When will Arteta be sacked by

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Originally Posted by Mac76

How does Forest's distant history make any difference to how they're doing now, or what people's expectations were for this season? (clue: it doesn't)

My point (as you well know) is that no-one was saying they had the third best team in the league at the start if the season but there they are, under Santo they're immeasurably better than under previous managers

And if 'is not' isn't a definitive statement I don't know what is

Again, give it up, you really don't always have to have the last word you know

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Are Forest going to win the league? No they aren’t: So I don’t really see how that refutes my argument.

If i said the team that finishes third must by definition have the third best squad in the league you’d have a point. But I said to win the major prizes like the league it’s a result of having either the strongest or second strongest squad in the league, only to someone like you would that seem a remotely controversial statement. Citing an outlier case to say anyone can win the league if they have a good enough coach is nonsense.

Plus Don’t tell me what I know, if you can’t make what you’re saying clear.

“You just keep coming back and wearing them down till they give up and you can convince yourself that you won”

That’s sounding more like you at the moment chief.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Are Forest going to win the league? No they aren’t: So I don’t really see how that refutes my argument.

If i said the team that finishes third must by definition have the third best squad in the league you’d have a point. But I said to win the major prizes like the league it’s a result of having either the strongest or second strongest squad in the league, only to someone like you would that seem a remotely controversial statement. Citing an outlier case to say anyone can win the league if they have a good enough coach is nonsense.

Plus Don’t tell me what I know, if you can’t make you’re saying clear.

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What really happens is you twist an argument away from the orgignal point in order to escape from admitting you're wrong.

The original point was whether a manager with a current squad in place, could change tactics and approaches mid-season to noticeably improve how it played

It was nothing to do with winning the league

To quote you: "we’ve been coached to play a certain way thus making it difficult to make big adaptation mid season."

So again... Everton alone proves you're wrong. I don't need to say any more than that.

And so, again... give it up

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Originally Posted by Mac76

What really happens is you twist an argument away from the orgignal point in order to escape from admitting you're wrong.

The original point was whether a manager with a current squad in place, could change tactics and approaches mid-season to noticeably improve how it played

It was nothing to do with winning the league

To quote you: "we’ve been coached to play a certain way thus making it difficult to make big adaptation mid season."

So again... Everton alone proves you're wrong. I don't need to say any more than that.

And so, again... give it up

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:lol: You’re the king of projection aren’t you. You accuse me of shifting the goal posts when that’s exactly what you always do

So Here’s what actually happened

I said that when you drill a team to play in a certain way and you buy players specifically to allow you to play that way, you aren’t going to be able to significantly change things mid season

You said “I don’t agree what about Everton”

I said Everton weren’t playing a system under Throat Cancer boy they were just playing ultra defensively

I also went on to say to argue against your point that a good coach that can effect these changes, that there’s a limit to this. You can get a relegation threatened side up to say upper mid table. But actually when it comes to a sustained title challenge you need the players as well. That’s relevant to our situation (we don’t have the players)

Admitting I was wrong would necessitate me thinking I was wrong

If you want to believe that this team can adapt to playing in a completely different way just like that I have a bridge to sell you, if you believe that it’ll make a fuck of difference without our forward line I have two bridges.

As far as I can see you, you don’t even have an argument. This is just a pathetic attempt on your part to say “see how you like it”. But I can carry this on as long as you like. I wouldn’t be making the same point for the last week or so if I didn’t think I was right.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

As far as I can see you, you don’t even have an argument. This is just a pathetic attempt on your part to say “see how you like it”. But I can carry this on as long as you like. I wouldn’t be making the same point for the last week or so if I didn’t think I was right.

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You might think you're right (though I suspect you know you're boxed in to an indefensible position and just don't want to admit it, hence the twisting of the argument) Everton proves you're wrong, sorry but it's that simple. Ofc Dyche had an approach and tactics, he also recruited a fair few players to fit that system, so that's what Moyes had to work with and yet he's transformed them.

And actually if you want to talk about top of the table (even though it wasn't your original point), their form from when he took over has them second https://www.planetfootball.com/premi...e-since-return

:haha:

And yes, the only truth in your post is that we all know you will sit on this board 24/7, immediately contradicting everything because it's what you do. God forbid you might actually log off and go do something with your life.

And as for projecting, coming from someone who enjoys profiling people on the basis of a heavily edited documentary or a single messageboard post from people you don't even know, that's more than a little rich.

Anyway, enough already

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Originally Posted by Mac76

You might think you're right (though I suspect you know you're boxed in to an indefensible position and just don't want to admit it, hence the twisting of the argument) Everton proves you're wrong, sorry but it's that simple. Ofc Dyche had an approach and tactics, he also recruited a fair few players to fit that system, so that's what Moyes had to work with and yet he's transformed them.

And actually if you want to talk about top of the table (even though it wasn't your original point), their form from when he took over has them second https://www.planetfootball.com/premi...e-since-return

:haha:

And yes, the only truth in your post is that we all know you will sit on this board 24/7, immediately contradicting everything because it's what you do. God forbid you might actually log off and go do something with your life.

And as for projecting, coming from someone who enjoys profiling people on the basis of a heavily edited documentary or a single messageboard post from people you don't even know, that's more than a little rich.

Anyway, enough already

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Using that word contradiction again, very telling. But actually given you started this argument, you’re the one contradicting me. Unlike you I don’t mind that, but to repeat myself again if I think I’m right I’m going to say so.

You asserting Everton proves me wrong is just that an assertion. And it’s a desperate one, I think people here are pushing back on what I’m saying a) because I’m not always that polite about the way I say it and b) don’t want to admit that everyone is powerless to change what’s happening on the pitch. It’s a fucked up situation and there’s plenty of blame to go around, but none of that does anything to change the situation.

I don’t know you, you’re right. I can only form an impression of someone from what they say. I would be very surprised if you’re not the smug self-satisfied lefty liberal who looks down on people despite not being anywhere as intelligent as they think they are. You could just be coming across that way, and actually outside of this place you could be a thoughtful individual who looks at each individual issue on its merits and doesn’t immediately side with the tribe according to what vibes you happen to like.

But there’s a complete absence of a thoughtful smart individual on here who doesn’t virtue signal and have a snotty condescending attitude to people about whose lives you know nothing. The same goes for Arteta, maybe there is a side to him that’s a people person, who can hold eye contact, isn’t passive aggressive etc….but that’s all I’ve seen.

I think the hostility comes because you don’t like the mirror being held up, you keep thinking it’s your duty to “call me out” for something or other, and you don’t like that I comment on the absurd inappropriate hypocrisy of it.

And I’m out at the moment, it may take up a massive part of your day but it doesn’t mine. What are you doing with your life, obviously whatever it is, is less important than trying the impossible task of trying to wear me down


As for your silly point about Everton being 2nd in the form table since Moyes came back, I’ll even do you the respect of believing you know the difference between a form table and an actual table. A league season is 38 games, not 6-8. But i guess if your need to win is strong enough, you’ll use anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QpKF1PHL7g

Kimmich seems like a done deal. That gives us nothing we don't already have. Word is Partey wants a one year extension, I'd give it to him forget about Kimmich, or get rid of Merino and then bring in Kimmich.

Sounds Like Liverpool will be favourites for Isak if anyone goes for him at all at the crazy prices being touted.

Sesko doesn't give us anything other than what we already see week in, week out.

Zubimendi - same. You can slot any number of talented players into that system but it's still a system that lacks creativity, so the talent is wasted.

Tierney's too direct, so he's out.

Like the video details, anyone who has a bit of independence is out.

Rice told us how it is - managed down to the last detail.

I haven't really bothered with the whole Arteta in/ out debate, mainly because he's going nowhere. That debate isn't worth having. A more useful debate is can Arteta change? Can he react to the most welcome demise of Pep's fashion and dress according to the new trends in this league. Or can he set a trend himself, like Wenger did?

I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. Because all we've seen is the same thing over and over. Could mean Arteta doesn't want to change, could mean he can't. Next season he needs to show some evidence he's not going to do a late-era Wenger and suspend us in limbo for the next decade.

I don't have much faith in him changing, I thought he showed signs of learning when earlier in the season he was subbing Saka on 70 mins a few times instead of running him into the ground and was rotating Leo and Martinelli, but in general he hasn't shown any signs of learning, the failure to get in any attacking players being the obvious example.

It's a big reason why taking him on for his first job was a mistake, maybe if he'd had a smaller club he'd have more willing to learn but at Arsenal he's acting like he's the finished article but he isn't, nowhere near

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Originally Posted by Mac76

I don't have much faith in him changing, I thought he showed signs of learning when earlier in the season he was subbing Saka on 70 mins a few times instead of running him into the ground and was rotating Leo and Martinelli, but in general he hasn't shown any signs of learning, the failure to get in any attacking players being the obvious example.

It's a big reason why taking him on for his first job was a mistake, maybe if he'd had a smaller club he'd have more willing to learn but at Arsenal he's acting like he's the finished article but he isn't, nowhere near

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Even if he didn't change yet somehow managed to win, I don't think I'd want to watch it.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QpKF1PHL7g

Kimmich seems like a done deal. That gives us nothing we don't already have. Word is Partey wants a one year extension, I'd give it to him forget about Kimmich, or get rid of Merino and then bring in Kimmich.

Sounds Like Liverpool will be favourites for Isak if anyone goes for him at all at the crazy prices being touted.

Sesko doesn't give us anything other than what we already see week in, week out.

Zubimendi - same. You can slot any number of talented players into that system but it's still a system that lacks creativity, so the talent is wasted.

Tierney's too direct, so he's out.

Like the video details, anyone who has a bit of independence is out.

Rice told us how it is - managed down to the last detail.

I haven't really bothered with the whole Arteta in/ out debate, mainly because he's going nowhere. That debate isn't worth having. A more useful debate is can Arteta change? Can he react to the most welcome demise of Pep's fashion and dress according to the new trends in this league. Or can he set a trend himself, like Wenger did?

I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. Because all we've seen is the same thing over and over. Could mean Arteta doesn't want to change, could mean he can't. Next season he needs to show some evidence he's not going to do a late-era Wenger and suspend us in limbo for the next decade.

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I am losing faith that Arteta will change.

The more I think about it, the worse his recent transfer decisions seem. Last Summer was pretty much a disaster, really. Sterling maybe the worst transfer for a decade - and to usurp Willian is going some. Merino - £32M wasted on a 28 year old journeyman who was clearly not what this team needed and has not raised the floor, let alone the ceiling of our team. We could have sourced a player of his limited ability in the Championship. Calafiori - £42M for an injury prone 'unicorn' player who might be a useful alternative in certain games, but was not what was needed; is a CB not a LB,, and has been usurped by an 18 year old academy player. All set against letting 4 forward players go, and self-evidently making us far too light in attack.

Frankly, the manager's blushes have been saved by MLS and Nwaneri - who have played far more minutes and done far better than the manager could ever have anticipated this season.

Even if we go back to 2023 - our signings were Rice; Timber; Havertz and Raya. Decent signings all, but Rice has not been utilised in his best position; Timber is not really an upgrade on Ben White, and Havertz is not a striker - and didn't really move the dial at left 8. Perhaps only Rice and Raya are league winning signings.

And the strand running throughout...tumbleweed in the top half of the pitch. As we have all observed, we are stuck in a rigid system that lacks dynamism; technique on the ball and flexibility and seems to discourage flair and real difference makers. It overloads players and leaves us short of alternatives other than in MF and defence. The chickens have come home to roost this season, and I am not hopeful that either club or manager can have the Summer needed to get us where we want to be.