Yeah, if were half as good as sorting out problems as we are at finding excuses, we'd be world beaters. But as it's easier to blame circumstances and everything else, we're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
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Yeah, if were half as good as sorting out problems as we are at finding excuses, we'd be world beaters. But as it's easier to blame circumstances and everything else, we're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
As LDG said, you can see what's wrong down on the pitch and it's having a knock on effect with the players. They don't have the confidence, they're frustrated, lack guidance, lack leadership but our manager has a firm belief in his philosophy and nobody can tell him other wise. If you look at the team, read the quotes from some players, compare us to Championship winning teams and you can see what needs changing. How we go about it is a different matter and their are probably many solutions to our problems but we're going down the same path every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner
- We don't have a world class keeper. We shouldn't have to depend on Szczesny and Fabianski.
- Our defence is too young. We don't have a single CB with solid premiership experience. Such CB's will make mistakes. Throw an inexperienced goalkeeper in the mix along with wingbacks that like to bomb forwards and you've got exposed defence ready for the taking.
- We can't defend set pieces. Corners and free kick crosses are always a danger for us. With such a young defence, they have no idea how to organise a defence so that's not surprising.
- We're no good at scoring from set pieces or crosses. We've seen Clichy and Sagna's poor attempts and the amount of times the box is empty when a good ball is eventually delivered. If we can't deliver a decent cross, then how are our defenders supposed to learn how to defend against such threats in training?
- We've got a load of players playing outside of their natural position. Gibbs is not a left back, Arshavin is not a winger, same goes for Nasri and Rosicky. They're more like central attacking midfielders. Cesc is a central midfield player and not an attacking midfield type player suited to play in the hole. Nobody would play Xavi, Xabi Alonso or Pirlo further up field to link up with the striker like Gerrard used to do with Torres.
- Walcott isn't a right winger. He's not great with the ball at his feet. Has no tricks, just pace but he's had to work damn hard at learning that role.
- Bendter is not a winger.
- We're too one dimensional. We stick to short passing, always play ball to feet and never try to exploit space. When teams sit deep it's difficult, but our counter attacks are none existent these day. We take our time getting up the field.
- Tactically, Wenger is pretty poor. When looking for a goal, he just throws on more attacking players without actually changing formation or approach to our attack. It's just more of the same. If an opposing wingback is on a yellow card, we won't focus our attacks on that weak side. You'll hardly see Theo swap flanks to go down the left to trouble one of their defenders.....etc.
With these sort of problems, players lose confidence. What we do to sort it is a different matter. Change players, change manager, change coaching staff....I'm open to whatever as long as I see a change somewhere in our approach.
my opinion is, im not sure.
Yes. We lack a little bit sharpness.
It's difficult to say. You could make the argument that he doesn't know what he's doing or what's going wrong. 6 trophy-less years provide evidence and the fact that he doesn't get the players, or play the system or manages the game like we think he should at times can be used to support this.
But.
He loves the club although this may be due to the fact that he has a free reign to do as he pleases and to try to play the style of football he appreciates.
We don't know the extent to which his embargo on buying the players who might make the difference is board-imposed or self-imposed. He gets alot of stick for the 'youth project' but when considering the financial reality of football today, it would appear to be a sound and long-sighted strategy (and one which may, in theory, pay dividends when fair play rules come in). You can hardly blame a manager for sticking with young players and players who just haven't broken through when the funding isn't there to buy other players. Maybe it's all his hare-brained idea or maybe he's playing the hand he's been dealt the best he can.
He's managed to build a side which is in the top 4 year in and year out although spending minimally on new players. When you do that, you're a prisoner to a greater or lesser extent to one or two personality issues. If you can't cycle players in and out like Man city or chelsea, one or two losers in the side can drag the rest down.
He's been managing football for a long time, has been an innovator in his day and it's hard to believe he's only of average understanding. He's a perceptive and studious man and it would be hard to believe he doesn't understand the issues at hand. But understanding and fixing, or being able to easily fix, are two different things.
Much of what he says in interviews, which enrage many fans and lead them to suspect he's an ignoramous, aren't meant for us. Rather the statements he makes are meant for his team and for other teams vis-a-vis the transfer market.
Personally, I believe he understands the problems but has a commitment to a style of play, is limited in terms of financial wherewithal and says only what he feels has the best impact on his team or what will help him get a better price in transfer negotiations.
It's not a case of preference, but more of winning football. As Marc Overmars mentioned before, Wenger's best teams were built on a solid 'British mentality' base, and then added to with continental football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner
Wenger's current team have all the continental aspects, but none of the traditional british ones (Strength, stamina, determination). We lack a Tony Adams like figure in the team to address these issues on the pitch.
It's the English Premier League, we should focus on building a team to succeed in this environment. Instead of complaining that the other 19 teams in our league should play more 'Beautiful' football.
This is the basic fault of Wenger. He wants everybody else in Football to adopt his approach (rather than a more pragmatic - if you cant beat them, then join them attitude).
It's Wengers main character flaw and it is preventing him from making the required changes. Thats why he has to go. Now.
:haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wengerbabies
All you hear from him these days is how we play the right way and we do the right things and financially we are sensible etc etc..., he's become a bit of a preacher trying to convince everyone it's all OK because our way is the only way.
When teams don't play the way he believes they should, he complains and rather than thinking about it and maybe realising that they're not going to change and we have to, he ignores everything he see's and continues to follow the same path.
At what point does someone look at something and say i've tried but it doesn't work let's try something different, by now most people would have but it seems to me he simply won't.
He goes on about doing things the right way and then ignores the fact the fans are treated very poorly and with very little respect, yet they're the ones who have made the financial side viable in the 1st place, double standards if you ask me.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
This
You all sound like Chelsea fans tbf. :yawn:
He goes on about doing things the right way and then ignores the fact the fans are treated very poorly and with very little respect, yet they're the ones who have made the financial side viable in the 1st place, double standards if you ask me.
So...it was the fans who turned the clubs fortunes round from being mid table shit kickers in winning stuff and being good??
Cool.
Of course it was the fans, and not the players and manager, who won the games and scored the goals. But it was the players and manager who let in the goals.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Obiwan Kenobinil
I think, when you hear the guy speak like he did for instance about Man Utd vs Barcelona then I find it very hard to believe he isn't someone who fails to understand what is happening. The fact he hasn't done a huge amount to rectify it though, is the baffling part.
@Toronto Gooner ;
No, they just part with their hard earned cash, seeing it frittered away on massive wage bills, on a team which Wenger refuses to correct the obvious.
TG, I know you like to look at the other perspective, but even you must admitt there are basic errors that need addressing. And given the fans patience in paying for the highest price ticket in the world....can you not afford them/us a little bit of anger at the way things have gone??
That's just it really. He is as intelligent as they come and has spoken several times about our defensive downfall, but we actually seem to get worse in this area rather than improve. After 5 years you think we'd be talking about something different now but we're not. We're not a million miles away but it feels like we are because there's nothing to suggest we can learn from the mistakes of the past. We can't seriously expect to succeed conceding around 40 goals a season.Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
a) I was referring the financial side which is primarily income from the fansQuote:
Originally Posted by Obiwan Kenobinil
b) We won stuff before Wenger let's get that clear, Graham won a number of trophies (Rioch moved us towards the top half of the table as well)
Anyway Wenger did amazingly in his first spell there's no debating that, but at this stage if the fans didn't pay those ridiculous prices Wenger wouldn't be able to do whatever it is he does. You've got to feel sorry for those guys, they're getting shortchanged big time.
What's worse is they get very little respect, it's like it or lump it.....they couldn't really care less if they're happy or not as long as there's money rolling in.....a sad state of affairs if you ask me.
Agreed the fans part with their hard earned cash to watch the team they support. But tell me how the fans have been "treated very poorly and with very little respect,"? Yes, the wage bill is high but I read a recent blog which stated that the wage bill includes all the backroom staff which other clubs apparently do not do. I cannot say whether this is true or not but it would put the bill into perspective if it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
As for the price of the ticket, I presume that you are referring to the cost of a season ticket. Yes, Arsenal's most expensive season ticket is very, very high but
(1) How many are there at that price? (compared to other clubs)
(2) Do the other clubs include tickets to cup matches like Arsenal? (I read that Man U does not)
(3) What is the average price of a season ticket?
(4) Arsenal's cheapest gameday ticket is cheaper that Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea, and only Ģ1 more expensive than Man U's.
Yes, the fans are right to feel let down but sometimes I think that the anger is a little OTT.
A quick comparison, the cheapest season ticket for the New York Giants (NFL) is US$85 (Ģ52) per game, with a personal seat license costing US$1,000.
Or put another way, the whole of sport is just crazy now.
I think he knows what's wrong as much as any fan does given his comments about our set-piece issues and weak mentality, he was trying to bring in that extra 2% with guys like Vermaelen and Koscielny (i.e. guys with a bit of determination) at the back and Chamakh up top (someone who's won titles, even if they're French, and has top level experience) but failed. Now he's going to try and bring it in again with changing up the squad and presumably bringing in more experience again, he needs to get it right as this'll be the 3rd straight year of failure imo and that needs to change.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
To be fair, I think Wenger knows what happens, and he knows it well. But somehow the guy has deep mixed emotions as to the best way to fix (at least the major) problems. For example, of all the "failed" young prospects, how many of them has he actually sold, instead of letting their contracts expire? What would happen if either Denilson or Bendtner didnīt express their desire to leave the club? He tends to stick with players (his not-to-disrupt-squad philosophy), even if he knows they wonīt contribute to the team as much as he had thought, and just sits (or loan) them until they fade away.
Or maybe he hasnīt got a clue after all. :unsure:
As always - a logical argument, but I'm not sure I reach quite the same conclusion. The team's defensive vulnerability - particularly to set pieces - could be seen by a child. I'm not sure I have seen any comments demonstrating his acknowledgment that we do not utilise our offensive set pieces properly. We sure as hell don't seem to train for them!Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Vela
AW may be looking to bring in players to try to solve the issue, but he's been trying that for 4 years and it hasn't worked. Look how many CB's he's been through (in itself not a good sign in the position where stability is needed most). I think your suggested solution almost justifies my question - because I am far from convinced that its an issue of personnel. I believe it to be an issue of having a proper defensive coach, and playing more effectively as a team when it comes to defend.
So I think my question still stands..
Arsene thinks he's building a family, not a team. He should be a foster parent not a football manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elreactor
So...then...you find it easy to believe he IS someone who fails to understand what's happening?Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
:unsure:
Yeah I noticed I had put isn't by accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fist of Lehmann
Exactly, thats the flaw of this project of his, he thought that the players would grow together and form some sort of "remember the titans" bond. Delusion in this day and age, especially when the majority of the players he brought in and were not coming up through the academy from a young age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
I don't think he does understand what's wrong (what is wrong btw?)
From my perspective we've been a lot luckier with injuries this season - in that points were not dropped due to players being out. The second half of the season, when we capitulated, we had Van Persie playing nearly every game. When Vermin was injured earlier on in the season, I remember doing just fine for a good while. Same for when Fab and Nas were out - we didn't miss them as we have missed our 'bigger' players in previous seasons. Walcott was definitely a bit of a blow, but as most people realise by now, it's not about the '1st choice' 11, but about the squad, and in my eyes we had the squad to cope.
My overriding point is this: YES some of our players aren't good enough, YES we had injuries (like always) - but I don't see how the connection between these two things, and being the best team in the country for the first half of the season, and falling to shit in the second.
So what is wrong then? It HAS to come down to 'mentality', ironically a word you would be hard pressed not to find in one of Wenger's post-match interviews or The Official Manager's Email
So our wage bill isn't that high because we include staff wages in the report. Why do that? Everyone is under the impression that we can't afford the wages of certain players because it's already high. If that's not the case then I'd say the board and Wenger are pulling a fast one. Since Henry, Dennis and co left, our wage bill must have gone down but we they perpetuate this notion of us being stretched at the seams and having to count every penat. Why include the staff wages in these reports?Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner
Bugger, could have sworn I'd already replied to this, see if I can remember what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasri Scoreng
I see the problem as being a lack of 'gamecraft' as much as anything else i.e. knowing when to sit a little deeper and defend like your life depended on it and knowing when to stream forwards, as well as a bit of a weakness on set-pieces. Experienced players tend to have better gamecraft than youngsters and this is the kind of mentality we need more of in our squad, more experience will help the mental side of the game imo. If we do that and spend some time on the training ground trying to learn how to defend a set-piece then we'll be set up nicely (although I'm more sceptical about us actually working on things in training personally...).
It's either the balance of the personnel is off (in terms of mentality, we've got the talent more or less covered) imo or else there really is a deeper rot in the club and the fact we get so close to winning trophies is something of a minor miracle. I think it's worth asking the question when we fail so emphatically at roughly the same point every season, it's not a coincidence and given that this failure is far worse than before as it was mostly our first 11 failing miserably so it will probably engender a bigger clearout in the summer. As you say, if we can't freshen it up with personnel then we're pretty screwed as there won't be sweeping changes in the style or training system.
Good points DV - but how do you explain that we had the requisite 'gamecraft' to arrive in March with our seaon very much intact, but then lost it thereafter?
When the mentality was right, but then wasn't, this to me would suggest that it is a question of fighting spirit or mentality. I accept that relevant experience may serve to help cope with pressure - but when you look at the fact that we had the ability to beat Manure in the middle of our disastrous run in (and I struggle to believe that that was solely down to the 'pressure' being off), to me you are looking at players who are treating the 'big games' differently from the so-called bankers. We saw this in the CC final - the beginning of the rot, and I feel that too many of our pampered players felt sorry for themselves/did not show up subsequently.
I am convinced that at least part of this problem is having mercenaries or pure 'professionals' of the type AW prefers, rather than players who realise what it means to play for the club; how much it means to the fans; a feeling of a common, rather than a purely selfish cause; an identity.
And while I agree with Letters that 'loyalty' is a thing of the past. Manure have shown season after season, that you can build the above attributes into your foreign contingent.
So we are back to my OP, and whether AW, with his background, really understands this (or has understood it up to this point). Because you can adopt a scientific; stats-based; professorial approach to the game and your signings - but the beauty of football is that passion; motivation; identity will make up the marging between winning and being an also ran.
PS Then again - if the rumours of Viera coming back in a coaching role turn out to be correct, maybe this penny has finally dropped for wenger.
wow dude...you made some good points there. seems like you have really thought dispassionately and objectively about the situation. sometimes it's hard for us fans to do so. i too would like to see paddy v back at the club although what exactly his role would be remains to be seen (is he coming to coach youngsters or help with the 1st team???)
Another point that I think has been missed, is that for all his experience, AW simply hasn't faced this situation before. A situation where his methods/vision hasn't worked and he is under unprecedented pressure to deliver to the expectations of a big club (even though those expectations may be his own, more than the board's).
Monaco and Grampus 8 would not have brought this pressure. Prior to 2005 he was (SAF excepted) top of the tree. Post 2005 he could, until now, have been excused by virtue of his need to re-build.
He is now exposed, and must be feeling disillusioned and perhaps nonplussed as to how a team on which he has lavished so much effort and belief, and that undoubtedly had the footballing ability to succeed, failed so spectacularly. For me, it really isn't difficult to imagine him on the shakiest ground that he has been on, in terms of his own understanding of how to address the team's problems. All managers can bring in players. The big question is what AW is capable of doing in other areas - and whether he truly knows what to do. Because this ain't happened to him before.
Fair point, I think it's something we need more of but if it was working at one point then it does suggest something just turns off in our players heads when the pressure is on rather than an all-round failure. Agree with the rest of what you said, although fwiw I think some of the younger guys have more of an idea of what it requires and what is expected, guys like Szczesny and Wilshere, with Lansbury maybe coming into the first team squad, how much that's worth when they're still only young I don't know though. I think it may have been something of an oversight from Wenger, he obviously understands the part that mentality takes in football so you'd think he'd know a little about the passion and drive although guys who are that driven about something often assume those around them are as driven without seeing the truth that it's not standard issue to everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasri Scoreng
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nasri Scoreng
He tried the same experiment with monaco after he won the ligue 1 with them. Suffice to say he was sacked when he turned them into a journeymans club like he's done with us. He soon found himself in the backwater of football management in the japanese league where david dein got him.
That bodes well, then!
Didnt want to start a new thread but i agree with Gallas.Quote:
Tottenham Hotspur defender William Gallas believes Arsene Wenger made a mistake in letting him leave Arsenal.
Gallashttp://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif departed Emirates Stadium for bitter rivals Spurs last summer after failing to agree a new contract with the Gunners.
And the 33-year-old demonstrated he can still cut it in the Premier League following a solid debut season at White Hart Lane.
Of his decision to part company with the Gunners, Gallas told L'Equipe: "I left Arsenalhttp://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif because we could not agree on a financial level.
"They decided to not make the effort to keep me, it is a choice I respect, and they respected the fact I didn't want the wages they proposed.
Wrong
"In the street, Arsenal's fans asked me why I left. The coach thought I was a finished player. I proved he was wrong."
Gallas endured a controversial time at Arsenal, in particular during his period as captain of the club.
Reflecting on his much-publicised clashes with a number of his former Gunners team-mates, he said: "When I was captain I wanted to give a message, but they didn't get it.
"I may have been clumsy, but the substance was right.
Ugly duckling
"I came from Chelseahttp://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif where I won titles, and I wanted to share my experience, because I thought we missed commitment in our work.
"My message has not been understood and I am also responsible for that. But unfortunately the last season showed that team still misses something.
"It is too easy to say all the Arsenal problems came from William Gallas."
Gallas also commented on his relationship with French compatriot Samir Nasri,http://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif the pair having fallen out after a dispute over France's Euro 2008 campaign.
He stated: "Samir Nasri? People tried to show me as an ugly duckling, but the images showed the contrary. Samir Nasri knows the problem. He can't lie to himself."
Wenger made a mistake letting him go. He played well for Spuds and hes better than all of our CBs
IMHO He's not better than Vermaelen, but I agree he's better than everybody else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ach
I think Kos or Djourou have some way to go before they get to his level.
Wengers Mistake was not replacing him/ not letting him go. Had we replaced with with a top notch CB Gallas would still be an after thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ach
Well we did buy 2 CBs last summerQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
They did well.....:lol: