Neuer is mental.
So happy to have to have a great keeper of our own though. Cech has been exceptional minus the West Ham disaster.
Cheers Roman.
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Neuer is mental.
So happy to have to have a great keeper of our own though. Cech has been exceptional minus the West Ham disaster.
Cheers Roman.
Although BT have lost me the ability to watch these game live, listening to the game and the end result was great......hats off to the boys for never giving up and always believing! Wumger lives on.....a cat has fewer lives than he does (lol at my own joke)
Still :patrice:
It shows that on our day we can go toe to toe with anyone. :dance:
The sad thing is even before last night, apart from in the minds of hardened Wenger out people I think we all know we are capable of matching anyone on our day.....and that Wenger is tactically capable of matching many of those around him (still hasn't quite mastered the midget sociopath)Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The sad thing being is that we don't see it consistently enough, how many times have we seen turning points only to bafflingly revert to type....so frustrating we have a coach who clearly is far from being stupid or inept and yet he seems to at times will fully make amateurish errors.
Last night proved for me that our failings are down to Wengers stubbornness not incompetence
Said we didn't have a sniff, feels so good to be wrong on that score!
Bellerin's assist :bow:
Fuck, we really must challenge for the title this year (CL is beyond us I think).
We are capable, and we have a great squad. It's all about the mentality, preparation and hard work. That, and strengthening key areas when we need to.
If Wenger can keep us in touch by Christmas, he MUST strengthen. If he does, we can win the league. I really hope this isn't all another false dawn.
Tactically last night, Wenger was spot on. Listening to BT, they went on and on about us not closing down Alonso and letting him have the ball, while completely ignoring the fact we blocked off all his options. It was an intentional tactic and the players performed brilliantly. They stayed compact and closed off the space. Of course, a team as good as Bayern will always create chances, but most were long shots from tight angles. Cech made some brilliant saves, but most of those saves were ones you expect a keeper of his quality to make. Koscienly and Mertesacker were oustanding, Monreal is one of our best players this season. Almost every match he is giving an 8/10 performance. Bellerin started slowly, Costa was a menace but the way he came back into the game, shows just how good he is and will be. The pace he showed yesterday towards teh end of the game, not just for Ozil's goal but earlier on when he chased a lost cause and won us a corner. It just kept the pressure on Bayern and kept our fans going.
it was the right decision to start Theo upfront as his runs kept Bayern further back and he caused some problems. Should have done better with some of his chances, but the save from Neuer was outstanding. His pace gave us the chance to counter effectively whereas starting with Giroud would have allowed Bayern to settle but his impact as a sub was much better. Bayern just didnt know what to do with him and some of his hold up play last night was superb, if only he can play at that intensity everytime.
Thats not the first time this year either we have won a game having less possession, (i think its the 7th), it shows that Wenger is making tactical decisions to play the game that way. City and United away, Liverpool at home and now Bayern at home, we all had less posession yet these games have produced our biggest wins. Its not luck, its brilliant management. Wenger has his faults of course, but arguing he doenst do tactics is just wrong. Last night showed he does, and it was one of the best arsenal performances i have seen.
Up the Arsenal
Nice to be able to read the papers this morning rather than avoiding them at all costs.
It was an odd game. We played in the most un-Arsenal like way and as it turns out that was the precise method to diffuse an on-form Bayern. Essentially we turned them into us, they were tippy tappy (albeit stunningly good at it) without doing real damage in the final third.
I don't think we were on top form ourselves. Sloppy passing. Lacked confidence until the game wore on. Not so hot in the final third either. And a rare occasion where Alexis succumbed to fatigue, not surprising really considering how much we rely on him.
What really stood out was the pre-game planning, the tactics and the discipline of the players in conducting those tactics. Very un-Arsenal. Very un-Wenger. But credit has to go to the manager. He figured out what was required, laid the deception beforehand with his "all out attack" message, and then set us up to counter, but not only that we were set up to carefully balance energy over the 90 minutes. That showed at the end when we stormed past a tiring Bayern defence. Bellerin was playing like it was still the first minute. And Ozil was sprinting into the box.
I'm betting Bayern arrived assuming they knew how we'd play, that we'd be guilty of being as predictable as so many opposition managers, notably our last two CL opponents, claimed. It was very encouraging to see Wenger shake things up and catch Pep wrong footed.
Cech showed why he must start every game in every competition. He exudes confidence and experience at the back. He has winner written all over, the best keeper in the PL and the best signing of the summer. And a chav legend pinched from Maureen despite his protests - transfers really don't come better than that.
Then there's Coquelin. Surely the most improved player in Europe? He's a captain in the making (a proper one, not an afterthought like our recent captain's role). He spotted the problems early on yesterday and he made the adjustments himself. At least it very much looked that way. Maybe he got a call from the sidelines, but anyway he was instrumental in shutting down Bayern's game in the final third when initially it looked like they were going to slice us to ribbons.
We desperately needed this result for so many reasons. These are the occasions why players like Cech, Ozil and Alexis have come to the club.
That's TWICE now. The demolition of Utd with an effective game plan and now the diffusing of Bayern. This is the standard we need to keep up.
Now we need to do it all over in the return leg. Bayern will be well up for that, it'll be the biggest test we have faced in a long time. Pass that test and we are in business.
Hopefully the injuries aren't going to sweep in and take this momentum away.
I was about to say something similar about matching the best teams. It’s why I’m done stating such games are the ‘defining moment’. We’ve had this conversation on GW before. We beat Bayern on their own ground when they were at their best and won the CL. Weren’t we the only team to beat them there that year? Didn’t we go on to have some strong run on the league after that victory? We’ve always known we can beat the best teams. We’ve beaten them all. Barca, AC Milan, Dortmund…when we’ve been written off and things look hopeless we show up with a solid performance. We just need consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Challenging for the league is the minimum expectation we all cited this summer. Now is our time, no excuses.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Agree with this, but first, some propers...Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
I've criticised Wenger plenty for his set up and tactics but he got them spot on last night - not only on the night, but also for his decision not to try to 'rest' his best players last Saturday. He showed that he can do the business tactically when the choice is simple and his team have to do what is necessary to get the win. Do we also have to be grateful that Ospina wrote himself off for the CL after the Olympiacos game?
Whisper it quietly, but our defence is looking like the real deal, having been a bit of a laughing stock at times over the past couple of seasons. Not just last night - but our stats/clean sheets in this regard suggests that we are finally getting some proper balance and organisation in this area. Any team will make defensive errors, but its our consistency in the back third that is giving me some hope going forwards. Our full backs are arguably the best in the league ATM, and Cech is clearly instilling confidence. Let's hope that this shut out of a monster Bayern team increases this self-belief.
Ozil is stepping up to the plate - and recently has begun to justify his promise/price tag. He looks a lot more like he wants to be in this team.
The team is exuding togetherness and common purpose ATM - and the manager deserves credit for this also.
BUT let's remember that we beat Bayern the season before last and drew with them last season (albeit losing the other fixtures against them). For a while now, this team has the odd exceptional result in it, and while we are looking better in the 'big games' so far this season, the jury is understandably still out as to whether we are capable of stepping up on a more consistent basis. We basically have to beat Bayern again, as well as the return legs against Olympiacos and Zagreb, and I have concerns as to whether we will prevail against teams that are much more cautious ans defence minded than Manure and Bayern. Maybe the mental attitude will be there in all 3 remaining CL fixtures now that its do or die. If it is, then I will dare to dream again.
Kinda impressed that you managed to have a dig at Wenger after last night's result. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Zimtastic.
:gp: Ollie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ollie the Optimist
I was watching the same BT feed and listening to Owen Hargreaves saying we need to put more pressure on them, be more brave and not show them so much respect. The other commentator implied we were being negative. Total bollocks. I was almost caught up agreeing with Hargreaves thinking we can't stand off them but took a step back and looked at what was going on on the pitch. They weren't hurting us and cutting us open. We had them contained, restricted their chances the best way possible and set ourselves nicely for the counter attacks. If it weren't for some fine saves and maybe a little more composure in the box, we'd have been ahead. Wenger got the tactics right.
He got it spot on last night and has shown what he's capable of....I'm just saying that It's frustrating that we have a capable manager who makes baffling decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I think that's constructive criticism to say "if you can produce results like that, why aren't you on a more consistent basis and why are you still allowing ridiculous defeats to happen which could clearly have been avoided"
It's frustration, only a minuscule amount of supporters want to find fault with the manager....id love nothing more than for him to confound us all and win another title before he goes. I genuinely mean that, I'd want to win the title regardless but would mean even more to me if we did it under Wenger.
Top result but it shows what a top keeper can do for you. Bellerin just gets better. the way he just bombed past the defender for Ozil's goal.
we were very lucky to win though with the first goal but how often do we dominate play only to make a mistake at the back and conceded. nice being the other way round for once.
the problem though is that Olympiakos won so unless we can get a point at Bayern... we might need to win by two goals or score 3 in Athens. Also winning means 3rd place is a lot more likely now so it could be a dose of the Spursday night cup.
Careful. Letters may start that silly 'Wenger didn't do anything significantly' different counter argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
I would imagine NO supporter wants to find fault with their teams manager but our manager simply brings the vast amount of criticism on himself. We've had these glory moments before, beating Bayern away for example only to follow it with the usual struggles against Stoke & Swansea. If you read the posts at the moment its as though we are now "Wonder Team" - it was only a few weeks ago we lost to a Greek side who hadn't won away in the C.L for 12 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
We played well against Utd, played OK 2nd half against Watford & very good last night but 10 years of proof tells us what will happen next.
What.A.NIGHT!!
Echo everything about Wenger's tactics being spot on. You're never going to out pass or out dominate a Pep Bayern on the ball. The key was to keep our shape and discipline, not get caught up in silly pressing up the pitch and to take whatever chances that we got. And to also hope that our keeper remained strong whenever Bayern inevitably got some half chances which they did ...... don't think we would have won had Ospina or Ches been playing tonight let alone a clown like Almunia. Shows you the importance of having a top top goalie in the big games.
Bellerin had a difficult time against Douglas Costa who's probably the best winger in Europe right now before recovering to put in that assured performance leading up to that second goal.
Moreal, Kos, Coquelin and Per fantastic.
Santi's ability to use his quick footnedess to worm his way out of intense Bayern pressing and to start counter's was just so imperative to our game last night.
Ironically the only player to play below par tonight was Alexis. That bad pass to Costa nearly cost us. He'll make up for it with a hat trick against Everton I'm sure.
We absolutely must qualify now. This result won't count for shit if we still go out and the other result makes it still incredibly difficult for us. Barring Zagreb doing us a favour or Olympikiakos pulling off an upset against Bayern, it'll probably now come down to us having to beat Olympikiakos by two clear goals in Greece in the final game which is no easy feat. That Olympikakos game really fucked us over :doh: .... even a draw would have been acceptable as Olympiakos would have dropped points as well. Fucking Ospina.
Isn't that just football though? We shouldn't be losing to West Ham at home but nor should City. Football is just like that sometimes. On paper we shouldn't hardly ever be losing but football doesn't work like that, sport doesn't work like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
We have, historically, done it too often but this calendar year we've been better. We do need to get more consistent but the Utd game and last night are signs of hope, as are some of the big games we won last season. I think we'd all love it if Wenger goes out on a high.
Still dont think they are leagues above us. May be a touch better with Aguero in it, but no way close to being considered way better than us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
No one is saying it doesn't happen, no one says we shouldn't ever lose games....of course defeats happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
But it's a case of analysing why they happen and learning from it that helps, and as P'n'G rightly says more often than not results like last night prove to be false dawns, and in some ways it's better to appreciate them as one off results rather than encouraging trends.
I'd like to think now his margin for error has narrowed so he will be forced to assess what he did wrong in games we lose, and pressure will come on him to acheive more than just the bare minimum.
Two FA cup wins are good of course they are, but they have to be a springboard so want to see more performances where the manager puts his money where his mouth is and less statements where he claims to feel vindicated for not buying a striker because he shouldn't.
Unless Aguero is in his beast mode form (about a couple of months a year), there's nowt much in it between our respective first elevens tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
Where they may have an advantage over us is that they have a deeper squad, thanks to them being able to keep 140 k a week players on the bench, something with our financial situation compared to theirs, we can't do. *cough Sagna cough*
I also don't think Pellegrini's as good a manager as Wenger though and additionally, like us in the past, their mentality isn't as strong and resolute as could be and can be prone to collapse when things go wrong ..... it's probably more of an issue for them considering that a lot of their team are just mercenaries.
Fantastic result, I did'nt think it would happen.
We must be solid defensively far more often now in every match we play.
Hope Ramsey is ok and not out too long.
Well done Arsenal, keep it up.
I think we've won more big games in this calendar years to show we're getting better at them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
It's debatable at the moment whether it's a trend, I guess we'll see that as we go through the season but the Bayern game is hot on the heels of the Utd one so there are good signs.
See this is where we should be drumming it into our players every week. Convince them that it's not us that will collapse when things get tough, and that it's the other teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Emirates Gallactico
Confidence is not only about being cocksure when you win. It's also about believing you will pull yourself through when you're 1-0 down and everything is going against you. And if you do lose, that it's not through lack of effort or approach, but it was just not your day / the ref was a cunt etc.
It's all in the mentality (work), preparation (tactics) and on the pitch (quality/desire). The quality of the players isn't in doubt, and hasn't been on numerous occasions in the past (spending or not).
The one thing which may tip the balance is if we're running on empty at Christmas, with injuries, and Wenget decides not to strengthen.
It's in our hands (in the most part), fucking do it!
Our under-19's also beat Bayern a few hours before at Borehamwood, 2-0. Iwobi scored a screamer apparently.
They are in a similar Euro competition and play the same games as the first team, so will be travelling out with them to play Bayern and co too.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/...andries-jonker
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
This is where the character of the team comes to the fore. Ballack was briefly talking about th Chelsea situation before the game, saying that they used to have 6/7 international captains in the dressing room, guys who could deal with the loudmouth cunt that is Mourinho, whereas now, they don't seem to have that backbone to fight back.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Those are the guys that will get you through the shit when it hits the fan. The literal and figurative giants we used to have in our team, scrapping out games when things aren't quite clicking together. They are the guys that inspire others around them and can keep confidence from hitting rock bottom. It's not something you can coach or instil, either you have it or you don't and it evolves organically. That's where buying in the right players comes into it and not just based on pure technical ability. Whether those personalities exist enough within this squad remains to be seen. Sometimes it isn't immediately apparent and this season will make or break this group of players I think.
Aguero, Sterling, Bony, DeBruyne, vs Sanchez, Giroud, Walcott, Welbeck. Hmmmm, which to choose?Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
What are you seeing there? It's really not that obvious from that line up of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Football fans with our lovable biases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Just ask the fan of any other club which bunch they would choose and you will get your answer.
Basically what you are saying is City spent 200m and we spent 80m for the same thing. It is not for nothing that we were crying out for a striker in July. If we had the City lineup, would anyone still be asking for a striker? Be real. Only Sanchez is as good as what City have up front.
I thought we were comparing starting XIs or squads, not just part of them. Overall I don't think there's much in it.
No, I didn't say that. I said it's not clear cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Especially if we’re talking about the front line and swapping them over. Giroud has a more consistent strike record over Bony in the Prem. Both are 20+ strikers but I’ve only seen Bony score that much once in the Prem. I’d prefer Bony but it’s debatable not clear cut. Walcott has a more consistent record of goals over Sterling and De Bruyne. I’d say they are both technically more skilled than Walcott on the ball but I don’t know about off the ball and getting goals. So if we’re talking whose going to get more goals, I really don’t think it’s clear cut. Welbeck isn’t worth comparing. His goal contribution is pathetic.
I’m not so certain about City’s strike force without Sergio. If we’d swapped, I’d still think we’d need extra even though I think they have talented players.
When it comes to opinions nothing is clear cut. We discuss to compare opinions
Walcott doesnt score goals, hasnt done consistently for 3 seasons now. No point arguing that he has been injured. You cant argue that a knife is sharp, if you cant find where you left it. when he plays he is more miss than hit.
Giroud is 1 dimensional he has no movement. Bony as he showed in Swansea is everything Giroud is and more, he can actually do more than stand in 1 position.
Welbeck is well I dont know what to say.
Squads are relative but our keeper is slightly better than theirs,
Our backlines are comaparable but they have moe depth in CB than us
Midfield they have the 2 Fernandos as DM, we have only Coq
Creatively we have Cazorla and Ozil, while they have Yaya and Silva.
It is not for nothing that most pundits rank them favourites over us.
It may not be clear cut to you but it is pretty obvious to me
Anything however is possible in football
I wouldn't take Bony over Giroud, not if we now consider Theo to be our first choice. Giroud is a better alternative to Bony. The question is, is Theo better than Giroud and Bony? Jury is out. He's better at scaring defenders, but we need to see some firepower from him now. Aguero is better than all of them rolled together. Don't think DeBruyne is a striker at all really. Neither is Alexis.
Bias or not, I'd take our first eleven over the gypos. I think our lot have a better attitude to the game, less cynicism, more football. Apart from Aguero, one of my favourite players and has a superb attitude and if found a genie lamp he'd be playing for us up top with Alexis, Ozil and Theo behind. Can you imagine it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
The problem with you is the way you see the negative in our own squad but look at the clear green grass in other squads without the facts. The hate for Walcott is blinding sometimes. He has scored consistently since being back from injury . That’s a fact and not opinion. As much as I say Giroud is a limited striker, he has had 3 seasons for us where he’s scored goals for us. Not a great deal but I can’t look at Bony’s one season for Swansea and say it’s clear swap. It was just one season. Sterling doesn’t have a great scoring record. Neither does De Bruyne. Tally up the goal records and it’s not a huge margin.
Walcott had a 1 in 2 ratio before his injury, the last 2 seasons he had a poorer ratio but you can't just ignore the injury as irrelevant - unless the point is he's always going to have injury problems and thus won't be effective a la Diaby but it's a bit early to write him off right now IMO. This year his ratio is about 1 in 2 so far which is perfectly respectable. He's no Aguero but not many players are, if he keeps a 1 in 2 ratio this season he'll be a real asset.
Say we swapped Giroud or Welbeck for Bony. How would you feel about our strikeforce?Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
His performance on Tuesday was a big setback. He has to do a lot more than that if he wants to pin down the role. As things stand, we still need a striker come January or the summer. Theo has been showing signs he's stepping up but he's not there yet and surely has a limited time to prove his credentials. The 1 in 2 ratio is entirely misleading. It appears to show consistency but the real measure is whether he can bag 20+ goals over a campaign on a consistent basis. If he can do that he's a viable option. And if he can do it when it really matters then he's a good option. Can't see it myself. There are upsides to his game no doubt, but the downside are there too and they are a real issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters