This Weekend's Fixtures & Midwek Fixtures (29/30 Nov/01/03/04/05 Dec)

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Originally Posted by Mac76

depends - I think he was a bit defensive when we went to 10 men, especially against Brighton when I think we could still have got three points, and failing to sign another attacker as an obvious error

But the rediculous red cards we've had, plus Citeh getting as much extra time as they needed to equalise at their place, are not on Arteta

Nor are the injuries, most of which have been caused by these ridiculous no-one-gives-a-fcuk internationals they have to keep jetting off to play in

If we play well from now on and give Liverpool a run for their money to finish a good second I think he has enough mitigating circs on his side

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Sorry Mac, I can't agree with you less, especially on him using the unfair red cards as a get out of jail card.

Let me make it clear, IMO all our red cards were unfair. However, there is a culture that Arteta has instilled in the team of wasting time when we are ahead. Even on Saturday, our players were still delaying freekicks and doing the same things that "apparently" got Rice and Trossard sent off. However, every other team does this, but I would have expected Arteta to have coached it out of his players by now, since we've been targeted as the designated fall guy for this unsportsmanlike behaviour. Mark my words, we will still get someone else sent off for this...and that will be totally Arteta's fault for being a poor leader.

Anyway, like you also mentioned, playing with 10 men is not a death sentence and like you have all preached to HCZ, injuries and luck usually go round in a 38 game season, thus at least with the injuries part, you should have made adequate preparations.

I can't even imagine what would happen if Saka got injured for the rest of the season or where we would finish. That stupid over reliance on a single player (like what happened with Odegaard) is bad management. He had the Saliba season to learn from that mistake and has clearly over fortified the defence in response to that. Why he wouldn't have attempted to even try something similar for the attack beats my imagination.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Oh if Chelsea won the title it absolutely would be a Leicester City event, far more than Liverpool in the sense that they were basically mid table last season

And No given that my argument about Chelsea is that unlike Man City they’ve never attempted to build a consistent winning team since Mourinho went, winning the title and then disappearing back to mid table obscurity because of the chaotic way they run the club and are asking for massive trouble with their wage bill….i don’t think them winning the title (as unlikely as that is).


Now the one thing I will say for Liverpool is I think they are a very well run club, despite you espousing the merits of hiring and firing. They brought in the bald Dutchman because Klopp chose to go not because they fired him for finishing third.


If Liverpool win the title (and I think where we probably agree is that it should be curtains for Arteta if they do) is that it actually promotes a settled and long term approach, because I think if they do (and I still think 9 points is not the insurmountable lead that people assume it is) then they are far more likely to be stable enough to gradually build on that success rather than a revolving door hiring policy for coaches and players

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You are usually a "good" student of history but it's like you just want to pretend that Leicester winning the league wasn't something out of this world.

Anyway, at the beginning of this season, Liverpool were 3rd favourites by the bookies with odds of 13/2. Chelsea, joint 5th with Spurs with odds of 25/1.

The year Leicester won the league most bookies didn't even have odds for them when the book opened as they barley escaped relegation the previous season. In fact they were odds on at 1/20 to get relegated. Finally when the season started the bookies relented and they were 5000/1 (the highest the bookies could nominally put) to win the league.

Any comparison of a traditional big 6 side chances with Leicester's achievement that year will remain ridiculous for so many glaring reasons.

As for Liverpool winning the league this year being a triumph for stability and keeping things the same.....you are clearly clutching at straws and singing a different tune to what you said about them at the start of the season.

My argument back then was that it seemed silly to me to assume that Liverpool would finish above us especially given how they’d finished comfortably below us the two proceeding seasons, that they had not significantly strengthened and to top it all they had a new coach which invariably when a new coach replaces a coach that has been there sometime it doesn’t lend itself well to immediate success.

My comparison with Leicester City is that Liverpool find themselves in a position that no one really predicted that they would be in, now I get that there are differences in that the standard wisdom would be that Leicester would be more likely battling relegation than battling for the title, but the similarity is that Liverpool are where they are (9 points clear) as a result of Arsenal’s indifferent form and City’s collapse.

In 2015/2016 if you look at the table, neither City, Chelsea or us got any higher than 71 points. Now whilst not as extreme as that, I do think if Liverpool win the title it will be more likely that they do so with a lower points total than what other clubs have achieved in recent seasons. I don’t think for example that they will better the 84 points we got in 2022/2023.

I say that because despite winning the same amount of points after 13 games two years ago, Arsenal were only two points clear of Man City.


I agree with you in so far that Leicester’s title win is hard to compare with anything else because of how unprecedented it was. I suppose from my perspective it’s about them potentially winning a title that hitherto no one thought they were realistically capable of and unlike other people, I’m still yet to be convinced that they are, whilst I did not expect them to be 9 points clear I did say that because they had much easier fixtures (especially compared to ours) that it was possible that that for some time their league position might seem deceptive.

I of course accept the argument Letters makes that you still have to win the games you’re expected to.


Also I don’t really think what I said about Liverpool contradicts what I’ve said now which is that they are a well run club. That I dismissed them as title contenders for this season doesn’t really diminish that, because when running a club sustainably you do to a degree need to look at the bigger picture. With the exception of the odd season here or there they have been a model of consistency, and they have been taking a much more gradual approach to phasing out ageing players with newer ones.

I don’t think Gakpo, Nunez are as good as Firminho and Mane, but who knows if both will significantly improve

If I was to compare Arsenal to any other sporting entity at the moment, it would be Nigel Mansell in the mid-late 1980s. A lot of wins but ultimately little to show for it. My ambition certainly runs higher than the single title he won at the last

And using the same parallel with Liverpool, if they do win the title they will be more in the Alan Jones or Keke Rosberg bracket than Prost or Senna.

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

Sorry Mac, I can't agree with you less, especially on him using the unfair red cards as a get out of jail card.

Let me make it clear, IMO all our red cards were unfair. However, there is a culture that Arteta has instilled in the team of wasting time when we are ahead. Even on Saturday, our players were still delaying freekicks and doing the same things that "apparently" got Rice and Trossard sent off. However, every other team does this, but I would have expected Arteta to have coached it out of his players by now, since we've been targeted as the designated fall guy for this unsportsmanlike behaviour. Mark my words, we will still get someone else sent off for this...and that will be totally Arteta's fault for being a poor leader.

Anyway, like you also mentioned, playing with 10 men is not a death sentence and like you have all preached to HCZ, injuries and luck usually go round in a 38 game season, thus at least with the injuries part, you should have made adequate preparations.

I can't even imagine what would happen if Saka got injured for the rest of the season or where we would finish. That stupid over reliance on a single player (like what happened with Odegaard) is bad management. He had the Saliba season to learn from that mistake and has clearly over fortified the defence in response to that. Why he wouldn't have attempted to even try something similar for the attack beats my imagination.

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Sure the preparations point is valid, we did need another forward/winger if we were going to lose all of ESR, Vieira and Nelson and while I'm not as down on Sterling as some, he clearly wasn't the answer and Jesus can't score for toffee

That said there are sometimes almost irreplaceable players - think Rodri, Salah or in the past KDB - but you do need to have a better Plan B than we had without Odegaard, again especially without ESR, if nothing else Nwaneri could have been used a bit more

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

My argument back then was that it seemed silly to me to assume that Liverpool would finish above us especially given how they’d finished comfortably below us the two proceeding seasons, that they had not significantly strengthened and to top it all they had a new coach which invariably when a new coach replaces a coach that has been there sometime it doesn’t lend itself well to immediate success..........

I don’t think Gakpo, Nunez are as good as Firminho and Mane, but who knows if both will significantly improve

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The parts above are probably true and hard to disagree with.

Like you, I don't think they've got a better squad than us ( maybe a more balanced one though) but if it was solely about the squads, the Citehs and Chelseas would have won every league title for the last 20 years.

Anyway, the team I saw on Saturday looks determined and fearless.....the hunger in their eyes is something I did not see coming at the beginning of the season, especially with the supposed demise of "heavy metal' football with Klopp going.


I always felt the players saw him as some sort of great leader, their X factor, but its beginning to look like in his latter years he was holding some players back, e.g. Sallah.

In short, I believe their success has been down to being managed properly, and Slott, at the moment, squeezing out the best from what he's got. I do not think their early fixtures is the main reason they are at the top, they've played well and been in good form.

But I still think, or should I say hope, something will happen and they don't end up with the tittle.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Sure the preparations point is valid, we did need another forward/winger if we were going to lose all of ESR, Vieira and Nelson and while I'm not as down on Sterling as some, he clearly wasn't the answer and Jesus can't score for toffee

That said there are sometimes almost irreplaceable players - think Rodri, Salah or in the past KDB - but you do need to have a better Plan B than we had without Odegaard, again especially without ESR, if nothing else Nwaneri could have been used a bit more

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I actually think how we played without Odegaard cost us more than the red cards....

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

The parts above are probably true and hard to disagree with.

Like you, I don't think they've got a better squad than us ( maybe a more balanced one though) but if it was solely about the squads, the Citehs and Chelseas would have won every league title for the last 20 years.

Anyway, the team I saw on Saturday looks determined and fearless.....the hunger in their eyes is something I did not see coming at the beginning of the season, especially with the supposed demise of "heavy metal' football with Klopp going.


I always felt the players saw him as some sort of great leader, their X factor, but its beginning to look like in his latter years he was holding some players back, e.g. Sallah.

In short, I believe there success has been down to being managed properly, and Slott, at the moment, squeezing out the best from what he's got. I do not think their early fixtures is the main reason they are at the top, they've played well and been in good form.

But I still think, or should I say hope, something will happen and they don't end up with the tittle.

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Sallah, Slott and tittle :lol:

You need to cut down on your double letters

But I think Slot has taken the relentlessness out of Klopp's approach to allow the players to keep up the pace and that could well be an advantage even if they don't look as exciting and some of the results are closer

Imagine what this guy will do when he can shape the team a bit more

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Sallah, Slott and tittle :lol:

You need to cut down on your double letters

But I think Slot has taken the relentlessness out of Klopp's approach to allow the players to keep up the pace and that could well be an advantage even if they don't look as exciting and some of the results are closer

Imagine what this guy will do when he can shape the team a bit more

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See this is where I completely disagree.

I think he tried that approach in the first few games and then they looked lethargic and ultimately toothless against Forest. I think since then he’s reverted to type with the high intensity game. Basically been smart enough not to try and massively change what has been for Liverpool a winning formula.

I think every now and again the languid style of the Dutchman creeps in (first half against Southampton) but the high pressing, high intensity style that’s been inculcated in these players by Klopp reasserts itself


Hard to know why Klopp stepped down, could be family issues could have been that he was tired of getting ridiculous points totals yet still finishing behind City. If the latter he should have shown patience.

As much as i think we should have beaten Liverpool back in October, I think Klopp would have smelt blood and taken us to school. But he’s a top, top coach (in my view probably the best coach the premier league has seen in years)

And if Klopp was still in charge, I think I’d have given up on the title with nine point gap

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Sallah, Slott and tittle :lol:

You need to cut down on your double letters

But I think Slot has taken the relentlessness out of Klopp's approach to allow the players to keep up the pace and that could well be an advantage even if they don't look as exciting and some of the results are closer

Imagine what this guy will do when he can shape the team a bit more

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:lol: I've obviously not done my usual Haalaand thing for a while....

Though I think Slot has done remarkably well with Klopp's team, Maresca has done the same with mainly Poochs players. Though its early days, we might see the same from Amorim.

So going back to the earlier debate on keeping managers and building with them for like 3-4 years, I am beginning to think that kind of "Stability" is vastly overrated and the Real Madrid model seems to be the way to deal with the modern superstars.