Match Reaction vs Bayern Munich (home)

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

In fairness to Zim, no one has been more maligned on this forum for their opinion.

I don't see it as revelling in our failure, more revelling in a lot of people now coming round to his way of thinking.

That's not to say he doesn't use any little opportunity to make something out of nothing. ;)

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That's a reasonable assessment, this particular message board I joined in summer 2011 I was already pretty much Wenger out by that point, and I've never stated that I want him to stay.

Anyone could see from the outset that Wenger was tactically naive but he was a genius at unearthing talent. And what Zim fails to understand is that people stuck with him so long out of sentiment. There is no way you could have gone to a game in the unbeaten season or two years previously and not loved him. Grown men turned into over excited kids by something out of this world done by Thierry Henry, taking Man United's title away from them at Old Trafford.....these things were a long time ago and people wanted to believe deep down that could be repeated.
But I repeat you can know it's over without shitting on everything.

The games I've been able to enjoy are less and less but enjoy them I will, and I don't want to be told that I'm part of the problem for doing so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

In fairness to Zim, no one has been more maligned on this forum for their opinion.

I don't see it as revelling in our failure, more revelling in a lot of people now coming round to his way of thinking.

That's not to say he doesn't use any little opportunity to make something out of nothing. ;)

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True.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

That's a reasonable assessment, this particular message board I joined in summer 2011 I was already pretty much Wenger out by that point, and I've never stated that I want him to stay.

Anyone could see from the outset that Wenger was tactically naive but he was a genius at unearthing talent. And what Zim fails to understand is that people stuck with him so long out of sentiment. There is no way you could have gone to a game in the unbeaten season or two years previously and not loved him. Grown men turned into over excited kids by something out of this world done by Thierry Henry, taking Man United's title away from them at Old Trafford.....these things were a long time ago and people wanted to believe deep down that could be repeated.
But I repeat you can know it's over without shitting on everything.

The games I've been able to enjoy are less and less but enjoy them I will, and I don't want to be told that I'm part of the problem for doing so.

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He did unearth talent, but at a time noone else knew about French players he had the upperhand as he knew the French market very well, his ability to unearth top talents in the last 10+ years though has greatly diminished, I'd say he's no better than the next manager at doing so these days. Sentiment only goes so far IMO, since 2006 he's done very little IMO, the same failures have happened time and time again, the football has IMO been boring to watch on the whole and we've just since every season being a clone of the previous one, there's been way too much sentiment and he's had way more leeway than any other manager would have got at any other top club.

You enjoy them I don't, I find our games, repetitive and the boring is some of the dullest around IMO, there's no entertainment, very little excitement and when I do watch a match it's hard to stay awake.

IMO this club has a defeatist attitude, from top to bottom, it even runs through to some of the fans that take pride in being also rans.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

You'd almost think Wenger worked the last 20 years for free, to hear some fans going on. How comes in this modern version of the game the fans are owed nothing and yet we are supposed to owe undying loyalty to one man? We don't owe him anything, he's paid in full.

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Totally agree, for some reason we have to be eternally grateful to the man and remain loyal to him, he's done very well out of the club, a job getting paid a fortune, doing whatever he likes with no real pressure to deliver success, he owes a lot to the club and the fans because with it and then he'd probably still be managing some small team at some unknown level, he owes the fans for their loyalty, works both ways.

I don't really like the attitude we should be so grateful to him and the ascertion we were really nothing before he arrived, in reality he was an unknown before he arrived at Arsenal, in many ways he was very fortunate to get the job at such a big club.

Yes he did a great job in his first few years, delivering trophy after trophy with us playing great football and we should be proud of that and grateful to him for doing that, but he needs to be a bit more humble, the way he talks he built Arsenal up from being nothing, the truth is it's the other way round.

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Originally Posted by Özim

He did unearth talent, but at a time noone else knew about French players he had the upperhand as he knew the French market very well, his ability to unearth top talents in the last 10+ years though has greatly diminished, I'd say he's no better than the next manager at doing so these days. Sentiment only goes so far IMO, since 2006 he's done very little IMO, the same failures have happened time and time again, the football has IMO been boring to watch on the whole and we've just since every season being a clone of the previous one, there's been way too much sentiment and he's had way more leeway than any other manager would have got at any other top club.

You enjoy them I don't, I find our games, repetitive and the boring is some of the dullest around IMO, there's no entertainment, very little excitement and when I do watch a match it's hard to stay awake.

IMO this club has a defeatist attitude, from top to bottom, it even runs through to some of the fans that take pride in being also rans.

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Sorry did I say I enjoyed many of the games, I said there were still games I did enjoy. This season unfortunately has been fewer than ever, I would say honestly there have been three games I've genuinely enjoyed watching - Chelsea at home, West Ham away and Southampton in the FA cup.

It was more than just tapping an unknown market he was able to see potential in people that had been overlooked, like with Vieira who was a sub at Milan or Henry who despite bursting into the scene with Monaco was flagging at Juventus as a luxury winger and Wenger turned him into the best striker in the world.

You can snub his achievements but name me any other manager of this club that won us three titles in seven seasons since before the Second World War.
I'm with you if you argue there isn't much to shout about since 2006, but you also cannot fault a board for keeping faith with him during a period of financial uncertainty where we were stable. If Liverpool had moved to a bigger stadium and a manager was getting top four whilst they are paying down the debt for almost a decade would they really have sacked him?.

The world doesn't run on sentiment. But I've already explained that it's clear we have only been spending substantially in the last three years and you can think it won't make any difference, but it was always obvious the fans as well as the board were going to see if greater spending made a difference.

Wenger was given the benefit of the doubt and given three seasons to see if some progress could be made, but there has been none and this is why the majority of the fan base have turned. You can argue why didn't the fans turned sooner, but to assume they would is the same level of naievity you attribute to others.

And as I say I think the quality of football only took a consistent nose dive in the last few years, games where the football was good more often than it wasn't.

Two seasons ago I went to watch Arsenal play on my brothers season ticket many times, and there were still games like when we took Liverpool apart at the Emirates and you can want change in management and still acknowledge that you've been thoroughly entertained.

The financial shackles have gone and we have nothing to show for it and that's why he's got to go. Was it obvious that a man so stubborn, so tactically lacking would not do remarkably better even with money? Yeah I'm not surprised how the last three years have gone. I think the failure to win the title in 2007/2008 for instance was a failure of mentality rather than a lack of finances.

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Originally Posted by selassie

Compare and contrast, Bayern accepted they needed to buck their ideas up and improve and they did so by reaching CL finals and winning CL in between that period of 2009 and now.

Wenger on the other hand is in complete denial at the task at hand...he doesn't even think anything is wrong.....

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even better than that, Bayern made the CL final in 2010 but realized things werent going right. They changed their organizational structure when Heynkes took over and hired Guardiola after they won their last CL.


Meanwhile fans and the club are beholden to Wenger for what happened in 2004. It doesnt make sense.

On a positive...Ox may have found his role in the squad. Central midfield looks to be his natural position. Really put in a performance.

https://twitter.com/EmanDaGoonn/stat...06190757044225

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Originally Posted by mastermind84

even better than that, Bayern made the CL final in 2010 but realized things werent going right. They changed their organizational structure when Heynkes took over and hired Guardiola after they won their last CL.


Meanwhile fans and the club are beholden to Wenger for what happened in 2004. It doesnt make sense.

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All credit to Bayern, Football comes first, they pride themselves on winning and will not settle for second best.

Regarding some of our fans that are beholden to Wenger....I know it's ridiculous...but ultimately this is what happens when standards are allowed drop so far that taking part is now seen as some sort of success.

We have a Manager who not that long ago said that "Winning isn't everything".

We have an Owner who straight up said that "he doesn't care for trophies and the primary reason for him buying Arsenal wasn't for winning".

That's the reality of the situation...they don't care, they don't care one bit.

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

On a positive...Ox may have found his role in the squad. Central midfield looks to be his natural position. Really put in a performance.

https://twitter.com/EmanDaGoonn/stat...06190757044225

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Shop window performances I reckon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vusNSMM9QB4