wenger had any pride and walked away, it's almost inevitable that the board would appoint Steve Bould even if it was just to the end of the season....Bould is the right choice for me he is the inside man that knows every aspect of the club but would bring a more street smart approach to us and would not be same messianic regard that everyone currently regards Arsene the demagogue.
Klopp's won 2 league titles, 1 fa cup, 2 community shields and got them to a champions league final in the last 5 years.
They also blitzed us when we played them this season.
No brainer.
Also a return of 11 points from 12 league games, including this weekend where they threw away a two nil lead
blitzing us is hardly even much of an achievement at this moment in time
Even if they beat us on Wednesday which i fully expect them to, i still have my reservations about him
He's had 10 bad weeks and you're criticising him but you stick up for wenger who's had 10 bad years :haha:
Bould over Klopp? What makes you think the players will respond to Bould once Wenger's gone? They're not responding to him now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
That's funny in my original response to you i called for Wenger to be replaced by Bould for the remainder of the season. And throughout this thread i've said i've wanted Wenger to go when the right man comes into to replace him....Quote:
Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon
If that's sticking up for the man, i'd hate to know what you think being critical is
Klopp has been treading water in the domestic league for the past few seasons, even if you consider that the German league is 34 games compared to 38 the point accumulation has certainly been no better than ours especially when you consider that outside of Bayern and Borussia Dortmund (and maybe Schalke and Leverkusen) most of the German teams would struggle to even remain in the Premier league.
It's not to say he couldn't adapt and make a good fist of things here, but to be honest if we got rid of Wenger right now it's probably unlikely Klopp would chuck in Dortmund to come to us anyway (even with his struggles in the Bundesliga he probably feels he can have a crack at the Champions League).
Depends how much say he has, at the moment i suspect very little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
I just fear that in Klopp there are similarities to Wenger a) tactical inflexibility and b) someone who is likely to build a cult of personality around himself
What we need is a captain on a touchline, someone who can be the leader that we don't have on the pitch....and whilst Klopp is very vocal and gesticular from the touchline i don't know how well that would translate.
Do you think Bould can make the transition to manager and earn the respect of the players after playing the 'yes man' for so long? After working day in day out with the players I really don't know if he's going to be able to stamp his authority once Wenger is out the door. The players have been used to the 'softly softly' approach and I doubt they'll respond to a more strict approach if that hasn't been his stance from first walking in the door.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Klopp at least has credentials behind him to back up his bark. Bould doesn't and I doubt he'd be able to be so heavy handed with them.
Who is talking about being heavy handed?.....and i think it's harsh on Bould to call him a yes man....put yourself in his shoes.....probably got tired of voicing his opinion and it being ignored, but if you think you have a chance of replacing the man currently in charge what would be the sense of storming off in a fit of pique?.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Would you agree that if Wenger was to go ASAP, that bringing in Klopp to replace him wouldn't be incredibly likely, and therefore bringing in Bould to the end of the season would be the most likely outcome?. Then you assess Bould on how he has performed in that interim period, and you decide whether to give him the chance to take on the job full time or go for someone with bigger credentials.
If we want a manager to get this team back on track, we need someone to be vocal and more strict which is more 'heavy handed' compared to Wenger's approach. How Bould would approach things as manager is all speculation and what he actually gets up to in training is also. But the results are there for all to see and he's part of this set up that's failing. Has to shoulder some of the blame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
You say it's harsh but I think you're being very harsh on Klopp. I'm not questioning the interim manager thing. I just don't see the logic on writing off Klopp, someone that's one a title, done the basics and gone beyond, yet you question his ability. Bould is failing in his current role as assistant manager but you're ok with him taking the manager role on. It makes no sense.
Of course it's speculative, and what i would specculate on is that there have been periods of times in the past two-three seasons where we have defended far better than we have at any time since we had the George Graham era back four, and then suddenly reverted to being a disorganised rabble....for instance in 2013 the last 11 games of the season we conceded five goals including the complete shut out of Bayern Munich in Germany....i'd be hard pressed to believe anyone but Bould was responsible for that. But i think it's part of a power struggle on the training ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
There is also the clear instance of him lambasting Wenger on the touchline including "How many times must i say it to you". Plus you have the reports in the Independent after the Swansea game where the coaching staff are not happy, presumably because they are not being allowed to do their job.
If he thinks he is in with a shout of replacing Wenger probably he now thinks it's best just to shut up and say nothing, although saying that i'm reading Twitter rumors that this might no longer be the case and Bould is considering jacking it in at Arsenal, probably complete bollocks but you never know.
My concern with Klopp, is that Arsenal's no 1 priority is to sort out it's defence organisation and discipline....and perhaps at least in the short term we need someone more pragmatic and safety first.
Klopp is a more charismatic and extroverted version of Wenger, he believes in high tempo, pressing high up the pitch attacking football.
But then again maybe he's not as much as a micro manager as L'Ouisseau, maybe he would take a back seat and allow someone like Bould or another defensive coach to work on what we do when not in possession.
Actually I think Bould's heavy handed approach would work wonders with this lot, getting them into gear for the next 8 months, before someone like Klopp takes over in the summer.
As Henry Winter said (he is a prick but knows his stuff) noone has the balls to fire Wenger and it will have to be him resigning rather than the club firing him. Gazidis was hired by Wenger and just the other week he was on about dreading the day Wenger leaves because the board have no fucking clue what to do.
The man wont resign because he's always respected his contracts + he is way too stubborn to see that he is ruining his reputation and he club in the process.
I'd speculate on whether Bould wants to be a first team manager. He is 52. Does he want the manager role? Had this debate with another poster some years back and he pointed out his age and whether he even wanted the role when I suggested he could take over from Wenger. It's a good point. It's rather late for him to be getting into the game with just over a year's worth of experience as assistant manager. How old was Wenger when he arrived here? How old are Pep, Jose and Klopp? Bould might just be waiting on Wenger's contract to run down so he can work with another manager as assistant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
I was rooting for Bould to become assistant manager. I'd hope the defence would be sorted and we'd see more of his influence. But the reality is that hasn't happened. How much that is down to Wenger restricting his role, we don't know, but it's possible that Wenger is indeed restricting him to collecting cones during training. That's even more of a reason to question his management ability. How much has he learned in such a short period?
This all may sound harsh on Bould, but I think we need to be realistic. We're comparing a man that's struggling in the assistant role with no first team management experience to someone with a very solid record at Dortmund. The ideal version of Bould as manager vs someone that has real management experience and accomplishments. I think it's harsh to knock Klopp's record but then nominate Bould. The ideal and imagined version of Bould as manager will always sound good. Similar to how I thought he'd flourish as assistant manager.
I wouldn't mind him as a stop gap for someone like Klopp. But he'd have to pull off some really impressive results if we're talking about a full time role over Klopp. It goes beyond sorting out the defence. I'd be pissed with the Board if they passed up on Klopp for Bould.
You could be right in respect of Boulds age but after Wenger I am not keen on the idea of another manager being in charge for years upon years.
But yes you could be right that he may want to be assistant under a new Manager and perhaps he would be retained in that position if someone like Klopp came in.
To be honest though I get the impression Gazidis is looking for someone he is more likely to have control over and will work within the coaching framework he is looking to set up (Jonker and Forsythe being his appointments) and this is why names like Paul Clement being mooted. I get the impression that whilst he knows he has no leverage over Wenger, he is the one who will be in charge of his successor.