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Don’t think it will be that messy this time around, I think that was a unique combination of people not being able to celebrate in pubs and in the ground because of covid and because it was Liverpool’s first league title in 30 years so a big dealQuote:
Originally Posted by Shaqiri Is Boss
Nah was never gonna happen. Plus actually was quite pleased for Liverpool winning the title then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Whether or not it was going to happen wasn't the point, it was winding up Liverpool fans about it that was suxh a laugh - if you had a sense of humour that isQuote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I think it will be just as bad, if not worse. For a start, everyone is out and about. And enough people have convinced themselves that 2020 wasn't "proper" so they will make up for it this time round. Even if they were the same people out last time. Good luck to them I say, but I'll be staying away regardless :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
So I'm posting on here having seen some people on the PSG game thread suggesting that they would welcome us finishing outside the top 5 in the EPL this season because this would make it more likely that Arteta is sacked.
I am finding it difficult to process this!
I am as critical of Arteta as most on here when I see obvious mistakes made. But I really struggle to see the case for sacking him at this stage, despite these.
The case against Arteta on here seems to be based on 3 main issues.
1. Personal antipathy to his character (that includes apparent stubbornness and refusal to change his approach) (HCZ ;))
2. Frustration at some obvious mistakes he has made.
3. The feeling that there is someone better out there who would take our team and lead it to success.
Re the first point I don't get the hate. Much of this in the wider punditry world seems to be based on Areta's intensity and alleged victim mentality (always blaming refs etc); arrogance or (again alleged) touchline behaviour. But I don't think this case is made out. I see nothing in Arteta's press conferences that is unprofessional, over confrontational or obnoxious. He is intense, but for me this shows he cares deeply about our team and is desperate for success. As far as I am able to see, he has rarely used excuses to justify poor results. His players are clearly 100% bought in to him, and while it is undeniable that he has frozen out some players can we honestly say that is almost all cases he hasn't been proven right in this? I think that POGML has gone after him as unfairly as it has his players at times.
It is undeniable that Arteta has made mistakes. Also that he is (still) inexperienced. The failure to invest in forwards has hurt us badly this season, and I get (and have highlighted my own) frustration at some of his on pitch decisions. But focussing on these is IMHO very one-sided and ignores very real balancing factors. The idea that Arteta has not learnt from some of his mistakes is simply wrong. To give a couple of examples - we have seen many more attempts this season to try to rotate players and try new combinations. We have seen Academy players brought into the first team and perform. We have seen attempts to vary our style of play to suit the opposition, and the manager evolving past former 'first picks' like Zinchenko, and allowing the likes of Nketiah to leave.
And what about what the manager has got right? In player terms, there is a long list. Raya? We thought that bringing him in when we had Ramsdale was unnecessary - this decision was now undeniably correct. Havertz? We had written him off as a waste of money after 4 months but now have an ironic chant lampooning this. Merino? His re-purposing as a forward has brought rewards that had he been a striker signed in January would have been applauded (this also speaks to Arteta's tactical nous). MLS - an academy midfielder who has been a revelation at LB. That Rice was an outstanding player was reflected in his transfer fee and I can see that his performances could have been expected, but he has evolved under Arteta to be a potent attacking MF. Jurrien Timber? - enough said. Arteta - for all the justified criticism of lack of investment up front - has nailed a lot of his transfer business. And that's not allowing for the fact that almost all of the players who have left the club under Arteta have also justified his decisions.
In league terms - 8th; 8th; 5th; 2nd; 2nd - and a good chance of 2nd again. Liverpool under one of the most esteemed managers in world football and without having to recover from a basket case situation previously - 1st; 3rd; 2nd; 5th; 3rd (and 1st this season under Slot). In the 3 years prior to this season, Arteta out performed Klopp. In the CL - in Arenal's first season back in the CL after 5 years' absence we made the Quarters, and in this follow up season the Semis (for the first time since 2009 - 16 years! - and still not out of it). An outsider might well ask 'what do you want when it comes to evidence of Arteta's value to Arsenal?'.
We all want trophies - Arteta as much as anyone - and failing to push Liverpool for the league has been a disappointment. But we are only 4th top net spenders in the league over the past 5 seasons and even this is a bit misleading because it ignores the base from which Arteta had to come when he arrived. Our position this season is 11th; last season it was admittedly 2nd, the season before 6th(!). By this metric, it is clear that Arteta has significantly over performed. And let's not forget that our 2nd place finishes in 22/3 and 23/4 were benind the juggernaut that is the state owned Citeh - with 115 potential reasons to question whether this was a fair fight.
And finally to the last point. It's trite to ask who could come in and do a better job, with better prospects than Arteta at this stage, because there are a myriad of factors that make a manager a good fit for a club. But that said, most of those calling for Arteta's head either have no suggestions as to a potential replacement ('that's for the Club to do etc'), or make suggestions that carry so many question marks as to be, frankly, pointless. So I will try to approach the issue in 2 alternative ways. Firstly, which top world clubs would not even consider Arteta at the prersent time if they needed to change managers? I think the answer is pretty obvious and instructive. Second - two things to consider.
On Tuesday night, Arteta was up against a state owned club that has had a net spend over the past 10 seasons £300M more than Arsenal, has had CL experience of reaching the last 16 in each of the past 5 seasons, getting to 2 semi finals and 1 final in that time; and a manager who has won La Liga twice and the CL once (as well as being runaway Ligue 1 champion). PSG had no key injuries or suspensions. Arteta was missing 2 strikers; 2 mifielders (including Partey who has been instrumental in getting us to the semis); his first choice LCB and had a 70% fit Saka - arguably his most important player. He had to fundamentally change a settled formula that had seen us thrash RM and had been used to compensate for his striker injuries, and Rice's enforced change of position was arguably the reason for the result. Arteta not only showed his tactical smarts by fundamentally changing a dire situation in the first 30 mins, but lost by a single goal.
Slot won the league with a team that had been built extremely well by Klopp; relying to a great degree on a standout player who was the best in the league. Had almost no injuries to his key players - save Trent for 3 games and Alisson - but this latter was mitigated by having the best back up GK in the league. I don't really need to go through our injury crisis, but we have been decimated by injury for long periods to 5 of our most important players.
I'm not looking for excuses for Arteta - but if the knives are out for him it's simply unfair not to see this season in context.
This is a hugely long post and no doubt boring for some, but I wanted to get this off my chest.
My personal dislike of Arteta is somewhat divorced from my dislike of the job he’s doing (although there are overlaps because I think the mistakes he makes are at least informed by his character)
Arteta could have won everything under the sun for us, and I’d be happy for him to remain as Coach for as long as he wants and I’d still dislike him as a person (or to be specific…dislike the person he presents as)
Hate is a word I don’t use often, I don’t hate Arteta I just dislike him…if the word hate ever gets used in the same sentence it’s momentary rage rather than a general overall feeling
But I do hate the job Arteta has done this season, and I’d love to see him sacked, publicly humiliated and unable to get work again as a result. But I could think Arteta was a good guy and still feel this way.
When it comes to this season, I’m Ernst Stavro Blofeld before his face is revealed, doing terrible things to his underlings because he doesn’t tolerate failure.
This season is failure
I also strongly dislike Guardiola (or how he presents). There is this as I’ve discussed before this Iberian smug superiority that some from that area exude that grates on me. It’s not just arrogance as Germans and Italians can be arrogant but there’s a whimsy with that which makes it more excusable.
Guardiola is worse than Arteta in my view, unbelievably insincere, patronising and overbearing
He was a good player, but not a good enough player that Haaland shouldn’t have turned around and told him to fuck off for berating him at half time in a game against Burnley they were winning comfortably.
As for Arteta, I think Top players don’t respect coaches that had mediocre playing careers “what can you possibly teach me?”
I think this is why Arteta sometimes prefers younger players with less personality, because they won’t think “what have you won in your career to give me advice?”
IBK, I suggest you try and watch the Barca and Inter game so you'll realise the gods did us a favour giving us PSG at this stage.
Like I said to HCZ on another thread, there are too many people who share these sympathies and this why even if we lose all the games left this season, Arteta's job will stay relatively safe.
AFAIC all I see this season are convenient excuses for someone who when he became a favourite for a competition (the EPL and the CL) contrived to mess things up either through hubris or lack of preparation. That isn't a sign of a winner but a glorified choker. And before you say we only became favourites this season, he also did it in the UEFA cup when we were favourites.
At the end of the day, I think its naive to think you'll win a league by continually taking baby steps, as we've been doing with this manager. That's the main reason I want him out, I can't ever see him doing enough to win the league.
As Slot has shown, and I said in previous seasons when I pointed out the list of Chelsea managers who won the league at the first time of asking, if a core of a team is decent, a new manager can always build on this and get you what you think you deserve.
I am beginning to think that only a nuclear event like Spurs winning the league or the CL will irk the fanbase enough to realise that we're waisting a talented bunch because we're afraid of taking the next step, as usual.
I think where I disagree with you, and if I’ve misattributed sentiments to you in anyway then I’ll withdraw. Is that you look to Chelsea as a blueprint for what we should be as a club and for me that would be monstrous. Not just as it is now but how it’s always been, I don’t want one good season, one thin season that’s been bought off the back of going berserk in the transfer market. The only coach there that brought in any measure of stability/sustainability was Mourinho and he then undermined that with his destructive narcissistic personality (I use that word a lot to describe people but we really are in an age of narcassists)
Arteta has been given a lot of money to spend but what definitely can’t be said of him is that if he were to go tomorrow, the next coach would have their job cut out for them. No I think given a few additions I think they’d have one of the easiest jobs in the world. Slot who you cite, is nothing special and benefited from a) having a largely settled squad available to him and b) the clubs that would have most likely squeezed them back into third place where for my money is where they belong, have both had atrocious seasons.
Arteta is responsible for this, but he’s also responsible for the fact that despite this we are still in the driving seat to finish 2nd and actually we’ve lost 7 games all season (which is the same number as supposedly brilliant Liverpool have lost).
For me it’s about getting the balance right, there’s no sense to me in being a team that wins the title or the champions league one season, to be mid table and then have to spend loads to build an entirely new team.
If we win the league, I want to retain the league, if we win the European cup I want us to try to retain it. I don’t just want big prizes in one season….i want us to create a dynasty of success. Something Chelsea never did, and Man City have only done through cheating.
This follows on from what I’ve said that actually the coach isn’t that important. If you have a functioning structure at the club that is conducive to success (and although I don’t rate many of liverpools players I think it unquestionable that they do have that structure in place) that you can get someone who isn’t this immensely talented superstar of a coach, but a pretty ordinary guy who is smart enough to know his place and not try to change too much like Arne Slot…you can be successful.
If you have a good enough squad (which Liverpool fortunately for us don’t) you can potentially have multiple successes.
Arteta’s main problem is he wants to be the centrepiece and in that his ambition and self belief dwarf his ability. I think if he resigned from Arsenal at the end of the season I think he would probably have multiple job offers from many clubs, because people will see the job he’s done at Arsenal and like it. But arguably the architect is not necessarily the best person to go forward with…you need someone without an ego who can work in a system which has been created for him.
And maybe that’s to a degree why Klopp didn’t achieve as much as he would have wanted, big ego…when what was needed was a dull functionary