thank god that's over - a chance to see young players wasted, what a joyless funless bucketload of misery Arteta is
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thank god that's over - a chance to see young players wasted, what a joyless funless bucketload of misery Arteta is
2-2 FT, Sterling booked and unavailable for the first leg of 1/4 final. Didn’t actually play terribly tonight
Ultimately I’m not going to get het up about two young lads who in all likelihood will be playing championship/league one football in a few years not getting their chance for us. If they were good enough to be of some benefit to us beyond a rubber stamp game like this, I’m sure they’d be getting minutes
In our search for a new striker next season Arteta will sign a 23 y/o defender who once scored 10 goals playing as a forward when he was 5 so can do so for us :sarcy:
You would have probably said the same about Biereth, who was with us for 3 years and never played a game despite having impressive loan spells and rave reviews. Since we sold him last summer he's scored 21 goals in 23 appearances across two title chasing clubs.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
We're yet to hear the last of our cock up with him as I expect he'll be in the EPL soon, probably after making his international debut for England or Denmark.... definitely would have made more sense to have at least tried him before getting rid at such a ridiculous price, even Sturm Graz (that made a crazy profit in only 6 months) are regretting as they've started losing games now.... but I'm guessing Arteta wants the fans to continually throw hissy fits like we did with Saliba before he'll consistently give our youngsters a fair chance.
Or Donyell Malen who didn’t make it for us but ended up with Dortmund and now…..Aston Villa
Balogun scored a load of goals for Rennes in his loan season, not been anywhere near as impressive as we sold him to Monaco
Plus clubs do this. Andy Cole was just a tea leaf with us, but at Newcastle and United he was a top goalscorer
Chelsea I’m sure regret selling De Bruyne, Man United had to pay silly money to get Pogba back
Mika Biereth might come good, he might also just be having a good season (yes I know he’s done ok on loan but that’s in Scotland and Austria) and it might come to nothing more like Niklas Bendtner mark 2
Yes good shout on Saliba, we musn't forget Arteta thought he 'wasn't ready' just one season before he came back here and immediately established himself as one of the best CBs in the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
And even if we don't want to keep them, doesn't CL playing time increase the value of a player?
And lastly bringing on people like Ode when we're 6 goals up ahead of younger players seems dumb, if they pick up an injury it sets us back once again.
I'm really glad I sold my ticket for last night, I'd only have gone to see the younger players so I'd have been (even more) effing fuming if I had
The thing is, the way I look at it. If either Kaba or the other one came on, I’d be absolutely fine with it…even if they have no future ultimately at the club. To the point where it does seem somewhat churlish that we don’t, but I honestly am not understanding why it gets anyone that animated. Is it because we are lacking goals and hoping against hope that these guys can step up and perform?
I mean yeah it’s certainly possible but I tend to think Nwaneri and Lewis-Skelly would have got their shot this season regardless of injuries (maybe not as much time as they’ve had but still). I don’t think these other guys would have featured even from the bench unless it was a league cup game
End of the day, we’ve seen with multiple other players, if Arteta doesn’t rate you, he doesn’t rate you. I certainly have big issues with his transfer policies as well as his selection policies. But out of all the things to be angry about, doesn’t really register for me I’m afraid
Then again I was chided on here (and kicked off another place) for being non plussed about spending so much on Calafiori when we needed a striker, so different things animate different people. Frankly it feels on here that a lot of people on here seem as angry now as I was say three months ago. Now i am far more in a it is what it is state of mind.
I think we needed a striker in January before Jesus got injured let alone before Havertz (not saying anyone here disagreed with that by the way). But i think im more in the moved on/acceptance stage of grief :lol:
When fans dispute the manager's opinion of players I always think "the manager does get to see the player in training for hours every single day".Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Which doesn't make the fans' view irrelevant or even wrong but the managers do have access to a lot more data to base their decisions and opinions on.
The problem there being that this particular manager said Saliba wasn't ready when clearly he was, only brought in Saka due to others being unavailable and didn't rush to play Nwaneri even when Ode was injured and we desperately needed some extra quality in the attackQuote:
Originally Posted by Letters
So I don't trust what he personally sees in training tbh
I do get that this may not be a big deal to some btw, but for me I really enjoy seeing young players come through and to see what they can do in match conditions, given last night was a dead rubber it was the only thing that held any interest for me tbh, hence my disappointment
Also I think it speaks to the bigger point about how overly cautious Arteta is, to the point where it works against him, because he overworks some players and doesn't give others any opportunity to improve, gain experience and show what they can do
I think there’s definitely an argument in regards to players who have potential being brought in only when there’s almost no alternative. Arteta doesn’t trust these players and often overplays those who probably deserve to be dropped (Willian was big example of that)
But I often think also that when we question why Arteta doesn’t rate players and they end up being moved on. I think it’s hard to think of players that have drastically proved him wrong….Biereth could be that player but again I’d need to see more than a cluster of goals in a bullshit league like the French one.
Tierney? I think the fact he’s still with us is down to his lack of fitness rather than lack of ability but football can be cruel and at 28 him going back to Celtic suggests he like Wilshere was never able to reach his full potential anyway.
It depends what people mean by a player not being good enough. This season has shown why having decent squad players is important, not people who will start every week but people who can start in place of someone like Saka against Ipswich etc.
As an example I think if he'd rotated a bit more to give ESR and Nelson more game time they would have been good options to keep at the club but, particularly in ESR's case, they clearly knew they weren't going to get any and weren't listening any more to Arteta's BS about them being played more in the future.
I'd like to have seen more of the kids last night, although I would say that the fact it was a dead rubber means it wouldn't necessarily have been much of a test for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I think I basically agree with you, I just don't feel as strongly about it as you clearly do.
Solid post and I think everyone has made good points regarding this.....however I really do think it's down to how much you trust the judgement of your coach, and clearly Arteta has made his bed on this matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I mean this is a coach who doesn't believe having quality strikers (let alone prolific ones) are important for a team trying to win the most competitive competitions in football. A coach who thinks in this modern game he can play the same 11 in a +60 game season and still achieve enviable results. A coach who unbalances his team by having a large retinue of defensive players to chose from and struggles when only 2 forward players are missing. A coach who already had a small squad (by his own making) and still insists on having the most intensive training sessions, with all the risks this involves come what may. A coach who is now unwilling to try something new when leading a tie by a record goal margin in front of your home crowd.
I think we've all seen enough football to know, you win things by being ready to take risks and at least getting the basics right to ensure you are always able to out score your opponents, especially when your opponents keep employing the same tactic to get results against you.
BTW I just hope we've started practicing penalty shootouts, I can't see this squad winning the CL without having to go through one.
ESR i agree (although you can argue that he was sold to facilitate Nwaneri promotion) but with Nelson? Nah the guy is 25/26 and whilst I have every respect for his work rate…we have more than enough players who can roll up their sleeves but offer next to nothing from a technical point of view.
Don’t get me wrong, in hindsight I’d rather have him here than Sterling but that’s a low bar
Ultimately whilst I agree that we don’t rotate as much as we should, but as much as I’m not a big fan of Liverpool’s squad I don’t think players like Vieira, Nelson and some of the other players we’ve sent out on loan would be good enough for their squad.
Every season ( at least for the last 10 years) has shown the importance of having a squad that is as good as your first 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I can't even remember the last time a coach won the league by playing the same starting lineup over and over again....maybe Mourinho's first coming in 2005 ??
Its almost certain that ESR's sale had nothing to do with Nwaneri, as immediately Odegaard got injured, Arteta went off with his wet dream and started playing 3-4 DMs in every match till we rebelled.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
As for Vieira, he started of slowly at Porto but he's lately become one of their most important player with crucial goals and assists.
I am not trying to be a revisionist, I actually wanted Eddie and Vieira gone and even agreed that ESR should have another challenge...but I believed we were going to buy more players or at least promote more youngins, something we woefully refused to do and are now left with regrets of what might have been if we'd just stayed the same.
I mean really, does anyone believe that last years squad (forget adding Califiori, Sterling and Merino) wouldn't have done better in the league than this year with Citeh's implosion? Are we saying we'd have also lost Eddie to injury at this crucial time and that Nelson wouldn't have done a better job as a striker than Merino?
Note, every injury we had that has derailed our season has been one of the old guard. If Sterling, Merino and Caliafiori had been injured on the 1st game of the season like Timber was last year, I don't think it would have made a difference to where we are currently placed in the league this season. Also note its the league I am specific about as I do think Merino and Calafiori have helped in the CL.
To be as generous as I can be to the signings of Merino and Calafiori (and I actually like Calafiori) the purchases were based it seems to me on predicting where injuries were most likely to come from. We know that we had Tomiyasu out for forever, Timber was only just coming back. With Merino I think the assumption was that Partey would be out injured loadsQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
As for ESR, well probably no guarantee that he’d have been a starter even with Odegaard injured (Arteta a strange one) but I think that Nwaneri didn’t come into replace him was two fold, 1) because Arteta didn’t think he was ready and yeah that speaks to his overcautiousness which I think we all agree is part of who he is 2) I think he saw him more as a winger than a CAM (jury is out on that one for me).
No I was the same, I was certainly not sad to see a lot of these squad players go but with the benefit of hindsight, I think if nothing else had we kept them we wouldn’t have had to be playing Havertz, Odegaard, Saka in every game and we probably wouldn’t have lost players to the kind of muscle injuries that we did. And in that event, we would have been far closer to challenging than has proved to be the case even if we factor in our style of play as a drag factor.
But it still would be a sticking plaster solution, and as you’ve said your hope would be that they went to bring in better players (as would have been mine)