Wenger Referendum III - End of Season Poll

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Originally Posted by Letters

I've changed my mind a few times this season. I honestly don't understand why that is so sneered at.
Keeping the same opinion about something no matter what happens seems far sillier.

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Do you honestly think people that have a firm stance on Wenger have suddenly changed their mind after one game? Wouldn't that be knee jerk?

Not many votes in yet so the sample is limited, but it does indeed suggest some people may have changed their minds. Could just be Ty using multiple accounts though.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Do you honestly think people that have a firm stance on Wenger have suddenly changed their mind after one game? Wouldn't that be knee jerk?

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FY said he'd change his mind if we beat Chelsea :shrug:
And yes, that would be knee jerk.

I've changed my opinion after a long, good run which saw us finish 3rd and win the Cup, winning some big away games on the way, games we've traditionally not turned up for. And we certainly turned up on Saturday. I think we're heading in the right direction, 2 Cups in 2 years and we've finally got a squad I believe can challenge.

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Originally Posted by Letters

FY said he'd change his mind if we beat Chelsea :shrug:
And yes, that would be knee jerk.

I've changed my opinion after a long, good run which saw us finish 3rd and win the Cup, winning some big away games on the way, games we've traditionally not turned up for. And we certainly turned up on Saturday. I think we're heading in the right direction, 2 Cups in 2 years and we've finally got a squad I believe can challenge.

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For crying out loud, Letter's. Change the record! Everyone knows your position because you say the same thing several times a week.

You seem to remember FY's stance and can probably remember a few others with a firm stance on Wenger, so what's the bloody point in discussing this again? It just serves to piss people off and wind people up after a good victory. Just chill.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

so what's the bloody point in discussing this again?

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I started the last thread over 2 months ago, early March. A lot has happened since then and now the season is over it's an obvious time to see what people think now.

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It just serves to piss people off and wind people up after a good victory. Just chill.

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I seriously don't understand why it would piss anyone off. This is a section of the board called Arsenal Debate, traditionally used to discuss all things Arsenal.
Wenger's position has been much debated on here all season, well for longer than that actually.
The end of the season is an obvious time to see where people stand now.

:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Douglas Reynholm

As a great man once said "If you're not first, you're last"

2nd or 3rd makes no difference, obviously.

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Try telling an Olympic silver medallist that, or even a Formula 1 driver.

What we're seeing here with the comments about big spending is the fact he's now happy with what he has achieved and will rest on his laurels, just like he has in the past after a sucessful season. Sadly that's called be complacent and is why we're never in the hunt for the title and won't be capable of putting a good enough run together all season to win the major trophies.

He's had his good run at the end of the season and just like it always has it convinces him the squad is largely good enough and that he can go in and buy a couple of nobodies and we'll be winning the CL and PL.

Whereas other top managers always look to improve the team/squad, Wenge doesn't really do this well enough, it's why we always have periods where we really struggle every single season and why we don't pick up majpr silverware. Every season it's the same as someone has said, it's always next season this, next season that, truth is it doesn't matter what happens next season, as long as he gets 3rd/4th and has a decent run in a domestic cup some people will be more than happy.

We have a losers mentality right there, some are more than happy to settle for being a 2nd tier team, which we clearly are from our exploits in Europe, yes we've got plenty of money, but there's not enoigh ambition at the top, there's no real drive to be the best around.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Try telling an Olympic silver medallist that, or even a Formula 1 driver.

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That isn't the same and you know why :rolleyes:

the problem with the debate is that it makes no difference, Wenger is here until the end of his contract, even if next season we fell out of the CL places (which wont happen). I reckon he would be given his last season to get us back in there and have that as leaving on a high. Back to back Cup wins will have enough support to see Wenger through til the end. We would need to lose 5-0 at home to Spuds and Chavs in consecutive weekends for the home fans to really turn.

Put in a high class keeper a Lloris or Cech and even without any additions we could make a title challenge and of course finding a way to beat Chelsea.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

I don't think anyone sneers at those who change their mind. That's not what I see. I changed mine, others changed theirs. Not based on whim I'm sure, but we're two years into the period that was supposed to be the end goal of the stadium move. Yes, there have been bigger signings. Nobody is complaining about that and it's very welcome and a sign that (still within conservative bounds) the board is delivering on promises. The manager has also started to fill urgently needed positions, whether by design or pure luck. This too is good. What it is starting to give us is a squad that might seriously be able to compete for the big prizes, certainly something we all want to see. But in addition it is giving us a team capable of returning to the type of football we became accustomed to in Wenger's early years and that's the biggest prize from my point of view.

So there are plenty of positives and nobody denies that.

The negatives are all related to the manager himself. He's a great club manager, steering the club through the leaner times and keeping things steady both financially and in terms of finishing high enough up the table each year to qualify for the CL. No trivial thing and he deserves and I believe he gets plenty of credit for that. But he's not a top coach, his faults lie on the pitch. We know this because we have seen them year after year and even after the loosening of the purse strings the same faults are evident. And his stubborn streak is still a mile wide. The conclusion many have reached is that he can't take us up to the very top level that was supposed to be the point of the stadium move.

When you say things like there being no difference between 2nd and 3rd, or there's no difference between finishing above or below the gypos, or that we are making progress because we don't need to pre-qualify for the CL proper, these look back to the period we're supposed to be emerging from. They are the excuses that maybe did apply when the funds were tightly restricted and we had to sell top players. They don't apply now though, not at all or in any way. Time is up on excuses. This is what people sneer at, the excuses.

For example, the excuse about not being able to compete with the dopers went out the window this season. We had it in our hands to dispose of the gypos at least. We blew it, not because they had more money than us but because we couldn't finish out the season in the required manner. The question is why? Anyone who thinks the answer is because 2nd is no different to 3rd, or it's acceptable to slacken off because every team does it (supposedly, though look at the gypo finish to the season for contrary evidence), or we were saving ourselves for the cup (therefore not being good enough to compete on two fronts), etc, etc, excuse, excuse, is going to get sneered at.

Anyone who says we can't change the manager because there are no guarantees about how the next guy will perform, is going to get sneered at or criticised at least. Of course there are no guarantees. If managers came with guarantees then they'd settle at the top clubs and never move. This thinking is just a way of reaching for a safety net.

It's difficult to say never about Wenger's chances of grabbing another title, a little easier to say he'll never win the CL. All there is to go on when predicting the future is the evidence of the last 10 years. That evidence points at it being time for him to pass the responsibilities to somebody else if we genuinely want to push on to the top. You can say what if, what if, in the face of the evidence all day long. Or you can take the evidence and act on it. But don't make excuses to try to make the evidence go away. It's still there, in the record books. Just like a 12th Cup for the club and a 6th Cup for Wenger is in the record books. The good and the bad. A difficult decision for fans, no wonder minds change back and forwards.

But the evidence is there. Wenger's teams fail on the biggest stages, again and again, check the record books for the gory details. Under Wenger I'm sure we can almost achieve this or very nearly achieve that. We can get tantalisingly close, within sniffing distance. But never there. This is what his last 10 years tells us. Lots of fun, lots of farce, maybe another cup win (which is much appreciated but not the topmost achievement by any reckoning), but ultimately glorious failure. This is what lies in store for Arsenal under Wenger for the next 2 years at least. Is that good enough?

Of course there is that fact he won't be going anywhere until 2017 at the earliest. And listening to him after the cup win, and I'll happily grant him his moment after a day like that, he's certainly not made any firm decisions about that date yet. So he could be here for longer. I hope not because he'll degrade his legacy badly if he hangs on but fails to win a big prize.

I loved the football we played in the final though. Just as much as I hated the football we played during the season run-in.

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I agree with most you say NQ but I have an issue with "steering us through the leaner times". The only noises I remember from our Directors/Manager when giving us the reasons the leave Highbury was for us to push on & become the dominant team in Europe. There was never any mention of potential leaner times. The stadium repayments is a red herring when it comes to excuses for a non-competitive achievements of the past decade. A relatively low percentage of the additional attendance income was more than enough to meet the stadium repayments, our main issue was that we had a poor sponsorship deal compared to others ( who's fault was that ) & that the Chavs & Gypos have had sugar daddy money to lavish on world class players.
That aside when you look at us over the past few years against the likes of Spurs & Liverpool - have we really moved that far ahead of them since moving. We were further ahead of these teams when we were at Highbury!
So not only has the move been virtually the opposite to dominating Europe - we don't compete for our own league & teams that don't have the additional stadium revenue or sugar daddies are battling with us every year for 4th place.

To be a dominant team in Europe, we have to have players to rival the Messi's, Ronaldo's etc. You cannot do it buy buying half decent players or 2nd division French players. In my mind Wenger has never had the desire to push for dominance because he was aware of the costs involved. Instead due to the 8 year waiting list at Highbury, we were fed a story to "go quietly" & allow the shareholders to reap the rewards that the new stadium would bring.

Under Wenger we will never be anything other than "nearly men" - he doesn't have he desire to take us to the next level.

We will see again the same old story unfold this summer. We have the weakest spine of any of the top teams. No recognised GK, an old slow German CB, inexperienced DM & no world class finisher. This WILL NOT be rectified. Any decent signings he makes will come late in the transfer window, giving them less time to enjoy pre-season with new team-mates & only because the fans/press are pressurising him.

He has already stated that he will not pay over the odds for players - Barca do, Madrdid do, Chelsea do, City do, Bayern do, PSG do & these are the teams regularly winning their domestic leagues & challenging for the C.L.
Football has changed in his time but he cannot see it & doesn't want to be part of it. Many on here may agree with this philosophy but if you do then enjoy years like this year because its as good as it will ever get.

Just tell us that we don't now want to be the best team in Europe, apologise to the fans for the lies told to get us out of Highbury & then reduce season ticket prices to the same as the other teams that have no chance of winning the league - then I would have no complaints.

I voted Wenger out. I think this is as good as we will get with him in charge, 3rd place finish FA Cup win, job done, we finished behind the dopers so theoretically we have won the league..

It's all been covered on this thread for the reasons to why Wenger should step down and allow someone else to have a go.

Wenger has built us a brand new stadium without us getting into a debt crisis. He was unable to spend big during that period but kept the CL revenue coming in by keeping us in the competition. Now that the money is freed up again, he has spent £40+ and £30+ on two players. It seems clear to me that the reason for him not spending before was to make sure the club finances were in order, unlike other clubs who have gone down the toilet. Now the money is freed up, he is showing that he will spend big if need be.

The squad is now looking a lot better and I am expecting a couple more good buys this summer to beef it up to challenge.

SAF did well as manu manager - there is no doubt about his credentials even if we might not like all of his methods - but he did not have to fund anything. Mourinho got the best part of a billion and surprise won a couple of titles. I would seriously doubt if either of them would have taken the job that Wenger had to do and been as successful as Wenger in keeping the team so high up without the ability to splash out on expensive players.

Now he is showing what he can do, building up a good squad so I think we should back him for at least a couple of seasons. Without the silly amounts of money that Chavs and Citeh have been given, with a couple of players and a fair wind we can challenge for the title next year. Tell me which other managers could have done all of the above and got us to this position - without having the sugar daddy money to spend. I can't think of any.

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Originally Posted by Coney

Wenger has built us a brand new stadium without us getting into a debt crisis. He was unable to spend big during that period but kept the CL revenue coming in by keeping us in the competition. Now that the money is freed up again, he has spent £40+ and £30+ on two players. It seems clear to me that the reason for him not spending before was to make sure the club finances were in order, unlike other clubs who have gone down the toilet. Now the money is freed up, he is showing that he will spend big if need be.

The squad is now looking a lot better and I am expecting a couple more good buys this summer to beef it up to challenge.

SAF did well as manu manager - there is no doubt about his credentials even if we might not like all of his methods - but he did not have to fund anything. Mourinho got the best part of a billion and surprise won a couple of titles. I would seriously doubt if either of them would have taken the job that Wenger had to do and been as successful as Wenger in keeping the team so high up without the ability to splash out on expensive players.

Now he is showing what he can do, building up a good squad so I think we should back him for at least a couple of seasons. Without the silly amounts of money that Chavs and Citeh have been given, with a couple of players and a fair wind we can challenge for the title next year. Tell me which other managers could have done all of the above and got us to this position - without having the sugar daddy money to spend. I can't think of any.

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I'm not. Besides a new keeper I think we'll be looking at internal solutions.

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Originally Posted by Coney

Wenger has built us a brand new stadium without us getting into a debt crisis. He was unable to spend big during that period but kept the CL revenue coming in by keeping us in the competition. Now that the money is freed up again, he has spent £40+ and £30+ on two players. It seems clear to me that the reason for him not spending before was to make sure the club finances were in order, unlike other clubs who have gone down the toilet. Now the money is freed up, he is showing that he will spend big if need be.

The squad is now looking a lot better and I am expecting a couple more good buys this summer to beef it up to challenge.

SAF did well as manu manager - there is no doubt about his credentials even if we might not like all of his methods - but he did not have to fund anything. Mourinho got the best part of a billion and surprise won a couple of titles. I would seriously doubt if either of them would have taken the job that Wenger had to do and been as successful as Wenger in keeping the team so high up without the ability to splash out on expensive players.

Now he is showing what he can do, building up a good squad so I think we should back him for at least a couple of seasons. Without the silly amounts of money that Chavs and Citeh have been given, with a couple of players and a fair wind we can challenge for the title next year. Tell me which other managers could have done all of the above and got us to this position - without having the sugar daddy money to spend. I can't think of any.

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It seems a fair argument on the surface until you look back at the way we closed out the season, with the £30mill and £40mill players on the pitch. We didn't push all the way to the finish line and that's a true indicator of where we are with Wenger. All of those financial things you mention can't and shouldn't be denied. You are probably right regarding Maureen, he wouldn't have taken on the challenge. Ferguson went out with a title won by probably his weakest squad ever, finishing above both dopers in the process. Wenger has done an excellent job in terms of keeping the finances rolling in. In terms of what has happened on the pitch he's been second best almost every time it has really mattered.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

It seems a fair argument on the surface until you look back at the way we closed out the season, with the £30mill and £40mill players on the pitch.

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https://41.media.tumblr.com/5b80f0bc...zg1eo1_500.jpg

Looked pretty good to me.

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Originally Posted by Letters

https://41.media.tumblr.com/5b80f0bc...zg1eo1_500.jpg

Looked pretty good to me.

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Yes we already know you think the FA Cup is in some way significant.

How many turned up for the parade? Enough that it seems I'm not alone in thinking that :tiphat:

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Originally Posted by Letters

How many turned up for the parade? Enough that it seems I'm not alone in thinking that :tiphat:

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What does this have to do with anything?

Should Wenger stay or go? Can we win a title or compete in Europe with him in charge? Has he taken us as far as he can take us? Do we need a new manager to take us up a level? These are the questions. But it appears you believe they can be dismissed because fans celebrated winning the FA Cup? Explain please.

I'm not dismissing anything. You feel the end of the season was disappointing. I disagree. The fact is we pushed Chelsea as hard as we could (from afar, they were always, realistically, out of reach after our poor start). The first really poor result we had was Swansea at home - that only happened after the title had gone. Till then we'd pushed hard.
Where I think we differ is you see that slump/taking our eye off the ball as a sign of the same old failings. You see us slipping back below City as significant.
I completely disagree. This sort of thing happens to every team in every sport - Chelsea got spanked by West Brom of all people after they'd won the title. We did enough to show City we were a threat, I don't care about finishing a few points above or below them - unless it's the difference between 1st and 2nd obsessing about finishing above a certain side is Spurs level thinking. When the title was gone the FA Cup should have been a priority. We did enough to finish 3rd thus ensuring automatic CL qualification, I was a little concerned about a lack of momentum but we picked up in the last league game of the season and you cannot argue with our performance in the Cup Final.

I do see the 2 Cups as significant. For years people were saying we'd never win a trophy under Wenger again (after the Birmingham debacle I was one of them). For years people have been saying that this is the season we'll finish outside the top 4. Now people are saying Wenger will win us another title. He has repeatedly proved us wrong before, why not now?

The new financial details have shown a clear change in the callibre of player we're signing - it shows the stuff about Wenger refusing to spend money was nonsense, he may have been a little over-cautious but he is someone who will never put us in long term financial trouble for short term gain. The new level of players we're signing are making a difference, it's already started to bring trophies, we're very close to a side who can seriously challenge for a title. Can Wenger deliver it? He's done it before so sure, why not now he's got the resources to challenge the dopers.

I do find myself siding with Letters here, at the time I was incredibly disappointed that we failed to finish above city, but looking back from afar (well five weeks) I consider it largely insignificant.

As I've previously said we are in the same boat with Wenger as City and United are in with Pellegrini and Van Gaal....all managers of the same standard/ability who in many respects are dinosaurs. And especially in the case of Wenger and Van Gaal are very stubborn, entrenched figures.

As far as I am concerned we won't win the title with our current squad, but add a holding midfielder and a striker and I believe we can....so really it's up to what Wenger is willing to do in the transfer market.
The fact that we have brought in Cech suggests that he is willing to be more ruthless in pursuit of a major trophy.

And our more pragmatic approach to teams like city, United etc also suggests we won't be so naive when it comes to the big sides, I also think the FA cup final was largely a result of good preparation.....so definite positives.

Put it this way compared with six months ago I am not anxious about him being with us till 2017.

:patrice:

I totally get why Cripps was banned. Has anyone else worked it out?

Answers on a postcard fanx.