I take it for granted on so far as I take it for granted it isn't happening despite the team eventually finishing 4th being by far, the weakest team to have done so in over ten years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
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I take it for granted on so far as I take it for granted it isn't happening despite the team eventually finishing 4th being by far, the weakest team to have done so in over ten years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
He's not playing the victim, never has. In your opionion and mine he has failed as a manger in the last 4 years but to his employers he has not hence why he is still in the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joker
Rubbish, he clearly loves the fans, just stubborn in his ways. I suppose he feels if people want to abuse me why should i give a shite about them. Say alot of things about aw but not caring about the fans is one thing you can never say.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
As for who cares about the CL alot of fans do, no one wants to see us in the Europa league if their honest, nothing to say we will win it, id rather be in the CL with the best even if we get knocked out by the top teams.
Rubbish he is not even of retirment age silly thing to say, he could still be a top manager in a number or european clubs. His problem is he needs a new challenge and a bit of freshness in his life for the good of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fats
To say he has not got the intelligence is nonsense, the man is clever, problem is too clever for his own good sometimes you feel. His cleverness use to be funny, we'd all get behind it, now its frustating some deem it piss taking.
Will he go end of the season, who knows. IMO i think he may go if he finishes the season without 4th and a trophy tbh.
Charlie before your childish attemp to dissmiss peoples opinions, why dont you look at the reasons for these rather than being a WUM. Your not even that good at it and personally I wouldnt debate with you because of the immature nature of them.
A couple of points though
1.Explain why Wenger is not playing the victim
2. Can you give me an example as to when Wenger has shown the fans any love and/or contempt?
3. Explain the concept of retirement and any age deemed?
4. Explain, or give an example of Wengers intelligence, and one of downright stupidity(the later will be easier to find)
Cheers
Fans are generally a bunch of dickheads. Sport/competition is not played for fans. Fans allow the rewards of sport/competition to be higher (in some sports) but no athlete plays for the fans, they play for the competitive drive within them. Personally, fans should either support or fuck off. They are not part of the equation and never should be.
Did Wenger say anything wrong in this interview? Noticed the title said 'nonsense' but that's not a quote from him. Just said the team needs to rise above it.
So because i never agreed with you and said nothing bad about Wenger, i'm a wum, I have never ever come on here with the intention to wind up anybody, if i offended you then i aoplogise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fats
Sorry but that's totally wrong, without the fans there is no club, they pay for the tickets, buy the merchandise and the TV money comes from them....they are VERY important...to dismiss them is foolish and dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Persie
As for athletes playing for themselves and fans having no importance, explain why hoem games are easier if that's the case....if fans didn't matter away games would be just as easy to win. I agree players do play for themslves more these days, but fans have an impact, a bad reaction or positive open has an effect.......besides out players lack a competitive drive anyway on the whole.
ExactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Jam Persie
It's not totally wrong. The essence of sport is what goes on by those participating, not by those watching. Fans are peripheral. Without fans, there is football, without football there is just a bunch of people standing around for no apparent reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
Do fans impact the play? Yes. Does having more fans paying more money mean more of a chance of making profits? Yes. But you don't organise your team and play in order to please fans. That's x-factor and big brother and all that shite. We don't vote to see who gets subbed every week (thank god). I don't want Wenger to alter the way he does business or picks his team to please fans. You don't run a club by pandering to public opinion. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he chooses to do or not do, but that's his job. He is central, I am peripheral. I can complain, wage a hate campaign online, boo at the games, but that should be water off a duck's back to what goes on at the centre. They should strive to win/suceed with whatever constraints they may have to deal with, whether financial, philosophical, imposed from without or self-imposed.
And players don't play for the fans. That's nonsense and has always been nonsense. Players play because they have it in them to compete and to strive for success. You think people who train their whole lives to be in the olympics in a completely irrelevant sport without any public interest do it for the fans? You compete because you can and because it's personally rewarding, if not enriching.
Football shouldn't be seen as simply a business, with the fans as consumers who don't feel any particular affiliation to the business other than to enjoy the product on display. Football clubs are embedded in communities, and many fans have supported their clubs for decades. Moreover, if you're disappointed with your football club, you don't just switch to another club, in the same way that you'd switch to an Apple iPhone if you're unhappy with your Blackberry. The club hierarchy should realise that show us some more respect.
Too right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Persie
Jam Persie has a rather depressing but also valid point.
Nobody cares who you agree with. However to call their opinion "rubbish" is disrespectful and uncalled for. If your opinion is different thats cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
Like i said if i offended you i apologiseQuote:
Originally Posted by Fats
Its the kernel of a valid point taken to its logical extreme. It's the counter-point to the 'fan entitlement' line of argumentation. There is a happy medium. But I disagree vehemently with the notion of 'I spent a tenner on a arsenal hat therefore I demand respect and that my views are fully taken on board in terms of how the team plays, who plays, who gets sold and who gets brought in. Who do those monkeys running the club think they are?' I don't really see the sports team/fan relationship as a wholly sterile one either and there is often a symbiotic interaction and fans can play an important role. But one has to maintain a reasonable level of perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
The bottom line is that I think Wenger is right to focus on his team and do everything he feels is right to succeed, rather than worrying too much about fans' opinions or opprobrium. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked to throttle him when he subbed Chamberlain off against Man Utd but there you go. And the premise of this thread, i..e how dare Wenger express the notion that his job is to get the best out of his team and not necessarily worry about fan opinion, is largely moot.
Whilst I agree with what you say, if the fans don't turn up, or watch the team on telly etc...there is no club, Arsenal would not exist without the fans and that's a fact.
I guarantee that if people stopped turning up you'd see changes, they're only able to be so dismissive because people keep turning up regardless. Wenger has his ideas of what is right etc, but it's been proven wrong for 6 years with failure after failure, the results don't lie and just because he's too stubborn to admit it it doesn't mean it isn't true.
A manager should be adaptable and react to failure and changes in the game, he fails to and thus whatever he may or may not think he's wrong. If someone who ignores everything around him thinks he's right, that does not make him so.
Six years of failure, blah blah blah.
It has not been six years of failure.
It's no end product, that's for sure.
Depends what you define as Failure, Most wil say its only be 2-3 seasons of failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
Doesn't matter what it is, 3, 4, 5 years.
We're all disappointed with the club and that's what needs to turn around.
When did he start this Youth Project crap? cos thats been a failure
I see it as 6 years of failure, we've not picked up any trophies in that time....that's failure for this club.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Pretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ach
But GB is not classing not winning a trophy as Failure, As the target was top 4 for at leat 4 years andwe achived that, it was sucess.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
It is not all about winning trophies - but that is the ambition. During the earlier part of this 6 years of 'failure', I've seen us play some great football, which if built on, should have been resulting in a successful side today.
Reaching the CL was an awesome achievement so that wasn't a failure. We bombed in the league of course to focus on that, but at least we had players back then who were capable of defying the odds like that in Europe, to potentially put a silver lining on a dismal season.
Does anyone expect a silver lining from the FA Cup or CL this year? No because we'll probably go out in the first difficult tie we face.
Did you ever think to ask yourself why people keep turning up regardless? Is it because they feel the team requires their presence or is it because they desperately desire to continually be plugged in to a hyperreality centred around a sports club in order to find some manner of fulfillment/entertainment? Why do Stoke and other pub teams have fans? They obviously lack ambition and have been mired in a near century of dismal failure. Why do those silly feckers who support them keep showing up? Is it for the quality of their football or is it to be a part of something, however shitty and pathetic, which offers an interlude from normal reality. You should consider yourself lucky to at least get to watch half-decent football on occassion in these interludes from your own personal reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Persie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Persie
I think the problem is one of complacency. If you're a club with few resources and you're not very good, at least if you put the effort in to be all that you can be, then the fans will appreciate that.
If you're a club with good resources and you don't use them effectively to be all that you can be, then fans will be frustrated. We're a big club in a good position, but have allowed ourselves to be complacent, ever since those champions league places started increasing. Suddenly the bare minimum became all that was necessary, as long as the money kept rolling in. The finances have been managed in a way that sidelines success on the pitch, or at least puts It on the back burner. With a balanced point of view, of course the club needs and does well to be well run, self-sustaining and financially responsible. But we've gone too far in this direction without putting enough back onto the pitch; the same fans that are turning up each week with their hard earned dosh are being simply treated as consumers with no say in how they want the club to move forward. Being in a good position and being complacent is worse than being in a bad position and giving it your all.
Someone recently on this board made the comparison of AW to brain surgeon who was an alcoholic, and that applies to the club in general as well. In a great position, with superb potential to do great things, but instead of making the most of that position, sabotages itself with a weakness that destabilises itself from reaching its full potential.
This club with judicious, shrewd investment could be challenging for the league, aiming higher but it does not strive to at the moment. The fans want of course want to be entertained and to escape reality, but they do turn up to support a football team and a football manager, not to support a bank and a bank manager. If you're not giving back to the fans in striving to be all that you can be football wise, then understandably a good proportion of those fans will get jaded, and roll their eyes at the marketed “brand” of beautiful football and Champions League football (without the necessary investment to aim to win it), as having seen it all before but with no end product, in trying to be the best that you can be. If it was clear that serious effort was being made then I'm sure less people would complain, but rather, support those efforts.
I don't disagree with any of that. We're underperforming as a club and that's disappointing. The operating model is sound but it can be and should be tweaked a little to add more to the squad sooner. But it could just be a matter of timing. This season was going to be a wreck from the word go, and despite some highlights, hasn't been stellar. Maybe the progress made this year in certain areas can be built upon in the summer to put us in a better position to succeed next year. One can only hope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tipsychubbs
Utter rubbish, akin to saying why would a rational person stick with a relationship when the other person fails to meet standards. I mean with this sort of reasoning we all should ditch our girlfriends who have now become fat and friends who've always been alcoholics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jam Persie
I hate it when the totality o"f fandom are demeaned as mere zombies and that's the simplistic picture your unnecessarily condescending verbose post paints.
no it doesn'tQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Oh then Tom please tell me what Dick actually meant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz
What I meant was that fans support clubs, good and bad, because it fills a need they have to participate in something outside their normal reality. That's why they tend to stick around, even when things aren't necessarily so great, aka fat girlfriend and alcoholic friend in your analogy.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
And my name's not Richard btw.
Wenger doesnt need to rise above fan nonsense. He needs to rise above his own nonsense first.
Do you think that's a clever post?
It isn't.
I think its very clever..Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
You live in America. The bar is very low.
Its still higher than the UK..Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
QED.
The correct answer was "So is your face"
Thanks for playing though.