Women's World Cup

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Well that context is entirely different - that's two people in their own personal time who have been on a date so when they go on that date they both know there is a possibility of a physical encounter, but if as you say the guy pulls away immediately then that is fine

we are talking about a man working in his professional capacity, representing the whole of Spanish football on a world stage, taking the opportunity to kiss a young woman while guessing, correctly, she wouldn't pull away and make a scene

I don't buy the exuberance argument at all, he's too old and too experienced and in too senior a professional job to let his guard off like that, IMO it was someone trying to take advantage, we will have to disagree on that because neither of us can prove we're right

Ultimately he let himself down either way and the signal it sends is too great to be ignored

You keep ignoring my point about letting him off being a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it

If, in order to prevent many such scenarios, it means having to come down hard on Rubiales then so be it

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The exuberance argument is purely one of Occam’s razor, because the alternative explanation is that someone has conspired to act in a predatory way in front of potentially millions of people globally…you are essentially into the territory of psychopathy…the inability to feel shame.

The Rubiales incident has no features of anything that could at all be easily replicated for the reasons I give above, if a man kisses a woman in a predatory way it’s going to be be in a clandestine setting, most people even if they are willing to engage in such behaviour don’t have it within them to do it brazenly in front of countless people.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

The Rubiales incident has no features of anything that could at all be easily replicated for the reasons I give above, if a man kisses a woman in a predatory way it’s going to be be in a clandestine setting, most people even if they are willing to engage in such behaviour don’t have it within them to do it brazenly in front of countless people.

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OK so now you're giving a 'snog in the office stationary cupboard/outside a work drinks' example, but whatever it still gives the woman firmer ground to tell the man he's wrong, knowing there is a high-profile incident of a man begin rightly forced to give up his job because of it, it affirms she is in the right not to accept such bahaviour

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Originally Posted by Mac76

OK so now you're giving a 'snog in the office stationary cupboard/outside a work drinks' example, but whatever it still gives the woman firmer ground to tell the man he's wrong, knowing there is a high-profile incident of a man begin rightly forced to give up his job because of it, it affirms she is in the right not to accept such bahaviour

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By assuming the worst about someone’s intentions in a completely unrelated incident?

I see

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Playing devils advocate here but if someone held your wife and planted a kiss on her lips, what else would you call it if it’s not forced?

I’m in full agreement that the reaction has been a little bit disproportionate but I also feel like what he did was totally inappropriate and although it’s obviously at the lower end of the “abuse” scale, I guess it would still have to be considered abuse given the lack of consent.

Where he fucked up most was not immediately showing contrition, accepting he made a mistake and acknowledging why women were outraged.

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Happens all the time - well it's a social norm to kiss someone eg in greeting, and I have known many female friends to have been brushed on the lips in this way, and have had this conversation with some of them. The consensus would undoubtedly be that most women take note of the intent, and unless a more hostile intent is felt, they do not regard it as sexual assault even if they may prefer not to have been kissed. While Rubiales admittedly did more than this - and I accept fully that this was unwanted - my issue is escalating this act to sexual assault. Intent is everything and while we will never know what Rubiales' intent was it is possible in theory that the kiss was over exuberance in the moment rather than anything darker.

I want to emphasise that Hermoso's feelings are of course valid, and I do not regard myself as mysogynistic. Also, my comments relate to the single act itself and not to Rubiales' past history - whatever this is. I do however worry about our societal tendency to escalate matters - which as I say can be unhelful to a justifiable cause. FWIW as an ethnic minority, I felt exactly the same about the furore surrounding Lady Susan Hussey's comments to Ngozi Fulani last year...but that's another debate.

We are on the same page regarding Rubiales' reaction though.

Oh yeah Rubiales is a tit and his reaction was completely unbecoming, therefore for that reason I don’t have any sympathy for him.

But equally what happened is a storm in a tea cup, though unlike that Wengerbabies Wally who seems just to be a garden variety troll I don’t dismiss Hermoso’s feelings. I think it was wholly inappropriate what happened and I’d be upset about it. Though I’m very mindful about this clamour for people to lose their livelihoods and not because they care about the victim but because as human beings we still have that unfortunate tendency to get catharsis from the public defenestration of others. That’s why even the most well meaning campaigns quickly form into Lynch mobs.
If someone can convince themselves that their lust for mob justice is righteous they will happily enter into a feeding frenzy.

But equally that has to be tempered against things I hear from women about how they are horrendously assaulted and they are deprived any kind of justice. It’s bad enough here with the conviction rate at 2% of all reported rapes/sexual assaults….it’s not even worth getting into how women are treated in other parts of the world

I just don’t think that’s solved by becoming a hammer and looking at everything like it’s a nail.

On the subject of Public Shaming, I advise anyone to read So you’ve been Publicly Shamed? By John Ronson. That really crystallises for me about how the zeal for punishing “transgressors” far overshadows any sense of justice.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

But equally what happened is a storm in a tea cup

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It's this that you don't understand, a man forcing a woman into a kiss in front of millions of viewrs is highly significant, not a storm in a teacup

allow me to quote myself in terms of why it is important, namely that not taking firm action would be "a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it"

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Playing devils advocate here but if someone held your wife and planted a kiss on her lips, what else would you call it if it’s not forced?

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Well, firstly I'd question his eyesight and sanity.
But, more seriously, it depends on exactly what they did and the context.

If they walked in the door, pinned her to the wall and stuck his tongue down her throat then I think that would come under the definition of forcing himself on her. If, in the context of a house party to watch England in the World Cup final, which we win, and presupposing MrsL cared about that enough to be joining in with the celebrations. In that context when people are celebrating with each other if he kissed her fairly briefly on the lips then...well yeah, I'd probably think that was a bit odd and not really on, but it's not the same as the first scenario is it?

And that's the problem I have with that language. That sort of language would be used for rape or serious sexual assault, it's not what happened here. Using the same language conflates the two. I'm not convinced I'd call it abuse. But it was certainly inappropriate behaviour. I don't know what "consent" is needed or given in the context of celebrations where people are behaving in a less inhibited manner than they would normally.

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Where he fucked up most was not immediately showing contrition, accepting he made a mistake and acknowledging why women were outraged.

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Well I certainly agree with that.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

It's this that you don't understand, a man forcing a woman into a kiss in front of millions of viewrs is highly significant, not a storm in a teacup

allow me to quote myself in terms of why it is important, namely that not taking firm action would be "a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it"

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I don’t know how old you are, but clearly it’s impressive that you’ve got through life without being able to grasp that not agreeing with you is not a case of misunderstanding. You can explain it to me as many ways as you like, I don’t buy your argument.

Not only that but I’ve already explained why I don’t buy it. I haven’t said that Rubiales did nothing wrong, but I cannot see how in any possible sense that him issuing a public apology for a lapse of good judgement (which is what he should have done without the tone deaf defensive press conference) is going to have any effect on the predatory mindset. Primarly because this is such an extraordinary stand alone situation.

So rephrase it anyway you wish, it won’t make a blind bit of difference. For what it’s worth you’ve explained your position very clearly….and I reject it

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Originally Posted by Mac76

It's this that you don't understand, a man forcing a woman into a kiss in front of millions of viewrs is highly significant, not a storm in a teacup

allow me to quote myself in terms of why it is important, namely that not taking firm action would be "a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it"

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Have you ever touched a woman?