Also.AMN with another of those Meh performances. That kid is going g to sneak.another 10 year career on us doi g essentially nothing but flattering to deceive
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Also.AMN with another of those Meh performances. That kid is going g to sneak.another 10 year career on us doi g essentially nothing but flattering to deceive
:good:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
There was a good interview with Joe Montemurro (manager of the women's team) earlier this year where he made the point that, before any coach can get players to buy into new ideas, you first have to give them an insurance policy: a safety net of sorts that they can comfortably fall back on if they start losing control of a game.
If you ask me it looks like something like this has been going on since the start - the team was structurally weak and it was mentally weak when Arteta picked it up, and priority #1 has been to (re)learn how to set ourselves up so we don't get pounded on with every break. Through that we restore the confidence we need to start working on more complex attacking plays, but first we need to work on not falling to pieces any time we lose possession, or someone ups the tempo.
Whatever 'Artetaball' looks like, I'm not sure we've actually seen it in any serious way yet - he's got us looking more solid against most opponents, and he's given us a few plays that we can keep rolling out to score goals, but I don't think the real attacking work will start until he's added a middle to his team.
I hope there is more to come and evolve that’s for sure. Right now I can’t help but think this is who Mikel is as a coach, I mean he was very much a safety first player too, not that it automatically means that’s who he’ll be as a coach but I can’t say I’ve watched many games under him and felt like we saw a well balanced performance.
Happy to give the benefit of the doubt until he can get some new midfield options in at least though.
I think Mikel is just working with what he has and trying to put some sort of system in place, safety first approach. We basically have a bunch of midfielders who are slow and unable to beat the press, these midfielders were getting dominated by pretty much every other teams midfield last season. IF Aouar and Partey come in then I think we will see a big difference in our approach, I mean look at the gap in quality between those and the likes of Xhaka and Elneny, our Midfield is an absolute mess, how we even got to this state i do not know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Whereas Wenger was off somewhere in la-la land, and Emery still thought he was managing a big club with big players and a big club mentality, seems like Arteta gets the reality and isn't trying for too much beyond the bog standard basics for now. And it might be like that for several seasons, we aren't there yet. Football's a tough game when you're up against a determined and organised opponent, even if individually they are all a bit pants. Maybe it's the necessary work that has to happen before anything else and a real team will emerge, maybe it's all these wasters can manage in return for their six figure a week payoff. Either way, so dull to watch.
None of that's any excuse to simply wave the white flag to Liverpool like we did on Monday, Auba muat really regretting signing that new deal now he's seen the limit of Arteta's ambition in a game like that is simply to keep the size of the defeat down...
I don't think that's true at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I do, that's why i wrote it...Quote:
Originally Posted by GP
We had such a defensive lineup that defeat was inevitable simply because there was very little threat going forward, Ceballos showed the difference one more attacking player could make but it was too late by then....
Any coach that thinks Xhaka and El Neny is a winning combo needs to lay off the drugs
Yeah Auba must really be kicking himself getting £300k+ this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I don’t but I do, I genuinely see both sides of the argument but I’m leaning towards Mikel making do with the garbage he has, that’s why he sets us up like that in these games? I dunno...Quote:
Originally Posted by GP
It’s pretty much the same shape, line up and tactics that we used in the two previous games against a Liverpool: twice it worked and we got a result; this time we lost. Them’s the breaks.
There was no great difference in how the 3 games played out from what I saw - Liverpool dominated all 3 in much the same way, we looked to counter and attack down the flanks, and this time it went their way. Tbh they could have easily won all 3 games, but then equally we might also have snatched another unlikely draw, or maybe even a cheeky win, In this one, if Lacazette had buried those two chances in the second half.
Personally speaking, I think the fact that we’re all this disappointed that we didn’t get something from an away game against one of the two best teams in Europe is Itself a sign (or symptom) of progress. Don’t forget this is still 95% Wenger and Emery’s unbalanced squad with all of the same weaknesses, flaws and limited players - this time last year my ambitions wouldn’t have extended any further than trying to keep the score down to 5! I certainly wouldn’t have ever thought there was a chance we could nick a tactical win.
And yet, had Laca not shat himself we'd have equalised and maybe got something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Liverpool are a level above us - they're a level above everyone. You go there and attack them and you're going to get walloped.
Arteta was pragmatic and rightly so, on another night it might have worked.
but as i've said i don't think Liverpool played that well - we need to be less supine - sure iu'm not talking abotu leaving ourselves wide open to counter attacks but such a defensive lineup was alays going to make it hard - it's all very well talking about the Laca chance, but LIverpool messed up a few chances but they created so many in general that victory was inevitable - we hardly created anyQuote:
Originally Posted by Letters
you said you missed the first half, if you'd seen it i don't think you;d be saying what you're saying tbh - we were truly awful
Rubbish. If you have a 100 mile journey to make by car, and put 50 miles worth of petrol in the tank, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you go because you aren't getting there. That was a fearful performance. It lacked the slightest ambition. If Laca had scored another hoof and fluke Liverpool would have exited training mode, scored, then gone back to training mode. They were so totally in control of the game it was an embarrassment to Arsenal Football Club and everyone involved with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I haven't seen an Arsenal team this uninventive or uninspiring since the darkest days of the 80s.
That's fair comment, only saw the second and was happy enough with our performance in that half.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Klopp was pretty happy with Liverpool's performance.
I don't think we should draw too many conclusions from losing at Anfield, no-one will get much there this year.
The manner of it you can debate I guess but in the part I saw we restricted them to a few change, had a couple on the break ourselves. We're just not at their level so I'm fine with a bit of pragmatism.
Arteta is at least going into games with a plan which is progress.
it's not whether we lost, it's how we lost and the inevitability of itQuote:
Originally Posted by Letters
i'm tired of all this lazy "well, it was Liverpool at Anfield" - so what? we're The Arsenal and we should go there to do more than just incessantly pass the ball sideways until we fuck up and concede another goal
This is just how we play now, even against weaker opposition. It’s pretty shit and unimaginative football but I’ll hold on to the hope that Arteta has stripped everything back to the basics so that he can build something worth paying to see as time goes on.
Hopefully the younger players are brave enough to have a go there tonight.
So you weren't happy when we went into these games with no plan and got thumped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Now you're not happy when we do go into these games with a more pragmatic approach. Sure, we still lost but we made a game of it. Entirely possible that had Laca equalised Liverpool would have gone up a gear but...well, they're better than us.
What do you want? I mean, we all want us to go into these games feeling we can take the game to them and have a good chance of winning, but we're not at that level yet.
aren't we? - we beat them in the Community shield, we beat Man City and Chelsea in the FA cupQuote:
Originally Posted by Letters
he's gone backwards since then
So what? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
There's nothing magic about being "the Arsenal". Yes, we're a big club but we've been pretty awful at plenty of times in our history. The best Wenger years were the blip, we have no divine right to be up there challenging for the title.
I think we need to be realistic about where we are right now - and where Liverpool are, The Invincibles probably wouldn't have won the league last year.
At least there was a plan. It didn't come off, it won't always, but I was far happier with that performance than the complete shit show against West Ham.
I think that's the key. He has to work with the youngsters while systematically getting rid of the seniors who have had long enough now to prove they are worth it. In a hit or miss manner, that's what he seems to be doing. I guess he still has to rely on the experience of some of the dross so it's not a total experiment from week to week, but I'd like to see some of the younger players get a more consistent run, rather than jumping on and off the bench all the time. Why Saka isn't the first name on the team sheet every week is a bit of a mystery. Why can't supposedly fitter than ever players not play weekly any more, especially given the pace we play at. Hardly tiring, it's a miracle if anyone stays awake.
We're not winning anything of note in the next few years, so there's time to rebuild with players who haven't absorbed every bad habit in the book.
We beat City playing much the same way as we did against Liverpool. Sometimes there are fine lines in games and they can go the other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
We contained City well, we contained Liverpool well - they only got the killer goal late on.
We haven't gone backwards, it's just there are fine lines in football. We're too early in the season to really know where we are - so far we've won the games we "should" win and lost one I expected us to lose.
We have touch run of games coming up so let's see where we are after that.
You say we are a big club and then say we need to be realistic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We WERE a big club and we have the history of a big club behind us. But we have shit players, bar a couple, and we don't spend anywhere near the money required to compete up at the top of the game. So how are we a big club?
What was the plan? For Laca to fluke a goal? For us to get 2 touches of the ball in the Liverpool penalty are in 45 minutes of football? To cower behind the halfway line and beg Liverpool not to hurt us? That's not a big club. It's about as small time as you can get.
I realise we're bumping along the bottom of longstanding decline - thanks Kroenke, thanks Wenger - but there's no cause for celebration because the decline has been halted. We're still at the bottom. There needs to be some indication we are heading back up. Slowly is fine. Gradually is fine. But always up. There have been too many false dawns at this club over the past decade. The jury is still out as to whether this is another one because setbacks like the performance at Liverpool - when the results counted, as opposed to the previous two triumphs, is a clear indication we are still capable of going backwards.
Nobody is asking for the team to go out and thump Liverpool at Anfield. That's a long distant dream, and nothing more than a dream at this stage. But that's not an excuse for a lack of ambition. We should still be trying to do the things a competitive football team does, even though we are outmatched. It's not as if we are non-league opponents, turning up for the day out. We're still a PL club. Didn't Watford (IIRC) find a way to beat Liverpool when it mattered? They could maybe do that 1 in 100 attempts, but in order to do it at all there's no way they took to that pitch hoping to keep the score down.
No way you can call yourself a big club if that's the mentality.
It's the mentality that kills me with this team and this club. That's why I was so unenthusiastic about Arteta. He was exactly that kind of player too. How can you win any game with sidewinders like Xhaka and El neny in your midfield. They both offer neither protection nor offence. I dont want to hear any crap about moving in the right direction if at the end of the season we are behind Leicester and Wolves and maybe Everton with no better results against the top.4. Wolves would never go to Anfield and put in such a supine performance.
We need to be realistic about where we are, but we are a big club and need to be ambitious about where we can get to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
And yeah, the plan was to contain them and try and get a goal on the break. Wasn't a million miles off working, Laca was one on one with the 'keeper - it wouldn't have been a fluke had he scored, he's a striker, that's his job.
I'm not defending the first half performance, I didn't see it and by all accounts it was awful. Second half though, we did OK. We contained them well, we nearly caught them on the break. Fine, they got the killer goal near the end but we weren't hammered.
As you say, small steps. Few indications we're heading in the right direction but...you know when I'll judge Arteta ;)
I was okay with Arteta when he was suggested first time around. We'd already missed out on Klopp - again, a lack of ambition, we had no serious chance of getting a chequebook manager, and the younger managers being mentioned didn't bring any more in the way of guarantees than a complete rookie, considering the problems already baked into this club which they would never have faced or even imagined existed. So I saw Arteta as fine, because the absolute priority was to get rid of Wenger. I figured Arteta would be booted if he was a complete mess, or else he'd maybe surprise us and at least bring a semblance of competitive football back to the club. Which he's sort of doing, albeit a bit random.
The way the pundits are going on about him now is just crazy though. As if he's transformed the team. I don't see it at all. He's made us more secure across the pitch, but that's the very minimum I would expect given Wenger and then Emery's suicidal attitude towards defence. But I can't see any indication we're doing more than that right now, just being a bit more secure. A bit more organised. More resilient. It's good, we needed it, it's something to build on. But games like the last one show what a mountain still needs to be climbed. If he's the guy who will help us climb it I don't know. A cup win, it's something. But cups and the challenge of the league are incomparable. So far, in terms of the big competition, it looks like he can stabilise us as a mid-table team. Maybe scrape a 4th in a Leicester style manner, every now and then? But that just represents an also-ran day out in the CL. And more money I guess. Even then - they buy Pepe.
It'll be a while before there's anything significant to get excited about, I'd guess. Took Utd and Liverpool decades to get back.
Don't disagree with any of that. Personally I'm more concerned about the West Ham performance than the Liverpool one.
I can live with us being cautious against one of the best sides in Europe, but 2nd half performance was pretty decent, I reckon.
I only saw the second half against West Ham and it was really awful, we were lucky to win that one. That was concerning. I guess Christmas will be a reasonable point to take stock.
agreed, what the club did with Saka was a big con, playing him every week until he signed a new contract then barely playing him again - he'd have every right to feel very pissed off right nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
i don't get why we don't play younger players consistently - they're not going to fall apart at the seams if they play more games ffs, why not use them when they're untainted by cynicism and full of positivity?