Wenger is the scapegoat for the Arsenal board.

:lol: financially restricted?

we have a £143m wage bill. thats the 4th highest in the league. where's the financial restriction in that then?

oh yeah there isn't one.

only suits the argument when people want it to.

4th highest in the league and we finish 3rd. Does that suit your argument?

A distant 3rd that is and have won fuck all in years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshGooner

A distant 3rd that is and have won fuck all in years.

---

You seem to be forgetting about all those 4th place trophies, oh and don't forget it's been 15 straight seasons or something in the CL, no other club has done that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

You seem to be forgetting about all those 4th place trophies, oh and don't forget it's been 15 straight seasons or something in the CL, no other club has done that.

---

Top, top, top achievement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshGooner

A distant 3rd that is and have won fuck all in years.

---

Let's stay on topic. We're talking in relation to wages spend. We're 4th highest wage spenders and we finished 3rd. In talk of inefficiency lets not ignore that especially when trying to claim others are selective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joker

Why hasn't he left if the board are being a hindrance? It may well be because his £7M/year salary is a strong incentive, but that just makes him a sell out. It would have been far more honourable to say "I can't work under these conditions" and leave the club, citing irreconcilable differences with the board in terms of the direction of the club.

---

I appreciate the flattery but can you stop stealing my lines? Ta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshGooner

:haha: you know you really should try having a discussion without having to throw personal insults.

I could easily call you any deragatory term for being a perennial Wenger apologist, but I don't do that, do I?

---

Go ahead. Honestly, I wouldn't care if it was sandwiched between a decent point like mine.

Also the world is ending any minute now so I'm feeling a bit edgy.

And to stay on topic, the 3 teams that are slightly ahead of us on wage bill all have something tangible to show for it. What do we have except making up numbers in the CL for a considerable amount of years now.

Fuck, we're currently at round of 16 and we are heavy, heavy underdogs, expected to crash out to a real big club.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshGooner

And to stay on topic, the 3 teams that are slightly ahead of us on wage bill all have something tangible to show for it. What do we have except making up numbers in the CL for a considerable amount of years now.

---

Well it's all well and good moaning about that but it doesn't make a sound point at all. I'm only arguing against the silly comment that we are not performing according to our financial spend. We clearly are. I'm not interested in whether there's another £60m stashed away that we can spend to get us among the top 3 wage spenders and win something - because, unlike a lot that chuck their 2 pence worth - I try to think a bit. I don't know how much the club have stashed away and don't pretend to. Obviously I would love the club to spend more and for us to (properly) progress. There is still room to progress even with our current spend - e.g. by not having rubbish pre-planned substitutions and getting our organisation and tactics right. No doubt a more tactically astute manager would have us higher in the league than we are currently, but does he get the Cazorla's in for £14m odd as well? I don't know...but it's time to try something new.

Btw for those interested, Deloitte are the only official source for all premier league team wages. Each year they publish the wages for premier league clubs (with a year lag, of course). So far the latest figures we have published in 2012 are:

Quote:

---

Chelsea - £191m (up from £174m in 2009-10)
Manchester City - £174m (£133m)
Manchester United - £153m (£132m)
Liverpool - £135m (£121m)
Arsenal - £124m (£111m)

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18248540)

---

And then accounting for a very low net transfer spend (even profits, like last year) relative to other clubs, there is no doubt we are doing at least doing what supposed to do given what we spend. The issues are that we can probably do even better with better team management, and whether we do actually do need our net spend to be so little. Going the extra mile at times - a few million more for Alonso etc. can't hurt too much, can it?

All I'm saying Syn, is that we should be getting more bang for a buck based on what we pay our players. Last year we finished 3rd, but was out of all comps by February and showed no sign ever challenging the top 2. Think we finished something like some 20 points off.

This season, it's the same crap. We're already 15 points adrift of the league leaders and no one is taking us seriously in the ECL.

We deserve better from players who are so handsomely rewarded for wearing the shirt for a few hours each season.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshGooner

All I'm saying Syn, is that we should be getting more bang for a buck based on what we pay our players. Last year we finished 3rd, but was out of all comps by February and showed no sign ever challenging the top 2. Think we finished something like some 20 points off.

This season, it's the same crap. We're already 15 points adrift of the league leaders and no one is taking us seriously in the ECL.

We deserve better from players who are so handsomely rewarded for wearing the shirt for a few hours each season.

---

I know that's what you're saying. And I'm saying if you take the sensible view and look around, you can't claim we're perform badly according to our spend relative to other teams. To start challenging for the title, we need to spend more. e.g. Lets lose £24m and keep Van Persie for the season. IMO, that would've given us a chance for the title this year. 80+ points is on the cards with Wilshere and Cazorla feeding him and Walcott and Podolski supporting. Without Van Persie, we have no chance. A more tactically astute manager wouldn't have us sweating for 4th (like Arsene is currently) but at the same time nobody could get us 80+ points. If you want that, you keep your Van Persie's or sign some £20m+ players.

Does anyone know how much prize money is obtained by winning the league?

Perhaps that's the only thing the board consider? If say we get more for selling RvP than finishing first with RvP, then the club sell the player.

I don't know if that is the case, but if it is, Wenger is complicit in this and if he had any integrity from a purely footballing perspective, and his hands are constantly forced by the board, then he should walk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlindFaith_8

All this sack Wenger or resign Wenger is not going to solve anything, they would just bring in another yes man stooge. The deep rooted problem is one parasite namely Stan Fucking Kroenke, he is the one person who has single handedly destroyed our club not Wenger. Wenger is merely the scapegoat and I actually feel sorry for Arsene because despite him knowing the truth, he has at all times acted with dignity and respect and has never shyed away from the media spotlight. Kroneke is building a vast fortune from our club, he is accountable for the misery we have endured for several seasons and more. He is an investor who is maximising his wealth from the club to increase his net worth. This **** doesnt give a single fuck about Arsenal, he hardly comes to the games and has always kept himself out of the limelight, letting others address the issues. Arsenal is just an unlimited money prinitng machine for this greedy ****. We have no other choice but to boycott the next home match with all 60K fans outside marching in protest chanting to the theme "FUCK OFF KRONEKE" "FUCK OFF KRONEKE" "FUCK OFF KRONEKE" "FUCK OFF KRONEKE" AND "SACK THE BOARD".

---

:haha:

Got to be the funniest post on here for a while. Kroenke has been one of the main players at Arsenal since 2010.. we have been shit since we moved to Emirates. And kroenke is not the reason why we cannot beat a League 2 side. Forget about not beating them.. we cant even threaten their goal till the 80th freaking minute. Fine, we are no where close to City, Utd and Chelsea in terms of finance but surely we should be beating Swansea at home . Forget beating them, not even threatening their goal. That, my dear sir, is all down to Wenger.

So I suggest going to that marching thingy you mentioned and screaming "FUCK OFF WENGER" :good:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synti Claus

4th highest in the league and we finish 3rd. Does that suit your argument?

---

er nah.

the way people go on if we were financially restricted you'd expect a wage bill similar to mid table teams.

then you could applaud wengers achievements for getting us into top 4 with complete financial 'restriction'.

we have the 4th highest wage bill in the league.

thats not financial restriction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshGooner

And to stay on topic, the 3 teams that are slightly ahead of us on wage bill all have something tangible to show for it. What do we have except making up numbers in the CL for a considerable amount of years now.

Fuck, we're currently at round of 16 and we are heavy, heavy underdogs, expected to crash out to a real big club.

---

4th highest in the league and we finish 3rd. Does that suit your intangible argument?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivier's xmas twist

Funny the Russian seems to think otherwise.

---

Come on dude. Wenger whose the manager of the club or the Russian whose not even on the Board and has a clear agenda? Whose opinion has more weight in this argument?

This is Wenger confirming that he has the Board's ear and that they will listen if he puts more pressure on them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Come on dude. Wenger whose the manager of the club or the Russian whose not even on the Board and has a clear agenda? Whose opinion has more weight in this argument?

This is Wenger confirming that he has the Board's ear and that they will listen if he puts more pressure on them.

---

Im not saying your wrong, i was just making a point to what the russian said.

:lol: russians

awful slovakians.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olivier's xmas twist

Im not saying your wrong, i was just making a point to what the russian said.

---

But why make the point if Wenger's word trumps it? :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

:lol: russians

awful slovakians.

---

:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

er nah.

the way people go on if we were financially restricted you'd expect a wage bill similar to mid table teams.

then you could applaud wengers achievements for getting us into top 4 with complete financial 'restriction'.

we have the 4th highest wage bill in the league.

thats not financial restriction.

---

I think you both make fair points. With our wage bill, we shouldn't be struggling against certain teams and we should have at least won a few domestic cups.

But it's flawed to say we should be higher in the league with our wage bill. It's fair to say we should be spending more wisely, we can all agree on that. The recent signings of 5 unproven players while letting go of RVP, Song and potentially Walcott, really pisses me off. We should have a smaller squad with more proven players that know how to deliver if we're trying to progress. Guys like Wilshere, Gibbs and Ox won't be looking for the exit just yet because they know this is the best and one of the few clubs in England that will give young players a shot!

We're doing exactly what City and Chelsea do except with younger unproven players. We're paying over the odds and competitive wages for young players and inflating the rates but won't do it for proven players. Madness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

er nah.

the way people go on if we were financially restricted you'd expect a wage bill similar to mid table teams.

then you could applaud wengers achievements for getting us into top 4 with complete financial 'restriction'.

we have the 4th highest wage bill in the league.

thats not financial restriction.

---

You need to go back to school.

:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synti Claus

Well it's all well and good moaning about that but it doesn't make a sound point at all. I'm only arguing against the silly comment that we are not performing according to our financial spend. We clearly are. I'm not interested in whether there's another £60m stashed away that we can spend to get us among the top 3 wage spenders and win something - because, unlike a lot that chuck their 2 pence worth - I try to think a bit. I don't know how much the club have stashed away and don't pretend to. Obviously I would love the club to spend more and for us to (properly) progress. There is still room to progress even with our current spend - e.g. by not having rubbish pre-planned substitutions and getting our organisation and tactics right. No doubt a more tactically astute manager would have us higher in the league than we are currently, but does he get the Cazorla's in for £14m odd as well? I don't know...but it's time to try something new.

Btw for those interested, Deloitte are the only official source for all premier league team wages. Each year they publish the wages for premier league clubs (with a year lag, of course). So far the latest figures we have published in 2012 are:



And then accounting for a very low net transfer spend (even profits, like last year) relative to other clubs, there is no doubt we are doing at least doing what supposed to do given what we spend. The issues are that we can probably do even better with better team management, and whether we do actually do need our net spend to be so little. Going the extra mile at times - a few million more for Alonso etc. can't hurt too much, can it?

---

:gp:

As always, the issue is not straightforward. Wenger hasn't underperformed in terms of overall spend, relative to the richer teams. But he has arguably underperformed given the player resources at his disposal. In other words, there is good reason to believe that a better tactician, a more reactive manager who sets up his teams according to the opposition, and who doesn't seem to manage solely according to the training ground and the lap top would have done better with the players AW has. Of course, its Wenger himself who is responsible for bringing the technical talent that we have to the club, so the argument can easily become a little circular.

The main focus for criticism, IMO, is that the manager has squandered his financial resources by indulging experimental players. Without doubt, we pay untested and mediocre players too much - and they are millstones around the club's neck. There is good reason to suppose that had the manager behaved more judiciously, and had a more flexible wage structure (this wage parity has done nothing to foster togetherness and loyaly), funds would have been released to allow the club to keep its best performing players.

Anyways, for me the buck stops with the manager. The board and owners are not without blame, but the criticisms above are down to Wenger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

:gp:

As always, the issue is not straightforward. Wenger hasn't underperformed in terms of overall spend, relative to the richer teams. But he has arguably underperformed given the player resources at his disposal. In other words, there is good reason to believe that a better tactician, a more reactive manager who sets up his teams according to the opposition, and who doesn't seem to manage solely according to the training ground and the lap top would have done better with the players AW has. Of course, its Wenger himself who is responsible for bringing the technical talent that we have to the club, so the argument can easily become a little circular.

The main focus for criticism, IMO, is that the manager has squandered his financial resources by indulging experimental players. Without doubt, we pay untested and mediocre players too much - and they are millstones around the club's neck. There is good reason to suppose that had the manager behaved more judiciously, and had a more flexible wage structure (this wage parity has done nothing to foster togetherness and loyaly), fans would have been released to allow the club to keep its best performing players.

Anyways, for me the buck stops with the manager. The board and owners are not without blame, but the criticisms above are down to Wenger.

---

:gp:

This argument has been running for years. It's just further confirmation of Wenger's authority. Too many times I've heard people try to absolve him from blame as if he has no say in the financial side either. I feel a more ambitious coach would push the Board to aim higher as a true sportsmen should.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synti Claus

And then accounting for a very low net transfer spend (even profits, like last year) relative to other clubs, there is no doubt we are doing at least doing what supposed to do given what we spend. The issues are that we can probably do even better with better team management, and whether we do actually do need our net spend to be so little. Going the extra mile at times - a few million more for Alonso etc. can't hurt too much, can it?

---

Just to add a little granularity to your last point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Guardian blog

Then consider Arsenal's position when it comes to the Premier League table showing net spending on transfers over the past five years. Manchester City are top, with £407.2m, followed by Chelsea on £231.7m. Stoke City, believe it or not, are next, on £75.2m, followed by Aston Villa, £69.8m; Manchester United, £62.1m; Liverpool, £49.1m; QPR, £46.2m; Sunderland £36.4m; West Ham, £26.4m; Southampton, £18.9m; Norwich, £16m; West Brom, £13.2m; Fulham, £13.1m, and Tottenham, £3.2m.

All the other clubs have all recorded a profit, starting with Swansea City, £1.9m; Wigan Athletic, £12.1m; Everton, £15.3m; Reading, £16.7m and Newcastle, £36.3m. Arsenal? You will find them bottom of the spenders' list, with a profit of £45m. Which either counts as good business, or lack of ambition, depending on which side of the fence you sit.

---

Clearly profit-mongering is the policy.
Wenger is gaming the system, targetting the most saleable assets, raising their value and then selling them on. All this while holding a level that just manages to exploit Champions League money without spending to attempt anything more ambitious.

In gaming terms, we're min-maxing.

And in reply to the OP, yes, of course Wenger is scapegoat for the board, but that's part of the job description, that's part of what they're paid for. Every manager in history has been scapegoat for the board in times of on-field problems.

The manager isn't just the guy who picks the teams, he's also figurehead, PR man and meat-shield.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synti Claus

You need to go back to school.

---

sure, i'll ask to join your tutor group.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...his-hands.html

:pray:

Please Oh Please... let him not be around for one more season. Its been 5 seasons too late now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...his-hands.html

:pray:

Please Oh Please... let him not be around for one more season. Its been 5 seasons too late now.

---

:blah: he says that everytime, unless we fail the 4PT can't see the board not extending.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...his-hands.html

:pray:

Please Oh Please... let him not be around for one more season. Its been 5 seasons too late now.

---

So much for Wenger having the say when he leaves :haha:

http://i.imgur.com/gpLlR.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

http://i.imgur.com/gpLlR.gif

---

:haha:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wiltord's Winter Wonderland

http://i.imgur.com/gpLlR.gif

---

:lol: