Are the glory days over for good?

Wenger is responsible for creating a team that often displays a lack of even the most fundamental basics in football, and allowing the rot to take hold of the squad. However he's been allowed to do this by the people above him, he would have gone by now at any other club of a similar stature, but because the board are only interested in the money he makes them, via the selling of our best assets, he's been given their full backing.

4th place has been the clubs saving grace for years now, the fans have said for a while that it's probably not wise to take it for granted anymore, because it's pretty clear the landscape was changing around us. However it looks like the club was oblivious to this and continued their flawed policy because it made them a quick buck. I believe Gazidis when he said the club can cope without the CL money, because it means we'll probably sell someone to recoup that anyway.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

How many times did you and others mention top 4 as some sort of achievement over the past few pages while also pointing out how much other teams spend, our 'shoestring' budget, losing our invincible players and having to cope with a move to a new stadium? Is that just saying we've achieved inspite of the odds or 'punched above our weight'? Or am I using the wrong phrase here?

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Top 4 IS an achievement. We are one of the clubs who have the resources to have a chance of a top 4 finish so in that sense we're not punching above our weight. But we have no divine right to be and stay there and other clubs who also have a lot of resources have spent far more than us in the transfer market to try and depose us and they've thus far failed to.

Winning the title would have been punching above our weight in the era of billionaire owners IMO - and a couple of times we've not been too far away from doing that, the frustrating thing about 'project youth' is it's a case of 'so near yet so far'.

Wenger HAS done well to build a good young side which has remained relatively competitive and stayed top 4. But he's done badly by not landing a few trophies despite being close to the title a couple of times and being in a few Cup finals since we last won something.

So no, I don't think Wenger has 'worked miracles' to keep us top 4 but we have no automatic right to be there and I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to keep a club there without a billionaire backer and especially during one of the most complex stadium moves any club has undertaken. A few clubs have spent big to try to achieve it and they've failed. It is an achievement which some on here belittle unfairly IMO.

Again: Middle ground.

@GB ....You say we've been punching above our weight yet you say Wenger should have been fired a while ago. That doesn't make sense.

If you see it like that, then maybe the Board see it that way as well and think Wenger is doing an excellent job considering the circumstances and rather than give in and go the sugar daddy route, we've brought in people that can try to generate revenue with more sporting sponsorship deals and worldwide appeal. That's probably what Stan and Gazidis bring to the table. They probably think Wenger is 'punching above his weight' as well, which is why he hasn't been fired. This is the first time we've looked in real trouble to be fair.

I finding it hard to agree with you. Why should they have fired him he's overachieved? I don't hold that view, but if you do, how can they justify sacking him when he's delivered 4th everytime considering our resources?


I'm not looking at the financial state of the club when I say Wenger should be sacked. It's purely based on football. Chelsea and Man U may spend more than us, but we haven't lost titled because we've had to play them week in week out. It's the smaller teams we lose to and it's usually in some embarrassing manner which should have been ironed out on the training field. But, I don't think the Board look at it like that because they're not fans or know a great deal about football. How many Boards do?

Yes, the Board are accountable, but right now, they're trying to get through this tough and uncertain moment. They're not rocking the boat or busting Wenger's balls about trophies. If West Brom are in a relegation scrap but make it to the Carling Cup final, which one takes priority for the Board? They won't fire the manager for losing a final, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

Top 4 IS an achievement. We are one of the clubs who have the resources to have a chance of a top 4 finish so in that sense we're not punching above our weight. But we have no divine right to be and stay there and other clubs who also have a lot of resources have spent far more than us in the transfer market to try and depose us and they've thus far failed to.

Winning the title would have been punching above our weight in the era of billionaire owners IMO - and a couple of times we've not been too far away from doing that, the frustrating thing about 'project youth' is it's a case of 'so near yet so far'.

Wenger HAS done well to build a good young side which has remained relatively competitive and stayed top 4. But he's done badly by not landing a few trophies despite being close to the title a couple of times and being in a few Cup finals since we last won something.

So no, I don't think Wenger has 'worked miracles' to keep us top 4 but we have no automatic right to be there and I think you're underestimating how difficult it is to keep a club there without a billionaire backer and especially during one of the most complex stadium moves any club has undertaken. A few clubs have spent big to try to achieve it and they've failed. It is an achievement which some on here belittle unfairly IMO.

Again: Middle ground.

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I have no interest in talking to you about this after just conceding the point about 'punching above our weight'. You tried to move the goal posts and threw the toys out the pram when I told you to stop lying. No time for that.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

You say we've been punching above our weight yet you say Wenger should have been fired a while ago. That doesn't make sense.

If you see it like that, then maybe the Board see it that way as well and think Wenger is doing an excellent job considering the circumstances and rather than give in and go the sugar daddy route, we've brought in people that can try to generate revenue with more sporting sponsorship deals and worldwide appeal. That's probably what Stan and Gazidis bring to the table. They probably think Wenger is 'punching above his weight' as well, which is why he hasn't been fired. This is the first time we've looked in real trouble to be fair.

I finding it hard to agree with you. Why should they have fired him he's overachieved? I don't hold that view, but if you do, how can they justify sacking him when he's delivered 4th everytime considering our resources?


I'm not looking at the financial state of the club when I say Wenger should be sacked. It's purely based on football. Chelsea and Man U may spend more than us, but we haven't lost titled because we've had to play them week in week out. It's the smaller teams we lose to and it's usually in some embarrassing manner which should have been ironed out on the training field. But, I don't think the Board look at it like that because they're not fans or know a great deal about football. How many Boards do?

Yes, the Board are accountable, but right now, they're trying to get through this tough and uncertain moment. They're not rocking the boat or busting Wenger's balls about trophies. If West Brom are in a relegation scrap but make it to the Carling Cup final, which one takes priority for the Board? They won't fire the manager for losing a final, that's for sure.

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We have been punching above our wieght by virtue of how we have finished in the League over the past 15 years. It is overachievement in the sense that if you look at the 15 year period, few teams have ever finished so consistently high in the league over such a protracted period. A period that is now likely at an end. We have failed to exploit the benefits that provided us. Wenger and ultimately, the Board are to blame for this.

Honestly, I am shocked that the strategy the Club undertook yeilded such high finishes over the past couple of years, such is the way the resources the team had were allowed to be stripped away. They have now been stripped away so much so, I'm pretty sure we have passed the tipping point. We need to invest so much in players, I doubt the Board have the stomch to do it, and this is compounded by how difficult it will be for us to attract the players we need because we are now perceived as a Club with no footballing ambition.

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Originally Posted by GB.

We have been punching above our wieght by virtue of how we have finished in the League over the past 15 years. It is overachievement in the sense that if you look at the 15 year period, few teams have ever finished so consistently high in the league over such a protracted period. A period that is now likely at an end. We have failed to exploit the benefits that provided us. Wenger and ultimately, the Board are to blame for this.

Honestly, I am shocked that the strategy the Club undertook yeilded such high finishes over the past couple of years, such is the way the resources the team had were allowed to be stripped away. They have now been stripped away so much so, I'm pretty sure we have passed the tipping point. We need to invest so much in players, I doubt the Board have the stomch to do it, and this is compounded by how difficult it will be for us to attract the players we need because we are now perceived as a Club with no footballing ambition.

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Again, I don't blame the Board that much. I've heard it said on here countless times, people were calling for Cesc to be sold and for Ramsey and Jack to takeover. I've always maintained that it would be foolish to do such a thing, but go back to the Man U win last season and you'll see a few getting over excited.

It was the same when we sold Ade, Hleb, Henry, Vieira, Cole, Anelka...reason being, Wenger has a record of letting players go and replacing them with younger cheaper talent. He's built his rep on that and I can't imagine him walking into the Board room and telling them we'll go under without player A, B or C. Only with Vieira, Henry and Cesc have we seem him pull his cards to keep them for an extra season and once he saw younger players coming through he's tell the Board they can go. You heard what Paddy said when we wanted to sell him. Wenger knew we had Cesc coming through. He had a new vision. The Board backed him again because he's done it in the last and pulled it off.

I don't think the Board forced this youth strategy on Wenger. How could they if it was beyond his capabilities as a manager and if he fessed up about losing his mojo when it cones to developing talent, they'd address the issue and support him. But Wenger still thinks he has it in him to develop players. Can they really question him on that? It's taken ages for the fans to see it and we watch the games.

I don't care what others said in respect of who should/n't go. I can only give my opinion as I see it. The steady loss of our best and most experienced players without making a commensurate investment was only going to lead in one direction. For a long time, we have not been perceived as an ambitious team. We were however perceived as a team to go to develop and move on to bigger things. We have shed ourselves of so much experience, we arent even seen as that anymore. This development did not sneak up on us, it could be seen happening for some time. The only thing I find surprising is the exponential speed in our rate of decline.

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Originally Posted by GB.

I don't care what others said in respect of who should/n't go. I can only give my opinion as I see it. The steady loss of our best and most experienced players without making a commensurate investment was only going to lead in one direction. For a long time, we have not been perceived as an ambitious team. We were however perceived as a team to go to develop and move on to bigger things. We have shed ourselves of so much experience, we arent even seen as that anymore. This development did not sneak up on us, it could be seen happening for some time. The only thing I find surprising is the exponential speed in our rate of decline.

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I agree with you on that one. But like some of the fans that thought Wenger could turn water into wine, I think we have Board memebers that attend the same church.

I tell you the thing I don't get. Fine - Wenger can't perform miracles and all that. But the one thing we're sure as hell supposed to be doing is have technical ability and pass well. Forget about the fact that we ignore the defence and everything else, we could always build pretty patterns, open teams up by passing quickly and controlling instantly, and then proceed to waste a fuckload of chances...what the hell happened to that?

I don't know what our strengths are at the moment. We're not 'shit' and we might even finish for a European place. Every team (even mid-table and below) has a strength...Stoke's is rugby, Liverpool's is being all northern and having miners like Kuyt who'll chase a lost cause. What do we do right now? What's the gameplan?

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Originally Posted by Syn

I tell you the thing I don't get. Fine - Wenger can't perform miracles and all that. But the one thing we're sure as hell supposed to be doing is have technical ability and pass well. Forget about the fact that we ignore the defence and everything else, we could always build pretty patterns, open teams up by passing quickly and controlling instantly, and then proceed to waste a fuckload of chances...what the hell happened to that?

I don't know what our strengths are at the moment. We're not 'shit' and we might even finish for a European place. Every team (even mid-table and below) has a strength...Stoke's is rugby, Liverpool's is being all northern and having miners like Kuyt who'll chase a lost cause. What do we do right now? What's the gameplan?

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Good post. There is no game plan, it seems like they're just told to go out and play this way, as if it's a training game or something. There's no match savvy whatsoever. We all talked about it after the United game, shit teams won't get anywhere near as battered as we did there, they'll at least have a strategy to limit the damage.

It's crazy really how it's got to this point. The team is unrecognisable. I'm never sure where the next win is coming from these days.

This is the area of criticism that Wenger is 100% accountable for.