Can we win the Premier League again under Wenger ?

You can't really criticise Wenger for not buying Aubameyang in 2013. He scored 18 and 21 goals in 2011/12 and 2012/13, with a similar goals per game ratio to Gervinho in the French league. Then he went to Dortmund and scored 16 in 48 games. That's hardly the record of a world class striker. It's only the season just gone that he came to life, so it's the right time to try to sign him - after he's proven that he's not another dud.

Problem is Dortmund don't want to sell and they are particularly hard headed when they don't want to let a player go. He needs to either pay over the odds and make an offer they can't refuse, or move on and get to work on signing the next name on his list.

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Originally Posted by fakeyank

Nothing has changed in Wengers philosophy or his way of working. He still has no plan B in games. He still waits for the players to become available, rather than making things happen. He still plays players out of position. He is still 'forced into a correct decision' due to injuries, rather than own ability (Coquelin).

Again, I said this at the beginning of last season and the season before.. come Feb/March, we will be having the same shitty conversation of 'whether we made progress or not'. Frankly, I dont know why I even bother but I know I'll be here saying the same thing I said last year and the year before and the year before...

Please prove me wrong this season... PUHLEASEEEE!! :pray:

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I agree nothing has changed in Wenger's philosophy but it's the same philosophy that won us 3 titles back in the day and in the last 2 years has won us 2 FA Cups. It's a common misconception that because we were very successful in the earlier part of his time with us and have been less so since it must mean that Wenger is doing things differently. If anything, the problem (as much as we have a problem) is he isn't doing things differently while other clubs are.

Wenger's early success came about because of his knowledge of the European game and (at the time) revolutionary training methods - it should be remembered that Wenger came to us in the era of 'drinking schools' in clubs, some players from that era have credited Wenger with lengthening their careers. We had the pick of the talent in Europe that weren't on other clubs' radars, we used to get criticized for having so many foreign players, now the PL is awash with foreign talent as other clubs have wised up. Wenger hasn't lost his edge, other clubs have caught up and, arguably, overtaken us.
Also, when Wenger came to us the money in the game wasn't quite so obscene and you didn't have billionaires attempting to buy up trophies left right and center.

Money and success are highly correlated in today's game. The only 3 sides who have won the title since we last did are the 3 sides with bigger resources than us and we've been going through our own period of austerity with the stadium move. I agree that Wenger could have spent more here and there but he was restricted compared with the billionaire cheats. Since the new financial deals have been in place we've seen the difference in the level of spending and it has yielded results in terms of trophies. There are rumblings of a big signing this summer, nothing has happened yet but let's wait till the window SLAMS shut before drawing conclusions about this summer's dealings, or lack thereof.

The big difference I feel now is in mentality - a few years ago we would never have won that quarter final at Old Trafford. And although the title was all but gone we kept the pressure on as much as we could last year right up until the moment the title was gone mathematically. If we're in the mix in March/April then I trust this lot to keep going far more than I would have a few years ago. Bottom line though, it's tougher than it used to be to win the title. We're in an era where money and success are correlated and whatever our ticket prices we have the 4th biggest resources. We should be able to compete with the rest of the top 4 and I believe we can, but in the short term I can't see us dominating like we did in the early noughties no matter who our manager is.

To the OP: No!

/thread

I used to resolutely think no ....... that the old man was too stubborn, obstinate, fixed in his ways to adapt his methods to modern football but seeing how we're gradually making the necessary changes that we've needed for ages .... i.e. more tactical flexibility, actually analysing opponents, looking into our injury situation etc etc .... gives me hope that we can.

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Originally Posted by The Emirates Gallactico

i.e. more tactical flexibility, actually analysing opponents

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Other than the away game at city last season, what games did you see the above in?

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I agree nothing has changed in Wenger's philosophy but it's the same philosophy that won us 3 titles back in the day and in the last 2 years has won us 2 FA Cups. It's a common misconception that because we were very successful in the earlier part of his time with us and have been less so since it must mean that Wenger is doing things differently. If anything, the problem (as much as we have a problem) is he isn't doing things differently while other clubs are.

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Moving from a high tempo, counter-attacking game that also featured absolute dominance of the midfield and was played by powerful athletes to a slower, tippy-tappy, lightweight game played by midgets could be considered a change in philosophy. We were brilliantly successful at the former and toothless with the latter. There have been signs we are shifting back towards a faster, counter attacking style, at least some of the time.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I agree nothing has changed in Wenger's philosophy but it's the same philosophy that won us 3 titles back in the day and in the last 2 years has won us 2 FA Cups. It's a common misconception that because we were very successful in the earlier part of his time with us and have been less so since it must mean that Wenger is doing things differently. If anything, the problem (as much as we have a problem) is he isn't doing things differently while other clubs are.

Wenger's early success came about because of his knowledge of the European game and (at the time) revolutionary training methods - it should be remembered that Wenger came to us in the era of 'drinking schools' in clubs, some players from that era have credited Wenger with lengthening their careers. We had the pick of the talent in Europe that weren't on other clubs' radars, we used to get criticized for having so many foreign players, now the PL is awash with foreign talent as other clubs have wised up. Wenger hasn't lost his edge, other clubs have caught up and, arguably, overtaken us.
Also, when Wenger came to us the money in the game wasn't quite so obscene and you didn't have billionaires attempting to buy up trophies left right and center.

Money and success are highly correlated in today's game. The only 3 sides who have won the title since we last did are the 3 sides with bigger resources than us and we've been going through our own period of austerity with the stadium move. I agree that Wenger could have spent more here and there but he was restricted compared with the billionaire cheats. Since the new financial deals have been in place we've seen the difference in the level of spending and it has yielded results in terms of trophies. There are rumblings of a big signing this summer, nothing has happened yet but let's wait till the window SLAMS shut before drawing conclusions about this summer's dealings, or lack thereof.

The big difference I feel now is in mentality - a few years ago we would never have won that quarter final at Old Trafford. And although the title was all but gone we kept the pressure on as much as we could last year right up until the moment the title was gone mathematically. If we're in the mix in March/April then I trust this lot to keep going far more than I would have a few years ago. Bottom line though, it's tougher than it used to be to win the title. We're in an era where money and success are correlated and whatever our ticket prices we have the 4th biggest resources. We should be able to compete with the rest of the top 4 and I believe we can, but in the short term I can't see us dominating like we did in the early noughties no matter who our manager is.

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Wenger has been around at the club for so long that he has worked through a few cycles that have enabled him to be relevant (early years) fall from grace (the peak defensive Mourinho years that changed football) and now back again as philosophies have circled around to attack strategies, hence why the art of defending is suffering. And also why football has become so stagnated with so many teams playing the same repetitive style.

Just please stop about billionaire cheat nonsense. Yes it is sickening and tarnished football but boo hoo, Corporate Arsenal have done their very best to ensure our morals are just as tarnished in different ways. As a club with the long term 'ambition' of joining the murky waters of the very top tier in Europe, there has been no yellow brick road to get there. Big companies grow to their size by ripping off customers and making it look like they are doing their clients a favour. A brilliant con. Just like Arsenal and their brand of entertainment, whilst they trade on our nostalgia of fandom. We are just as guilty as these other clubs of running the game and changing the dynamics. There is nothing worse than accusing someone else when you are up to you to your neck in it too.

We have the highest ticket prices because our set of deals have undermined our commercial viability. So the Arsenal company thought the best way to compensate for their lack of business acumen was to make up for it via the fans. I'm not sure the turnover argument works anymore either. Sure, we have the fourth highest, so that fits well enough but Utd are first (finished 7th), followed by City and Chelsea. The absurd amount of TV money generated has distorted the idea that the overall money coming in equals league position. At the last count in 13/14, Southampton had the 11th (before their team was stripped) and Villa 9th. Liverpool were 5th. The total may indicate an approximation but I don't think it nails a team down to a certified spot. The detail of management and expertise of maximising the playing staff makes the difference. No-one can dominate because of that very reason - nearly all the top teams now have similar amounts of money to spend, so it comes down to the finer details. Ironically, the ridiculous and sickening influx of money into the game has now levelled things out to a degree.

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Originally Posted by fakeyank

Other than the away game at city last season, what games did you see the above in?

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The Cup final for one.

Having Ches come and punch any dangerous crosses away to stop Benteke dominating aerial battles, dominating the midfield and through that isolating their sole threat up front, switching Theo and Alexis etc etc ........ it pretty much resulted in the almost perfect game we witnessed and the comprehensive win.

And even the template we used against Man City away wasn't really a one off - we tried it against Chelsea away but one moment of magic from Hazard and a ref who was susceptible to Hazard's propensity to go over easily put end to that.

Other notable ones include the Cup win against United where I thought we kept our shape well and also the Liverpool at home game where we exploited how porous and comical Liverpool's defending had been preceding that.

It's been documented in the Arsenal blogs and by the ITK's but we're definitely making improvements by actually studying opponents and preparing specific game plans for each match now. We've hired Ben Knapper (he's the random guy you see loitering around with the squad in videos at times) who does opposition video analysis for Wenger and the coaching staff and we're actually having team meetings to talk and discuss upcoming games prior to the event. Furthermore as part of the training ground improvements that's going to take place, we're building a state of the art video and data analysis centre.

It did use to be comically bad though; apparently all that used to happen was that some video clips were uploaded to a dropbox account and it was up to the players to choose whether or not to watch them. :doh:

Thankfully we've rectified that now. And even though it's something that should have happened ages ago, better late than never I say.

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Originally Posted by Kano

Just please stop about billionaire cheat nonsense.

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How is it nonsense? The three sides who have won the title since we last did are Utd and the two billionaire cheats. All sides with bigger resources than us for different reasons.

I regard it as cheating because it's not money they've earned through previous success, they haven't worked their way up (although I accept in today's game that is virtually impossible, I don't think we'll see anyone do a Wimbledon, or what Forest did). If we're guilty,of anything it's exploiting our fans but what is the alternative? Mid-table? And if we are doing that, we can only do so because of our fan base which comes from our previous success.

We've earned our place at the top table, City and Chelsea haven't.

I agree with a lot of your post but those two clubs have completely distorted the market and bought their way to titles, it's completely relevant to whether we'll win the league under Wenger again, or any manager actually.

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Originally Posted by Kano

Wenger has been around at the club for so long that he has worked through a few cycles that have enabled him to be relevant (early years) fall from grace (the peak defensive Mourinho years that changed football) and now back again as philosophies have circled around to attack strategies, hence why the art of defending is suffering. And also why football has become so stagnated with so many teams playing the same repetitive style.

Just please stop about billionaire cheat nonsense. Yes it is sickening and tarnished football but boo hoo, Corporate Arsenal have done their very best to ensure our morals are just as tarnished in different ways. As a club with the long term 'ambition' of joining the murky waters of the very top tier in Europe, there has been no yellow brick road to get there. Big companies grow to their size by ripping off customers and making it look like they are doing their clients a favour. A brilliant con. Just like Arsenal and their brand of entertainment, whilst they trade on our nostalgia of fandom. We are just as guilty as these other clubs of running the game and changing the dynamics. There is nothing worse than accusing someone else when you are up to you to your neck in it too.

We have the highest ticket prices because our set of deals have undermined our commercial viability. So the Arsenal company thought the best way to compensate for their lack of business acumen was to make up for it via the fans. I'm not sure the turnover argument works anymore either. Sure, we have the fourth highest, so that fits well enough but Utd are first (finished 7th), followed by City and Chelsea. The absurd amount of TV money generated has distorted the idea that the overall money coming in equals league position. At the last count in 13/14, Southampton had the 11th (before their team was stripped) and Villa 9th. Liverpool were 5th. The total may indicate an approximation but I don't think it nails a team down to a certified spot. The detail of management and expertise of maximising the playing staff makes the difference. No-one can dominate because of that very reason - nearly all the top teams now have similar amounts of money to spend, so it comes down to the finer details. Ironically, the ridiculous and sickening influx of money into the game has now levelled things out to a degree.

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