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The issue is there’s no one obviously going to improve us. Eze was considered as an alternative to Odegaard, but just different kind of player rather than any better. Eze would be a good strong dribbler, well arguably so would Max DowmanQuote:
Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club
Same with Rodrygo under a system where the ball all comes down the right, what’s to say Rodrygo or someone else is not going to be left just as isolated.
Agreed, but that is where a creative player that actually sits centrally would be a different option to bring on.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
But we arguably already have that in Nwaneri and to a lesser extent in Dowman (and I only say lesser extent because the lad is 15, his potential is immense)Quote:
Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club
Plus actually we could also play Saka through the middle as he’s clearly talented enough to do it.
Same thing being said about Kiwior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Porto, once again trying to rip us off with a loan and an obligation to buy for £25m..... honestly the King of Net spend is really outdoing himself this window.... but that was kind of predictable as he 's run out of other manager's assets to sell.
True but Nwaneri & Dowman are both inexperienced still & the likelihood of Arteta ever putting Saka in the middle is as much as me sticking my cock in a paper shredder*Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
*just so you know, I'm not kinky like that so I deffo wouldn't ;)
I agree with most of this. And to respond to some of the points made previously by others...Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I agree that squad valuation is a useful metric, and if this is used, our squad is currentlythe joint most valuable (with Citeh) according to a recent planet football ranking - at £1,222,000,000, followed by Chelsea and Liverpool. This will change if Liverpool land Isaak as expected.
Last season, according to Give Me Sport, we were in 4th place - behind Citeh Chelsea and Liverpool. In 2023/4 we were second, behind Citeh, as we were in 2022/3. So our last 3 league finishes correlate fairly consistently with squad value.
As HZC and Letters have mentioned, our disappointing season last season when we were 10 points off the pace had more to do with injuries to key players than anything else. Before that, any fair observer has to factor in that experience and know how count. We were pipped at the post by Citeh in 2023/4, and 5 points behind them in 2022/3 being beaten by Guardiola's juggernaut is no disgrace. We also need to remember that Saliba's injury in 2023/4 probably accounted for us not winning the title - and is a good example of how luck (or the lack of it) is a big factor in a title chase that can confound any stats based arguments.
I disagree that people haven't been arguing that Arteta has underperformed - and citing his spending in support of this. And I don't think either that this is true (if we make an allowance for last season's injuries), or that it is obvious that someone else would have done better than him. Of course in a hypothetical world another manager could have won the league with his resources, but by the same token a hypothetical manager could also have done worse. The argument is subjective as well as hypothetical, and largely dictated by whether people like Arteta and focus on the good parts of his management, or dislike him and focus on the negatives.
The debate about Arteta's merits (as opposed siimply to what he has spent) is a different one. I think we are all mostly agreed that he has made mistakes, and that as far as he was responsible (to whatever extent) in last Summer's transfer business he got things wrong. I think we are also agreed that this season is make or break, and sceptical as to whether the manager has what it takes to win major silverware with us (I certainly am).
HCZ's point about form is an interesting one. As well as injuries (and maybe as a result of them), too many of our players last season did not hit top form. I think it is valid to ask whether Arteta's system is the reason for this. What I would say is that transfer business is all about hoping/expecting players to play to their potential, so if we feel that players are out of form this is not really a ground on which to criticise the transfer itself.
Sometimes a post really gives pause for thought. And this comment falls into this category. We have spent 3 months obsessing about our transfer business, and there is always the feeling that (usually a headline) transfer will give us what is needed for success. If you go through our current squad and our players' individual merits - and also look at our last 3 seasons - then I think I agree that we are good enough to win the league. If you accept this then further debate about our transfer business becomes facile.Quote:
If Arteta is not good enough to win the league with the squad we currently have, than he’s not good enough to win it even if we add the 1-2 extra players so therefore the issue is moot.
While I agree with the options that could play through the middle (except Saka), they're obviously kids and still on a long learning curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
If the plan is to win important silverware ASAP, then we must be consistent by continuing in the path of choosing players that have a verifiable track record and can make impact now instead of later, which I believe was one of the reasons we finally agreed to go with Gyokores over Sesko.
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Not going all out and completing this Eze move seems like the decision that might haunt us this season, just like the madness of playing without a proper striker did last season (though the latter was pretty pretty stupid).
BTW I must admit that I'm also slowly beginning to buy into the argument that Arteta could recruit all the players he wants and we'd still fall short (something you hinted on earlier), as our inflexibility with tactics is being exposed by a lot more analysts all over the media....however I'd still rather be damned if we do, than the other way around.
So Arteta has replaced Berta and is now dealing with transfer business as well as preparing the team for Leeds?Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Our lamantable record of player sales is a deep seated and historic problem, that also has its roots in (1) the post Wenger wilderness - and having to play catch up since Arteta joined, and (2) our Club's tendency to pull its punches when it comes to signing the best of the best.
How, exactly, do you think we find sale value in this team? After the manager arrived, we had to get rid of Ozil; Mkhitaryan; Mustaphi; Mavrapanos on frees; followed by Aubamyang and Lacazette the following year; and Pepe the following year. All senior players on big (mostly huge) wages who were busted flushes. The manager's brief was to restore the team to being competetive, and to do so he had to bring in talent to improve the team (and develop academy players) rather than buy with an eye on outgoing transfer value.
In order to persuade our most valuable transfers to join - and others to remain with the project we had to offer big wages - which is one of the reasons why we find players hard to shift.
We can look to the likes of Zinchenko and Jesus as examples of players whose value has plummeted all we like, but at the time they were key components of our resurgence. It is simply not possible to bring in top 'now' talent without the risk that we use up their transfer value in improving results - being left with little value when we need to sell.
In terms of younger players that Arteta has brought through - we did a resonable job with player sales last Summer - Smith Rowe; Nketiah and Ramsdale all went for decent fees.
Yes there are obvious errors under Arteta. Lokonga and Vieira stand out - but this happens with every team.
The corrollary to the debate above re transfer expenditure and squad value is that the manager has had to spend years inproving the quality of his squad. The valuable players we have are needed to play. I fail to see how we are failing to get value out of our surplus to requirement players in a market where there is no demand for them. Maybe Kiwor is the exception but (albeit that circumstances forced his had), its not as though Arteta did not put him in the shop window last season.
We are at a stage in the season where is they do fancy our players other clubs will have waited until they can drive a hard bargain. Should we have ignored our incoming transfer requirements (and lost out on targets) by focussing on outgoings first?
It's easy to be critical of the club for its achilles heel, but why the manager, and where is the value that we are currently failing to realise?
It's a nuanced issue, really. It's fine to say that we have to go all out on now players - and we largely have. But if we value talent like Nwaneri we need (1) to keep it, and (2) make sure there is a pathway for him to play. The problem with 'now' is that we then continue the cycle of giving big wages to older players and facing problems with generating transfer fees down the line. We have already IMO sailed quite close to the wind with Gyok and Zubi. At some stage we need to hedge our bets. I love Eze and would have been very pleased if we had signed him. But he is not the out and out LW that I think we need, and at some stage we need to pivot to a strategy that tries to protect our future - which is what I think the Nwaneri deal - and our consequent colling on Eze - represents.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
FFS Havertz out with knee injury for the forseeable