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Nicely put.
A lot of it, I'm sure, is the fact he's been trying too hard. When he came back from the season out, I remember Arsene saying they were having to calm him down, as he was diving into challenges all over the place on the training ground.
The lad is just desperate to play football. Sometimes that means he's overcooking it.
Jack is one of those two deeper midfielders all day long for me - he's undoubtedly a creative, attacking talent when he's on form, but I think he's best able to express that through quickly turning defence into attack, and suddenly accelerating our tempo, and not necessarily through reeling off through-ball after through-ball like an Özil or Fabregas. I'm sure he'll still chip in with a few assists too, but pushing him too far forward is a waste of his talents, IMO.
Not really worried about his current form - Ramsey has fought back from worse, and had shown us less consistency and promise before he got injured, so I see no reason why Jack can't follow his example. His attitude and desire have always been spot on, and that will help him more than anything else. In the meantime, how nice that we don't actually have to fret about it too much, for once! The other guys are doing the business, so we can afford to ease him back in at a sensible pace.
One thing Wilshere does have going for him though, is that for all his faults - Wenger is a master molder of a central midfielder.
Fabregas, Song, Flamini, Arteta etc all went through a quantum leap at some stage of their development where they just became "the shit". Ramsey is going through it now, and I have no doubt Wilshere will go through it too when he re-finds himself.
As to some of the other comments in this thread - I have not heard a single Gooner ever say Wilshere should be sold or loaned out. I don't think anyone doubts his raw ability or his dedication. It's just a matter of his form and fitness not being great at the moment, and most Gooners recognise that.
Wilshere's first season would suggest he doesn't really needed to be moulded. He had everything apart from composure in the final third. And that's something that always comes last in a midfielder's development, as seen with Fabregas and Ramsey. But then again, Wilshere's best position will probably be coming from deep, so judging him on goals is silly.
As you said, it's a matter of form and fitness with Wilshere. But he seems to be getting that back in his last two games.
My problem with the Wilshere Ramsey double pivot is that neither of them is an out-rightly a defensive midfielder. I know they are both shaping up to be pretty complete midfielders, but looking at both past and present great double pivots, ours just looks too offensive and lacks size. I'm not sure if it's a great idea long term, but it seems to be the only way we can fit them all in to any formation? ... Unless we waste Ozil on the wing of course, but I'm sure he'll slot in at AMC when Cazorla/Poldi returns.
Alonso Khedira
Busquetes Xavi
Carrick Fellaini
Schweinsteiger Martinez
Vieira Gilberto
Makalele Essien
Vidal Pirlo
Bender Gundogan
.... Wilshere Ramsey...?
This is Real Madrid's Fellatino Perez slagging off a certain shortarse midfielder after flogging him to pay for Beckham(reminds me a lot of ozil/bale but that's another story)
"We will not miss Makélelé. His technique is average, he lacks the speed and skill to take the ball past opponents, and ninety percent of his distribution either goes backwards or sideways. He wasn't a header of the ball and he rarely passed the ball more than three metres. Younger players will arrive who will cause Makélelé to be forgotten.["
I've heard Gooners querying Wilshere in much the same way. 'Doesn't score enough or create enough. Passes very short' etc. and as for lacking size, Jack is taller than makalele and not much shorter than Gattuso. Plus his best performances for club and country have been with someone else as the attacking mid
Comparing Jack to Makalele or Gatusso is difficult because they are obviously completely different players.
If you are comparing size, then Gatusso was the same size as Roy Keane and has about 2 stone of weight over Jack. He could physically bully and intimidate midfields in ways Jack never will.
Makalele was just an exception to every rule. He was similar size to Jack but could jump a mile and was still a strong guy. I know Jacks put on size but he still gets swatted around a lot in midfield and spends as much time on the floor as actually playing! He obviously gets targeted but hopefully he just learns to deal with it.
I wonder if Jack and Ramsey could strike up a partnership with a similar dynamic to Keane and Scholes.
I feel his performances are improving, he just lacks the final ball/that killer instinct. He's never really had it/or the need to have it because in his breakthrough season he basically shared "Water Carrier" duties with Song for Cesc, albeit he did a good job.
Of course his level of performance has dropped, largely in part to injury IMHO, not an excuse...but the boy has missed a lot of Football over the past few years.
Jack has amazing natural ability, I've no doubt in my mind he'll be playing at a high level pretty soon assuming he keeps himself fit.
there is no exception to a rule. If there was it wouldnt be a rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Singh
And the point was that football fans' fetich with being being and imposing is ridiculous. You're not the only one though - plenty of numpty managers have wasted huge sums on shit central midfielders who offer nothing other than speaking french, being tall and looking a bit nubian, like. You dopnt need to be 6foot 2 to play in midfield.
Of course you don't need to be anything, but it helps having a physical presence in there.
Why do you choose to pick out the 'numpty managers' and just ignore every fantastic double pivot I mentioned above - every single one of which have a physical presence and more natural defensive instincts in there?
It's clearly part of a formula that works. Even Barcelona at their beautiful best had Yaya Toure and more recently Busquetes doing the dirty work.
Too bad he doesnt have Makeleles footballing IQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayan
Makalele was in a 1990s the Nantes Atlantique B team at age 20. Wilshere was already in the middle of a modern champions league and premiership outfit and being taken seriously for England.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBN
Allowing for age Wilshere's IQ is ahead of where Makalele's was as a young man. The Makalele you are comparing him to is the one who left a gaping hole in the middle of real madrid when they allowed him to go make chelsea tick.
So unless you were watching French football in the mid 90s and can honestly say that this guy:
http://www.fcnantes.com/img/makelele040209.jpg
was streets ahead of this guy:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/...41_468x286.jpg
Then I respectfully suggest you are talking out of your arse being a bit hasty in your assessment.
I didnt ignore them. They speak for themselves. Pirlo used to play in front of Gatusso too by the way. And petit/vieira wasnt exactly shite.
Busquets? might be a six foot two but he weighs in around 70KG. That gives him the physique on a middle distance runner. Not sure what point youre trying to make there
What I did do was point out that sissoko, alou diarra, salif diao etc were, are and always will be- shit. They are not the only ones trading off being big and african either: cf Christopher Samba.
After them there are countless others whom nobody hears of because they are shit. They keep getting bought though because numpties (fans and managers alike) think too much about 'physical presence' and 'the new Vieira' or other such hokum.
Once again, there is much more to being a defensive midfielder than 'physical presence.'
Well, you were the one who compared him to Makelele. Im telling you where that comparison falls flat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayan
And Wilshere is "taken seriously" on raw talent alone. Remains to be seen if he has the smarts to use that to become an effective player.
My point exactly - its far to early to make a sweeping statement like wilshere in his early 20s can never be as good a midfielder as makalele, who lets face it you didnt know about until he was closer to 30.
You'll notice I didnt compare him to makalele. I actually pointed to Madrid's laughalbe criticisms / retrospective justification for selling maka and compared those inanities to the way in which some gooners have now turned on wilshere. The idea was to throw into sharp relief how (a) fickle and (b) stupid certain 'gooners' can be.
For the record though I think wilshere, like rooney for example is one of those footballers who understands every team members jobs better than most and does indeed have a fine 'footballing brain.'
Pirlo and Gatusso were both deep lying CMs regardless of who was ahead of who. Pirlo and Gatusso actually has a similar natural balance to it that Arteta and Flamini would have. I have no doubt those two would be a very solid midfield and perhaps our best option in this system if it wasn't for Ramsey being in such irrepressible form. Fair point about Busquetes being a pussy compared to everyone else mentioned, but many consider him as the finest DCM in the world and he's got a dirty cynical side to his game for sure. I hate Busquetes but I'd feel a lot happier long term if we had someone like him (minus the cheating) partnering Ramsey/Wilshere in the middle, because we would have the natural balance I'm saying we lack.
Who said anything other than Petit and Vieira being utterly world class? That's the exact sort of midfield dynamic I would love at our club, and one that our system demands with this 4231 formation. I can see Ramsey being one half of that, but I'm not sure whether Jack would be an ideal partner for him long term despite his obvious talent and quality.
Once again, who is saying we should have lumps like the names you've mentioned? All the combinations I mentioned include HIGHLY technically gifted players, who are also balanced by being very powerful. For this system to work, you need both. My primary concern is long term if we look to develop Jack and Ramsey as our double pivot - whether they'd have enough to dominate a midfield due of Vidal and Pirlo for sake of argument. I am not questioning their technical ability. I'm saying that the VERY BEST midfield double pivots have technique combined with a certain amount of physicality that ours may lack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayan
Wilshere can be as good as any midfielder England have ever produced.
But we need a Makalele. Wilshere can never be a Makalele.
I really have no idea why people are comparing the two, other than to make a point that small guys can excel at DCM. While this can be true on exceptions, I think it's fair to say that Makalele + Yaya Toure would be a more balanced double pivot than Makalele + Wilshere/Ramsey.
Wilshere/Ramsey + Yaya Toure would probably be even better than both in this system.
Hence I'm raising the question - do Wilshere and Ramsey have the natural balance to be our long term solution to our double pivot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayan
In this case size doesn't matter at all. Iniesta and Xavi do the job for Spain Vieira and Petit did the job for Arsenal as long as they are good players there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Aye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Montyzuma
I usually start with the tail first.
quite soQuote:
Originally Posted by Montyzuma
It's an interesting debate and I think some of it comes down to what you regard as the 'double pivot's' primary purpose or objective. If it is to detect, destroy and counter then a Maka-Toure partnership is preferable. If the prime emphasis is to hold and counter, then something like Ramsey and Wilshere may be preferable, although it hasn't escaped me that the former two have proved everything in the game and the latter nothing yet.
I do sense that our collective defensive strategy is based on strategically outnumbering opponents in midfield and pressing them at crucial times and in that sense a player in the Maka mould is less pertinent although obviously a valuable asset in any squad. So many of the goals we have conceded in the last two seasons have been down to individual errors, because what we do collectively works, when we are committed to it.
Wilshere can never be a Maka primarily because his skill set means no manager would ever use him in the exact same way. Ie, he has a lot more about him, but that is not to marginalise the positional understanding the little Frenchman had. It was quite profound and only second to his ability to thwart you. There can't be many players that it would prove more difficult to get past.
We need time to see how he develops but with Ramsey's numbers right now (as well as what we see with our own eyes) mean he can be played comfortably in any position. Anyone could slip into the double pivot with him and he can even be given the holding role on his own right now. He is covering that much ground, passing so well and winning that many tackles (95% so far this season) that it really opens the options up. He is basically coming away with the ball every time he pokes his toe out and that's without mentioning his goal tally. That's why you need to take a longer term view and keep an eye on how he does to determine where he might be in the long run. Encouragingly though, most these stats extend beyond the beginning of this season and into the back end of last. More evidence that it is genuine improvement as opposed to fleeting good form.
Monty that comparison is completely off. It's like calling Vieira and Bergkamp our double pivot. Iniesta has always been an advanced playmaker and never a double pivot player.
Xavi has always had Yaya/Kieta/Busquetes balancing it out. Even for Spain, Xavi has Busquetes AND Alonso behind him.
No top team has 2 small guys in the double pivot. This is a modern day fact.
If the opportunity came to sign Sami Khedira for sake of argument, I'd slot him in next to Ramsey/Jack and be delighted, even if it relegates one of them to the bench.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montyzuma
It's interesting looking at Man Utd right now.
In Fellaini and Carrick they have close to what I'd call an ideal double pivot. It's only lacking some pace and creativity, but Rooney becomes the key player for them in that number 10 role, linking the play between midfield and attack.
A slightly different and even better one would be Schweinsteiger and Alonso. That's probably close to being perfect for me.
Ramsey and Wilshere need to work on their positioning and reading the flow of a game. That’s my main concern over physicality. Both will drift up field or to wider areas in search of the killer pass or goal instead of looking for pockets of space in the middle to pick off passes and supply the passes and support to the wider areas. You often see this vacuum of space in the middle of the park and for a team that’s about possession and short passing, that just shouldn’t happen. They’re movement is undisciplined and it’s why the fluidity of our play has gone and teams can sometimes mount attack after attack against us. The centre of the pitch should be our hub and everything should flow from there.
Rosicky just works better in the role because he knows to stay centre and provide the quick passes and support. While he’s out, the pair need to work on this. Learn patience and stop forcing passes or dribbles from bad positioning. Keep it simple and learn each other’s movement. It takes a flurry of passes to build an attack but it seems like they both go for the one killer move or look to move up the pitch too quickly leaving us vulnerable to counters.
rossicky looks good there now but was shit/injured every season between 2007/08 and last year. He refers to his goals as "collectors' items" in ad admisssion of how rare they are.
So far every vaguely sensible criticism of ramsey+wilshere looks like it will be eradicated with experience. The rest (not big enough, black enough, etc) are not sensible
With Ramsey it looks likely. Wilshere hasnt improved a lick in the last 2-3 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayan
Same thing is happening with that MacEachran boy at Chelsea, hes nowhere near. People are so desperate for Englands own Xavi. This Great White Hope scramble. When he was 16 people like Bob Wilson were saying hes better than Fabregas at the same age, at 21-22 he couldnt lace that mans boots. Hes got alot to do this Wilshere.
The thing about Wilshere is that England need him to be this creative force and dominating games but we don't, we only need him to carve out an effective niche. Thankfully there are enough young players for England to get carried away with whilst Wilshere finds his game.
Martinez, Bender, Busquetes, Khedira, Carrick, Fernandinho, Sandro, Mikel
Every top team has 1 unquestionable defensive midfielder present in their pivot. We'll probably see Arteta/Flamini fulfilling this defensive role in our side, and subsequently being paired with an all action Ramsey/Wilshere for the majority of the season.
For Ramsey and Jack to be our long term midfield pairing, one of them will have to focus heavily on the defensive side of their game. If one of them does this, then it could certainly work. Despite his goals, I can see Ramsey developing into this player for us in a while. His positional sense has vastly improved despite his all energy action game.
Right now at least I have no real concern with our midfield options. Those 4 will play 90% of our matches. Diaby can play for the odd game when he's fit to give them a break, and Rosicky is capable of dropping in. It's pretty much an ideal scenario for the moment.
They are defensive midfielders in name but most of those have more ability than just being 'destroyers'. I don't think it's fair to put Fernandinho because Man City have achieved very little with him yet (and nor would they so early in to this season). Mikel is the only one there that I would say is liimited to pure defensive ability.
The only way Ramsey and Wilshere could have a future of sharing the midfield together, would be if Ramsey accepted the role of a holding midfielder, he has the skillset and physique to become an amazing holding midfielder, but after tasting the sweetness of going forward and scoring goals, i dont think we're gonna see that. Wilshere i see as a player who can, in the future, have the ability to control the game as a nr8, but he needs a holding midfielder besides him.
Bit harsh though considering how badly injuries have hampered his development.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBN
Fabregas was something spectacularly special though and can hardly be the benchmark.
Wilshere will develop into a very different player. He seems more Iniesta than Xavi in terms of style of play, hence I'm not convinced being a double pivot player is ideally suited to him.
Woy can carry on bumming cleverly in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
Just a laughable player this one.
Is he the worst player in the world of the ones people think are good?
Cool bump bro haha lol jk you suck,
^ Terrible poster
:great post:Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBN
Not a fan of Wilshere, highly overrated IMO, there's so much wrong with his game at the moment and there's no place for him in the team IMO. Seems to play a lot though and 95% of the time seems to disappoint and make key errors.
Need to pull his socks up or ship out.
No lessons learned by many. Lucky the Wilshere out lobby doesn't have responsibility for hiring and firing or the following players would have long since departed:
Ramsey
Koscielny
Szay&2hjsu
Mertesacker
Rosicky
And they want Ozil gone too. And Giroud.
I think everyone likes Sagna and agrees he can stay.
So:
-------------- Sagna ---
Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna
Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna --- Sagna
--------- Sagna --- Sagna
Bench: Sagna, Sagna, Sagna, Sagna, Sagna
Manager: Owen Coyle
Add Walcott to your list!
One lesson I've learnt, smoking kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn