Match Reaction vs Everton (away).

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Originally Posted by Vieira

Did we actually hit 5 past everton :faint:

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We've got an average squad and an awful manager so I doubt it.
If we had a genius like Klopp in charge we'd be doing much better, which is why they're so far ahead of us.

Everton lacked cojones

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Originally Posted by Letters

We've got an average squad and an awful manager so I doubt it.
If we had a genius like Klopp in charge we'd be doing much better, which is why they're so far ahead of us.

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If Klopp can't challenge for a title he'll be out, and he won't get a decade to get things right. So let's not pretend Wenger and Klopp can be compared. Klopp might fail, Wenger already has. Klopp might succeed, Wenger has no chance. Wenger can only ever be defended by looking at each of his fucked-up seasons in isolation. String them together and you see what an epic failure and a laughing stock the bloke is. Far bigger a fool than Klopp, or just about any other manager, could be.

How useless was cech today:lol:

Guy has been a disappointment. Also would be nice for him to dive the right way during a penalty before he leaves us.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

If Klopp can't challenge for a title he'll be out, and he won't get a decade to get things right. So let's not pretend Wenger and Klopp can be compared. Klopp might fail, Wenger already has. Klopp might succeed, Wenger has no chance. Wenger can only ever be defended by looking at each of his fucked-up seasons in isolation. String them together and you see what an epic failure and a laughing stock the bloke is. Far bigger a fool than Klopp, or just about any other manager, could be.

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If Wenger was in charge of liverpool they'd finish 10th. If klopp was here we'd win the league.

Wow you're dumb.

I don't expect basic, unsophisticated people with inferior intelligence to understand.

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Originally Posted by Letters

We've got an average squad and an awful manager so I doubt it.
If we had a genius like Klopp in charge we'd be doing much better, which is why they're so far ahead of us.

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Give it a rest will you, Everton are absolute rubbish this season, everyone is beating them, if you think this is some sort of proof we're not average you're sadly deluded, 3 of our goals came when they were down to 10 men on top of that.

We won yesterday, but considering how Everton have been doing it's no gret surprise, results this season have not been great overall, neither have performances.

gret win. enjoyed that.

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Originally Posted by GP

gret win. enjoyed that.

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Me too. Shame not all Arsenal "fans" did.

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Originally Posted by Vieira

If Wenger was in charge of liverpool they'd finish 10th. If klopp was here we'd win the league.

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Can't argue with scientific "facts" like that :good:

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Originally Posted by Özim

Give it a rest will you, Everton are absolute rubbish this season, everyone is beating them, if you think this is some sort of proof we're not average you're sadly deluded.

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You are correct, for once. It isn't. How we did the last 3 seasons is proof of that :good:

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

You're putting spite and politics ahead of football and what's needed for a performance. It boils down to how much more bullshit performances you can stomach from the midfield.

It's a catch 22. Why should the club play him if he hasn't signed a contract? Because Wenger should live by what he preaches. Wenger says a player should be committed regardless of the contract situation. It works both ways. For this one last season we need to put our best foot forward.

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I agree and I think based on yesterday's performances from them Wenger should take the hit and keep both of them until the summer and then lose them both on a free.

Make no mistake, without those two performing at the level they did yesterday we are a very average side, Iwobi and Welbeck are no replacements for these guys, if we want to replace them properly then it's going to take big money, no "projects" or "internal solutions".

I accept that this performance was against a woeful Everton team but Sanchez and to a lesser extent Ozil have proved what they are capable of when they up their game.

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Originally Posted by Letters

You are correct, for once. It isn't. How we did the last 3 seasons is proof of that :good:

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Quite the opposite, we've been awful in the last 3 seasons, so it doesn't prove that at all.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Quite the opposite, we've been awful in the last 3 seasons, so it doesn't prove that at all.

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3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup.

Average :bow:
Awful manager :bow:

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Originally Posted by Letters

Average :bow:
Awful manager :bow:

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What you fail to add in is any context, in none of those seasons have we been anywhere near the title, in addition other teams imploding were more of a factor than our great performances for us to end up in those positions.

So you're spot on with the comment about our mediocrity.

There doesn't have to be any context. In terms of the PL we have not been average, if you understand what average actually means.
Over the course of a season you pretty much end up where you deserve. The season we finished 2nd was because of Spurs' amusing capitulation. So fine, let's say we really should have finished 3rd. That still isn't average.

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Originally Posted by Letters

There doesn't have to be any context. In terms of the PL we have not been average, if you understand what average actually means.
Over the course of a season you pretty much end up where you deserve. The season we finished 2nd was because of Spurs' amusing capitulation. So fine, let's say we really should have finished 3rd. That still isn't average.

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We had a poor season that year Letters, you can dress it up anyway you like but we capitulated after Christmas. The fact that all of our traditional rivals were all in crisis made it even worse, we had little to no pressure that season and the league was there for the taking. We stuffed it big time, we were top going into the New Year too.

What made it worse was we were a distant 2nd, it was digusting.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Me too. Shame not all Arsenal "fans" did.

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Uh oh - check this out. Letters is doing a Wenger.

Well let me clear it up for you Arsene.

Great win, loved it. Entertaining, some great goals, enjoyed it.

Now get the fuck out of our club you cunt! Because 3 games a season that are worth the watch is not good enough for a club like Arsenal. Any "real" fan, as opposed to money-grubbing, seat-hugging cunt, would know that.

And why did you sub Lacazette?

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Originally Posted by selassie

We had a poor season that year Letters, you can dress it up anyway you like but we capitulated after Christmas. The fact that all of our traditional rivals were all in crisis made it even worse, we had little to no pressure that season and the league was there for the taking. We stuffed it big time, we were top going into the New Year too.

What made it worse was we were a distant 2nd, it was digusting.

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Agreed on all counts. But if we had an "average" squad and an "awful" manager, as Zim maintains, then we wouldn't be finishing anywhere near the top 4.

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Originally Posted by selassie

I agree and I think based on yesterday's performances from them Wenger should take the hit and keep both of them until the summer and then lose them both on a free.

Make no mistake, without those two performing at the level they did yesterday we are a very average side, Iwobi and Welbeck are no replacements for these guys, if we want to replace them properly then it's going to take big money, no "projects" or "internal solutions".

I accept that this performance was against a woeful Everton team but Sanchez and to a lesser extent Ozil have proved what they are capable of when they up their game.

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Everyone is saying Everton were woeful, didn't look up for it, were a mess tactically, were second best at everything. It's odd, because that's usually us. Worse than average. But you'd never know it to listen to the Wenger brigade this morning. Arsene FC, Founded 22 Oct 2017. If only they could reset Ozil's and Alexis' contracts in the same way they reset the clock on Wenger's history. BUT, mathematically, based on where we collapse to every season, we are above average. Nice one Wenger!

Meanwhile, our internal solution is gearing up to part the Red Sea. Jack's back! The man to lead us to the promised land. Fans are buying this, almost like they were born yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Letters

3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup.

Average :bow:
Awful manager :bow:

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Bloody awful manager. As we saw again yesterday.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Agreed on all counts. But if we had an "average" squad and an "awful" manager, as Zim maintains, then we wouldn't be finishing anywhere near the top 4.

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I'm not going to get involved with yours and Zim's personal beef...but I do see where you are both coming from and I'm not sitting on the fence either! :lol:

We have an above average squad/team and Wenger in the grand scheme of things is an above average manager but IMO we should be aiming a lot higher both in terms of the quality of our manager and the make up of our team. We all know this. We know what we are going to get from both the manager and team and given our resources our performances are average. We should be challenging for the title every single season, there is no two ways about it.

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Originally Posted by selassie

We have an above average squad/team and Wenger in the grand scheme of things is an above average manager but IMO we should be aiming a lot higher both in terms of the quality of our manager and the make up of our team. We all know this. We know what we are going to get from both the manager and team and given our resources our performances are average. We should be challenging for the title every single season, there is no two ways about it.

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Agreed. And that is a more sensible viewpoint than Zim's nonsense hyperbole.
We SHOULD be challenging for the title every year although it's worth remembering that it's only Wenger's time with us which has created that expectation level - read Fever Pitch for more details.
This is the Wenger Paradox as I will keep calling it till it catches on. He is the reason we have this expectation level to challenge for titles and also the reason we don't.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Bloody awful manager. As we saw again yesterday.

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Yeah. I wish we had a genius like Klopp :(

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Originally Posted by Letters

Agreed on all counts. But if we had an "average" squad and an "awful" manager, as Zim maintains, then we wouldn't be finishing anywhere near the top 4.

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The manager is awful, dress it up anyway you like but there's a reason we are where we are and that we have regressed despite the huge resources, stability that no other club has had and all the resources to succeed, his decisions, his tactics, his signings, his failure to accept the important of leadership, the fact he plays players in the wrong positions, doesn't allow proper coaching, make poor subsitutions and picks inappropriate lineups, his failure to deal with contracts and the list goes on.

Not the suqads fault it's not all that great, it's the managers insistence on not wanting to do the logical thing like most other manager does. Other managers take risks, this can mean you end up higher up one seasona and lower the next, Wenger changes next to nothing, so this allows him to maintain a similar level but not for us to progress.

He's averse to risk and this creates stability, but for the fans he delivers some of the worst entertainment pound for pound. I'd take coming 8th in a season if it meant we went into a new season with unpredictablity and hope it could be different or perhaps that we might have an exciting sumer chasing and signing some decent players, or even if it meant we produced some glorious performances where we wipe the floor with the opposition, rather than this almost constant level where games are broing 99% of the time and performances produced are the bare minimum to get a result.

Yes we in games, but most of the time there's very little pleasure to be had from these wins because in the end we're unconvincing and deliver a substandard experience. The self proclaimed entertainer has forgotten what entertainment actually is but still thinks he delivers it by the bucketful, it's frankly embarassing, as is the way he just sweeps regular humiliations under the carpet like they never happened.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Agreed. And that is a more sensible viewpoint than Zim's nonsense hyperbole.
We SHOULD be challenging for the title every year although it's worth remembering that it's only Wenger's time with us which has created that expectation level - read Fever Pitch for more details.
This is the Wenger Paradox as I will keep calling it till it catches on. He is the reason we have this expectation level to challenge for titles and also the reason we don't.

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No Wenger's time with us has us expecting to come 4th and crash out of the CL at the last 16 every year, absolutely noone expects us to win those things. We use to win more before he arrived in fact.

What has made our expectations higher is the prices of tickets, the fact we built a new stadium and were promised a world class team to compete with the best. Wenger neither invested his own money nor raised our expectations, the amount of money we charge and have did, historically we're one of the biggest clubs in England and logically that means people expect success, just like they did at Man U before the won the title in the 90s.

You love to hype up Wenger, but he's really not the reason at all, the guy is getting a huge salary from what he's doing, which is also something he enjoys, he's not some selfless saint who we should bow to, the guy has done very well out of this and it's suited him to stay in the job, he doesn't care what the fans say or think in the slightest and if anything tries to dampen expectations by saying coming 4th is a good season.

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Originally Posted by Özim

What you fail to add in is any context, in none of those seasons have we been anywhere near the title, in addition other teams imploding were more of a factor than our great performances for us to end up in those positions.

So you're spot on with the comment about our mediocrity.

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God knows why you entertain this conversation. :lol: Letters is lost.

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

God knows why you entertain this conversation. :lol: Letters is lost.

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You make a good point :lol:

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Everyone is saying Everton were woeful, didn't look up for it, were a mess tactically, were second best at everything. It's odd, because that's usually us. Worse than average. But you'd never know it to listen to the Wenger brigade this morning. Arsene FC, Founded 22 Oct 2017. If only they could reset Ozil's and Alexis' contracts in the same way they reset the clock on Wenger's history. BUT, mathematically, based on where we collapse to every season, we are above average. Nice one Wenger!

Meanwhile, our internal solution is gearing up to part the Red Sea. Jack's back! The man to lead us to the promised land. Fans are buying this, almost like they were born yesterday.

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:lol:

You know my thoughts on Wenger and his mismanagement of the team over the past what 5 or 6 seasons.

I won't him gone and I want the slate wiped clean!

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Originally Posted by Letters

Agreed. And that is a more sensible viewpoint than Zim's nonsense hyperbole.
We SHOULD be challenging for the title every year although it's worth remembering that it's only Wenger's time with us which has created that expectation level - read Fever Pitch for more details.
This is the Wenger Paradox as I will keep calling it till it catches on. He is the reason we have this expectation level to challenge for titles and also the reason we don't.

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Well nobody other than Wenger is holding back the team or lowering the expectation levels, he is the PROBLEM and he created the PROBLEM. It's One step forward Two steps back with him.

It's not really about what words we use, the facts are there for us all to see.

This whole new era/change when we bought Ozil or Sanchez has been flushed down the drain, we have to start it all over again this January/Summer except we are in a much worse position than we were before as the competition is now very fierce both in terms of the quality of Managers we are facing and the quality of teams we are facing.

Wenger is done, he's out of his depth now, he can't and won't fix this team.

He doesn't even deserve this season, what is he going to do that is any different? He makes a mess of player recruitment, ignores deficiencies in the team and fails to adapt to what is required of a team to challenge in modern day PL. He's useless to us.

2 of our stars of yesterday will be off next summer, so it's not even like these results matter that much, as Selassie we're starting again next summer, not building towards anything, just looking forward to losing to of our biggest signings for nothing, most probably without signing adequate replacements.

Thank you so much Wenger for raising our expectations, what would we do without you?

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

God knows why you entertain this conversation. :lol: Letters is lost.

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Ooh! Ooh! Can I do the PnG trick?
Sorry, you obviously aren't smart enough to understand my position.
Hey, you're right, this IS fun!
:d

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Originally Posted by Özim

The manager is awful, dress it up anyway you like but there's a reason we are where we are and that we have regressed despite the huge resources, stability that no other club has had and all the resources to succeed, his decisions, his tactics, his signings, his failure to accept the important of leadership, the fact he plays players in the wrong positions, doesn't allow proper coaching, make poor subsitutions and picks inappropriate lineups, his failure to deal with contracts and the list goes on.

Not the suqads fault it's not all that great, it's the managers insistence on not wanting to do the logical thing like most other manager does. Other managers take risks, this can mean you end up higher up one seasona and lower the next, Wenger changes next to nothing, so this allows him to maintain a similar level but not for us to progress.

He's averse to risk and this creates stability, but for the fans he delivers some of the worst entertainment pound for pound. I'd take coming 8th in a season if it meant we went into a new season with unpredictablity and hope it could be different or perhaps that we might have an exciting sumer chasing and signing some decent players, or even if it meant we produced some glorious performances where we wipe the floor with the opposition, rather than this almost constant level where games are broing 99% of the time and performances produced are the bare minimum to get a result.

Yes we in games, but most of the time there's very little pleasure to be had from these wins because in the end we're unconvincing and deliver a substandard experience. The self proclaimed entertainer has forgotten what entertainment actually is but still thinks he delivers it by the bucketful, it's frankly embarassing, as is the way he just sweeps regular humiliations under the carpet like they never happened.

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Actually agree with a lot of that, but he is an above average manager with an above average squad, compared with the rest of the PL. Results have shown that, let's not go overboard.
The issue is he's not good enough to get us challenging for the biggest prizes. The expectation level and the resources to do so are down to Wenger so he deserves some credit for that.
But if we're going to seriously compete again then he need a better manager, clearly. But do you trust this board to pick one?
While Kronke is around I don't see much hope for the future, to be honest.

People are going to react with cynicism whenever Wenger is defended, even mildly, because his position is indefensible now. Stand back and look at the state this club is in. He swore he'd never do damage to this club, that he'd leave if he couldn't progress things. But all along he was talking about the finances (which he dressed up by using the word culture, the culture at Arsenal) when the fans assumed he was talking about the team and success on the pitch. They assumed that because Ivan the Lizard came right out and said it. He promised investment on the pitch that was fit for the new stadium, he anticipated competition with that team that keeps thrashing us 10-2. These people don't have a leg to stand on. They are spectacular failures by their own standards, let alone ours. It is totally unreasonable to defend them. Either they are liars or they are so incompetent it beggars belief. FA Cup wins with a 9 figure squad does not hide these facts. Wigan can win that cup but when was the last time you saw Wigan competing for a title. That helps you understand the gulf between an FA Cup and the titles a club the size of Arsenal should be competing for. They are out of excuses, or so you would think, and most certainly fans shouldn't be making excuses on their behalf.

It's a fucking joke this Wenger bloke got another contract and a huge pay rise. A disgrace that can't be excused by any means. He's not a good manager, or even and above average manager, and whether Klopp wins the title or gets relegated is neither here nor there. Klopp can't be used as an excuse for Wenger. When the charlatans at our place were hiking the prices to world record levels they weren't talking about scrabbling around the minor places competing with Liverpool, so let's throw that lame excuse out and leave it out. That said, I'm pretty damn sure it wouldn't have taken Klopp 9 games to figure out it's smart to pick your best players and play them in the correct positions. I hope nobody is planning on giving Wenger an ounce of credit for yesterday. A first time FIFA gamer would be able to figure out what Wenger has just stumbled on, so why should the idiot get credit for being 9 games late to the obvious?

Above average nothing. I could be above average at anything if you stuck enough resources at my disposal. Doesn't mean I wouldn't mismanage the fuck out of them, as Wenger has done.

No excuses for the bloke. He's a selfish turd. A remarkable turd. Well above average in every turdish way you could think of. Stinking out the place. And it's time for him to fuck right off.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

People are going to react with cynicism whenever Wenger is defended, even mildly, because his position is indefensible now. Stand back and look at the state this club is in. He swore he'd never do damage to this club, that he'd leave if he couldn't progress things. But all along he was talking about the finances (which he dressed up by using the word culture, the culture at Arsenal) when the fans assumed he was talking about the team and success on the pitch. They assumed that because Ivan the Lizard came right out and said it. He promised investment on the pitch that was fit for the new stadium, he anticipated competition with that team that keeps thrashing us 10-2. These people don't have a leg to stand on. They are spectacular failures by their own standards, let alone ours. It is totally unreasonable to defend them. Either they are liars or they are so incompetent it beggars belief. FA Cup wins with a 9 figure squad does not hide these facts. Wigan can win that cup but when was the last time you saw Wigan competing for a title. That helps you understand the gulf between an FA Cup and the titles a club the size of Arsenal should be competing for. They are out of excuses, or so you would think, and most certainly fans shouldn't be making excuses on their behalf.

It's a fucking joke this Wenger bloke got another contract and a huge pay rise. A disgrace that can't be excused by any means. He's not a good manager, or even and above average manager, and whether Klopp wins the title or gets relegated is neither here nor there. Klopp can't be used as an excuse for Wenger. When the charlatans at our place were hiking the prices to world record levels they weren't talking about scrabbling around the minor places competing with Liverpool, so let's throw that lame excuse out and leave it out. That said, I'm pretty damn sure it wouldn't have taken Klopp 9 games to figure out it's smart to pick your best players and play them in the correct positions. I hope nobody is planning on giving Wenger an ounce of credit for yesterday. A first time FIFA gamer would be able to figure out what Wenger has just stumbled on, so why should the idiot get credit for being 9 games late to the obvious?

Above average nothing. I could be above average at anything if you stuck enough resources at my disposal. Doesn't mean I wouldn't mismanage the fuck out of them, as Wenger has done.

No excuses for the bloke. He's a selfish turd. A remarkable turd. Well above average in every turdish way you could think of. Stinking out the place. And it's time for him to fuck right off.

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:gp:

Career club assists...
- Ozil: 198
- Bergkamp, Scholes and Zidane combined: 189
But Özil "goes missing"

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

People are going to react with cynicism whenever Wenger is defended, even mildly, because his position is indefensible now. Stand back and look at the state this club is in. He swore he'd never do damage to this club, that he'd leave if he couldn't progress things. But all along he was talking about the finances (which he dressed up by using the word culture, the culture at Arsenal) when the fans assumed he was talking about the team and success on the pitch. They assumed that because Ivan the Lizard came right out and said it. He promised investment on the pitch that was fit for the new stadium, he anticipated competition with that team that keeps thrashing us 10-2. These people don't have a leg to stand on. They are spectacular failures by their own standards, let alone ours. It is totally unreasonable to defend them. Either they are liars or they are so incompetent it beggars belief. FA Cup wins with a 9 figure squad does not hide these facts. Wigan can win that cup but when was the last time you saw Wigan competing for a title. That helps you understand the gulf between an FA Cup and the titles a club the size of Arsenal should be competing for. They are out of excuses, or so you would think, and most certainly fans shouldn't be making excuses on their behalf.

It's a fucking joke this Wenger bloke got another contract and a huge pay rise. A disgrace that can't be excused by any means. He's not a good manager, or even and above average manager, and whether Klopp wins the title or gets relegated is neither here nor there. Klopp can't be used as an excuse for Wenger. When the charlatans at our place were hiking the prices to world record levels they weren't talking about scrabbling around the minor places competing with Liverpool, so let's throw that lame excuse out and leave it out. That said, I'm pretty damn sure it wouldn't have taken Klopp 9 games to figure out it's smart to pick your best players and play them in the correct positions. I hope nobody is planning on giving Wenger an ounce of credit for yesterday. A first time FIFA gamer would be able to figure out what Wenger has just stumbled on, so why should the idiot get credit for being 9 games late to the obvious?

Above average nothing. I could be above average at anything if you stuck enough resources at my disposal. Doesn't mean I wouldn't mismanage the fuck out of them, as Wenger has done.

No excuses for the bloke. He's a selfish turd. A remarkable turd. Well above average in every turdish way you could think of. Stinking out the place. And it's time for him to fuck right off.

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Great post, agree with it all.

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Originally Posted by AFC Leveller

Career club assists...
- Ozil: 198
- Bergkamp, Scholes and Zidane combined: 189
But Özil "goes missing"

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Posting that really illustrates the problem with stats, I'm a fan of Ozil and think he is top quality in the right team (not as a player who has to pull you out of a hole but as an addition to an already very good squad to make it even better), but if you're going to be comparing them to the players you have saying he has more assists it will really just point out how they are useless in isolation.

Bergkamp was an amazing footballer that offered so much to the team on top of assists, Scholes is widely recognised as one of Man U's best ever players and one of the best in the PL and Zidane was one of the worlds best ever footballers with his flair and ability to produce the sublime, Ozil is not in the same league.

Koeman has been sacked.