3rd/4th vs A domestic cup double

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItsMe

Prefer the domestic cup double anyday, more fun and exciting plus it actually means success......3rd/4th means sh*t to be honest and we're not winning the CL anytime soon.

This good form is great but it may well lead to Wenger believing little needs changing and we'll find ourselves in the same position next season making up the numbers in the CL.

Sorry but 3rd/4th place is a joke and shouldn't be rewarded with a place in the CL anyway, it makes a mockery of the competition IMO.

I'd prefer to have a chance of winning a trophy than being in with no hope by February personally.

---

I agree that 3/4th isn't a massive achievement (even though it is a good achievement this year, considering). However, it is massively important.

Regardless of whether we ever win it or not. It's where the money is, and it's an attraction for potential signings, and an incentive for some of our players to stay. So much rides on it, financially and in terms of playing staff.

Maybe that shouldn't be the case. But it is.

This is a weird question for me. It's one that has no real answer. I would sooner be in Arsenal's state than Liverpools, is about as close as I can come to an answer. I don't give a shit if they win two trophies. I'm more interested in us finishing the season well and building on it.

I think that this is a question that cannot be easily answered. On the one hand, winning two domestic trophies would be great for the fans; I cannot wait to see the current crop of talented Arsenal players finally win some silverware. On the other hand, I do not think that a League Cup and FA Cup double would be enough to convince world-class players to join the club, and it would definitely not help the club financially if we finished outside the top 4. We need to be in the Champions League.

I would take the cups please. I think its important for this team, in particular the younger members, to know what it feels like to actually win something and regardless of what Arsene says, finishing in the top 4 is not a trophy its just a cash cow.

This is why i am still a bit disgusted with the way we treated the Carling cup final against Birmingham.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

I agree that 3/4th isn't a massive achievement (even though it is a good achievement this year, considering). However, it is massively important.

Regardless of whether we ever win it or not. It's where the money is, and it's an attraction for potential signings, and an incentive for some of our players to stay. So much rides on it, financially and in terms of playing staff.

Maybe that shouldn't be the case. But it is.

This is a weird question for me. It's one that has no real answer. I would sooner be in Arsenal's state than Liverpools, is about as close as I can come to an answer. I don't give a shit if they win two trophies. I'm more interested in us finishing the season well and building on it.

---

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm not convinced we're going to get those signings we need in the summer (Wenger's already said he's not looking for many players), this run of form may also convince that he really doesn't need that much.

Regarding building on the recent run, that would be great, this run does coincide with us basically being out of all competitions and in effect having relatively little pressure on us, most peope had written off first place, we know we can perform when there's no pressure but the problem has always been when we are in with a shout of winning something.

This run of form convinces me he doesn't need to do that much too. We're very close to being a side who can challenge. I think defensively we're getting there, midfield is pretty much there too. We need more firepower up front, someone to help RvP out. Apart from that we're not that far from a side who could seriosuly challenge IMO.

As for the pressure thing, this is more classic goalpost shifting. Before some recent games people were saying we'd crumble, that the pressure was on and we'd fail to take advantage of other teams poor results. Now we've won those games it's "there was relatively little pressure". There's always pressure. This team has showed recently - coming back in 4 games when we went behind - that they're less susceptible to falling apart under pressure than they have been previously. Whether that will translate into trophies in the next few years remains to be seen but right now I'm more hopeful than I've been for a while about Arsenal.

Pretty much.

The job that needs to be done, is a clear out of the dross, and finally see the back of Bender and Denilson etc. Then we have a bit more room to play with.

One quality player in each part of the field is needed I think. CB, CM and Striker.

Ideally I'd like us to sign a marquee type player, just fo rthe fans to get excited, and someone who can win something out of nothing.....but I doubt that will happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItsMe

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm not convinced we're going to get those signings we need in the summer (Wenger's already said he's not looking for many players), this run of form may also convince that he really doesn't need that much.

Regarding building on the recent run, that would be great, this run does coincide with us basically being out of all competitions and in effect having relatively little pressure on us, most peope had written off first place, we know we can perform when there's no pressure but the problem has always been when we are in with a shout of winning something.

---

Well he don't need many players in fairness we have a core and if he adds Quality to the squad maybe 3/5 players we should be fine next season and challenging, wheather we win a thing is another discussion.

I agree we should be winning trophies but a domestic double is not really success, if liverpool only win the CC id not class that as sucess because they really should be winning so much more.

Its easy to win in a cup final but its much harder to win the league and that is where success should me measured.

Id still love us to finish 4th in honesty bar Barca its hard to see any team winning the CL anyways not just us, so its nice to just play in it.

It would be stupid for us to0 give up on it because we don't have a chance to win it. its like saying Crawley should not bother with the fa and cc cups as they have no chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

This run of form convinces me he doesn't need to do that much too. We're very close to being a side who can challenge. I think defensively we're getting there, midfield is pretty much there too. We need more firepower up front, someone to help RvP out. Apart from that we're not that far from a side who could seriosuly challenge IMO.

As for the pressure thing, this is more classic goalpost shifting. Before some recent games people were saying we'd crumble, that the pressure was on and we'd fail to take advantage of other teams poor results. Now we've won those games it's "there was relatively little pressure". There's always pressure. This team has showed recently - coming back in 4 games when we went behind - that they're less susceptible to falling apart under pressure than they have been previously. Whether that will translate into trophies in the next few years remains to be seen but right now I'm more hopeful than I've been for a while about Arsenal.

---

What about the rest of the season and all the horrendous results, are those to jus tbe ignored and forgotten then?

Things don't just change overnight, we've proven time after time that when we're in the hunt we haven't got the bottle. The pressure thing is very relevant, when you've got not trophies on the line the pressure is much less that's a fact, in many ways the pressure was off us with regards getting 4th, the teams above us were seen as better and were seemingly out of sight.

I'm just not convinced that a few good wins at the end of the season proves anything, our achilles heel has always been our ability to cope with the pressure of winning a trophy, nothing we've done this season points to anything different.

The defence is still suspect IMO, they might not be conceding that many however there's times we've still be horribly exposed. Up front we know we're short, we also definitely lack a star player or two.

The worrying thing is Wenger also has a short memory and I can see him doing very little in the summer leading to the same problems resurfacing next season, it's like we never learn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItsMe

What about the rest of the season and all the horrendous results, are those to jus tbe ignored and forgotten then?

---

Not forgotten, no. But we can't do anything about what's gone. I read a stat the other day (I know how you love stats) which said that since October 3rd we've picked up the same number of points as ManYoo. (That was before their game last night, they've picked up 3 more points now. We have picked up the same number of points as Man City over that period though). The point is since our car crash of a start we've actually done pretty well in the league. That isn't a 'few good wins at the end of a season', it's over more than 20 games and 6 months. I think that's a significant enough period to show we're moving in the right direction.

You move the goalposts about 'pressure'. People on here were saying we would crumble in recent games, fail to take advantage of Spurs' poor run of results. Had we dropped points people would have been posting saying we didn't cope with the pressure. But we haven't, we've kept winning. So now the 'pressure was off'. Nonsense. Top 4 should not be the limit of our ambitions but it's clearly the level we expect to be at and there is pressure to deliver it, that pressure increases as the games run out and when other clubs above us drop points there's pressure on us to take advantage. So far we have. Chelsea and Spurs drew on Saturday before our game. Was there not pressure on us to win?

Things don't change overnight but we're not talking overnight, a season is over 9 months and there has been a clear change in the way the team have played over that period. Not just in results, they seem to be playing more as a team and working harder. Was talking to a friend who was there on Saturday and he mentioned Gervinho tracking back 60 yards to make a tackle. In the Newcastle game Vermaelan ran 70 yards in the 95th minute to score the late winner. Things like that show something about this team right now which has been lacking in past seasons.

I can only judge our defence by what I've seen of late and they do look more solid. There are still worrying moments - IMO we show-boated too much in the 2nd half on Saturday and there were some self destructive moments where we could have let Villa back in. Overall though from what I've seen recently I trust this lot far more with a slender lead than I have some Arsenal sides over the last few years. We deal with set pieces better overall and we have a proper 'keeper who commands the defence well.

Again, I don't think Wenger needs to do much in the summer. We need more depth, particularly up front. We need to get rid of some dead wood. We're not far away from being a side who can seriously challenge though.

I remember you posting near the start of the season to say there's no comparison between our squad and Spurs'. You seemed to think they were better than us in every department. Well here we are, above them again. Maybe we won't sustain it but we've done very well to make up the ground and it shows there's not as much between the squads as you thought. I don't think Wenger needs to do that much in the summer but he DOES need to do something and he needs to do it early, not be scrambling around on deadline day again. The Podolski rumours encourage me that we will do it right this summer but we'll see.

:lol:

1) Arsenal don't care about winning trophies, they only care about 4th place and getting money from CL football.
2) When 13 points behind the spuds and 7th position with a tough run of games (Sunderland A, Tottenham H, Liverpool A, Newcastle H, Everton A, Villa H), the pressure was off.

It doesn't add up.

I reckon the mentality, effort-levels etc. is fine. But lacking the genuine quality to truly compete on all fronts. You might say we've overachieved in the league with the resources we have. It has taken shit like junkie Rosicky suddenly turning in some great form and establishing himself as a regular starter and Theo learning how to play football. Slightly optimistic about next year because I like the look of some of our youngsters (non peeeeeeeeedo).

I think the quality is there to compete for a cup as well as CL football, the problem is that we can't seem to cope when the fixtures pile up and we get a "season defining" week. When have we ever come out of one those in good shape? The Sunderland defeat following Milan was the most predictable result going.

It's not right to say the pressure was off. 0-2 down to Spurs the pressure was most certainly ON.

We've done remarkably well to put this run together, but I guess the frustration stems from what was mentioned earlier in the thread about Cups being for the fans, for me there isn't another buzz like it and it's disappointing that despite consistently being able to achieve our goal of top 4, we haven't managed to deliver a cup or 2 along with it.

It's not a question of one or the other, we absolutley should be able to do both. Just as Liverpool should be able to compete for the top 4 as well as the cups. It's not like City and United have monopolised these competitions as well, plenty of teams on our level and sometimes below us reach the latter stages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

Ideally I'd like us to sign a marquee type player, just fo rthe fans to get excited, and someone who can win something out of nothing.....but I doubt that will happen.

---

If Wenger can get Podolski to not be mardy he is that player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syn

:lol:

1) Arsenal don't care about winning trophies, they only care about 4th place and getting money from CL football.
2) When 13 points behind the spuds and 7th position with a tough run of games (Sunderland A, Tottenham H, Liverpool A, Newcastle H, Everton A, Villa H), the pressure was off.

It doesn't add up.

I reckon the mentality, effort-levels etc. is fine. But lacking the genuine quality to truly compete on all fronts. You might say we've overachieved in the league with the resources we have. It has taken shit like junkie Rosicky suddenly turning in some great form and establishing himself as a regular starter and Theo learning how to play football. Slightly optimistic about next year because I like the look of some of our youngsters (non peeeeeeeeedo).

---

I do wonder how far behind we would have been had we not lost all 4 full backs for that period when it all went wrong. I think we would had been good for another 10 points which would have put us a short step behind the mancs. Just goes to show that major injuries plus the bad luck of them all coming at once left us screwed, the team that played Liverpool and Manyoo early doors were silly and the results at Swansea and Blackburn of course. Sine then we have been more where i expect.

I do also wonder if we might pick up a couple of jobbers to reinforce the overall unit. People from the prem who wouldn't cost much but could do a job from the bench, like Benayoun has this season.

In fact i wouldn't be that surprised if Wenger took the option to keep Benayoun. Have also just seen that Clint Dempsey is coming into the last year of his contract so could be gotten for cheap, he would be an excellent rotation option.

I think there is room for cautious optimism. And I think that sums it up.

I still fear that we're a game away from cocking it up again, but I have every reason to believe that this squad has the basis to become a good side with a few additions in the right areas, and IF we can get our business done early.

The signs and sounds coming out of the club are very encouraging. I thik there has been a massive effort by all involved to get the fans back on side. Not just on the football pitch, but also through the media.

Just look at that Jenko Haircut article yesterday. I may be cynical, and it was a bloody good laugh, but these things are designed to bring the club back together again. It had become very fragmented, fans against manager / board etc. But one good thing to come out of the last two months, is that we're united again.

I think the fans are still very cautious, and it still needs a LOT of work over the summer. And if it becomes apparent that we're unwilling to do the necessary during season close, I think that will spell curtains.

Indeed will be interesting to see how we react if/when we do lose a game, especially if its to a late goal or a dodgy penalty

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flavs

Indeed will be interesting to see how we react if/when we do lose a game, especially if its to a late goal or a dodgy penalty

---

....and who the referees are for our games.

That said, we're over the Dean / Dowd hoodoo for now. Though I'm sure if we get them again, they'll do their best to cock us over.

I don't think its a deliberate hatred of us, i just think they are shit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flavs

I don't think its a deliberate hatred of us, i just think they are shit.

---

We have Mike Dean on Saturday :crying:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

We have Mike Dean on Saturday :crying:

---

Against B&Q? Oh shit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flavs

Against B&Q? Oh shit

---

http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/wp-.../Mike_Dean.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flavs

I don't think its a deliberate hatred of us, i just think they are shit.

---

There are certainties that you can do nothing about. e.g. the refs will always look to even things up. If they book 4 Stoke players, they'll give Koscielny a bullshit yellow for the sake of it.

But we can influence it. Our players don't even bother appealing for 50/50 pen shouts any more...they just assume they're not getting it. If we were a bunch of whiny ****s like Barca, we would get so many more decisions. Not through diving. But through moaning at the ref. Cesc was fantastic at that - he knew how to play the game. He would be at the ref's ear all game.

The crowd as well play a massive part. It's not possible to ignore 50,000 people thinking you've fucked them over. Against Newcastle, the fans got us that 5 mins added on. It may have been 3 or 4 without it, but it was 5 because they were booing Krul for time-wasting from the first minute. Everyone was made aware that Krul was taking his time and so an extra min or so gets added on. Stuff like that helps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItsMe

What about the rest of the season and all the horrendous results, are those to jus tbe ignored and forgotten then?

Things don't just change overnight, we've proven time after time that when we're in the hunt we haven't got the bottle. The pressure thing is very relevant, when you've got not trophies on the line the pressure is much less that's a fact, in many ways the pressure was off us with regards getting 4th, the teams above us were seen as better and were seemingly out of sight.

I'm just not convinced that a few good wins at the end of the season proves anything, our achilles heel has always been our ability to cope with the pressure of winning a trophy, nothing we've done this season points to anything different.

The defence is still suspect IMO, they might not be conceding that many however there's times we've still be horribly exposed. Up front we know we're short, we also definitely lack a star player or two.

The worrying thing is Wenger also has a short memory and I can see him doing very little in the summer leading to the same problems resurfacing next season, it's like we never learn.

---

Rubbish, total rubbish, were under more pressure then Spuds and Chavs to finsih 4th and you know it what the lads have done under this pressure has been good. We still may not even make the top 4 so there is lots pf pressure there.

Only reason City are under pressure is because they spent silly money and have to win the league, Utd are under pressure because they don't want to loose their title to their rivals.

Spurs were never under pressure this season if anyhting they had the least pressure out the top 5 tbh.

what if our boys said feck it and just not bothered after the sunderland fa cup game. You have called them bottlers etc.

We still not assured of top 4 so there pressure is still there, its about if we loose a game in this run how we bounce back from that then we will see what the lads are made off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I think the quality is there to compete for a cup as well as CL football, the problem is that we can't seem to cope when the fixtures pile up and we get a "season defining" week. When have we ever come out of one those in good shape? The Sunderland defeat following Milan was the most predictable result going.

It's not right to say the pressure was off. 0-2 down to Spurs the pressure was most certainly ON.

We've done remarkably well to put this run together, but I guess the frustration stems from what was mentioned earlier in the thread about Cups being for the fans, for me there isn't another buzz like it and it's disappointing that despite consistently being able to achieve our goal of top 4, we haven't managed to deliver a cup or 2 along with it.

It's not a question of one or the other, we absolutley should be able to do both. Just as Liverpool should be able to compete for the top 4 as well as the cups. It's not like City and United have monopolised these competitions as well, plenty of teams on our level and sometimes below us reach the latter stages.

---

Spot fecking on MOe. We have a sqaud that was good enough to win something this season, then frustation is because we failed to.

Lets be real the only 2 comps we had a chance in this season was the domestic cups, no way we had to splash out to win one of those.

If all we won was the CC yes its better then nothing but it does not indicate a succesful season, same as pool finshing 8th no way can you say they had a successful season because they won the CC.

Id say our season has not be a failuire but a dissapointment. Had we had this momentume earlier in the season we'd be up there challgenging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...

Furthering to Syn's post - what I don't like is this idea that being content with finishing third or fourth isn't what 'football is about' but winning trophies is. Sure for players or managers as it would be as it is a personal accolade but really, doesn't only being happy from winning trophies as a supporter just remove the enjoyment of supporting your club and watching the sport as much as settling for a supposed 'mediocre position'? Isn't it just as cynical in the end?

If trophies are all that matter then there are a minimum of 80 depressed sets of football supporters every season in this country and personally, I can't say I remember supporting Arsenal because I wanted trophies.

---

Top post.

Being a fan is about the ride the team takes you on. This season has been a weird one but a quite enjoyable one, hopefully next season will be even better.

No fan should expect their team to win a trophy no team has that devine right. only reason A trophy is a big deal because we have not won one in a long time, other wise not many could care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

Rubbish, total rubbish, were under more pressure then Spuds and Chavs to finsih 4th and you know it what the lads have done under this pressure has been good. We still may not even make the top 4 so there is lots pf pressure there.

---

A lot of people on here take a position and then fit the facts around that position (as opposed to a more sensible approach of letting facts shape and change that position over time). Arsenal can't deal with pressure is a common one (not without justification) ergo when we lose a game it is said to be a high pressure one and upheld as proof. We go on a winning run so rather than reconsider that position they take the other option and declare those games not high pressure.

:shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

A lot of people on here take a position and then fit the facts around that position (as opposed to a more sensible approach of letting facts shape and change that position over time). Arsenal can't deal with pressure is a common one (not without justification) ergo when we lose a game it is said to be a high pressure one and upheld as proof. We go on a winning run so rather than reconsider that position they take the other option and declare those games not high pressure.

:shrug:

---

Yep, Even if we won something this season those same people would of come on with how lucky we were, its was a pub team we beat etc.

Everyone knows out of the big 5 we had been written off and we even finish 7/8th they said. so if we do finish 3rd you have to say the lads showed some bottle from where they were in the 1st few games of the season.

Its about building on that for next season is all that matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syn

There are certainties that you can do nothing about. e.g. the refs will always look to even things up. If they book 4 Stoke players, they'll give Koscielny a bullshit yellow for the sake of it.

But we can influence it. Our players don't even bother appealing for 50/50 pen shouts any more...they just assume they're not getting it. If we were a bunch of whiny ****s like Barca, we would get so many more decisions. Not through diving. But through moaning at the ref. Cesc was fantastic at that - he knew how to play the game. He would be at the ref's ear all game.

The crowd as well play a massive part. It's not possible to ignore 50,000 people thinking you've fucked them over. Against Newcastle, the fans got us that 5 mins added on. It may have been 3 or 4 without it, but it was 5 because they were booing Krul for time-wasting from the first minute. Everyone was made aware that Krul was taking his time and so an extra min or so gets added on. Stuff like that helps.

---

Good point, but the exception to the rule was the home game against Milan. You'd have thought the crowd getting on the ref's back would've worked in our favout, but it didn't. We got a couple of dodgy looking yellows in the first-half and, subsequently, the rest of the game was on a knife-edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ernesto

Good point, but the exception to the rule was the home game against Milan. You'd have thought the crowd getting on the ref's back would've worked in our favout, but it didn't. We got a couple of dodgy looking yellows in the first-half and, subsequently, the rest of the game was on a knife-edge.

---

He really didn't want to give the pen either did he? :lol:

Then he got all anal about where Van Persie was taking the pen from.

Yeah, he was a dick. We get a lot of them in Europe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syn

Yeah, he was a dick. We get a lot of them in Europe.

---

I always felt the refereeing in the CL is noticeably better than in the PL but not this year.

It's no exaggeration to say that some refs are worse than Hitler.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Grimandi's Perm

It's no exaggeration to say that some refs are worse than Hitler.

---

Benayoun had better watch out then.

I think today's result should help to add some perspective to our season, we're a long way from being where we need to be and as I said before the mini run changed little for me.

Next season will be much of the same unless some significant changes are made IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ItsMe

I think today's result should help to add some perspective to our season, we're a long way from being where we need to be and as I said before the mini run changed little for me.

Next season will be much of the same unless some significant changes are made IMO.

---

True, If the people that run the club don't see we need changes then they need help. Even if we won this game we still had to strenghen but its not a bad thing this loss if it opens their eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

True, If the people that run the club don't see we need changes then they need help. Even if we won this game we still had to strenghen but its not a bad thing this loss if it opens their eyes.

---

http://adnauseous.com/wp-content/upl...ering-eyes.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flavs

This is why i am still a bit disgusted with the way we treated the Carling cup final against Birmingham.

---

Of all the things AW or the club have pissed me off by doing, or all the frustrations of the last 6 years - that (and I'll include the 3 or 4 days leading up to it) is still right at the top of the list.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I think the quality is there to compete for a cup as well as CL football, the problem is that we can't seem to cope when the fixtures pile up and we get a "season defining" week. When have we ever come out of one those in good shape? The Sunderland defeat following Milan was the most predictable result going.

It's not right to say the pressure was off. 0-2 down to Spurs the pressure was most certainly ON.

We've done remarkably well to put this run together, but I guess the frustration stems from what was mentioned earlier in the thread about Cups being for the fans, for me there isn't another buzz like it and it's disappointing that despite consistently being able to achieve our goal of top 4, we haven't managed to deliver a cup or 2 along with it.

It's not a question of one or the other, we absolutley should be able to do both. Just as Liverpool should be able to compete for the top 4 as well as the cups. It's not like City and United have monopolised these competitions as well, plenty of teams on our level and sometimes below us reach the latter stages.

---

Problem is we've less points at 30 or 31 games than we had last season, we went no futher in the C.L than last season & were further away from going through and against a considerably worse side, we went out of the FA Cup a round earlier & the league cup 2 rounds earlier. So by no stretch of anyone's imagination could that be seen as progress, we haven't bettered ourself in one competition.

Yet it seems to a lot of people to have been an improvement - probably a combination of a place higher in the league for now, the second half of the season being better than the first and playing well when the first team have been fit - but there's still actually little if any improvement.