Match Reaction - Spuds 2-2 Arsenal

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This season has provided the long missing evidence that can be used to judge the real reasons for our failure over a decade. You say no, everything was understandable prior to this season but now some terrible anomaly has occurred.

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Hang on, now who is putting words into whose mouth? You picked me up on that.

The new money has yielded some results, it's yielded Ozil, Sanchez and Cech and two FA Cups. It was a good start but he's failed to push us on and if he can't win the league this season then I doubt he ever will. So yeah, he should go for that, not because of the period before that when you agreed he earned a new contract.
He deserved a chance to push us on. He's failed to and so he should go. But he's failed to because he has flaws (as will the next bloke of course). And those flaws were always there. But when his fitness methods and knowledge of the European game meant we were better than everyone else it masked those flaws. Now other clubs have caught up and overtaken us, the edge Wenger once had is no longer there and he's not been able to step up. But he has his strengths too, I doubt many managers could have overseen a stadium move that complex and kept us top 4 with a (relatively) limited budget (whether self-imposed or not). He'll leave us with a very good squad and with plenty of money in the bank to ensure a successful future if the new guy spends it wisely. The last 10 years have not been particularly successful but neither have they been an unmitigated failure or disaster.

To be fair yes Ferguson did adapt and change but when would he have ever admitted that to the press

Wenger isn't going to admit he's fucked up publically even if he thought that was the case.

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Originally Posted by selassie

And then he won stuff again because he adapted.

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Yes. He was better than Wenger. I was merely responding to the assertion that Fergie was never questioned by the fans. He was.

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Originally Posted by Kano

No, what you're missing here is the ability to self analyse sufficently. I'm sure Wenger does. Most humans doing their job do that. Its stupid to think otherwise.

But how effective that analysis becomes is the key part. Fergie I'm sure asked himself enough difficult questions to remain on top. Wenger probably doesn't go far enough or doesn't rely enough on people around him enough to face some home truths. Whereas Ferige probably did do that.

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I think that the problem is Wenger's criteria for success. Seems to me that he has lost sight of the main issue. So he focusses on consistency of league position over a period; financial stewardship and footballing 'purity' and sees his performance in this regard as justifying his existence, and neither he nor anyone else focusses on whether his methods are effective enough to win things any more.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Yes. He was better than Wenger. I was merely responding to the assertion that Fergie was never questioned by the fans. He was.

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Fair do's. I personally think Wenger could and should have done more over the past what 10 seasons and should be judged over a longer time frame than the last 2 seasons, money plays a part in success and there is no denying Wenger has significantly strengthened the squad with the world class additions, but as you rightly said his flaws, which have been there from day one are still manifesting themselves. Given that we're discussing this I think it's highly appropriate to discuss Wenger's performance over a time period longer than 2 seasons.

It's not as black and white as Wenger has failed over 10 years or whatever it is, but you could argue that he could and should have won more over the years. Even when we were financially handicapped and some of that has been severely questioned as to whether that was self imposed by Wenger himself.

TBF I was calling for Wenger's head around 4 or 5 seasons ago, my calls have just got louder!

Agree about the "purity" thing. He's trying to recreate Barca but doesn't have the players to do it.

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Originally Posted by IBK

I think that the problem is Wenger's criteria for success. Seems to me that he has lost sight of the main issue. So he focusses on consistency of league position over a period; financial stewardship and footballing 'purity' and sees his performance in this regard as justifying his existence, and neither he nor anyone else focusses on whether his methods are effective enough to win things any more.

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I think that's right but in an ideal world I think Wenger's philosophy isn't so bad. He is right to say that the pursuit of ultimate, glorified, singular success has sent the world crazy and that ties into a wider anti-neobiberal arguement. Success in your personal or wokring life isn't solely defined by being the absolute best at what you do. There are many defining factors to gauge happiness and achievement in that sense. That is the basis of his belief, or at least the argument he poses to defend his position.

But Wenger doesn't work in that world. And the simple matter is that if he doesn't like the expectation or the questioning, then he has to make the decision to leave. Because it won't ease up, even if he reaches the very top again. Success and failure will only intensify it, either way. Football clubs taking in such a level of fans money and reaping such huge financial rewards are expected to achieve the ultimate. Nothing else will do in modern sport. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. So if it doesn't match his personal philosophy and the questioning of that dements him, he only has one option left.

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Originally Posted by selassie

Fair do's. I personally think Wenger could and should have done more over the past what 10 seasons and should be judged over a longer time frame than the last 2 seasons, money plays a part in success and there is no denying Wenger has significantly strengthened the squad with the world class additions, but as you rightly said his flaws, which have been there from day one are still manifesting themselves. Given that we're discussing this I think it's highly appropriate to discuss Wenger's performance over a time period longer than 2 seasons.

It's not as black and white as Wenger has failed over 10 years or whatever it is, but you could argue that he could and should have won more over the years. Even when we were financially handicapped and some of that has been severely questioned as to whether that was self imposed by Wenger himself.

TBF I was calling for Wenger's head around 4 or 5 seasons ago, my calls have just got louder!

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I don't disagree that he should be judged over a longer period. Well, he should be judged over his whole career with us.
Although the billionaires muscling in right at the time we were somewhat hamstrung by the new stadium and poor sponsorship deals was a factor - I actually think he'd have won a title or two in other circumstances but we'll never know - I do agree that there were times he could and should have done more. He did well to keep us in the top 4, he did badly not to win any trophies.
IMO he should be judged differently now though. We have a new financial muscle, it's a myth that he's not used it at all. We've signed 2 big players, 3 if you include Cech, and had a significantly bigger net spend than we'd had the seasons prior to that.
It's yielded a couple of FA Cups and that was a promising sign but we really needed to push on. He arguably should have been sacked last year, IMO the retention of the FA Cup earned him one more try but the failure to sustain a title challenge can't be defender. Especially as it's at the expense of Spurs and Leicester.
He needs to go but the last 10 years haven't been a complete disaster. They could have been better but they could have been a lot worse too and we're in good shape for whoever takes over.
I just hope he doesn't stay too much longer, it could get ugly if he doesn't go soon.