When will Arteta be sacked by

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Originally Posted by Mac76

most of that's right although i do think Partey at RB was because he didn't have Zin at LB and he wanted to carry on his inverted FB BS

that said there may well also have been something going on with Gabriel and he was trying to prove we didn't need him by playing White at CB, which was shown to be blatantly dumb and whether he likes it or not he simply can't undermine our defence by not playing Gabriel and Saliba as a partnership and in their best positions

his combination of rookieness, failing to see the obvious, obsession with previous-era Citeh, inability to deal with various different character types and general stubborness are a terrible combination

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I don’t know but I suspect the issue with Gabriel was connected to the possibility of Arsenal selling him to one of the Saudi clubs. There was interest shown in him, and I do think the club is mindful of the fact that we’ve spent a lot of money and need to recoup some of it, which means being prepared to accept a “offer you can’t refuse” bid for even our best players, especially in light of the failure to make much money on the players we do want to sell.

I don’t think the “Rookie” thing is especially relevant, I think actually in many ways you’re better off with a young coach because they are more open to change and innovation, where as the longer a coach has been in the game the more they tend to get stuck in their ways. Arteta is a junior Guardiola, and I’m minded to think that were he coaching City whilst he might not as successful as his mentor…..they’d still be winning things. Guardiola has all the same flaws as Arteta. I think Guardiola is more extroverted but he is someone who thinks he’s more intelligent than he is, as I say his system at City is working because the players he’s had at his disposal are good enough to manage despite it’s obvious clunkiness…Guardiola not a people person, not particularly warm or friendly…hes more agressive where Arteta is passive aggressive but both are stubborn and inflexible. Why it’s taken him so long to win the champions league with City and why he never succeeded in doing so with Barcelona.
Arteta will go to City and he will probably do ok there depending on whether their spending ability remains largely unchanged.

What we needed was someone who was a cross between Klopp and Wenger, Klopp knew when he came to Liverpool that a number of players he had at his disposal were just not good enough but he didn’t just freeze them out…he incorporated them into his team so either he made full use of them or by the time it came to upgrade them they hadn’t been bench warming for a year and totally depleted of value to buying clubs.

If Arteta doesn’t rate you, it’s very hard almost impossible to change his mind, and if you’re not worthy of playing in his team you’re not worthy of his time. You’ll see that a lot of people who left simply stated that they never even had a single conversation with Arteta between the time they joined and the time they left.

I don’t think he likes what we might call difficult players but ultimately he will tolerate them as long as they are useful (which he did with Auba). Rightly or wrongly he regarded Xhaka as one of our better players, although that said i think he wanted an upgrade on him in 2021, but when he struggled to get in the player he wanted to replace him (Manuel Locatelli) he panicked and convinced Xhaka to sign a new deal.

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Originally Posted by Letters

It isn't.

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Then I would suggest you spend more time actually watching games and gathering an evidence base for yourself before simply dismissing the arguments of others. Because let’s be fair that’s what you’re doing, it’s not just you disagree your opening gambit was that it was utterly crazy to even discuss replacing Arteta where we are at the moment. Which I’ve no doubt you’d be more than capable of providing a substantive argument in favour of, but not without actually watching the games

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Then I would suggest you spend more time actually watching games and gathering an evidence base for yourself before simply dismissing the arguments of others. Because let’s be fair that’s what you’re doing, it’s not just you disagree your opening gambit was that it was utterly crazy to even discuss replacing Arteta where we are at the moment. Which I’ve no doubt you’d be more than capable of providing a substantive argument in favour of, but not without actually watching the games

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I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

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When your opinion is a) based on a far smaller evidentiary base b) utterly dismissive of the opinions of others, which as I’ve said seems far more about your risk adverse small c conservative mindset (which was very much the case with your reticence to replace Wenger back in the day) rather than actually being convinced by the coach. Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” and “we have no guarantees of getting someone better”.

Fine I don’t think there’s even anything necessary wrong with believing that, but your diagnosis that it ain’t broke comes from watching match highlights and seeing the league table early on….rather than the performances which you must admit whether people here are pro or anti Arteta are raising a hell of a lot of red flags.

I accept that my argument at the beginning of the season was histrionic, but even that is tempered with a couple of injuries to key players and it could really all go down the shitter in a big way. And I don’t think it’s crazy at all to believe that Arteta has peaked in what he’s able to achieve for us, and that a club of ambition should at the very least have an eye on an upgrade.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

your diagnosis that it ain’t broke.

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That isn't my diagnosis.

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Originally Posted by Letters

That isn't my diagnosis.

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Then what exactly are you arguing? You’re far from stupid….you know that I’m not making an unsubstantiated and baseless claim when I’m talking about the massive expenditure this club has seen under Mikel Arteta. When I say broke I don’t mean creases to be ironed out, I mean serious flaws so either our definition of broken is very different or I’m at a loss as to what your objection is

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Originally Posted by Letters

I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

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tbf highlights really don't tell you much, I know that from watching the games and then watching the highilghts - I've seen gamese where we were pretty crap for 80 minutes but then have the highlights make us look really good because it's the ten acculmulated minutes where we actaully did anything worthwhile

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Originally Posted by Mac76

tbf highlights really don't tell you much, I know that from watching the games and then watching the highilghts - I've seen gamese where we were pretty crap for 80 minutes but then have the highlights make us look really good because it's the ten acculmulated minutes where we actaully did anything worthwhile

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Yep you don’t really get a full flavour from match of the day and even less of one from the snippet highlight reels that Skysports produce.

Of course you could argue that even at our best, there were games where the spells of brilliance are deceptive and much more of the game is a turgid nothing….and I’d say that’s largely reflective of our away game performances so far. Largely in control but stifled when it comes to the all important affair of putting the ball in the net. Though I suspect that’s as much because Everton, Palace and Bournemouth showed zero ambition and Lens decided to go for it (though as I said to someone earlier even with the players we had on the pitch, out of position if we’d just continue to soak up the pressure rather than try and play on the front foot with zero space to operate in…we’d have torn them to pieces like wet tissue)

My main gripe with Arteta is his weird lack of ability to react to things in game. It doesn’t matter how things are playing out I feel like the changes he makes are already pre-programmed. The lack of flexibility will prevent him from being considered an elite coach. Though because of his links with Pep and general reputation in the game he’ll still probably land on his feet whenever his career takes him.

I think he has definitely earned the right to see this out. It’s difficult to justify removing a coach who has overseen quite a significant transformation of the club and team itself. Let’s not forget how fucking awful it was in the dying days of Wenger and the years that followed. You only have to look at the posts here to see how much apathy there was.

Ultimately, we don’t have an Abramovich style owner so we’re never going to be a club who won’t accept not winning. So whoever the coach is, will most likely be given all the time they need until something goes disastrously wrong. I do think the expectation to succeed is fair though now, 4 years is a long time and with the money we’ve spent in recent seasons a league title is definitely something that should feel within reach.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

When your opinion is a) based on a far smaller evidentiary base

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Your far larger "evidentiary base" has led you to basically get every prediction wrong so far this season. Forgive me if I don't have much confidence in your 20:20 foresight.

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utterly dismissive of the opinions of others

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Which I haven't been. I've repeatedly acknowledged there are some concerns this season. Performances haven't been great. Some of Arteta's decisions have been suspect.
What I find silly is this thread firing up again after every bad result.
You're the one being dismissive with your "you don't even watch the games". I've always found that sort of fan snobbishness ridiculous. I had a season ticket from 90-91 up till around 2012 and I never considered myself "better" than other fans who weren't able to watch games or having more of a right to an opinion than others.

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Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” and “we have no guarantees of getting someone better”.

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Wrong and correct respectively. The latter is true - changing manager is by definition a disruptive thing. Doing that to a team which just finished in their best position since 2016 and have, overall, started this season well would be madness in my opinion. Obviously it depends how we do this season. If we don't even finish Top 4 then it's a different conversation given how we did last year and how much money we've spent.
With regard to the former, my position is not that "it ain't broke", I dispute whether we know whether it's broke yet.
Last season we massively overperformed given pre-season expectations. We're less than a 20% of the way into the season, that isn't enough to tell you much. If we'd lost every game so far then OK, I'd agree that was a pretty good indication that all is not well. Everton, I think we can agree, are not going to be champions this year. It's far too early to tell much about our long term prospects. I completely disagree that "there’s probably been enough games played now to get an idea of where we are likely to be."

We'd scored 2 more goals at this stage last year. I'm not convinced that's enough of a difference to be significant.
We've actually conceded one fewer than last year at this stage. And we have only one less point.
While we're here, Spurs started the season with P7 W5 D2 L0 last year and were 2nd, level with City and 1 point behind us.
Was that enough games to indicate where they were "likely to be"?

I take the point about performances but seasons are long. Feelings change. They change from game to game. After the Bournemouth game I was pretty upbeat. The CL game pissed me off. If we lose to City, as I fear we will, then that will be a big indication that things aren't going to go well this season. Which may sound like a bit of a contradiction to my above thought that you can only really tell long term, but games like this are big tests of where you are as a club. These are the games we have to be standing up in, if we don't again then I don't know if I'll hop on the Arteta Out bandwagon but it will set the alarm bells ringing loudly.

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I don’t think it’s crazy at all to believe that Arteta has peaked in what he’s able to achieve for us, and that a club of ambition should at the very least have an eye on an upgrade.

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I don't think any of that is crazy. I just think it's too early to say definitively that we've gone backwards. I mean, we could go top at the weekend. Or it could be another failure to stand up in a big 6 pointer. I do fear the latter but the game hasn't happened yet. Just quit straw-manning me.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Only game we've lost all season, a point off the top of the table after a good 4-0 away win and Arteta out? :lol:

You lot are silly!

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I don’t think this is me straw manning you, I think this is where I’m pointing to and saying…maybe given you don’t watch Arsenal play live, it’s a little bit much for you to be so dismissive.

Your recent post suggested I’m saying you should agree with me. No like I say I appreciate that there’s an argument for caution. But saying you lot are silly? especially when no one has stated “we must sack him now” - rather stating how games like last night exemplify the grave misgivings they have of this coach. I think calling people silly seemed silly in its dismissive attitude, and conveyed a sense to me of the “this is fine” meme dog.

Claiming I’m being snobbish by saying “you’re not watching the games” is utterly absurd. I know nothing about your life or your social/work commitments to know whether you avoiding watching the games is a choice or there simply isn’t the time for you to sit down and watch them either live or find somewhere that shows the whole match afterwards. It’s no reflection, I don’t hold with this childish “you’re not as much as a fan than me” bollocks.

It’s just a statement of fact, that by watching the highlights you’re not getting the full picture. I’m not saying at all that if you watched the full match you’d change your mind (in fact I’d say that’s highly unlikely as your argument is far less determined by performances) but maybe your dismissiveness might carry a bit more weight than it does currently.

Also to pick up on other arguments you made

Our overall goal scoring this season in the league has been padded out with a lot of penalties. Now as you know, not every penalty that gets awarded stems from the denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity, in fact I’d argue that possibly one of the five penalties we’ve been awarded this season would have resulted in a goal had the player not made the foul (and that was the one at palace) but in fairness that’s speculative. But when almost 40% of your league goals are reliant on refereeing decisions that does provide pause for contemplation.

And also you disagree that ten games can give you a fairly good idea of how a season will go? Can you name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started?. I’d have to go back to the 01/02 title winning season where like now our performances at home are decidedly ropey (even worse given we only won once in our first five league games at Highbury) although I’d say that the performances were good even if the results were not and you could see scope for improvement.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

My main gripe with Arteta is his weird lack of ability to react to things in game. It doesn’t matter how things are playing out I feel like the changes he makes are already pre-programmed. The lack of flexibility will prevent him from being considered an elite coach. Though because of his links with Pep and general reputation in the game he’ll still probably land on his feet whenever his career takes him.

I think he has definitely earned the right to see this out. It’s difficult to justify removing a coach who has overseen quite a significant transformation of the club and team itself. Let’s not forget how fucking awful it was in the dying days of Wenger and the years that followed. You only have to look at the posts here to see how much apathy there was.

Ultimately, we don’t have an Abramovich style owner so we’re never going to be a club who won’t accept not winning. So whoever the coach is, will most likely be given all the time they need until something goes disastrously wrong. I do think the expectation to succeed is fair though now, 4 years is a long time and with the money we’ve spent in recent seasons a league title is definitely something that should feel within reach.

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I think Arteta is a decent to very good modern manager but he has plenty of faults. I think he has done very well up until now and reshaped the team / squad well albeit with pretty much an open chequebook.

The end of last season and the performances this season have raised a lot of questions about Arteta and the team in general. Whilst Arteta should be given time, he should also be judged on a results and performance basis, because he pretty much has the squad he wants now. He spent a lot of money in the summer and has arguably made us worse, at least that's how it looks right now.

I am prepared to give him time, but I do have big expectations of this team and expect a top 2 finish in PL and a domestic trophy in one of the cups. Given the spend and the quality of players we have I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I don’t think this is me straw manning you

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These are the straw mans:

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”

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I didn't say that, I've been very clear about my stance.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

If your attitude is “oh we will probably lose to city at the weekend but never mind, we are better off than where we were three years ago”

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Completely made up, and I've just said that yet another loss to City would be concerning.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

If you don’t watch the games and are just comfortable with a top four finish, then yeah there’s nothing to be concerned about.

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Also completely made up.

I've also clarified what is silly - bumping this thread after every bad result. If it was a bad run of results well OK, that would be different.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Claiming I’m being snobbish by saying “you’re not watching the games” is utterly absurd.

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It's not that in itself, it's the implication that because I don't watch the games my opinions are invalid, or less valid. Fine, I'd accept I'm not getting the full picture by only watching highlights, but you do watch games and your predictions have not exactly been spot on so far. You accuse me of being dismissive - even though I've agreed with many of you concerns, including the one about goal-scoring. It feels to me you are being dismissive of me because I don't watch as avidly as you these days so I don't get a right to an option.
(For the record, I stopped going because of a combination of dad's health declining, it getting horribly expensive and getting married and thus having different priorities. I don't watch much these days because my general interest in football has declined. Partly I guess because Arsenal aren't the force we were, partly because of a general ennui with the modern game where trophies are bought up left right and centre, the modern players are mostly unlikeable fannies and now we've got VAR buggering things up)

As for this:

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

And also you disagree that ten games can give you a fairly good idea of how a season will go? Can you name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started?

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Before things got really crap under Wenger we went through a whole sequence of seasons where we'd either
1) Start like a train, look like potential title contenders and then fall apart and just about limp into the top 4.
2) Start really poorly, everyone would run around screaming, say we were going to end up in mid table or worse and then we'd go on this ridiculous run and just about haul ourselves into the top 4.

Again, I'm not disputing performances have been patchy, but results have not which is the main thing early season. What is this false negative? We're a point off the top of the table.

I like how you’ve ignored that all these things you’ve quoted contain qualifiers like If, so rather than actually asserting “that’s what you believe” I’m actually saying if that’s what you believe, and you’ve clarified that you don’t so claiming that I’m straw manning you is simply a case of your perception. In fact the nearest I’ve come is saying “it seems that” which is not me asserting you believe this or that, this is me saying this is how it’s coming across. And again you’ve clarified that this is not the case.

Crikey, hauling ourselves into the top 4 is not a measure of a good season. It was a sign that we were treading water. Now in hindsight you can argue that Wenger actually did very well in getting us top 4 because of the restrictions on finances and on the whole (far more than I admittedly was at the time) I’m wholly sympathetic to that view.

I’m saying our ambition is no longer limited. In fact because of FFP, the only advantage the kleptocrat owned clubs have over us is that they got a good head start on us. But as I’ve said Haaland aside, City’s best players are ageing…they simply can’t take the piss by splashing out to replace like for like. That over time creates a more and more level playing field. The excuse of the “well can you be surprised when they can just buy themselves a whole team” doesn’t wash, look at Chelsea’s spending it’s done by implementing mammoth long contracts and by signing prospects rather than top quality players.

I can’t be clearer than I’ve been, this is our time. Arguably not just our time to compete but potentially to dominate. We have a pathway opening up to us due to changing circumstances but its not an opportunity that will last forever, the best players in our squad will start getting older whilst we play it safe not wanting to upset what we think we’ve already achieved.

With a top coach we absolutely could not only win the league but retain it for the first time since the 1930s, and finally announce our arrival as one of the top clubs in Europe by winning the champions league. We cannot do this by handwringing and saying “well I don’t want to rock the boat, he did finish 2nd with us and he deserves a chance to push us on”

He deserves this season and even that shouldn’t be guaranteed. I don’t see why even finishing 2nd this season should buy him anymore time unless it’s a result of another gigantic points haul from City. And what if City aren’t title winners? What if Liverpool manage to win it….does finishing second or third become just as acceptable then.

For this club to reach its true potential, requires being bold and it’s not for the faint hearted. And if a coach is a barrier to that progress, there shouldn’t be hesitation about dispensing with that coach

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I like how you’ve ignored that all these things you’ve quoted contain qualifiers like If

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But why say it at all? Just saying "If you think that...", it kinda implies you believe I might think that. I don't think I've said anything which does imply those things.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Crikey, hauling ourselves into the top 4 is not a measure of a good season.

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In today's episode of "things Letters didn't say"...
Your question was "name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started".
There are multiple seasons where that happened. And others when the reverse happened. There were a few seasons where our form was very patchy early season and people on here ranted about how we were going to finish mid-table, the more hysterical people suggested we could go down. Weren't you here then? If so you surely remember all that whining. And we ended up Top 4. You could consider that the bare minimum, but that's a separate discussion. So yes, unless the early season results are really catastrophic, and ours haven't been, they're not that indicative of where you'll end up. It's widely acknowledged that Christmas is the first important milestone in a season, that's when the table really takes shape. I said elsewhere that years ago papers didn't even publish tables this early in a season as it was all a bit meaningless.

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I’m saying our ambition is no longer limited.

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And I wouldn't disagree. We were genuine contenders last season, contrary to everyone's expectations. We've invested heavily in the summer (arguably not well, but the board have certainly backed Arteta). That puts the pressure on to deliver. All I'm saying is it's too early to say how that's going to work out.
I'm not disagreeing there are some warning signs that all is not well.
I'm sceptical that FFP has much teeth. But what is certainly true is our spending power is much higher than it was which puts us on or close to a level playing field with the other usual suspects.

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I can’t be clearer than I’ve been, this is our time. Arguably not just our time to compete but potentially to dominate.

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I don't really agree. The way I see it we now have more clubs who can spend big, not less. I think the top 4 could get more competitive. I said above that our spending power now puts us on a level playing field, but I do also think there are more clubs on that field. City are having their moment in the sun, those periods of dominance don't last forever but I don't think it's clear that we are their natural successors. We're certainly one of the clubs who could be, but there are others.

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He deserves this season and even that shouldn’t be guaranteed. I don’t see why even finishing 2nd this season should buy him anymore time unless it’s a result of another gigantic points haul from City. And what if City aren’t title winners? What if Liverpool manage to win it….does finishing second or third become just as acceptable then.

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I think what's acceptable is a good question, although I do raise an eyebrow at people who seem to think of Arsenal like dining in a fine restaurant and if the food and service isn't absolutely amazing then they should have a paddy about it being completely unacceptable. Football is a highly competitive sport where everyone else is trying to spoil your meal, to continue the (not very good) analogy. There are multiple clubs who are able to spend big, we are not uniquely placed to dominate

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And if a coach is a barrier to that progress, there shouldn’t be hesitation about dispensing with that coach

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Well sure. But I don't believe it's currently clear that Arteta is that barrier.
And it's equally unclear that another manager would facilitate or enable progress. The fact said coach did so elsewhere is no guarantee that he (or she ;)) would with us.
As discussed, I am a bit risk adverse. I admit that. But I would note that when Wenger left things did initially get worse before they got better. People can look back with 20:20 hindsight and say it was inevitable because he left us in such a mess. But the rhetoric on here at the time was that Wenger was such a bumbling idiot that anyone would come in and do better. That's not what happened. Replacing Conte worked at Spurs because the relationship between the squad and manager had broken down and the result was a massive underperformance from them. In that situation replacing the manager was a clear decision. But that isn't the situation at Arsenal so the decision to replace Arteta is much less clear to me.

I think you’re being a bit obtuse here, the point being made isn’t that we will finish mid table but that top four in of itself is no longer acceptable as a minimum target. And to say it’s too soon to suggest whether we will achieve more than that is wide of the mark. Likely we will finish in the top four, but not make a sustained title challenge.

The point is, you’re not being clear what you do think is acceptable. Because it feels for me like you’re saying you do have the ambition but then you’re kind of getting a bit “now hold on a second” when it’s suggested that there are ways for us to reach it.

For the reasons I’ve suggested I think it is our time, Newcastle it’s going to be a few years before they are ready to challenge, City could well have peaked, United and Chelsea are in a complete and utter mess…which leaves Liverpool who have a far better coach than us but I think we have greater spending power than they do.


My suggestion is we take advantage and look and be open towards getting an improvement on Arteta. And if you don’t think it’s clear that he is a barrier and that last season was his high water mark…I’d say the burden is on you to suggest why that might not be the case. And “well we don’t know yet” is simply not a response worthy of any serious consideration, especially when you have condemned people for being silly for stating that he can’t take us further.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

. Why it’s taken him so long to win the champions league with City and why he never succeeded in doing so with Barcelona.

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Minor correction: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...s_League_final

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Can you name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started?. I’d have to go back to the 01/02 title winning season where like now our performances at home are decidedly ropey (even worse given we only won once in our first five league games at Highbury) although I’d say that the performances were good even if the results were not and you could see scope for improvement.

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The 2020/21 season was a pretty poor start, losing five games and drawing another

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

If Arteta doesn’t rate you, it’s very hard almost impossible to change his mind, and if you’re not worthy of playing in his team you’re not worthy of his time. You’ll see that a lot of people who left simply stated that they never even had a single conversation with Arteta between the time they joined and the time they left.

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This is one of his key failings along with the inability to change games tactically once the first whistle has gone

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Originally Posted by WMUG

Minor correction: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...s_League_final

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He won two with Barcelona. That was a brain fart, I meant to say Bayern Munich

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Originally Posted by Mac76

The 2020/21 season was a pretty poor start, losing five games and drawing another

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And do you regard finishing 8th as a successful season ?

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

the point being made isn’t that we will finish mid table

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I know it isn't. Are you just deliberately trying to misunderstand me? The only time I mentioned mid-table was when I was talking about past seasons when people on here said we were going to finish mid-table or worse, based on poor starts to the season, and we didn't. I did so to evidence that early season form doesn't indicate where you'll end up. That said, while you can't win the title in the first 10 games you can certainly lose it. A catastrophic start would have all but ruled us out already, but we haven't had one. We're a point off the top.

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And to say it’s too soon to suggest whether we will achieve more than that is wide of the mark. Likely we will finish in the top four, but not make a sustained title challenge.

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Your confidence in that prediction is bewildering given your record of predictions this season and the past evidence I've presented.
Again, if we'd lost a bunch of games already then you could probably rule us out already, but we haven't. We're a point off the top.
I do think if City beat us it will mean you're likely to be correct though.

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The point is, you’re not being clear what you do think is acceptable. Because it feels for me like you’re saying you do have the ambition but then you’re kind of getting a bit “now hold on a second” when it’s suggested that there are ways for us to reach it.

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Well there's two things here. I'm not as convinced as you are that what you're suggesting is the way to reach it. I have explained why. You may disagree, well OK. We're both talking in hypotheticals.
And secondly I find it difficult to articulate what is acceptable. My general feeling is I want us to continue to make progress, while recognising that no team ever gets better year on year forever. We have strengthened over the summer but we have the demands of the CL this year which we didn't last. And we don't exist in a vacuum. If City and Liverpool have, for them, poor seasons and we don't capitalise and win the title then that will be more damning than if they both go mental, get 95+ points and we finish 3rd.

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For the reasons I’ve suggested I think it is our time

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Yes. But I don't agree. It's certainly not as clear as you suggest. So I'm not convinced there's anything to take advantage of.

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And if you don’t think it’s clear that he is a barrier and that last season was his high water mark…I’d say the burden is on you to suggest why that might not be the case. And “well we don’t know yet” is simply not a response worthy of any serious consideration

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What other response can there be? The season isn't finished. Your confidence in your foresight is baffling given your predictions so far and their outcomes.

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especially when you have condemned people for being silly for stating that he can’t take us further.

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Another point I have clarified and you have ignored. What I said was silly is this thread starting up again after one bad result. If there'd been a run of bad results then ok, but there hasn't been.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I know it isn't. Are you just deliberately trying to misunderstand me? The only time I mentioned mid-table was when I was talking about past seasons when people on here said we were going to finish mid-table or worse, based on poor starts to the season, and we didn't. I did so to evidence that early season form doesn't indicate where you'll end up. That said, while you can't win the title in the first 10 games you can certainly lose it. A catastrophic start would have all but ruled us out already, but we haven't had one. We're a point off the top.


Your confidence in that prediction is bewildering given your record of predictions this season and the past evidence I've presented.
Again, if we'd lost a bunch of games already then you could probably rule us out already, but we haven't. We're a point off the top.
I do think if City beat us it will mean you're likely to be correct though.


Well there's two things here. I'm not as convinced as you are that what you're suggesting is the way to reach it. I have explained why. You may disagree, well OK. We're both talking in hypotheticals.
And secondly I find it difficult to articulate what is acceptable. My general feeling is I want us to continue to make progress, while recognising that no team ever gets better year on year forever. We have strengthened over the summer but we have the demands of the CL this year which we didn't last. And we don't exist in a vacuum. If City and Liverpool have, for them, poor seasons and we don't capitalise and win the title then that will be more damning than if they both go mental, get 95+ points and we finish 3rd.


Yes. But I don't agree. It's certainly not as clear as you suggest. So I'm not convinced there's anything to take advantage of.


What other response can there be? The season isn't finished. Your confidence in your foresight is baffling given your predictions so far and their outcomes.


Another point I have clarified and you have ignored. What I said was silly is this thread starting up again after one bad result. If there'd been a run of bad results then ok, but there hasn't been.

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You understand the meaning of the quote misattributed to Einstein “the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. The posts you referred to as silly earmarked the lessons Arteta seems to refuse to learn. The mistakes that are made that are so blindingly obvious that even a bunch of argumentative Middle Aged cunts on a football forum can see them.

And it’s not that Arteta is stupid (although I’m minded to think he’s definitely not as clever as he thinks he is) but he’s stubborn…and believes that he can make what does not work, work with persistence. And when you have that attitude you become blind to the obvious and enter a mindset of escalation of commitment.

You yourself already think we will lose to City at the weekend, and if you’re correct…that’s not just a one off setback, it’s a continuation of whats been going on for ages (I defy you to find me any team that has lost 12 times in a row in the league to city let alone 13) and it suggests we are no further forward than we are before. So yes sometimes one defeat is more than a single defeat, it essentially symbolises what is going wrong.

Defeat in itself is not a disaster, if you can trust that we can learn from it and adapt…but I don’t see evidence of that, and neither do the other people who posted here. What we saw on Tuesday was something that’s been on the cards for some considerable time.

You talk as if people were happy and content before the lens game and suddenly became agitated. No…we could have won every game this season and I’d still not be happy because the performances are not conducive to success and experience tells me that you can only play in a mediocre way for so long before it catches up with you.

Last season we had a small blip in October/November time (drawing with Southampton and losing to PSV) and the games before hand indicated that we weren’t playing well but were grinding out wins. Ultimately the big win at home to Forest got us going somewhat again.

This season we’ve had one decent performance one….and it’s not a surprise…we played a team that was massively too open and we took them apart (PSV). Other than that it’s been laboured, toothless and at times directionless. And my point is if you cared to watch games in their entirety, whilst i doubt it would change your mind on the topic it might give you a degree of understanding as to where people are coming from even if you differ with them.

What other response can there be?

I don’t think this guy is a good enough coach to get us where we want to be. He’s far too arrogant and single minded, he doubles down, he falls out with players on a whim meaning they are very publicly discarded and then it becomes hard to attain anything for them by way of transfer recoup.

I think if Arsenal are to meet their potential, and do everything in their power to get a league title in the next few years it will mean moving on the current manager probably no later than the end of the season. I don’t want him spending any more of the club’s money on pet project players that he seems unable to get the best out of.


That’s the other response.

That’s the response I have now, that’s the response I’m certain I will have in May barring a miracle.

And what is that miracle? By which I’d say I was wrong and Arteta deserves to be here after this season. Either winning the title (or being competitive right up to the last game of the season) or making it to at least the semi finals of the Champions league. The money we spent I feel demands no less

Interesting discussion and a lot I agree with from both of you.

HCZ, just for clarity, are you saying that Arteta should be sacked if we don't achieve one of these?

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Either winning the title (or being competitive right up to the last game of the season) or making it to at least the semi finals of the Champions league.

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And Letters, do you have any solid criteria which you'd expect us to meet or Arteta should go?

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Originally Posted by WMUG

Interesting discussion and a lot I agree with from both of you.

HCZ, just for clarity, are you saying that Arteta should be sacked if we don't achieve one of these?



And Letters, do you have any solid criteria which you'd expect us to meet or Arteta should go?

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Yes

And If you think that’s harsh, I point you towards the money that has been spent since 2020.

And the money we spent in the summer should have been enough to push us forward from last season

And given I don’t think he will meet those expectations we should be going all out to have someone ready to sign an agreement with us as soon as he goes. No messing around hunting for a new coach after we’ve got rid

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Originally Posted by WMUG

Interesting discussion and a lot I agree with from both of you.

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What a bloody awful sentence :lol:

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And Letters, do you have any solid criteria which you'd expect us to meet or Arteta should go?

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I think if we fall out of the top 4 after last season and how we've spent then definitely Arteta Out.
It's not the title or bust for me though. I want to see us standing up in games like Sunday. And as I said above, it depends on how other teams do.

I do words goodest <_<

As I say the only thing I take exception to, is the idea that thinking that Arteta is holding us back, is silly because we’ve only lost one game. Again it’s not the issue of how many games we’ve lost, it’s the fact that the loss was wholly unnecessary and down to Arteta picking the wrong players and wrong tactics.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

As I say the only thing I take exception to, is the idea that thinking that Arteta is holding us back, is silly because we’ve only lost one game.

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Once more for the cheap seats - what I find silly is this thread starting up again after one poor result.
But I would note that your dislike of Arteta seems weirdly personal, to me it seems to rob you of objectivity.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

And do you regard finishing 8th as a successful season ?

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I don't think that's the point Mac was making.
But that season is a pretty good example of what I've been talking about.
The first half of the season was probably the worst I've seen since 92/93 - On Christmas Day it was P14 W4 D2 L8. Ouch!
We were 4 points off relegation. The rhetoric after the Everton game which was the last of those games before Christmas was very much that relegation was a possibility and there were questions about whether that lot were up for the fight. Frankly, Arteta should have been sacked after that run. The Chelsea game probably saved his job and the run of results after that was pretty decent.
The end result was 8th place, 6 points off top 4. Is that a successful season by our standards? Clearly not. But neither was it the relegation scrap that some on here had started to fear.

So the point remains - results to date neither place us as Champions Elect nor do they indicate we've got no chance. It's too early. It's possible to think that and also agree there are concerns, ones which will be exacerbated if we lose this weekend.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Once more for the cheap seats - what I find silly is this thread starting up again after one poor result.
But I would note that your dislike of Arteta seems weirdly personal, to me it seems to rob you of objectivity.

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And as I’ve pointed out to you, it’s not about one result…it’s about how that result sharpens the idea that ultimately Arteta is more singularly responsible for defeats than his players are.

I don’t like Arteta at all, in interviews I find him condescending, passive aggressive and the kind of person who I’d think was a massive prick if I knew them in real life

And yeah that can inform some of the hyperbolic rants


But ultimately, none of that would be relevant if I thought he was doing a good job. I’m not ranting about him here…I think he’s had enough time and money to prove himself, to iron out his deficiencies and make sensible signings but after almost four years it’s hard for me to conclude that he will change his ways sufficiently to get us where I think we should be

The point I made was, when is the last time we had a bad or indifferent start and then went on to have a successful season. A successful season isn’t finishing 8th, it isn’t dragging our way into 4th…it’s winning things or being competitive to the end.

As I said the last time that happened was 22 years ago. It’s not a frequent thing…therefore I don’t think it’s silly to argue that a poor/indifferent start indicates a season that probably won’t be a success.

How is that relevant? We haven't had an indifferent start.

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Originally Posted by Letters

How is that relevant? We haven't had an indifferent start.

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And the reason you’re saying that is because you’re watching the highlights not the whole game. You think it’s an insult/snobbery but it’s not…it’s saying you’re calling other people silly because we are just about getting over the line in mostly easy fixtures and oh it’s just one defeat when our limitations get exposed by a side that showed a bit more ambition than others we’ve played.

I think indifferent is actually me being charitable, drawing with Fulham, having our pants pulled down by Tottenham (who managed to beat Liverpool with match official incompetence) and losing to a side that is 15th in the French league is indicative of a poor start. City are in front of us despite losing to Wolves and despite having harder matches on the whole (like away at an in form West Ham side)….we’ve ground out away results to palace and Everton, and had a result against Bournemouth that flatters us due to the award of two penalties)

We’ve had I repeat one good performance all season…in 11 games.

Last season at this point, there were a few performances that were no better than ok, but no real poor performances and there were excellent ones like away at Brentford (the best I’ve seen us play in years) and at home to Spurs.

Last season, our start was a case of setting the standard to where it should be, and this season….no where near that

The reason I'm saying it is the league table.