Wenger - does he even understand whats wrong?

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Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner

(2) "Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%?" So, only a successful player can appreciate what is necessary for players they manage to be successful? You had better tell Alex Ferguson that he will never make it as a successful manager because his playing career was so crap.

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I think NS means that people who have had sucess and love for a certain club, would give more for it. AW has no ties to AFC so really owes them nothing maybe in his view, all he is doing is getting paid.

Does AW really have passion for the club? i mean he is no way like King kenny is he, i mean the club has never has an era of dominace has it. Maybe its easier for aw not to win things because its not a requitement at the club and has not really been so unlike UTD.

AW has a passion for the Club. That cannot be disputed in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ItsMe

He's doesn't want to understand as he's so adamant his way is the right way. Sometimes it just feels like he's on a crusade to prove people wrong at all costs, he contuinues to do things because people are saying he shouldn't.

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This. That's why I've given up on him and want him to go now.

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

I think NS means that people who have had sucess and love for a certain club, would give more for it. AW has no ties to AFC so really owes them nothing maybe in his view, all he is doing is getting paid.

Does AW really have passion for the club? i mean he is no way like King kenny is he, i mean the club has never has an era of dominace has it. Maybe its easier for aw not to win things because its not a requitement at the club and has not really been so unlike UTD.

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What a load of bollocks. Were Ferguson and Mourinho successful at the club they played at? [P.S. Trick question.]

In answer to the question: Does Wenger have a passion for the club? The answer is yes but not as a fan who buys tickets. He would have the same passion for which ever club he was managing.

no he hasn't got a clue --- i'm afraid to say he is a wan*ker.

if this man could insult our intelligence anymore than he has been doing he will!

his own captain has called his philosophy into question. Previous captains (henry and vieira) also did before they got fed up and jumped ship.

Back then people called these guy's motives into question (some even called them mercenaries) and claimed the future was bright. Six years on and the new captain and some squadies are also hinting at the same thing.

Fool me once....

I'd never question Wenger's commitment to Arsenal FC, I'm sure he's desperate to win just like we are.

The problem is that he has his vision of how a club should be run and is far too stubborn to change the course of how things are going. He's invested so much time emotionally in these players and they consistently let him down. When he talks about their "remarkable spirit" "maturity" etc... who is he trying to kid? He's spoken for 2 years now about our defensive fragility but nothing has changed.

I think he's completely blinded now and set in his ways. I don't expect to win another trophy with him in charge and this contract which ends in 2014 will almost certainly be his last.

@ TG

A curious post.

Like I said, the WHU comments merely got me thinking as to where AW's blind spot might be. I was not suggesting that a successful manager has to have played for the team he manages. Far from it.

Neither was I suggesting that if you haven't played at top level, you can't understand what it takes. I was saying that in Wenger's case, the fact that he hasn't may have prevented him from truly appreciating this aspect of the game.

Since you mention SAF. Lets compare their backgrounds. SAF comes from Scottish football, where if anything passion, heart, fight is more important than anything else - in leagues where talent in in relatively short supply. He has this aspect of the game in his DNA and has woven it into all of his teams with incredible effect. AW's background is in French football, which generally is very different, less tribal in character.

Put succinctly, I can see AW's current style of football being very successful in France - with the game being less frenetic/physical/direct than it tends to be here. I don't claim to be an expert - but I wonder whether this 'character' that we all agree must be present in an EPL winning side is quite as important - relative to skill/technical ability - over the channel.

Now of course, Wenger has managed in England for 15 years now - so you would have thought that he would be well conditioned to the needs of the English game. But as I say, he inherited much of his first league winning side - who knew everything about what fighting for the club meant. He created near-perfection with the Invincibles - many of whom had played with the team he first inherited, and several of whom were truly seasoned players in their own right.

And many of the decisions he has taken in the past 6 years demonstrate a lamentable under-appreciation of these virtues. Look at the players he has signed. On the whole bland as well as young. You get the strong impression that he wants blank canvasses who will follow the Wenger way without challenge. He ships out older players who might mentor his youngsters, then excuses them when they put in spineless performances. A Terry; Ferdinand; Carragher type would tear them a new one on the pitch, in the dressing room.

The fact that AW has set his stall out (so it would seem) on technical ability over all else is, I would submit, ample justification for my question.

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Originally Posted by Nasri Scoreng
Listening to some pundits on 5 Live discussing who should manage West Ham now, I was struck by the unanimity in fans saying that he should be someone who has played for the club and understands its traditions.

When I look back on the past 6 seasons, I honestly can't say that I have seen players whose heart and soul is in the club (Wilshere apart?).

Wenger inherited this quality when he first arrived. His Invincibles played with players who knew what it meant to play for Arsenal.

We are all agreed that this is what is missing now, when our players, though capable enough, will not fight that extra bit. It has been thrown into sharp relief with the CC final and following debacle this season.

Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%? And never will.
There are two things in this initial post that have to be commented on.

(1) It is fine and dandy for Wet Sham fans to be united in their desire to have a manager who "who has played for the club and understands its traditions" but coming from a team that has just got relegated and has never won the top division (3rd being the highest), they are not looking for a successful manager.

(2) "Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%?" So, only a successful player can appreciate what is necessary for players they manage to be successful? You had better tell Alex Ferguson that he will never make it as a successful manager because his playing career was so crap.

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A curious post.

Like I said, the WHU comments merely got me thinking as to where AW's blind spot might be. I was not suggesting that a successful manager has to have played for the team he manages. Far from it.

Neither was I suggesting that if you haven't played at top level, you can't understand what it takes. I was saying that in Wenger's case, the fact that he hasn't may have prevented him from truly appreciating this aspect of the game.

Since you mention SAF. Lets compare their backgrounds. SAF comes from Scottish football, where if anything passion, heart, fight is more important than anything else - in leagues where talent in in relatively short supply. He has this aspect of the game in his DNA and has woven it into all of his teams with incredible effect. AW's background is in French football, which generally is very different, less tribal in character.

Put succinctly, I can see AW's current style of football being very successful in France - with the game being less frenetic/physical/direct than it tends to be here. I don't claim to be an expert - but I wonder whether this 'character' that we all agree must be present in an EPL winning side is quite as important - relative to skill/technical ability - over the channel.

Now of course, Wenger has managed in England for 15 years now - so you would have thought that he would be well conditioned to the needs of the English game. But as I say, he inherited much of his first league winning side - who knew everything about what fighting for the club meant. He created near-perfection with the Invincibles - many of whom had played with the team he first inherited, and several of whom were truly seasoned players in their own right.

And many of the decisions he has taken in the past 6 years demonstrate a lamentable under-appreciation of these virtues. Look at the players he has signed. On the whole bland as well as young. You get the strong impression that he wants blank canvasses who will follow the Wenger way without challenge. He ships out older players who might mentor his youngsters, then excuses them when they put in spineless performances. A Terry; Ferdinand; Carragher type would tear them a new one on the pitch, in the dressing room.

The fact that AW has set his stall out (so it would seem) on technical ability over all else is, I would submit, ample justification for my question.[/QUOTE]

The most successful Premier League sides have all been about pace, strength and athleticism. You can't away with another style of Football over here, you just can't because you're not afforded the time and space on the ball. It's quite a unique league and country for Football. I remember when I was on holiday last year in America and we had a little kick around with some Italian students...they were only 15-16 but they were pretty much playing Barca style, one twos, threading balls through etc, we couldn't believe it...you'd never see kids over here playing like that. It's set in our culture here and to go against that grain leaves us fighting a lost cause IMO. Also our moral stance on how the game "should" be played makes us prime targets for teams like Stoke who have taken exception to our beliefs and try that little bit harder against us to put us in our place.

I can't understand why Wenger has overlooked these key attributes to Football over here when his past sides have been so successful because of it.

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Originally Posted by Nasri Scoreng

@ TG

A curious post.

Like I said, the WHU comments merely got me thinking as to where AW's blind spot might be. I was not suggesting that a successful manager has to have played for the team he manages. Far from it.

Neither was I suggesting that if you haven't played at top level, you can't understand what it takes. I was saying that in Wenger's case, the fact that he hasn't may have prevented him from truly appreciating this aspect of the game.

Since you mention SAF. Lets compare their backgrounds. SAF comes from Scottish football, where if anything passion, heart, fight is more important than anything else - in leagues where talent in in relatively short supply. He has this aspect of the game in his DNA and has woven it into all of his teams with incredible effect. AW's background is in French football, which generally is very different, less tribal in character.

Put succinctly, I can see AW's current style of football being very successful in France - with the game being less frenetic/physical/direct than it tends to be here. I don't claim to be an expert - but I wonder whether this 'character' that we all agree must be present in an EPL winning side is quite as important - relative to skill/technical ability - over the channel.

Now of course, Wenger has managed in England for 15 years now - so you would have thought that he would be well conditioned to the needs of the English game. But as I say, he inherited much of his first league winning side - who knew everything about what fighting for the club meant. He created near-perfection with the Invincibles - many of whom had played with the team he first inherited, and several of whom were truly seasoned players in their own right.

And many of the decisions he has taken in the past 6 years demonstrate a lamentable under-appreciation of these virtues. Look at the players he has signed. On the whole bland as well as young. You get the strong impression that he wants blank canvasses who will follow the Wenger way without challenge. He ships out older players who might mentor his youngsters, then excuses them when they put in spineless performances. A Terry; Ferdinand; Carragher type would tear them a new one on the pitch, in the dressing room.

The fact that AW has set his stall out (so it would seem) on technical ability over all else is, I would submit, ample justification for my question.

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Nasri,

If you comment had been about whether Wenger has the British football genes to succeed, then my response would have been different. However, I read your comment to imply that because he "was not a fan of Arsenal" and/or had not played for Arsenal (like Dalglish is and has for Liverpool), Wenger will never truly succeed.

As for the issue of British style vs Rest of the World style football, I agree that there is a difference, and personally I prefer the latter.