match reaction v chelsea

With the irony being that finally there is genuine hope.

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Originally Posted by Letters

You're kinda changing the subject. You started by saying it was only our early season form which saw us in a false position. That's simply not true. After 29 games we were 4 points off the top with a game in hand. We were in the title race until Saturday. Some of the players you mentioned aren't first team regulars anyway and as for the rest...well, certainly we need more up front, we all know that, but our squad can't be that bad or we wouldn't have stayed up there for so long.

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No subject change - I said "early season" - You said "after 29 games" - hardly early season. My point was that, as per usual, once we had shit ourselves against the better teams we should have seen the writing on the wall for this year, some of us did.

No subject change - BIG clearout needed - if we are to compete with the big boys. If you want to scrap for 4th/5th/6th every year & hopefully nick a cup now & again, then I agree with you. It really depends on what you expect from the promises you were made by our board.

Arteta was a fucking embarrassment.

Looking back at the highlights of the first half, it's laughable how the transexual pouting bastard tries to run back to catch their players at the pace of a snail.

What a bang average player. How he's starting for a top 4 team is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

No, I posted it to counter the idea that ALL he said was he was puzzled.

Also, there is an amazing correlation between these "modern" managers and the billions they have spent or inherited, don't you think? Are there no modern managers below us in the table? And if there are, is it correct to claim complete incompetence in all aspects of football? because if you are completely incompetent then how do you end up with a team placed above most of these modern greats after 30 games? It makes no sense. Perhaps there is a middle ground buried beneath the media guff. Problems yes, offset against respectable achievement.

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Totally agree.

If we're going to have this conversation, then I think it's important to make the distinction between manager and head coach: Wenger, for me, is a manager (and maybe one of the last genuine managers left in the game at a top club), and the reason he's paid so much is because his list of responsibilities for the past two decades has extended a lot further than simply handling first team matters (also, when you've been at a single employer that long, the yearly incremental pay increases tend to add up); guys like Jose Mourinho are head coaches - very good at what he does, yes, but he has no other responsibilities beyond putting the first team together and getting them ready for matches (incidentally, Jose, this is why you are judged solely on the success you achieve on the pitch and Arsene Wenger is not - because that's the only criteria by which anyone can judge you).

Personally speaking, I don't think Arsene Wenger has anything to apologize for - the Jose Mourinhos of this world may well point to the recent trophiless years, but winning trophies isn't quite as unique and special as the special one would like everyone to think. Sure, it's what the fans want to see, but you'll find hundreds of other coaches and managers who have won trophies in their time (Wenger included). What Wenger has achieved from a management POV though, during his time at the club, is almost unique, and I'm really struggling to think of anyone else who could have done the same job? To have emerged from nearly a decade of being financially hamstrung, whilst your rivals have been more powerful (and more numerous) than ever, with one of the best new stadiums in the world, state of the art training facilities, hundreds of millions of pounds of new sponsorship money coming in, the largest cash reserves of any club in the world, and a team that has managed to consistently stay in the CL spots and is only really behind clubs that are being bankrolled by reckless billionaires, is quite frankly remarkable. Sure, this has all come at a cost - as a head coach, it looks like Arsene has fallen behind the times a bit, and the first team certainly hasn't been as successful as it could have been if we'd been fully focussed on it - but make no mistake; we've needed a top manager to steer us through this period far more than we've needed top coach to chuck money around and win the odd cup.

Now that doesn't mean that question marks about Wenger's future, and where we go from here aren't completely valid: whilst I think the man's achievements as a manager are extraordinary, I've also said that I think he's slipped a little bit behind the times on the coaching front, and the massive irony here is that, through his work, we now have a modern day super-club, where most things take care of themselves, and where it's perfectly reasonable to ask whether we actually still need a manager who runs everything any more, or whether we'd now be better off with a specialist head coach, with more up-to-date methods and fresh ideas, who's only responsibility is the success of the first team? If that's the case then I don't think Arsene should feel any shame about stepping down - even if we bottle the FA Cup, he can hold his head high, knowing that he's been the most successful manager in our history, has given us the best teams and the best footballing moments we've ever had (and may ever have) as Arsenal fans, and has left us this remarkable legacy, where all future Arsenal coaches / managers will have nothing very much to worry about.

What I think is utterly out of order and completely unnecessary, though, is the ridicule and abuse that Wenger is constantly subjected to - no, we haven't won anything for a few years, and , yes, we've slipped behind our main rivals, but look at the league table and how we're doing in other competitions: we're still better than 99% of the clubs out there across the world, even if we keep falling short, and we probably have more potential than anyone else right now. Show the man the respect he deserves, because a large part of our remarkable potential is down to his vision and careful management...

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

No subject change - I said "early season" - You said "after 29 games" - hardly early season. My point was that, as per usual, once we had shit ourselves against the better teams we should have seen the writing on the wall for this year, some of us did.

No subject change - BIG clearout needed - if we are to compete with the big boys. If you want to scrap for 4th/5th/6th every year & hopefully nick a cup now & again, then I agree with you. It really depends on what you expect from the promises you were made by our board.

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Why do you think a big clear out of players will make a change. The new players coming in will soon be indoctrinated into the same lethargic, crass performances that we have seen for 7 years. If you have cancer in your brain. A leg transplant is not going to help.
Get to the root of the problem if you really wish to make a change

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Why do you think a big clear out of players will make a change. The new players coming in will soon be indoctrinated into the same lethargic, crass performances that we have seen for 7 years. If you have cancer in your brain. A leg transplant is not going to help.
Get to the root of the problem if you really wish to make a change

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If you took the time to read my post you will see it starts with Wenger out

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

If you took the time to read my post you will see it starts with Wenger out

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Suitably contrite me. I saw the cut and paste job and thought it was the whole post. If Wenger cannot fathom the problems, then he is not the man to fix them. Here's hoping

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...red-card-error

Disgrace!

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Martínez believes introducing live video replays for decisions during matches would be going too far. He said: "I think we would be going a little bit too far. I think goal-line technology was a really important breakthrough but from that point on I think we need to allow referees to do their job."

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I saw a comment after the game that sums things up, in a capital city where there's 1 camera to spy on every 5 people, it's somewhat amazing football pitches are a camera free zone.

Also it's a little unfair on Marriner because he didn't even see the handball. He got a message from some incompetent moron on the sidelines that caused him to drop such a clanger. Whoever that retard was has managed to escape scrutiny and has left the ref to carry the can. What a coward, what a piece of shit.

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

Totally agree.

If we're going to have this conversation, then I think it's important to make the distinction between manager and head coach: Wenger, for me, is a manager (and maybe one of the last genuine managers left in the game at a top club), and the reason he's paid so much is because his list of responsibilities for the past two decades has extended a lot further than simply handling first team matters (also, when you've been at a single employer that long, the yearly incremental pay increases tend to add up); guys like Jose Mourinho are head coaches - very good at what he does, yes, but he has no other responsibilities beyond putting the first team together and getting them ready for matches (incidentally, Jose, this is why you are judged solely on the success you achieve on the pitch and Arsene Wenger is not - because that's the only criteria by which anyone can judge you).

Personally speaking, I don't think Arsene Wenger has anything to apologize for - the Jose Mourinhos of this world may well point to the recent trophiless years, but winning trophies isn't quite as unique and special as the special one would like everyone to think. Sure, it's what the fans want to see, but you'll find hundreds of other coaches and managers who have won trophies in their time (Wenger included). What Wenger has achieved from a management POV though, during his time at the club, is almost unique, and I'm really struggling to think of anyone else who could have done the same job? To have emerged from nearly a decade of being financially hamstrung, whilst your rivals have been more powerful (and more numerous) than ever, with one of the best new stadiums in the world, state of the art training facilities, hundreds of millions of pounds of new sponsorship money coming in, the largest cash reserves of any club in the world, and a team that has managed to consistently stay in the CL spots and is only really behind clubs that are being bankrolled by reckless billionaires, is quite frankly remarkable. Sure, this has all come at a cost - as a head coach, it looks like Arsene has fallen behind the times a bit, and the first team certainly hasn't been as successful as it could have been if we'd been fully focussed on it - but make no mistake; we've needed a top manager to steer us through this period far more than we've needed top coach to chuck money around and win the odd cup.

Now that doesn't mean that question marks about Wenger's future, and where we go from here aren't completely valid: whilst I think the man's achievements as a manager are extraordinary, I've also said that I think he's slipped a little bit behind the times on the coaching front, and the massive irony here is that, through his work, we now have a modern day super-club, where most things take care of themselves, and where it's perfectly reasonable to ask whether we actually still need a manager who runs everything any more, or whether we'd now be better off with a specialist head coach, with more up-to-date methods and fresh ideas, who's only responsibility is the success of the first team? If that's the case then I don't think Arsene should feel any shame about stepping down - even if we bottle the FA Cup, he can hold his head high, knowing that he's been the most successful manager in our history, has given us the best teams and the best footballing moments we've ever had (and may ever have) as Arsenal fans, and has left us this remarkable legacy, where all future Arsenal coaches / managers will have nothing very much to worry about.

What I think is utterly out of order and completely unnecessary, though, is the ridicule and abuse that Wenger is constantly subjected to - no, we haven't won anything for a few years, and , yes, we've slipped behind our main rivals, but look at the league table and how we're doing in other competitions: we're still better than 99% of the clubs out there across the world, even if we keep falling short, and we probably have more potential than anyone else right now. Show the man the respect he deserves, because a large part of our remarkable potential is down to his vision and careful management...

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:gp:

Wenger has his flaws, and I believe it is time for him to call it a day at the end of the season.

But he deserves better than some of the vitriole spouted by so called Arsenal fans.