The Liverpool Thread 2017/2018 featuring Jurgen Klopp

Can someone summarize that.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Can someone summarize that.

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The Sun were right all along.

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Originally Posted by Suarez Is Boss

With the police specifically, it isn't just that Duckenfield, an inexperienced officer in dealing with a football match, panicked an opened the exit gate, for which in a natural bottleneck which is what the Leppings Lane turnstiles were like meant that there was always going to be a surge of people in the central pen, but that even after they (and him especially) had realised their mistake they didn't do anything to try and mend the situation.

In opening the gate they defied various stewards who knew what would happen should they open the gate. They had changed the procedures dealing with slowly getting fans to get the the stadium, which combined with a problem on the M62 meant there was already a surge of people outside the ground; one shown time and again not to be especially rowdy, aggressive or out of the ordinary, but the sheer numbers were starting to cause problems. As I say, it was a natural bottleneck, once in you couldn't get out. There are even questions as to why a bigger fanbase would be given a smaller end of the ground with far more archaic infrastructure- the answers being geographically it was easier.

Once the gate had been opened they didn't make any attempt to direct fans into the adjacent pens which were almost empty but continued to allow them to go into the already overcrowded central pen. CCTV has shown that there wasn't a rush and fans simply walked through what was a dark tunnel into the centre. There was plenty of time for them to take control and diffuse the situation.

When it was becoming obvious that there was something wrong - Duckenfield was inside the police box in clear line of sight to the end in question and continued to do nothing. There are still questions as to what happened to the CCTV tapes at this time which were conveniently stolen. Even though they had a clear view of what was going on they continued to do nothing. By the time the game had started it was already a disaster, but still there was no leadership or guidance from the top and the police on the ground thought it was a pitch invasion and hooliganism, hence there are many reports of people being pushed back into the pen by police regardless of what they were seeing for themselves. Even by the time people had spilled out onto the pitch, the police formed barricades to try and stop them from making their way away from the crush. The only calls for more officers were to help shore up the barricade, not to go and help anyone. By the time ambulances arrived, they still thought they were dealing with an invasion and only allowed one ambulance on the pitch, despite there being two dozen outside the ground.

And despite seeing all of this and ordering the gate to be opened, Duckenfield openly lied and so started the cover up. The triumvirate of police, government and media went into action. And as we now have it confirmed, statements were altered on a massive level. Even the bodies housed in the gym were treated like criminals, the families questioned as if they were suspects and blood taken from children to test for alcohol levels.

But that it just the police, without getting into the fact the stadium didn't even have a safety certificate, the 3:15pm cut off and how there was very nearly the same incident a year before at the same ground.

And ever since then there has been no culpability from the police, and why it simply isn't a case that it was one gate and from there it was unavoidable. Had it been a case that he made a mistake and tried to rectify it from the start, then it may be a different issue, but they didn't, they compounded the situation and went in on themselves in order to blame the fans.

And I know by now that isn't particularly succinct or brief, but I'm a waffler.... although I didn't think I typed that much...

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:gp:

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Originally Posted by Syn

Look. It's really not that much effort to type out a paragraph. If you want to have a go, please do. I really do have no time for this "it'd take too much effort" approach - because do you know what I think about people who pull shit like that? I think they're a bunch of fucking charlatans that actually don't have a clue about what they're arguing about and so are avoiding it.

And there's no doubt there are a lot of these new scousers and Liverpool fans who know it's fashionable to take the extreme side of the Liverpool argument. I do get that - super fans, well done to them. But when there's a discussion on it and you're trying to argue that it's laughable to even contemplate a bunch of football fans (not necessarily those dead) should accept a fraction of blame for an event, I'm going to need a proper explanation. Otherwise, I'm immediately thinking 'full of shit'.

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I wasn't trying to say that I didn't want to debate it or that I couldn't be bothered, just that I have gone into it in detail before on here, and I get the feeling I will do so again. I would just rather people look into it themselves and draw their own conclusions and not just necessarily jump on whatever I say, because I don't doubt I don't know everything about it, or probably ever will. I'm not trying to be arsey with anyone, but I am naturally suspicious of trying to explain it on an internet forum, given it is a rival (well, once upon a time...) fans' forum and I get the feeling nbn was just trying to WUM the last time I went through it.

I don't doubt there were drunk fans there and there were ticketless fans there, there are at any sporting (or non sporting for that matter) event before or since. But both the Taylor report and the one released today have said there isn't any evidence that they were a contributory factor to what happened. There are images and accounts that the people outside the gates weren't causing any undue commotion and certainly not to any degree as it was initially portrayed. There is no evidence to suggest they surged toward the gate, but with it being a natural bottleneck the numbers were starting grow and they took the decision, in order to relieve the pressure outside, to open the gate and let them inside. From there, the police lose any sort of control and put the blame on the fans, even though that has since now been emphatically discredited. And after that they treated the bodies, including children, as criminals and the families as suspects.

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Originally Posted by Suarez Is Boss

But that it just the police, without getting into the fact the stadium didn't even have a safety certificate, the 3:15pm cut off and how there was very nearly the same incident a year before at the same ground.

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IMO this is a key point and one I was making above. Football fans are idiots, frankly. I don't believe the fans that way were any more idiotic or drunk than football fans often are. Or any less...

Idiots + Incompetent Police + Terraces + Cages to stop fans spilling onto the pitch...it's a recipe for disaster, one which it's amazing didn't happen more often. It took an incident like this to make things safer and whatever you think of all seater stadia a similar incident couldn't happen in one.

It does sound like there was a multitude of fuck-ups from the police who then pointed to everyone but themselves to blame and then covered their tracks.

Liverpool fans, especially the relatives and friends of those who died, have been understandably upset by attempts to deflect blame - particularly when the blame has been deflected onto those who died. But I'm not convinced that the fans were entirely blameless because...well, like I said at the top football fans are idiots.

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Originally Posted by Letters

IMO this is a key point and one I was making above. Football fans are idiots, frankly. I don't believe the fans that way were any more idiotic or drunk than football fans often are. Or any less...

Idiots + Incompetent Police + Terraces + Cages to stop fans spilling onto the pitch...it's a recipe for disaster, one which it's amazing didn't happen more often. It took an incident like this to make things safer and whatever you think of all seater stadia a similar incident couldn't happen in one.

It does sound like there was a multitude of fuck-ups from the police who then pointed to everyone but themselves to blame and then covered their tracks.

Liverpool fans, especially the relatives and friends of those who died, have been understandably upset by attempts to deflect blame - particularly when the blame has been deflected onto those who died. But I'm not convinced that the fans were entirely blameless because...well, like I said at the top football fans are idiots.

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As I say, if there had been some culpability from the establishment (and that includes police, the safety authority and the media) then it may be a different issue. But it has taken till now for there to be a proper acknowledgement that many (if not all) of the things the families were calling for and asking about were actually right. There are some things that are now known to be criminal, with the altering of evidence, but even before that, it is surely a case of negligence on the part of the police. They didn't just make a mistake in opening the gate, but they compounded the situation and many of them did nothing did nothing to help solve it, preferring to find ways to get themselves out of the shit, to this day. It wasn't just an accident, but failings on many levels and failing that could and should have been avoided quite easily.

But the fact it had happened at Hillsborough many times before, including in the very same fixture the year earlier shows to me there were inherent failures with the ground itself, ones which were known about and which weren't acted upon until it was too late. As I say, the ground didn't even have a valid safety certificate, how someone hasn't been prosecuted for that alone is baffling.

Worse than simply not admitting fault, is covering it up for two decades and trying their very best to blame those who they should have been protecting, aided by those in the media and in government. And I bet most people would still believe the initial cover story, which is the saddest thing of all.

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Originally Posted by Letters

IMO this is a key point and one I was making above. Football fans are idiots, frankly. I don't believe the fans that way were any more idiotic or drunk than football fans often are. Or any less...

Idiots + Incompetent Police + Terraces + Cages to stop fans spilling onto the pitch...it's a recipe for disaster, one which it's amazing didn't happen more often. It took an incident like this to make things safer and whatever you think of all seater stadia a similar incident couldn't happen in one.

It does sound like there was a multitude of fuck-ups from the police who then pointed to everyone but themselves to blame and then covered their tracks.

Liverpool fans, especially the relatives and friends of those who died, have been understandably upset by attempts to deflect blame - particularly when the blame has been deflected onto those who died. But I'm not convinced that the fans were entirely blameless because...well, like I said at the top football fans are idiots.

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I suspect most would acknowledge that. Where I was coming from when you stated the 'football fans are idiots' thing first time was that there had to have been a particular screw-up here for it to end with so many deaths, as presumably overattendance and hooliganism was rife across the scale. Clearly there was a real general problem with stadia and match attendance in that era, not aided by the fans. But were the fans a real, significant, tipping factor for the deaths actually occurring? I guess that's what the families want to be clear of.

Twitter trolls bringing up Heysel. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Twitter trolls bringing up Heysel. :rolleyes:

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Titter full of idiots tbh.

Someone explain Heysel