Match Reaction: Arsenal 2-1 Burney

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Originally Posted by Douglas Reynholm

Yep, just challenging isn't enough. Not this year.

We should be comfortably clear already but we've conspired to cock it up.

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:good:

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Originally Posted by Kano

At the start of the season, looking at our squad, Wenger's mistakes in not getting another striker and good back up or more for Coquelin and looking at the 'traditional strengths' of our rivals, putting in a decent challenge was enough.

But it's become apparent that this is our best chance in ages to win the damn thing. I don't buy the idea that we should be walking it - that rarely ever happens in this league anyway - but compared to those around us, we have enough to win it. Both the players and the manager have a responsibility to make that happen.

I don't think much will change next season either, teams will continue to play on the counter, press hard, win away from home a lot more and generally make life harder for the traditionally big teams. So our chances won't be restricted to this season only but that's no excuse not to capitalise on the chance available now.

And if not, Wenger out? I'm not sure what that even means in real terms outside of showing frustration on the Internet or the pub. Unless there is palpable, continuous anger shown toward the manager from the terraces, then he won't leave until the board says so.

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6 months ago challenging might have been enough but the state of play has changed since then and we have to pass judgement on what is actually happening. I don't believe we should be walking it because I know we're not that good but you don't have to be that good to win it this year, that's why there is a strong feeling of now or never.

Wenger in, Wenger out, I don't care. I know he's not going anywhere but any criticism that comes his way this season is probably going to be warranted.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Wenger in, Wenger out, I don't care. I know he's not going anywhere but any criticism that comes his way this season is probably going to be warranted.

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Do you think the level of criticism of him so far this year is warranted?

Despite our car crash of a start to the CL campaign we've qualified from the group. I don't think we have a chance of beating Barca but I don't think any other club in England does right now. We've had pretty easy FA Cup draws so far but we've not slipped on any banana skins yet and really should get to the quarter finals at least. And in the league...well, we've had our disappointing results but you get those. We're level on points with City who early season many were declaring champions elect - some still are.

If we fall away then Wenger does deserve a lot of criticism but If I didn't know any of the results so far and I saw how the season had gone so far I don't think I'd be too disappointed.
We're still in the 2 main Cups, we're in touch in the league. The season has been fine so far. I've no idea where this expectation comes from that we should be walking it.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Do you think the level of criticism of him so far this year is warranted?

Despite our car crash of a start to the CL campaign we've qualified from the group. I don't think we have a chance of beating Barca but I don't think any other club in England does right now. We've had pretty easy FA Cup draws so far but we've not slipped on any banana skins yet and really should get to the quarter finals at least. And in the league...well, we've had our disappointing results but you get those. We're level on points with City who early season many were declaring champions elect - some still are.

If we fall away then Wenger does deserve a lot of criticism but If I didn't know any of the results so far and I saw how the season had gone so far I don't think I'd be too disappointed.
We're still in the 2 main Cups, we're in touch in the league. The season has been fine so far. I've no idea where this expectation comes from that we should be walking it.

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Sometimes it's OTT the way people express themselves but if you strip away the bile there are normally legit concerns. The trouble is we've been here before and the drop off in performance over the last month has brought all those concerns back into the mix, especially as we are about to enter the Feb/March period where things have unravelled for us in the past.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Sometimes it's OTT the way people express themselves but if you strip away the bile there are normally legit concerns. The trouble is we've been here before and the drop off in performance over the last month has brought all those concerns back into the mix, especially as we are about to enter the Feb/March period where things have unravelled for us in the past.

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I agree, but the level of criticism on here is based on the unravelling having already happened this season. I agree there have been some worrying wobbles of late but you get those, while we're in touch I'll believe we have a chance. I've spent all season being WUMmed for suggesting that maybe we should actually wait to see what happens before over-reacting, I really don't think it's such an unreasonable position. Meh.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I agree, but the level of criticism on here is based on the unravelling having already happened this season. I agree there have been some worrying wobbles of late but you get those, while we're in touch I'll believe we have a chance. I've spent all season being WUMmed for suggesting that maybe we should actually wait to see what happens before over-reacting, I really don't think it's such an unreasonable position. Meh.

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The problem (for me at least) is that the criticism has become all-encompassing, and this leads to debate that is neither measured nor nuanced. It is obvious that the manager has many strong points. Achieving the level of consistency that our team has shown over the past 10 years without throwing huge money (relatively) is no mean achievement. We also get to see players develop over a period of time, rather than simply and constantly bringing in expensive mercenaries, and a style of play (often) that Manure and West Ham fans - for all their traditional claims to adventurous style football - would give anything to have. All this while achieving results that 80% of the league would love to get.

Wenger has never been a tactician per se - and so while I can understand the criticism of our performances in certain games, the emphasis on this, particularly this season seems wide of the point.

But I can also understand the frustration that has led to this polarised state of affairs. The risk-taking with players; rigid and sometimes contrary approach to transfers; and apparent refusal to tailor his teams' approach to different opponents, combined with the flaky mindset that his approach seems to breed in often rudderless players breeds resentment because the mistakes seem so obvious, and we are left with the impression that with moderate attention to glaring shortcomings, our team, and our success, could be so much more.

This is particularly the case this season, when many of the traditional barriers to league success are not there...

Another victory and good draw as we move towards another double in the Wenger era.

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...we are left with the impression that with moderate attention to glaring shortcomings, our team, and our success, could be so much more.

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Precisely that. The routine stuff that other managers consider to be the very basics.

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Originally Posted by Bumble

Another victory and good draw as we move towards another double in the Wenger era.

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:lol:

It's ON!

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Originally Posted by Letters

:lol:

It's ON!

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it sounds crazy but we are the stable club, city, united and Chelsea will all have new managers next season. I think City have one eye on the CL as they aren't playing Barca for once. United will struggle to get into the top 4 let alone maintain a title charge. Leicester next 3 games home to Liverpool, away to City and away to us. think that should really sort out where they will finish.

We can do it. Bring it on!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Letters

I agree, but the level of criticism on here is based on the unravelling having already happened this season. I agree there have been some worrying wobbles of late but you get those, while we're in touch I'll believe we have a chance. I've spent all season being WUMmed for suggesting that maybe we should actually wait to see what happens before over-reacting, I really don't think it's such an unreasonable position. Meh.

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You're referring to a few individuals that you'll have a daily spat with about Wenger. There aren't that many posters on here to even talk about levels or to really gauge anything. It's really not that bad but may seem that way if you keep regurgitating the same points and arguments. Every thread. Every post.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

It's really not that bad but may seem that way if you keep regurgitating the same points and arguments. Every thread. Every post.

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As do they, but you never pick them up on it.
Ever.
:good:

Nobody criticises Alexis, nobody criticises Cech. Two guys giving 100% and delivering up the goods, week in, week out. If you want praise then that's how to get it. If you want criticism then do the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Letters

As do they, but you never pick them up on it.
Ever.
:good:

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Because you're the one with a problem and always seem baffled by how people feel about the manager even after lengthy posts from regular posters and the not so regular. But somehow every point put forward eludes you and you're back asking the same question, sparking the debates.

I've made lengthy posts too. It's points in those which seems to elude others...

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Originally Posted by Letters

I've made lengthy posts too. It's points in those which seems to elude others...

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I can't speak for everyone, but I think it's a case of people disagreeing with you. But after all the dialogue, back and forth with several different posters, you still seem just as confused as if you've never had the conversation before.

What's the matter with you?

And I disagree with them.
The difference is I try to engage with their arguments.
They don't, they just report to abuse, lazy straw man arguments completely misrepresenting my views or WUMming.

What's the matter with them :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

I can't speak for everyone, but I think it's a case of people disagreeing with you. But after all the dialogue, back and forth with several different posters, you still seem just as confused as if you've never had the conversation before.

What's the matter with you?

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In essence, nothing's wrong with Letters' opinion. He sees progress, and is content to keep waiting for evidence of this. This approach implies faith in what the manager is doing. Many others have lost faith, but these are subjective opinions, and both stances are legitimate. What has happened is that Letters has become a bit evangelical in taking on posters whose view frustrates him. I reckon.

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Originally Posted by Letters

And I disagree with them.
The difference is I try to engage with their arguments.
They don't, they just report to abuse, lazy straw man arguments completely misrepresenting my views or WUMming.

What's the matter with them :shrug:

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:haha:

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Originally Posted by IBK

What has happened is that Letters has become a bit evangelical in taking on posters whose view frustrates him.

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Testify!

:d

Tbh, I don't think I've ever said I'm confident of progress, more that I've seen a few rays of hope.
But I've always said I'll judge Wenger at the end of this season. Is that so very unreasonable?
I don't care about the last 10 years, what I care about is what happens this season. If we fall away then yes, Wenger Out. We've got a squad good enough to compete - not good enough to be running away with the league and some seem to think we should be, but we should be challenging. So far, despite a few wobbles, we are. So far I think this season is going OK. Could be going better, could certainly be going a lot worse.

I am somewhat frustrated by the level of criticism Wenger gets given how the season has gone so far. If we were mid-table and had crashed out of the cups I'd understand it. As it is, I think it's massively over the top. If we balls up the next couple of games and start to drop out of the race then I'll think the criticism is more valid. But at least wait till it happens!

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

:haha:

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...I'll just leave this here. :tiphat:

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

No, you're not guessing. What you're actually doing is sucking cock.

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Originally Posted by IBK

In essence, nothing's wrong with Letters' opinion. He sees progress, and is content to keep waiting for evidence of this. This approach implies faith in what the manager is doing. Many others have lost faith, but these are subjective opinions, and both stances are legitimate. What has happened is that Letters has become a bit evangelical in taking on posters whose view frustrates him. I reckon.

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We all have opinions and we're all entitled to them. Our opinions are cheap because nothing is hanging on them other than traffic levels at GW. Thing is, our opinions are mostly focused around a guy whose opinions don't come cheaply at all. On the back of his opinions come decisions and on the back of those come results, or the lack of them. In my opinion I think his opinions, decisions and results stink.

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Originally Posted by Letters

...I'll just leave this here. :tiphat:

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nom nom nom...

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Originally Posted by IBK

In essence, nothing's wrong with Letters' opinion. He sees progress, and is content to keep waiting for evidence of this. This approach implies faith in what the manager is doing. Many others have lost faith, but these are subjective opinions, and both stances are legitimate. What has happened is that Letters has become a bit evangelical in taking on posters whose view frustrates him. I reckon.

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The difference in opinion is fine and makes for a debate. But yes, it's boarding on evangelism.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Our opinions are cheap because nothing is hanging on them other than traffic levels at GW.

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:lol:

Now that I can agree with.

Ty has been missing since the match against the chavs. Wonder if he was finally raptured up to Wenger's office.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Ty has been missing since the match against the chavs. Wonder if he was finally raptured up to Wenger's office.

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Claude's probably chocked and headbutted the shit out of him and then buried the body.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

We all have opinions and we're all entitled to them. Our opinions are cheap because nothing is hanging on them other than traffic levels at GW. Thing is, our opinions are mostly focused around a guy whose opinions don't come cheaply at all. On the back of his opinions come decisions and on the back of those come results, or the lack of them. In my opinion I think his opinions, decisions and results stink.

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I think you've got me wrong. I'm pretty cool with whatever anyone has to say - and I like people showing passion - either way. Tit for tat between posters, not so much...

You're preaching to the converted when it comes to Wenger's opinions, though - messianistic and myopic, some of them.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

In my opinion I think his opinions, decisions and results stink.

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I was wondering where you stood on all this. You're usually quite reserved with your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Claude's probably chocked and headbutted the shit out of him and then buried the body.

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Not again :doh:

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Originally Posted by IBK

I think you've got me wrong. I'm pretty cool with whatever anyone has to say - and I like people showing passion - either way. Tit for tat between posters, not so much...

You're preaching to the converted when it comes to Wenger's opinions, though - messianistic and myopic, some of them.

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I knew what you were saying, but wanted to point out that some opinions cause genuine grief, whereas us lot here - not so much.

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Originally Posted by Kano

I was wondering where you stood on all this. You're usually quite reserved with your opinion.

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I'm getting counselling for my shyness.

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Originally Posted by Kano

At the start of the season, looking at our squad, Wenger's mistakes in not getting another striker and good back up or more for Coquelin and looking at the 'traditional strengths' of our rivals, putting in a decent challenge was enough.

But it's become apparent that this is our best chance in ages to win the damn thing. I don't buy the idea that we should be walking it - that rarely ever happens in this league anyway - but compared to those around us, we have enough to win it. Both the players and the manager have a responsibility to make that happen.

I don't think much will change next season either, teams will continue to play on the counter, press hard, win away from home a lot more and generally make life harder for the traditionally big teams. So our chances won't be restricted to this season only but that's no excuse not to capitalise on the chance available now.

And if not, Wenger out? I'm not sure what that even means in real terms outside of showing frustration on the Internet or the pub. Unless there is palpable, continuous anger shown toward the manager from the terraces, then he won't leave until the board says so.

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Agreed.

We just have to hope that the Board gets sick of making money hand over fist.