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Originally Posted by Letters
I think it was fair as at the time the results were looking a bit more steady and consistent at the time.
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:dQuote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I think it was fair as at the time the results were looking a bit more steady and consistent at the time.
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Originally Posted by IBK
The only bit I query is whilst the aim was top 6, realistically top 4 is / was very achievable given our competition or lack of it. Not only that but Arteta has absolutely failed, the past 3 performances and results have been a disaster and a lot goes back to Arteta.
I am personally giving Arteta until the end of the season, but I am leaning to him being given the boot to be honest.
4th place back on... Artetas job is same until the next game
Why is it so black and white, depending game to game on how furious you are?
This is a long term thing. Massive setback if we don’t get CL, and we absolutely must have it. But if we don’t, sacking Arteta would put us back 3 years, not move us forward.
The long and short of this season is the January gamble. Do you strengthen and put pressure on the finances if we still fail, or do you leave the team facing fatigue or injury with your fingers crossed?
We chose the later, and after a good run of form, you have to expect a bad run when you lose key players and people get knackered. What matters now, is whether we can use this result as a recovery from a short dip, and whether we can utilose the lokes of Elneny and co to get us over the line
Let's hope we kick on now, I have a horrible feeling we won't be happy come tomorrow afternoon after the United game. They are welcoming back the likes of Ronaldo and Varane so will be pretty much close to full strength. United are very inconsistent, you could even call them shite, but I think tomorrow's game will be very difficult TBH, i'm expecting a loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
One thing's certain, Ronaldo will be wearing a t-shirt under his Moan U shirt with a slogan about his son and will be dying to score to dedicate the goal(s) to him :(
Are you new here? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
I've always tried not to overreact to one off results. But I was ready to hop back on the Arteta Out bandwagon after 3 defeats in a row.
We are supposed to be in a Top 4 fight, Auba going in January was the right thing to do, he was trouble. But it left us very lightweight up front.
We were getting away with it for a while but losing 3 in a row really wasn't good enough. Two of those were winnable enough and especially that last one when Spurs had lost, it was the perfect opportunity to stamp our authority on it again and it was "same old Arsenal" as well flat on our stupid faces.
I thought that was that, Wednesday's result was a nice surprise and does put us back in it. So let's see where we go from here.
I don't think it's as black and white as "Top 4" or Arteta Out. But I'm expecting us to fight for it. If we miss out then so be it - the Top 3 are miles above us which only leaves one credible space and there are a few other sides fighting for that. I just want to feel like there's progress. For a while I was seeing that. Right now I'm not so sure. I think Arteta's going to be here next season come what may now, there's a big summer coming up - everyone knows we need a striker which means we're not going to get one cheap. I do see some good signs in this team, and having a young team costs you points. With the right additions in the summer we could push on. I think Arteta deserves a chance to do that but if we completely collapse again I'll be less sure about that. Always feels like 2 steps forward, 3 steps back with this lot.
Expectation ebbs and flows with every result, that’s just the nature of the sport. However considering Southampton got hit for 6 and lost to Burnley, either side of our result there, shows how careless it was from us. Brighton had not won in 6 games either until they done us over as well.
It isn’t 4th place or bust, but I get the feeling there’s also a passiveness at the idea of finishing 4th because it wasn’t necessarily the goal in August. If an opportunity presents itself you take the bloody thing because there’s no guarantee it’s coming again next season. There have been many occasions over the years where the bar has been low enough for us to do something unexpected and this is one of those seasons. It’s not black and white but wilting under the pressure is not a good look no matter how promising something might be too.
These are exactly the same arguments being made this time last year and I guarantee we will be making the same this time next year IF Arteta stays. United have a new manager....with proven pedigree not some romantic former player with a seawave of goodwill behind him instead of actual chops. Will City or Pool lose form? I doubt it. Chelsea may even give Tuchel the heave ho given the epileptic nature of this season. Zidane is on sabbatical but may be open to persuasion by the right project. In the meantime over at Arsenal we are measuring progress with a Vernier caliper.
If we lose to both United and Spuds then what exactly is the purpose of our internship of Arteta. 7th this season and maybe 6th next season?. Progress is progress I guess.
TBH I was frankly shocked by the Chelsea game, but if we get good results against United and Spurs. I will have to concede we may be going somewhere
I think Arteta needs to go, but we don’t need to be taking lessons from Manchester United when it comes to the managerial role.
I understand the need for a long term plan but I also don’t think it’s a given that incremental “progress” will take us to where we want to be. Timing is everything and sometimes you need to grab an opportunity if it presents itself.
Emery finished 5th in his first season when we should have finished 4th, that was still better than Wengers final year so I guess we saw that as progress, then it all fell off a cliff 6 months later and took us 2 years to recover.
There were times with Wenger when we flirted with a title challenge only to look completely inept the following season. Things can change very quickly, especially as everyone has money now, everyone has the scouting etc. The top 2 are in a league of their own but for the rest of us it’s never been more competitive.
So the question is. What is the purpose, the plan for this club beyond existing on the periphery of greatness. Are we ever going to compete. Do we even want to compete at the highest level. The current management of Arsenal is just stringing the fans along. The manager is the most important ingredient in any club. Arteta does not convince me at all
Letters' first :gp: since Coney was born.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I feel that there is an issue of context in the way Arteta is being judged. This is not to deny that there are question marks over his managerial capabilities, but while some argue that in Arteta the club is settling for mediocrity there is very much an alterantive way of looking at things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
First, who are we judging him alongside? Currently we are sitting in 4th place - behind clubs managed by 3 of the most successful and well regarded coaches in world football, and employed by clubs with either infinitely more resources than ours (at least until recently in Chelsea's case), or reaping the benefits of several years of inch perfect club and on pitch management and investment and sustained success in Liverpool's case. Are we really expecting that following years of turmoil and under-achievement Arsenal would attract a Klopp or a Guardiola? Take that expectation out of the equation, and our rookie manager has not done too badly over his less than 2 1/2 years in charge. If we want to compare 'like for like' with a similar sized club with similar resources to our then why not look at Conte for that lot down the road. Many would have looked at him as the 'track record' manager that we should be attracting at Arsenal but for all the hand wringing over our disappointing results Arteta is out performing Conte this far this season, even with one hand behind his back in the striker department.
Second, look at the pivot in the EPL towards younger, fresher managers rather than the traditional old guard. In many ways, Arsenal have been in the vanguard of this in terms of a traditional 'big club' making a bold move. Tactical flexibility; planning for the medium to long term; fresh ideas...this is what many clubs are now looking for, and for all Arteta's flaws, he brings these qualities to the table. When you look at how some of the 'bright young things' at other EPL clubs are crashing and burning this season in (as you point out) an era of massive league competition and a far more level playing field, and I think Arteta compares pretty favourably.
Third, what is consistently overlooked IMO is just how much a change in ethos/mentality was needed at Arsenal. For years we were a by word for stagnation - with players having it too easy, a lack of togetherness; lack of connection with the fans; short term expensive signings to chase short term aims of CL football. Much of this has improved dramatically at our club this season, and that is down to our manager. Say what you like about Arteta - his players remain behind him and bought into what he is trying to do, and for me this is a much better indication of his direction of travel than the often reductive and loaded opinions of pundits - armchair or otherwise.
Step outside our Arsenal bubble - that is inevitably driven by a certain sense of entitlement to be at the top table where we were previously - and I think we would find that fans of most top 10 clubs outside the top 3 would say that Arsenal are slowly getting it right under Arteta...and more importantly that we now undoubtedly have a solid platform from which to push on, for the first time in many years.
I am not an Arteta cheerleader as such, but I like to think I am objective enough to balance the tangible improvements that he has brought to our team and the club more generally with his more obvious mistakes. And I certainly feel that from where we are, seeing whether the progress that we have made this season under Arteta can be built upon for next season is a far better option than rolling the dice again with another manager.
<_<Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Splinter
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Originally Posted by Letters
Just to update this. At this stage last year we were:
P33 W13 D7 L13 F44 A37 GD7 Pts46
Now it's:
P33 W19 D3 L11 F52 A40 GD12 Pts60
So that's 14 points improvement. Progress :bow:
NOTE: We did win our last 5 games last year, we are unlikely to this year. But it's unlikely we'll finish with less points this year than we did last.
Fewer
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Originally Posted by Xhaka Can’t
Dammit!
:getcoat:
:pal:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
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Originally Posted by Xhaka Can’t
'Objection!
Call for heresay'
Are we all back in love with Mickey now we are back in 4th place? :d
Lets see what happens when we play the Spuds.Ive shifted from the "Get this fker out" column to. Give him till end of May, campQuote:
Originally Posted by selassie
No love yet but if he can finish 4th without a decent striker then fair play.
I think if we beat West Ham this weekend we’ve got one hand on the 4th place cup. Football isn’t played on paper (as our 3 consecutive defeats show) but the next game week sees us play Leeds at home while Spurs are at Anfield. We could be in an extremely strong position before the NLD.
West Ham would be a huge 3 points if we can get them.
Aye, me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Yeah Sundays game is massive. A win at West Ham would be huge.
West Han coming off their biggest game in years should hopefully work in our favour.
There is a clear difference between what we had when Wenger left and what we have now.
Teams around us change as we do, therefore
Looking at where we are now (statistically) makes fuck all difference and has no relevance.
All you can do is look at the team and judge whether or not the deficiencies that plagued us have been improved on (not vamquished) and whether the manager has had support (financially and unilaterally) to make best of what he can.
For me, he has given the team a shape, removed many of the rotten parts, and seemingly garnered support from his players from within.
If you look at the table, you’re looking at Guardiola, Klopp, Tuchel, Arteta, Cunte as the top five managers of the top five teams. Would you take any of those underneath? And I mean seriously? And at leat two of the managers in that top five have had inexhaustible wealth chucked at the team.
For me, Klopp is in a league of his own. Elsewhere, you will find it hard to get a manager who will compete with their nouse AND financial backing.
We can be so sanctimonious and privileged at times. I for one am just happy we have a team that wants to win, even if they dont.
Ps. I’m not in the manager swap club unless its absolutely necessary. Just look at the spuffs and what they’ve benefited from it. Emery was not the right person, and never should have been put in charge.
One thing you have to give Arteta is that he’s got everyone playing for him and he’s also got the fans liking the team again. It shouldn’t be understated just how big the disconnect was and had been for years even going back to Wenger’s final seasons.
We had too many players here on inflated deals using Arsenal as easy street. Thankfully that’s in the process of changing with more stringent recruitment and standards.
Obviously I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Yes, teams change, but I don't think the overall quality of the league changes that much from year to year.
I agree with the things you mention about deficiencies, but if the changes there don't yield better results then so what?
:good:Quote:
We can be so sanctimonious and privileged at times. I for one am just happy we have a team that wants to win, even if they dont.
Was talking to a mate about this last night - Liverpool fan, they're having their day in the sun.
I was saying how back in the day when Wenger was at his pomp dad and me always knew that it wouldn't last forever. Those years were the outliers, not now.
We have no divine right to be up there, for many parts of our history we haven't been. And success is rarely instant in football.
I did nearly "lose it" with Arteta after the 3 straight wins. It seemed like "same old Arsenal". But the last couple of games have put us right back in it. Let's hope we can finish the job. I'll try not to lose my head if we don't as there does seem to have been clear progress since last year. Arteta is earning the right to try and continue that.
Same here. Managers these days are almost irrelevant. 99.999999999999999% is about money and the rest is about football and the players and their commitment to the fans. The TV companies wax lyrical about the latter, except on transfer day when they pull their nickers down and finger themselves on live TV.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Klopp couldn't do a damn thing at Arsenal because he wouldn't have the lunatic sums he's been playing with. He wouldn't come here anyway, for that very reason.
If you look at the clubs above us, but use a different measure, you'll see they all spunk cash as if the world is ending tomorrow. Unfortunately it doesn't get more complex than that.
This "divine right" bullshit is the biggest red herring of all. Nobody has a divine right, that's true. But it never had anything to do with that anyway. The spoils go to those who turn up most. That's what luck is, in reality. When you are a fucking waster, like Arsenal FC, you can moan all you want about inches but the lack of dedication is genuinely measured in miles. The Top Four Mega Trophy makes me laugh my arse off. This bunch of tossers might actually qualify for a tournament they literally stand ZERO percent chance of winning - or even competing. It's a sad joke. Being played on the fans. Who should know better by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Exactly right. If you dont try and compete you will never compete. There is no such thing as "divine right" Pool were in the wilderness for decades but never gave up the desire to be at the very top. They changed many things, managers, players and even ownership until they found the right combination. The hunger never left them, they won Europa titles when we were still bragging about being perpetual top 4. Manchester United always believe that the PL title is divinely theirs and anyone else holding it is effectively handling stolen goods. That is a good egotism, the type that should drive all major sports franchises. At Arsenal we have lost any desire to be the absolute best. Our Owner Kroenke even stated it as a core business philosophy. We are simply delighted to be mentioned in dispatches. Not hungry to be on the main page. No surprises that Letters as usual is making excuses for mediocrity he campaigned for Wengers last 15 years as the best anyone on the planet could do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
We wasted at least 10 years on that French bloke, missing out on managers who could really drive this club forward. This mediocrity has seeped into the fanbase too. We swallowed Chelsea winning half a dozen leagues and 2 CL while we watched and dismissed it as "beneath us". It will likely take Spuds winning the CL before us (They will if Conte is properly backed) for the animal to awaken in the followership because sure as hell Kroenke wont give a shit. Our philosophy is to somehow stumble into glory, not strategize for it, hence hiring a pure novice and invoking all the deities on the planet to sprinkle stardust on him and fans to back him.
Ive decide to wait and see with Arteta because he seems to stumble from a shambles to miracle worker in the space of like 3 weeks in a continuous loop cycle all season. We have only beaten a top 3 team once all year and if you cant beat them, you will never join them. If Conte stays and they beat us to top 4, we will fall behind them again next season for sure. United wont allow themselves to continue failing and the top 3 will remain the top 3. So where does that leave us?
Wenger is partly to blame for conditioning the club to believe top 4 is the height of success, however when you’re stuck with ownership who legitimately don’t care if Arsenal win another trophy or not as long as the club is profitable, it’s not surprising the fans have fallen into their own malaise.
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Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Your straw manning is tiresome.
I want us to be at the top of the footballing tree, of course I do.
But given that last season we were bumbling around in mid table and didn’t even qualify for Europe, some realism is needed about what we could achieve this season. Anyone expecting a title challenge was deluded and that isn’t the criteria by which anyone should judge any Arsenal manager this season. No manager could have taken over Arsenal last summer and won us the title. The question is whether we are making progress under Arteta and whether we are doing so quickly enough. We need to see how this season ends but so far it seems like the answer to the first question is yes. The second question will depend on individual expectations but given the current footballing landscape I’d say yes IF we finish the season strongly.
Like it or not (not), Top 4 is a stepping stone and therefore important. It should not be the limit of our ambitions and Wenger’s comparison with a trophy was unhelpful. But given where we were last season it would be a big step forwards. We sack Arteta when we stop making progress under him. I’m not convinced he’s the man to challenge Klopp or Pep, but he’s earning the right to try, for now.
If we collapse again then my opinion about that will change.
Letters.... I am not sure why your aren't a lawyer or something like that.
First of all you say this
Self explanatory, everyone understands what being at the TOP means. Then you say this........Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
So if he can't challenge Klop or Pep who are on top of the foodchain, have been for the past 6 years and are both going nowhere, how exactly is he going to achieve your "dream"??Quote:
We sack Arteta when we stop making progress under him. I’m not convinced he’s the man to challenge Klopp or Pep, but he’s earning the right to try, for now.
Its things and statements like this that have Globalgunner and others digging out your past and remembering how you were an active "enabler" during the dark days of AW, and it still remains a fact that only the disastrous Kronke ownership supersedes the damage the "enablers" have caused this club!!
Look it's simple, we either believe in the Arteta project or not, and if you don't believe he is the man to get us to the top, isn't it better to go and look for the man that will do it than doing another 10 years in purgatory. It's the AW argument all over again. I remember clearly how you would say then "at least we are always challenging under Wenger". Then it changed to we are always in the CL and top 4 trophy . Then when he finally fell out as long predicted, you then reluctantly said he might have to go.... what is wrong with being clear from the beginning stating what you want and what you can't stand in a competitive sport? No one's going to shoot you if you want Arteta out because you don't believe he's the best, he ends up staying proving you wrong and winning the trophies ... thats just life mate, its not a crime to be wrong (and funnily no obvious awards are being given for you being right in this situation or Zim would be smiling where ever he is).
But it's terrible to sit on the fence in life (a la Ukraine) and especially in sport. If most Liverpool fans were like you they'd still have Rafa there, thinking they couldn't do better and both Brendan and Klopp quickly disproved that notion.
Anyway I agree with Letters in one thing, it been 3 years and Arteta still hasn't shown me any evidence he has what it takes to win the league (I wasn't interested in top 4 trophies under AW, not interested in it now), so I still want him out ASAP...simple and easy. I know what I want and what competitive sport is about. End of.
I don't know if he can. Gut feeling says not, but IMO he's earning the right to try.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
It feels like there is clear progress from last season. We already have more points than we finished on last year. Last season we were bumbling around in mid table, this year we are in the conversation for Top 4. That should not be our ultimate goal and I agree Wenger made too much of it, but like it or not it is an important step towards the top in the modern game. It feels like the players are buying in to what Arteta is trying to achieve. Changing manager now feels like it would set us back, not push us forwards. There's no guarantee that changing managers would bring success either, Emery was in theory a far more accomplished manager than Arteta and that didn't work out for us
The "long predicted" is telling there. People were saying 15 years ago that Wenger would take us in to mid table or worse. The fact it happened 10 years after they predicted it doesn't really give them the right to punch the air and hand out "told you so's". It's like predicting a 6 on a dice, rolling 10 times, finally getting a 6 and saying "see?!". But fine, I'm happy to concede that I kept the faith with Wenger longer than I should have. But that's the good thing about Emery or Arteta or any future Arsenal manager. They're not Wenger, they don't have that legacy and baggage. When it became clear Emery wasn't working we got rid. If it becomes clear that Arteta isn't then we should do the same.Quote:
I remember clearly how you would say then "at least we are always challenging under Wenger". Then it changed to we are always in the CL and top 4 trophy . Then when he finally fell out as long predicted, you then reluctantly said he might have to go
I just don't think we should pre-emptively do so. He's taking us in the right direction, IMO. I'm not sure how far he can take us, but I'm willing to give him a chance to try.
What evidence would you have expected to see, given how things were when he took over? I mean, there was a lot of shit to sort out. For me, he's been doing that. He's cleared out some dead wood, he's sorted out the defence, there's more shape to the team, there's some good young players who look hungry. Did you see the way we moved the ball forward yesterday? At times it was superb, you put a top striker in this team - it's no secret that's what we are missing - and we'd be winning games more comfortably rather than the nervy affairs we've been seeing a lot this season. But the ability to get scrappy wins is an important one and it's a nice one we seem to have developed.Quote:
Anyway I agree with Letters in one thing, it been 3 years and Arteta still hasn't shown me any evidence he has what it takes to win the league.
TL;DR - I reckon changing manager now would set us back, not push us forward.
I admit I have conflicting opinions of Arteta, but right now I am literally just enjoying each game as they come. I am emotionally invested in us securing CL for the first time in god knows how long.
If we don't finish in the top 4 this season it will be a big disappointment, even though we were not expected to at the start of the season, we have got ourselves into a very good position now with only a handful of games left. Yes we currently have a number of injuries, and you could argue that the lack of cover or squad depth is an issue created by Arteta, but the players are doing well at the moment, it is all we can ask of them, to win games.
Progress has been made this season even if our recent back to back losing streak reminded us all that this team is still very much a "work in progress"
Arteta is doing a decent enough job this season given that our expectations and previous two league finishes were 8th. He has started the rebuild of the squad and let's be honest he is doing a decent enough job of it. He has brought in or given opportunities to young hungry players of a good standard, they all seem to have decent character too.
Long term I don't believe Arteta will bridge the gap between us and the top 2, but I can't think of a manager outside of those who manage the current top 2 who could. Any progress made requires continued significant investment and internal improvement of the current squad. Not just for us, I think Chelsea, Spurs and Man United fall into this bracket too.
For me, if we can establish ourselves as a consistent top 4 team, continue to develop our style with a focus on young players then I'll be happy. It would be nice to make good progress in Europe too, ideally CL. I don't think any of us can ask for any more than that right now and if Arteta delivers that over the next few years then he'll be doing a good job.
This is not strictly true. Klopp took over a struggling Liverpool team who were in pretty much a similar position to us prior to this season. He then went about gutting the squad by buying at the time largely unfancied but high potential players from prem clubs or in the european market. Liverpool only really started to turn it on once they took Barca to the cleaners with the Coutinho fee and invested that in Van Dijk & Allison. Let's not forget none of these players were world class before they joined Liverpool. Klopp moulded that team / squad into his own and pretty much improved every single player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
It's only really been in recent times since there recent success have they gone into the market and spent relatively big on players to compete with their current XI
Klopp is basically doing what Wenger did when he joined us all those years ago with the exception of winning CL which we didn't manage to do.
I guess the point i am making is that if you get your recruitment right, have a good plan and are able to improve your internal solutions then you will improve, I am not saying to the extent where you challenge for titles but any improvement right now for us is a good thing.
Poch improved the Spuds not that long ago, for a few seasons they were credible challengers. Though at the time, there wasn't a defined top 2 so the competition was a lot more balanced.
I wouldn't be against us improving to the extent where we are geniunely relevant in PL as a challenging team.