Match Reaction vs West Ham (home).

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Originally Posted by Letters

What's changed is we're on the verge of our first major trophy in 9 years. Finish the job there and it will surely give us more confidence as a squad and club.
The title was never on my radar this year and while I am disappointed at how badly we've fallen away I don't think many of us had serious thoughts we could win it this year. We clearly need more up front.

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Funny how you call it a major trophy, when most have been calling it small time for years, I personally agree it is still a big trophy.

We haven't finished the job yet, but I still think our shocking collapse with some absolute spankings this season leaves some real questions unanswered, I'm not going to sweep those under the carpet as they are very pertinent, it almost feels like they haven't happened sometimes in here.

You don't get beaten so convincingly as much as we have this season without some serious issues IMO, I don't know of too many managers that would survive with their jobs after beatings like that.

What do people think about having Pods and Giroud upfront as a 2 ?

Maybe a 4-3-1-2 , with the 3 being : Ramsey, Arteta/Flam, Ox , the one being Ozil/Cazorla, and Giroud/Pods uptop.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Funny how you call it a major trophy, when most have been calling it small time for years, I personally agree it is still a big trophy.

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Beggars can't be choosers...
It has definitely been devalued by the CL which is a shame but it's still a major trophy.

It's been a weird league season, the first two thirds were far better than any of us could have reasonably expected and have got some really good results this year in games which last year we'd have dropped points. But the spankings are a worry. I don't think whether the manager keeps his job should be based on a few games though, it should be based on how we do over a season and not too many managers who finish 4th (if we do) and win the Cup would be losing their jobs. There is a context to all this of course but still, if you'd given me 4th and the FA Cup at the start of the season I'd have been pretty happy with that.

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Originally Posted by AFC Leveller

I dunno about you guys but ever since that CC final defeat to Birmingham, i've made up my mind that we'll never win another trophy/title under Wenger and even tough we're up ahgainst Hull city, part me doesnt believe we'll win it. It feels like its fate.

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No i think most of us probably have in the back of their mind the doubt over whether we can win another trophy under Wenger, and i think even though we are playing Hull City.....not Man City, Man United, Chelsea i think most fans are not in anyway taking a win for granted.
Frankly i don't really approach any game at the moment expecting us to win....haven't for years.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Beggars can't be choosers...
It has definitely been devalued by the CL which is a shame but it's still a major trophy.

It's been a weird league season, the first two thirds were far better than any of us could have reasonably expected and have got some really good results this year in games which last year we'd have dropped points. But the spankings are a worry. I don't think whether the manager keeps his job should be based on a few games though, it should be based on how we do over a season and not too many managers who finish 4th (if we do) and win the Cup would be losing their jobs. There is a context to all this of course but still, if you'd given me 4th and the FA Cup at the start of the season I'd have been pretty happy with that.

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I agree with your last sentiment, i think most fans would have taken 4th and fa cup at the start of the season....but 4 wins from 12 whoever you happen to be playing isn't a particurlarly acceptable return. And whilst we did well in the first half of the season it was relatively deceptive because of the teams we were playing, and i'm really not seeing the improvement from last season in terms of overall league performance. The record against the big sides has been worrying, not just this season but in general for years....take Man United for example we have won once in our last eleven games against them and when you think about how bad they have been this season, you have to think there is a massive psychological block there....these teams have had consistently better players than us but there isn't the massive gap that the head to head results suggest.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I agree with your last sentiment, i think most fans would have taken 4th and fa cup at the start of the season....but 4 wins from 12 whoever you happen to be playing isn't a particurlarly acceptable return. And whilst we did well in the first half of the season it was relatively deceptive because of the teams we were playing, and i'm really not seeing the improvement from last season in terms of overall league performance. The record against the big sides has been worrying, not just this season but in general for years....take Man United for example we have won once in our last eleven games against them

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Yep, totally agree.

I think the collapse and thrashings have pretty much removed any confidence I had left in Wenger. I understand one freak result...but to be thrashed by the 3 clubs above us in a similar manner is totally unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Munchies

What do people think about having Pods and Giroud upfront as a 2 ?

Maybe a 4-3-1-2 , with the 3 being : Ramsey, Arteta/Flam, Ox , the one being Ozil/Cazorla, and Giroud/Pods uptop.

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Why not - It cant be any worse than the garbage that Wenger has us playing at the moment. The good thing about this line up is that we would have to get the ball upfield quicker & stop fucking about with it in the middle of the pitch, going sideways, backwards or getting caught in dangerous areas. The only difference for me would be to use Ox's pace up top alongside either Polds or Giroud. I would play Ozil as the 1 & Rambo, Arteta, Cazorla as the 3.

To be somewhat pedantic I actually thought we were looking something like ourselves again before the second half even started in the first half and right before they scored. Their goal was against the run of play but going forward we were looking likely to score.

I would take the revolving sponsorship cup over 4th place never mind the FA cup and for me it is pretty much every bit as meaningful a trophy as it always has been. Not too arsed how the football collective see's it generally. The embarrassing defeats have been abject and downright shameful and I hope Wenger takes a good hard look at himself over them, but IF we win the FA cup then I'd say a significant amount has changed for the very fact we've finally won a bloody trophy. It's not like we haven't been trying the last 9 years.

That's not the same as saying enough has changed or the manager is the man to take us forward but winning the FA cup would be a marked turn of events to say the least in my view. It is easy to forget the ability within a squad when half your team is out but the likes of Ozil, Ramsey, Chamberlain are proper quality and the type that can take this club forward. Even though he didn't score, you could see why Ramsey has scored so many last night.

This season has raised more questions then it's answered and that's enough for me. We had money to spend but we didn't use it wisely.

The top player we've bought has lost form and confidence very quickly because of bad management. People will continue to quote the Pires example regarding adaption time but the same argument was used for players like Chamakh, Gervinho, Giroud and other struggling players. It's 50/50 on Ozil finding his true form.

Injuries are still bad and it's made worse by Wenger keeping a small squad and under using his bench players.

Wenger is tactically stubborn and won't change things even if he sees the team struggling. No change in formation, change in position, approach....it's not enough at this level.

I doubt the cup will sort this mental block. For starters, the majority of players haven't been at Arsenal long enough to be really effected by the trophy draught. It makes no sense for this team to get jittery and choke.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

This season has raised more questions then it's answered and that's enough for me. We had money to spend but we didn't use it wisely.

The top player we've bought has lost form and confidence very quickly because of bad management. People will continue to quote the Pires example regarding adaption time but the same argument was used for players like Chamakh, Gervinho, Giroud and other struggling players. It's 50/50 on Ozil finding his true form.

Injuries are still bad and it's made worse by Wenger keeping a small squad and under using his bench players.

Wenger is tactically stubborn and won't change things even if he sees the team struggling. No change in formation, change in position, approach....it's not enough at this level.

I doubt the cup will sort this mental block. For starters, the majority of players haven't been at Arsenal long enough to be really effected by the trophy draught. It makes no sense for this team to get jittery and choke.

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Yeah I agree with this to many problems with the current setup which won't IMO ever been sorted, it's not like he's not had the opportunity to fix many of these, rather than doing so he's convinced himself crocks will stay fit all season and that we've got what it takes to beat teams without proper tactics to counter their players and an adaptable style.

I don't really see what is going to change, this season when things have been going wrong early in games, he's sat there and done nothing, I'm not sure what kind of management that is, he should at least try and change something.

On top of that we've taken some particularly bad beatings this season, which IMO based on our current position shows an element of going backwards rather than forwards seeing as we're 4th but having played a game more.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

The top player we've bought has lost form and confidence very quickly because of bad management.

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Care to elaborate? What bad management?

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Originally Posted by Letters

Care to elaborate? What bad management?

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Erm - how about buying one of the worlds best attacking play makers & then asking him to become Lee Cattermole. Watch the away game against Napoli, he was obviously under strict instructions not to venture over the halfway line due to his defensive duties - This is Ozil we are talking about. If you want defensive play Jenks, Vermaelen or Gibbs in midfield but don't ask someone like Ozil to do it - he's never done it, so it would suggest he won't be very good at it.
Then add to that the after Rambo's injury we had nobody running past a very static Giroud at any point during a game - with a player like Ozil you have to give him targets getting into goal scoring opportunities. We have given him nothing to aim at, no ways of getting beyond defenses to do what he does best, we have failed him - not the other way round.

Strict instructions :lol:

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Originally Posted by Özim

I watched the post match interview by Wenger and watched him on the touchline and 4th place means so much to him.

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It's interesting how when it suits you you take his words and actions as proof positive how much he cares, but when things aren't going so well you ignore his clear frustration and say he isn't bothered about us winning.

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Originally Posted by Letters

It's interesting how when it suits you you take his words and actions as proof positive how much he cares, but when things aren't going so well you ignore his clear frustration and say he isn't bothered about us winning.

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4th place and winning aren`t really the same thing

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Originally Posted by Letters

Strict instructions :lol:

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Any other response to what I posted apart from the usual pathetic sarcasm - How about how you disagree that he has been managed badly.

No mention of Rosicky last night, I appreciate Santi was good but it was Rosicky (IMHO) that bought the energy and movement to unstick him from a potential plodding performance. Kim looked solid & nice to see him, Rosicky and even Pod with some "robust" challenges. As I said earlier not loving the general lack of directness pre-Spam goal.
I think Pod has been put on the wing to get him fit...

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Originally Posted by Letters

It's interesting how when it suits you you take his words and actions as proof positive how much he cares, but when things aren't going so well you ignore his clear frustration and say he isn't bothered about us winning.

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To be fair to Zim, when we were being handed our arse in the thrashings this year Wenger sat there, lifeless and shell-shocked ..no reaction, no getting on the touchline to cajole, organise and instruct ...absolutely nothing, giving the impression he was clueless as to any sort of answer or response to the pummeling we were taking. To me he came across as a man resigned to our fate and accepting that we had no response, until of course for the lame stato substitutions at 68 minutes, long after we'd been raped.

...on the other hand, now that we are desperately fighting for 4th spot and facing the lesser lights in the league, he's all up on his feet early in games cajoling, organising and instructing ...get the picture

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

Any other response to what I posted apart from the usual pathetic sarcasm - How about how you disagree that he has been managed badly.

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It's just funny because Wenger is constantly criticised on here (with some justification) for not giving the players enough instruction, now he's being accused of giving players strict instructions. :shrug:

And yes, obviously Ozil needs players running on to his balls but if the players we've got who can do that are injured then that's not poor management of Ozil.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

4th place and winning aren`t really the same thing

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But Wenger's been roundly criticised (with some justification) for saying 4th place is like a trophy. The "4th Place Trophy" is widely mentioned on here as a joke at Wenger's expense. So to him it is...

Nothing like a win to bring the doom mongers out in full force.

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Originally Posted by Letters

It's just funny because Wenger is constantly criticised on here (with some justification) for not giving the players enough instruction, now he's being accused of giving players strict instructions. :shrug:

And yes, obviously Ozil needs players running on to his balls but if the players we've got who can do that are injured then that's not poor management of Ozil.

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All players will be instructed about their personal role before a game, the fact that Ozil & the other midfielders were so deep all night would suggest this is what they were told to do because its not natural for most of our midfielders. So, we could say that the instructions whilst trying to nick a draw may have worked on others, they are the wrong instructions for someone like Ozil = Bad management.
Whilst injuries to Rambo & Theo have definitely hindered Ozil, Wenger has restricted our forward movement by regularly playing Flamini & Arteta together, asking our attacking midfielders to play deep & the biggest mistake of all - not buying pace & a goalscoring threat in Jan window when he knew he was without Rambo & Theo and that Giroud is shit = Bad management

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Originally Posted by Letters

It's interesting how when it suits you you take his words and actions as proof positive how much he cares, but when things aren't going so well you ignore his clear frustration and say he isn't bothered about us winning.

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It's not actually his words, more his general demeanour and actions, I never said he doesn't like winning but I've noticed his excitement at the prospect of 4th place particularly the other night.

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Originally Posted by Maestro

To be fair to Zim, when we were being handed our arse in the thrashings this year Wenger sat there, lifeless and shell-shocked ..no reaction, no getting on the touchline to cajole, organise and instruct ...absolutely nothing, giving the impression he was clueless as to any sort of answer or response to the pummeling we were taking. To me he came across as a man resigned to our fate and accepting that we had no response, until of course for the lame stato substitutions at 68 minutes, long after we'd been raped.

...on the other hand, now that we are desperately fighting for 4th spot and facing the lesser lights in the league, he's all up on his feet early in games cajoling, organising and instructing ...get the picture

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Great post and spot on, you can just see the excitement and hear it in his interviews too.

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Originally Posted by Özim

It's not actually his words, more his general demeanour and actions.

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Which you interpret however you wish on a case by case basis in order to back up what you've already decided to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Nothing like a win to bring the doom mongers out in full force.

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Should we change our opinion because we got a couple of wins? A couple wins doesn't really change that much and doesn't fix the problems, my opinion doesn't change whether we win or lose, it will only change when I see real signs of progression over the course of a season and a demonstration that we're willing to adapt to the changing circumstances on and off the field.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Which you interpret however you wish on a case by case basis in order to back up what you've already decided to be the case.

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Not really no, but I would think after the disaster in the last couple months he would be a little less excited about beating a team we should beat who have nothing to play for at home, there's nothing on the line except 4th place, it's not like the title is an option anymore.


I can understand the excitement in the FA Cup but not when you're fighing for 4th, in football terms (not financial) it's almost meaningless and yet he reacts as if his goose has just laid a golden egg.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Not really no, but I would think after the disaster in the last couple months he would be a little less excited about beating a team we should beat who have nothing to play for at home, there's nothing on the line except 4th place, it's not like the title is an option anymore.


I can understand the excitement in the FA Cup but not when you're fighing for 4th, in football terms (not financial) it's almost meaningless and yet he reacts as if his goose has just laid a golden egg.

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Champions League football is key to our sustainability as a football club, and whilst the board may not put pressure on him to win trophies i can imagine they do for him to win 4th. Plus i don't care who you are, if your team hasn't won in almost a month you are going to celebrate when they do....doesn't matter who you are playing.
And to be honest i'd rather us finish 4th than 5th, because what's the point of having a new manager in at the club if he will have next to nothing to spend and we won't get in a top manager because the top manager wants to manage a club in the champions league?

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

Any other response to what I posted apart from the usual pathetic sarcasm - How about how you disagree that he has been managed badly.

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I expected, hence the silence. Ozil has been played into the ground with the amount of games he's played. The injury was bound to happen.

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Originally Posted by Munchies

What do people think about having Pods and Giroud upfront as a 2 ?

Maybe a 4-3-1-2 , with the 3 being : Ramsey, Arteta/Flam, Ox , the one being Ozil/Cazorla, and Giroud/Pods uptop.

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I love that idea. I want to see us line up with two up top. I understanding crowding the midfield when we are away against the likes of Chelsea, City, Liverpool but two up top is my favorite formation.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

I expected, hence the silence. Ozil has been played into the ground with the amount of games he's played. The injury was bound to happen.

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100% - its like buying a dressage horse & expecting him to finish the National. Wenger ruined Arshavin by not playing to his strengths, he's ruined Arteta by deciding he is a defensive midfielder & he'll do the same to Ozil. We've seen good improvements in the likes of Kos & Rambo but their playing where they should play & given a role that suits them.