When will Arteta be sacked by

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

There’s nothing I’ve seen that gives me any hope that we will improve under Arteta

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I dunno. We have 66 points, 8 more than at this stage last season. If we win at the weekend we'll finish on 69 - still 8 points better off than last year and that would have been enough for 4th last year.
There does seem to have been a bit more shape about the team, at times we've moved the ball forward with more purpose. We lack a top striker but that's not news. And we have got better at closing out games. They're a young squad and that costs you points, I certainly see some potential in this lot.
I don't agree that the players aren't buying in to what he's trying to do. Maybe some of them didn't and he got rid of them. As he should have. Auba was trouble and he wasn't performing for us. Didn't he turn up late for the NLD and Arteta dropped him? He was supposed to been our captrain FFS.
But Arteta did take a massive risk by letting him go, and some others, and not adding to the squad in January. It left us threadbare and very vulnerable if we picked up injuries, which we did.

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Why the hell were the players so nervous last night

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That is a worry but I guess it was inexperience which led to an inability to deal with the pressure. Hopefully on Sunday they'll relax now things aren't in our hands. I don't think Norwich will do us any favours but I hope we at least get our result just in case.

I can only infer from the new contract that Kronke set Europa League qualification as Arteta's target. The announcement came pretty much immediately after that was secured.

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All I know is that 31 defeats in 95 league games coupled with only 143 goals scored in that time is absolutely abysmal record

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Hard to argue with, but to be fair look at the mess he inherited. He's got rid of a lot of dead wood since then and given the team more shape.
We do lose too many games but the number we are winning has increased too. Two seasons ago we only won 14 (holy shit that's awful!). Last year it was 18. This year it's 21, could end up 22. Let's not forget just two years ago we finished on 56 points.

I think he's trying to build something. I do think there's been some improvement over the last couple of years. It might not be fast enough for everyone's liking but I don't want to be another one of those clubs with a revolving door for managers. We don't want to be overly patient either of course, next year it's top 4 or bust for me. But I think Arteta deserves another season to try and achieve that.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I dunno. We have 66 points, 8 more than at this stage last season. If we win at the weekend we'll finish on 69 - still 8 points better off than last year and that would have been enough for 4th last year.
There does seem to have been a bit more shape about the team, at times we've moved the ball forward with more purpose. We lack a top striker but that's not news. And we have got better at closing out games. They're a young squad and that costs you points, I certainly see some potential in this lot.
I don't agree that the players aren't buying in to what he's trying to do. Maybe some of them didn't and he got rid of them. As he should have. Auba was trouble and he wasn't performing for us. Didn't he turn up late for the NLD and Arteta dropped him? He was supposed to been our captrain FFS.
But Arteta did take a massive risk by letting him go, and some others, and not adding to the squad in January. It left us threadbare and very vulnerable if we picked up injuries, which we did.


That is a worry but I guess it was inexperience which led to an inability to deal with the pressure. Hopefully on Sunday they'll relax now things aren't in our hands. I don't think Norwich will do us any favours but I hope we at least get our result just in case.

I can only infer from the new contract that Kronke set Europa League qualification as Arteta's target. The announcement came pretty much immediately after that was secured.


Hard to argue with, but to be fair look at the mess he inherited. He's got rid of a lot of dead wood since then and given the team more shape.
We do lose too many games but the number we are winning has increased too. Two seasons ago we only won 14 (holy shit that's awful!). Last year it was 18. This year it's 21, could end up 22. Let's not forget just two years ago we finished on 56 points.

I think he's trying to build something. I do think there's been some improvement over the last couple of years. It might not be fast enough for everyone's liking but I don't want to be another one of those clubs with a revolving door for managers. We don't want to be overly patient either of course, next year it's top 4 or bust for me. But I think Arteta deserves another season to try and achieve that.

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If the Spuds actually won the Champions League (we cannot dismiss that if Kane, Son and Conte all stay put), the fans would never forgive Arteta and the players for handing 4th place to them. I think even you may actually join the "Arteta out" brigade :lol:

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Originally Posted by Chippy

If the Spuds actually won the Champions League (we cannot dismiss that if Kane, Son and Conte all stay put), the fans would never forgive Arteta and the players for handing 4th place to them. I think even you may actually join the "Arteta out" brigade :lol:

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That's not going to happen

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Originally Posted by Bumble

That's not going to happen

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Careful...

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Originally Posted by Letters

I dunno. We have 66 points, 8 more than at this stage last season. If we win at the weekend we'll finish on 69 - still 8 points better off than last year and that would have been enough for 4th last year.
There does seem to have been a bit more shape about the team, at times we've moved the ball forward with more purpose. We lack a top striker but that's not news. And we have got better at closing out games. They're a young squad and that costs you points, I certainly see some potential in this lot.
I don't agree that the players aren't buying in to what he's trying to do. Maybe some of them didn't and he got rid of them. As he should have. Auba was trouble and he wasn't performing for us. Didn't he turn up late for the NLD and Arteta dropped him? He was supposed to been our captrain FFS.
But Arteta did take a massive risk by letting him go, and some others, and not adding to the squad in January. It left us threadbare and very vulnerable if we picked up injuries, which we did.


That is a worry but I guess it was inexperience which led to an inability to deal with the pressure. Hopefully on Sunday they'll relax now things aren't in our hands. I don't think Norwich will do us any favours but I hope we at least get our result just in case.

I can only infer from the new contract that Kronke set Europa League qualification as Arteta's target. The announcement came pretty much immediately after that was secured.


Hard to argue with, but to be fair look at the mess he inherited. He's got rid of a lot of dead wood since then and given the team more shape.
We do lose too many games but the number we are winning has increased too. Two seasons ago we only won 14 (holy shit that's awful!). Last year it was 18. This year it's 21, could end up 22. Let's not forget just two years ago we finished on 56 points.

I think he's trying to build something. I do think there's been some improvement over the last couple of years. It might not be fast enough for everyone's liking but I don't want to be another one of those clubs with a revolving door for managers. We don't want to be overly patient either of course, next year it's top 4 or bust for me. But I think Arteta deserves another season to try and achieve that.

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Not much to disagree with there.

I understand the furstration, and am as gutted as the next man by our implosion when it really mattered, but in the cold light of day 2 days after the Newcastle debacle the only issue that I really have with the manager is that his drastic culling of the squad left us threadbare and simply unable to cope with what we have to accept was an injury crisis at the sharp end of the season. The rest of the criticism can be answered mostly by the reality that we are an inexperienced team with a manager who is learning on the job. Inconsistency was inevitable. People can take issue with the appointment of a rookie manager but when you look at the team that we have put out for the last 8 games it is surprising that we were in the race for top 4 until the penultimate game of the season.

This is not lack of ambition from me. It is simply recognition of where we are.

Where I have some hope is that our team and strategy this season was based on recruiting young players with potential, rather than the finished article. This was deliberate and part of a long term strategy to build a foundation for future success, and when the noise has died down I think that it will remain the case that we are still maybe the best destination for top young talent wanting to try to achieve things with a manager committed to this ideal. Not taking our chance to accelerate this team's development by reaching the CL is a setback, but it is not in context the disaster that some are making it out to be.

I still feel a bit disillusioned with how my emotional backing of this team has turned out (it's the hope that always kills with Arsenal), but looking forwards, we are in better shape than we have been for 5 years and like Letters I think that Arteta has earned the right to see whether this progress will contunue next season.

Happy enough to give him another year, on the basis that we will sign some players who can make a difference up front. Also would like to see the relationship with Saliba mended and have him part of the squad now.

If we start the season under prepared again then my patience might run thin. It’s always our biggest problem, starting slow and taking an age to get going. I want the signings wrapped up early so they actually have a pre-season to work with.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Careful...

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Indeed. We were shitting ourselves when they got to the final in 2019 :lol:

I was anyway!

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Originally Posted by Chippy

Indeed. We were shitting ourselves when they got to the final in 2019 :lol:

I was anyway!

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it was horrible - i only dared look at the result at about 11pm that night - was so relieved

Klopp :bow:

I have wanted him gone since November 2020, and I’ve yet to be convinced that this was precipitous. If it was up to me he and Edu would be out on their arses right now. But it’s not up to me, I have no choice but to be patient with him because he isn’t going anywhere so I can only hope that what I regard as utter dismal failure is turned around and we can break this cycle where we dip into long running losing streaks or failing to score goals.
I don’t see it because I think it’s a reflection of who he is, doesn’t inspire confidence in his players and he is an insecure egotist who is neither liked or respected by his players.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

it was horrible - i only dared look at the result at about 11pm that night - was so relieved

Klopp :bow:

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Possibly arrogant/dismissive of me, but whilst I was deflated when they turned the game around in Amsterdam at no point did I ever believe they would ever win in the final even when they were on top of Liverpool in big parts of that game.
I celebrated when Origi got the second goal but it wasn’t relief it was just confirmation of what I expected to happen

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Originally Posted by Mac76

it was horrible - i only dared look at the result at about 11pm that night - was so relieved

Klopp :bow:

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Me too! I just couldn't watch it :lol:

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I have wanted him gone since November 2020, and I’ve yet to be convinced that this was precipitous. If it was up to me he and Edu would be out on their arses right now. But it’s not up to me, I have no choice but to be patient with him because he isn’t going anywhere so I can only hope that what I regard as utter dismal failure is turned around.

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Out of interest, how would you define success and on what basis?

I think that there are 2 problems with those Gooners who are most vocal about Arteta's regime being a failure. First while its easy to be critical, there is often far less offered regarding what they would do differently, within the constraints of the club. Its easy just to say we should have spent more, or got in a 'world class' manager, without recognising that whoever came in and whoever was bought would always represent a risk. We tried the marquee players route at Arsenal (and we have actually spent a lot over the past few years), and it didn't really work. Other clubs have signed 'big names' (Manure; Spurs) and fallen flat on their faces. This argument fails also to acknowledge just what a mess our club was in after Wenger's long reign.

Second, IMO this argument often seems to be based on Arsenal being in a vacuum. While we may regard ourselves as being a 'top four' club, the reality is that the competition has changed - and strengthened hugely. We can look at games lost this season, but aside from Liverpool and Citeh - outliers that cannot fairly be compared to where we are at present, everyone in the leahue drops points aplenty. I don't but this 'weak opposition this season' argument. We will finish 5th on merit, just short of 4th and not that many points adrift of 3rd. In the real world and with our young team - this is by no means abject failure.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Out of interest, how would you define success and on what basis?

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Well I find it’s less about what is successful in terms of my expectations but more consistent signs that there is a roadmap to success
Signs of success would be increased goal scoring and more signs that we can deal with adversity. It’s already been discussed that we have an atrocious record of getting back into games when we concede the first goal, almost to the point that when we go 1-0 down you might as well call it a day.
Will additional personnel help with that? Well I hope so but at the same time it feels like we’ve not made the best use of the players at our disposal, and often Arteta has a tendency for Galaxy Brained tactical line ups and throwing players in at the deep end where he’s overused others and broken them.
I’ve not seen a progressive learning curve either in our transfer dealings or in the way we approach games and I’m not at all convinced that we are likely to see either.
Ultimately I’m open to being proved wrong because I have no choice and I want to be wrong, I think the upheaval of getting rid of Arteta will be wholly undesirable. I just have no faith in him, and from a psychological perspective I don’t see him as a person I’d go to war for.

I caveat that by saying that I appreciate he’s a relatively young individual on a steep learning curve, it was also obvious Man City and Guardiola think highly of him I think he’s far more tactically astute than Arsene Wenger ever was and I think whatever I say about his relationship with the players it’s clearly not non existent like it was with Unai Emery.
But I think when you look at Klopp who despite having spent more inherited just as big a mess at Liverpool as Arteta inherited, it was already established within the same time frame that Liverpool were a tough side to beat and could destroy teams on the pitch and I do not think we intimidate opposition sides at all

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Originally Posted by IBK

I think that there are 2 problems with those Gooners who are most vocal about Arteta's regime being a failure. First while its easy to be critical, there is often far less offered regarding what they would do differently, within the constraints of the club. Its easy just to say we should have spent more, or got in a 'world class' manager, without recognising that whoever came in and whoever was bought would always represent a risk. We tried the marquee players route at Arsenal (and we have actually spent a lot over the past few years), and it didn't really work. Other clubs have signed 'big names' (Manure; Spurs) and fallen flat on their faces. This argument fails also to acknowledge just what a mess our club was in after Wenger's long reign.

Second, IMO this argument often seems to be based on Arsenal being in a vacuum. While we may regard ourselves as being a 'top four' club, the reality is that the competition has changed - and strengthened hugely. We can look at games lost this season, but aside from Liverpool and Citeh - outliers that cannot fairly be compared to where we are at present, everyone in the leahue drops points aplenty. I don't but this 'weak opposition this season' argument. We will finish 5th on merit, just short of 4th and not that many points adrift of 3rd. In the real world and with our young team - this is by no means abject failure.

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I’m not so sure we are that constrained financially, it’s very clear the self sufficiency model has gone out of the window especially since the pandemic, we are consistently amongst the biggest spenders in the league but when you consider the money spent on full backs, defenders, defensive midfielders etc when the clear problem under Arteta is goal scoring you have to wonder whether it’s been money well spent.

Any team that has the lummox Xhaka as the lynchpin of its midfield is going nowhere. None of the top 7 teams have such a limited player as a constant. None. Arteta is vain and has limited coaching ability, No vision and no visible football philosophy. None of those flaws will be rectified next season. We will be here next May telling you the same thing. Just as we did last May

Its like expecting the Haas team to be amongst the front F1 runners next season. Aint gonna happen

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Well I find it’s less about what is successful in terms of my expectations but more consistent signs that there is a roadmap to success
Signs of success would be increased goal scoring and more signs that we can deal with adversity. It’s already been discussed that we have an atrocious record of getting back into games when we concede the first goal, almost to the point that when we go 1-0 down you might as well call it a day.
Will additional personnel help with that? Well I hope so but at the same time it feels like we’ve not made the best use of the players at our disposal, and often Arteta has a tendency for Galaxy Brained tactical line ups and throwing players in at the deep end where he’s overused others and broken them.
I’ve not seen a progressive learning curve either in our transfer dealings or in the way we approach games and I’m not at all convinced that we are likely to see either.
Ultimately I’m open to being proved wrong because I have no choice and I want to be wrong, I think the upheaval of getting rid of Arteta will be wholly undesirable. I just have no faith in him, and from a psychological perspective I don’t see him as a person I’d go to war for.

I caveat that by saying that I appreciate he’s a relatively young individual on a steep learning curve, it was also obvious Man City and Guardiola think highly of him I think he’s far more tactically astute than Arsene Wenger ever was and I think whatever I say about his relationship with the players it’s clearly not non existent like it was with Unai Emery.
But I think when you look at Klopp who despite having spent more inherited just as big a mess at Liverpool as Arteta inherited, it was already established within the same time frame that Liverpool were a tough side to beat and could destroy teams on the pitch and I do not think we intimidate opposition sides at all

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All good points but I think it's worth pointing out that (some tactical mis-steps aside) Arteta's best 11 this season was good enough for top 4. I agree that our ability to come back from being a goal down is a cause for concern, but when our strongest team was available the strategy was clearly to score first and then defend a lead and this in turn speaks to the manager either not resolving an effective game plan, or not having the personnel to deal with a low block from the opposition. Both of these can be expected to improve going forwards (and it's no coincidence that we are clearly in the market for a physically imposing CF who can play with his back to goal, hold up play and be a target for crosses). In terms of team building, while our goals against deteriorated in the final third of the season it is a sad fact that our first choice back 5 was only available to the manager for (I think) less than 10 games this season. While they were fit, Arteta's game plan was pretty effective.

I hope very much that the fact that second string players by and large did not let the manager down when called upon is not a lesson missed by our manager or obscured by the general malaise of the whole team at the final hurdle. Rotation is something we must see next season, and if the mistake is repeated then I will be more convinced that Arteta is not the man to take us any further.

Where I do take issue with you is the lack of a progressive learning curve. I think we have seen this over the time that Arteta has been with us. His first incarnation once he was settled was to make us hard to beat and he achieved this and won an FA Cup playing defensively. There is no doubt this season that he made strides in making us a more effective force going forwards. I accept that this could be regarded as self-inflicted, but it's hardly a surprise that with one of our senior strikers offloaded (and on very poor form before this), and the other a busted flush as a goal scorer, goals were increasingly difficult to find.

I'm not sure either that the comparison with Klopp is necessarily a fair one. I don't think that Liverpool were anything like as much of a mess when he took over - at least off the pitch and at executive level. We have to remember that Arsenal were a basket case, badly damaged by Raul Sanllehi, with a vacuum in terms of executive and director level experience when he left. No coherent strategy. No identity. As a rookie, Arteta had to deal with far more entrenched problems than Klopp, who had a wealth of experience to draw on. It really is no surprise that it has taken much longer to steady the ship at Arsenal, and indeed the 'soft' achievements of Arteta in terms of identity; a playing style; healing some of the deep rifts in the fan base and (after time admittedly) putting in place a cohesive recruitment strategy are important signs that there is now a far better and more stable platform to push on than at any time since Wenger left. We don't need to look any further than the shambles at Manure - or even the constant churn of managers down the road from us to see the manager's achievements in some context.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I’m not so sure we are that constrained financially, it’s very clear the self sufficiency model has gone out of the window especially since the pandemic, we are consistently amongst the biggest spenders in the league but when you consider the money spent on full backs, defenders, defensive midfielders etc when the clear problem under Arteta is goal scoring you have to wonder whether it’s been money well spent.

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We are constrained financially by comparison with those teams we regard as our rivals - Citeh; Chelsea and Manure (and now Newcastle). We are also constrained by our lack of CL football money for 5 years. Most importantly in terms of my question about what the club's detractors would suggest as a road map for success, we are constrained from simply buying a team of players who will guaratee success.

As I said, we have spent big, and unwisely, and our transfer business has been lamentable, but last Summer was encouraging trasfer wise, and I think the club have earned some optimism that the holes in the squad will be addressed effectively this Summer.

We are not being outspent by Liverpool or Chelsea (Chelsea have been constrained for at least 3 seasons now). We just waste our money. We did not improve our midfield or attack and instead spent on areas we were already stocked like in defence. Has Ramsdale improved us significantly, has Ben White?. Gabriel has been our most dependable defender and he scores goals too. Would Saliba a French international not have been a better addition this season instead of the 50m spent on White that could have given us more bodies in midfield where we are weakest. We spent 75m on Pepe a player not wanted by Emery at the time and discarded by Arteta almost since he arrived. What the other teams like City and Chelsea do is offer higher wages than we generally do but then again we had our 350kpw man (Ozil)for over 4 years until last year and promptly replaced him with Auba. We comfortably outspend the Spuds. Arsenal have no business pleading poverty.


We are a badly run business enterprise saved only by the fact that despite fiscal recklessness we are still a money spinner thanks to the captive addicted fanbase prepared to leverage themselves to keep supporting the club. It is a dwindling fanbase mind you as the new generation outside the UK shores are not keen to line up behind a never do well entity. We will lose the next generation as surely as the previous generation were lured to Arsenal by the exploits of Bergkamp, Henry and Vieira.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

We will be here next May telling you the same thing. Just as we did last May.

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What exactly were you telling us last May?
I looked through the season predictions thread and you didn’t post.
What was your expectation for this season in terms of league position and what was that based on?

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Originally Posted by Chippy

Indeed. We were shitting ourselves when they got to the final in 2019 :lol:

I was anyway!

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You're welcome :lol:

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

We are not being outspent by Liverpool or Chelsea (Chelsea have been constrained for at least 3 seasons now). We just waste our money. We did not improve our midfield or attack and instead spent on areas we were already stocked like in defence. Has Ramsdale improved us significantly, has Ben White?. Gabriel has been our most dependable defender and he scores goals too. Would Saliba a French international not have been a better addition this season instead of the 50m spent on White that could have given us more bodies in midfield where we are weakest. We spent 75m on Pepe a player not wanted by Emery at the time and discarded by Arteta almost since he arrived. What the other teams like City and Chelsea do is offer higher wages than we generally do but then again we had our 350kpw man (Ozil)for over 4 years until last year and promptly replaced him with Auba. We comfortably outspend the Spuds. Arsenal have no business pleading poverty.


We are a badly run business enterprise saved only by the fact that despite fiscal recklessness we are still a money spinner thanks to the captive addicted fanbase prepared to leverage themselves to keep supporting the club. It is a dwindling fanbase mind you as the new generation outside the UK shores are not keen to line up behind a never do well entity. We will lose the next generation as surely as the previous generation were lured to Arsenal by the exploits of Bergkamp, Henry and Vieira.

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First, in terms of player purchases we have been outspent by Chelsea over the past 5 seasons. Also (FWIW) the teams above us have all spent significantly more on managers during this period.

Second, you reference Liverpool - who have managed to hit the motherload with a generational manager who has been a perfect fit for that club (a bit like early Wenger for us) and is therefore IMO an unrealistic comparison - unless you assume that Arsenal should have achieved perfection - and Sp*rs, who despite spending ridiculous amounts on different managers (up to 2021 they had paid £90M in payouts to sacked managers over the previous 10 years and this figure has increased since) have won precisely nothing and despite scraping CL football this season will finish a maximum of 4 points above us.

That said, I don't think anyone would argue that in terms of how the club is run we haven't been a shambles for most of this period. Our net spend figures have been poor because yes we have made some bad player investments, and in particular have taken big losses on outgoing players rather than this being a source of income as it has been for Liverpool.

But I think we need to see this in context. The very reason for many of our most eye catching transfer disasters has been the quick fix - hoping that spunking cash on 'star' names will bring success. So in many ways your legitimate criticism of our transfer policy up until last year is a compelling argument for the change in approach that we are now seeing at Arsenal - trying to recruit young talent to build medium term success in a new project. Unfortunately, because of mistakes at executive and at football level we were in a mess, and our losses on players who did not fit the Areta project is a result of this.

Finally, none of the most critical analysis of the club acknowledges the massively damaging effect of losing a generational manager whose influence over the club was total. The convulsions of this have taken years to address - not least because Wenger was coach, manager director of football and effectively part chief executive at our club. We can criticise the lack of planning at board level - the further destabilising effect of Gazidis jumping ship; the inexperience of our owners - all we like, but it doesn;t change the fact that we are having to come back from a situation of near total chaos.

Your criticisms of individual players may be valid in some ways, but in others ignore the fact that in many cases they were bought for their potential; can be expected to improve and are part of a development project that for me at least is the sensible way to try to progress.

We have been a badly run business enterprise, but it's unfair to ignore the improved direction of travel over the past year, and too soon IMO to write the current regime off...or for doom-mongery regarding the future.

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Originally Posted by Shaqiri Is Boss

You're welcome :lol:

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:scarf::tiphat:

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Possibly arrogant/dismissive of me, but whilst I was deflated when they turned the game around in Amsterdam at no point did I ever believe they would ever win in the final even when they were on top of Liverpool in big parts of that game.
I celebrated when Origi got the second goal but it wasn’t relief it was just confirmation of what I expected to happen

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The Ajax game was on my birthday and my son told me Ajax were 2-0 up. A premature extra celebratory drink turned to despair when his face said it all at 2-3. Talk about ruining one's Birthday :(

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Originally Posted by IBK

I think that there are 2 problems with those Gooners who are most vocal about Arteta's regime being a failure. First while its easy to be critical, there is often far less offered regarding what they would do differently, within the constraints of the club.

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what I would have done differently:

1. not alienate/dismiss some squad members, e.g. Pepe, so that when they're called upon they can't give their best
2. have more than Eddie and Laca to rely upon up front since Jan (yes Eddie's come good on occasions but he's not consistent enough to rely upon all the time) - instead of buying Taveres we coul d have signed a striker - also we should not have loaned Balogun out
3. not sold a highly useful utility player like Chambers which means we've been stuck with Cedric
4. not have made Xhaka first on the team sheet, when he's cost us a lot of points this season through sendings off and goal-creating errors
5. not have run players like Saka into the ground
6. adopted more sensible formations for certain games, e.g. he should have played a back five away at Spuds
7. not have sanctioned introducing stupid godawful anthems which have just put more pressure on the players and made us look really patehtic Liverpool wannabes
8. kept Saliba here instead of putting him out to loan again

enough for you?

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Originally Posted by Chippy

The Ajax game was on my birthday and my son told me Ajax were 2-0 up. A premature extra celebratory drink turned to despair when his face said it all at 2-3. Talk about ruining one's Birthday :(

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I was travelling to a jolly/very important business trip to Edinburgh.
I flew, which was fun. When i took off it was 2-0 and I thought "Phew! Well at least that's one thing I don't need to worry about".
We landed, I turned my phone on and... :sick:

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Originally Posted by Letters

I was travelling to a jolly/very important business trip to Edinburgh.
I flew, which was fun. When i took off it was 2-0 and I thought "Phew! Well at least that's one thing I don't need to worry about".
We landed, I turned my phone on and... :sick:

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Many Gooners shared the pain that night :sick:

Thankfully Liverpool stopped them :scarf:

Please God let them get knocked out early next year :pray: I wouldn't fancy that again!

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Originally Posted by IBK

First, in terms of player purchases we have been outspent by Chelsea over the past 5 seasons. Also (FWIW) the teams above us have all spent significantly more on managers during this period.

Second, you reference Liverpool - who have managed to hit the motherload with a generational manager who has been a perfect fit for that club (a bit like early Wenger for us) and is therefore IMO an unrealistic comparison - unless you assume that Arsenal should have achieved perfection - and Sp*rs, who despite spending ridiculous amounts on different managers (up to 2021 they had paid £90M in payouts to sacked managers over the previous 10 years and this figure has increased since) have won precisely nothing and despite scraping CL football this season will finish a maximum of 4 points above us.

That said, I don't think anyone would argue that in terms of how the club is run we haven't been a shambles for most of this period. Our net spend figures have been poor because yes we have made some bad player investments, and in particular have taken big losses on outgoing players rather than this being a source of income as it has been for Liverpool.

But I think we need to see this in context. The very reason for many of our most eye catching transfer disasters has been the quick fix - hoping that spunking cash on 'star' names will bring success. So in many ways your legitimate criticism of our transfer policy up until last year is a compelling argument for the change in approach that we are now seeing at Arsenal - trying to recruit young talent to build medium term success in a new project. Unfortunately, because of mistakes at executive and at football level we were in a mess, and our losses on players who did not fit the Areta project is a result of this.

Finally, none of the most critical analysis of the club acknowledges the massively damaging effect of losing a generational manager whose influence over the club was total. The convulsions of this have taken years to address - not least because Wenger was coach, manager director of football and effectively part chief executive at our club. We can criticise the lack of planning at board level - the further destabilising effect of Gazidis jumping ship; the inexperience of our owners - all we like, but it doesn;t change the fact that we are having to come back from a situation of near total chaos.

Your criticisms of individual players may be valid in some ways, but in others ignore the fact that in many cases they were bought for their potential; can be expected to improve and are part of a development project that for me at least is the sensible way to try to progress.

We have been a badly run business enterprise, but it's unfair to ignore the improved direction of travel over the past year, and too soon IMO to write the current regime off...or for doom-mongery regarding the future.

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https://www.skysports.com/football/n...nd-over-decade

Net spend league for the last 10 seasons. No if and buts, we are way above Pool. Its nobodys fault but our own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mac76

what I would have done differently:

1. not alienate/dismiss some squad members, e.g. Pepe, so that when they're called upon they can't give their best
2. have more than Eddie and Laca to rely upon up front since Jan (yes Eddie's come good on occasions but he's not consistent enough to rely upon all the time) - instead of buying Taveres we coul d have signed a striker - also we should not have loaned Balogun out
3. not sold a highly useful utility player like Chambers which means we've been stuck with Cedric
4. not have made Xhaka first on the team sheet, when he's cost us a lot of points this season through sendings off and goal-creating errors
5. not have run players like Saka into the ground
6. adopted more sensible formations for certain games, e.g. he should have played a back five away at Spuds
7. not have sanctioned introducing stupid godawful anthems which have just put more pressure on the players and made us look really patehtic Liverpool wannabes
8. kept Saliba here instead of putting him out to loan again

enough for you?

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While there might be some legitimate complaints there re Arteta's team decisions, you are missing the bigger point, and ignoring the bigger picture. This is the fact that the team and the club needed stabilising big time after years of drift and executive level turmoil. We needed to re-discover an identity; a playing style and a cohesive strategy, and to a greater or lesser extent progress has undoubtedly been made on all three of these.

Had we made top 4, I think that most, if not all of your complaints would seem like obvious nit picking (there isn't a Gooner in the land who would have expected to achieve better than CL football this season). Does the fact that we will almost certainly fall short of this and end up in 5th by a very fine margin legitimise them? Possibly, but it's very easy to be wise after the event. The problem with focussing on individual player decisions is that there is no way of knowing what the alternative would have achieved. For example, Pepe has almost literally shown nothing when he has been given (albeit limited) opportunities this season, and our best player plays in his position. It's a fact of football life that back up players need to force their way into the side, and Pepe has singularly failed to do so (this must include the training pitch). IIRC Callum Chambers played poorly on occasion last season, while Cedric was OK for large parts of this one. You could argue that Saliba has developed way more on loan at Marseille than he would have done as a third/fourth choice CB at Arsenal . If you think that Eddie is not consistent enough, it is odd that you cite the loan of Balogun - who is miles behind him in terms of development - as a managerial mis-step. I'm not even going there with Xhaka who BTW has a single red this season - as he will always be a lightening rod for the team's defeiciencies.

I've always said that Arteta has made mistakes (unsurprising for a rookie), and his gamble with a small squad has ultimately fallen short, but I am yet to see a suggestion for a realistic alternative manager/general strategy for the club that would have given us more to build on at the present time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

https://www.skysports.com/football/n...nd-over-decade

Net spend league for the last 10 seasons. No if and buts, we are way above Pool. Its nobodys fault but our own.

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...and the place I suggested that Liverpool has spent more than us is where, exactly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBK

...and the place I suggested that Liverpool has spent more than us is where, exactly?

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FFS - it doesn’t matter, just defend that position!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xhaka Can’t

FFS - it doesn’t matter, just defend that position!

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Defend what position? Haven't seen any posts doing much more than moaning without addressing the points I have made about the progress achieved in the context of where we started from.

I remember the Klopp project comparisons at the start of Arteta’s reign.

He had them in a CL final at the end of year 3…

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBK

I'm not even going there with Xhaka who BTW has a single red this season

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in the Premier League maybe, but he was sent off against Liverpool in the cup don't forget

he's been sent off more times than any other PL player since he began playing for us, he also has served suspensions for getting too many yellows - so far he's had 52 in the PL in total

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mac76

in the Premier League maybe, but he was sent off against Liverpool in the cup don't forget

he's been sent off more times than any other PL player since he began playing for us, he also has served suspensions for getting too many yellows - so far he's had 52 in the PL in total

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We've already been here and you won't be dissuaded from your Xhaka hate so I won't try...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I remember the Klopp project comparisons at the start of Arteta’s reign.

He had them in a CL final at the end of year 3…

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...and was regarded as one of the world's best coaches with 14 years of top flight experience when he arrived at Liverpool. Do we really think this is a fair or realistic comparison with Arteta?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IBK

We've already been here and you won't be dissuaded from your Xhaka hate so I won't try...

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in other words you're dismissing the evidence i just gave you because it doesn't fit with your world view - are you a Tory minister by any chance?

and in general your attempted brushing aside of Arteta's failings in favour of some vague stuff around 'bringing the club together' might have some merit but he's still responsible for multiple failures

he accidentally stumbled on players like Saka, Martinelli, ESR and now Elneny after ignoring them for a long time, it's not been a strategic thing to bring them in

he doesn't recognise when players are ready and he's doing the same with Balogun and especially Saliba, instead relying on too few playes to get the job done

IBK always argues in good faith. The opposite of you. The nerve, to accuse somebody of dismissing evidence. As for world views, good lord. That's priceless. Especially as you underpin the comedy with a reference to Tories, the ultimate fake paradigm which you buy into so easily, despite all the... evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mac76

in other words you're dismissing the evidence i just gave you because it doesn't fit with your world view - are you a Tory minister by any chance?

and in general your attempted brushing aside of Arteta's failings in favour of some vague stuff around 'bringing the club together' might have some merit but he's still responsible for multiple failures

he accidentally stumbled on players like Saka, Martinelli, ESR and now Elneny after ignoring them for a long time, it's not been a strategic thing to bring them in

he doesn't recognise when players are ready and he's doing the same with Balogun and especially Saliba, instead relying on too few playes to get the job done

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I didn't dismiss the 'evidence'. What I dismissed was any prospect of a reasonable debate with you about Xhaka - and your own dismissal of what is an improved disciplinary record from this player this season speaks to this. Neither have I brushed aside Arteta's failings. Far from it. But this is the problem with 'absolutist' arguments isn't it? Pointing out areas where Arteta has made progress is brushing aside failings. It's not - they are 2 different things. You don't like or rate Arteta - fair enough - youre entitled to your opinions. But if you think that the club hasn't made progress under him (and success at any football club is about more than just picking players) then I think that your antipathy is making you, not me, pretty one-eyed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mac76

in other words you're dismissing the evidence i just gave you because it doesn't fit with your world view - are you a Tory minister by any chance?

and in general your attempted brushing aside of Arteta's failings in favour of some vague stuff around 'bringing the club together' might have some merit but he's still responsible for multiple failures

he accidentally stumbled on players like Saka, Martinelli, ESR and now Elneny after ignoring them for a long time, it's not been a strategic thing to bring them in

he doesn't recognise when players are ready and he's doing the same with Balogun and especially Saliba, instead relying on too few playes to get the job done

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Also your comments re the above players again shows a lack of balance. I agree with you that we were left with too small a squd/first teamers to get the job done this season, but even this needs to be balanced by the key injories we suffered at crucial times. Also, its interesting that you focus on the manager's apparent inability to recognise young talent while ignoring the fact that this season he has built a team around them. Is it not also fair to recognise the improvements that they have made (or do you put this solely down to the players themselves with no outside influence)?