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Can you go back to the post and check to see where I referenced Trent Alexander Arnold and made any comment about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I’d hate to think I’d slipped it in somewhere and forgot
Otherwise, I’d hate to think you’ve conflated two separate things in order to have an argument
Gosh someone gets itQuote:
Originally Posted by IBK
Yes you’re absolutely right. And yes I think booing TAA was petty and ungrateful (I’ve never much rated him to begin with so I wouldn’t be that fussed about him leaving if I was a Liverpool fan).
On one hand, we were very vocal in regards to Samir Nasri (in the start of the 2011/2012 season he played two league games for us before joining City) we were chanting “Samir you’re a cunt”. Which I think was more specifically about going to City, but there was certainly not the animosity towards Vieira or Henry when they went to Juventus and Barcelona respectively.
Liverpool fans say it’s the circumstances under which he is leaving, which he engineered. Maybe but this guy has won two league titles and a champions league with you….he really owes you fuck all.
On top of that I think Banter is part of what makes football, Liverpool and Arsenal are two clubs vying at the top…it only makes sense that their fan bases should have digs at each other. What I think about Arteta has no bearing on that view
I think there’s always a line. I would not condone for example our fans making chants about Hillsborough, because innocent people died through no fault of their own.
I feel the same about the Munich air disaster
But calling them bin dippers or chanting “sign on” is to my mind fair game
I don't think there's any basis to draw conclusions regarding Arteta accepting responsibility internally. If we make the same mistakes next season as we have done this, then there may be more validity to your view, but I think this is unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
All managers make mistakes. I am not downplaying Arteta's failure to invest in our forward line or overloading his players, but in terms of system; playing style or individual decisions during matches, there isn't a manager on earth that gets it right 100% of the time. Again, we do need (I think) to acknowledge that our disappointment in how the league has gone this season can result in a skewed view of our manager's shortcomings.
Noone was arguing in the second half of last season (when we scored a record number of goals) that Arteta's system was ineffective. I suspect that had even 2 of Havertz; Saka and Jesus stayed fit, we would have been much closer to winning the league. Arteta clearly acknowledged the need for a striker in January - and we don't have any clear idea of the club dynamics that prevented us from bringing someone in. If's but's and maybe's perhaps - but these are fine margins. We can criticise our manager sure, but reaching the conclusion that he can neither see, nor address our shortcomings this season is, for me, precipitous to say the least.
One final point that I found quite interesting. Here is the EPL player list for most minutes played this season https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/prem...wettbewerb/GB1
Aside from Raya, we don't have a single player before Saliba at 28, and our next entry is Rice, coming in at...no. 68! Suprising stuff given the prevailing view about over use of our players.
We are rivals. If we were rivals with City and United, it makes no sense to say we aren’t rivals with LiverpoolQuote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I think there has been a long standing respect between our two sides which goes back to the night of May 26th 1989 where our players brought bouquets of flowers to the supporters because of the almost unfathomable loss they’d gone through six weeks earlier (it was certain that people in the ground that night had either lost friends and loved ones, or knew people that had). It was the right thing to do, because in instances like this there are things more important than football.
Everton fans hate Liverpool football club but similarly I’ve seen in regards to Hillsborough they are one city (I went to an Everton game years ago and saw Trevor Hicks on stage outside Goodison park, it was a few months after the Bishop of Liverpool’s enquiry into Hillsborough) and he got total support and applause from the Everton supporting crowd.
But on match day in the derby, it’s banter and insults.
So fans calling a banner like that disrespectful seems thin skinned and speaks to me of a borderline messianic regard some of our fans hold Arteta in.
And if rival fans had made fun of Wenger even at his pomp, I wouldn’t have cared one jot
Nah - you're overreaching with this :police:Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I think you are allowing your view of Arteta to colour an admittedly thin skinned response to a percived slur on our club, not one that specifically defends our manager.
No because it’s not a binaryQuote:
Originally Posted by IBK
I think despite an opinion I hold about Arteta as a person which I think almost everyone here regards as obscurantist, I certainly don’t think anyone here holds a messianic view of him
But, if you look at social media in general there are those who equate being critical of Arteta with hating Arsenal (even with supporters of Arsenal). They talk about him as though he walks on water. And the word “disrespectful” comes across as “blasphemous” in that context.
I also think they don’t like the fact that it’s the truth, and it will remain the truth until Arteta wins something big
If someone says online “Have faith in Mikel” I’d think they should be psychiatrically evaluated. But that’s not because it’s Arteta, I’m instinctively repelled by the idea that one should defer doubt and misgivings and should place faith in anyone or anything for that matter.
No one is deserving of that
We are vying for top spot at the moment so in that sense, yes. But it's not the intensity we had with Utd back in the day where the duopoly meant it all got quite nasty. And it's not a local rivalry like with Spurs - they aren't rivals at all in terms of the level of the clubs, but there's the local derby and the history there.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Most of the time with Liverpool I'm fairly indifferent to them.
Right. So why be a prick about the fact they've won the title this year. I know that football fans are, in general, bloody idiots. But going to the effort of making banners. I mean, it's not going to keep me up at night. Just seems like unnecessary twattery. I guess it's the era we're living in where everything is now about trolling and creating memes.Quote:
I think there has been a long standing respect between our two sides which goes back to the night of May 26th 1989 where our players brought bouquets of flowers to the supporters because of the almost unfathomable loss they’d gone through six weeks earlier
Rightly or wrongly they are responding to the fact that a lot of our fans have said that PGMOL have handed Liverpool the title (a claim so outlandish that even I wouldn’t make).Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Also a rivalry doesn’t need to be a duopoly for two sets of fans to get at each other. Liverpool were going for the title last season, I didn’t think they would this season because I think Klopp got more out of those players than they were capable of. But I didn’t account for Salah having a god mode season or Arsenal and City both having trouble.
That said whilst I think they won’t retain the title, I think they will challenge to retain it, therefore in going for what we are going for…it makes them rivals.
And digging at us, in a way that’s only nasty if you’ve stopped worshipping God and started worshipping a 43 year old Basque Spaniard….is part of that.
In the recent past, both clubs have rarely challenged at the same time…therefore we want to think that relations between the fan bases can only ever be cordial. I’m not advocating for us kicking the shit out of each other, but a bit of mutual abuse is good for the game imo