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You think someone who agrees with you is right?
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He’s from a different era though, I think footballers these days probably need to be micromanaged a bit more because of the emphasis on tactical play and implementing certain plans. Most of the decent coaches tend to be very active in the dugout now and to be honest it seems to be working most of time. I think this behaviour from Arteta has also helped the fans create more of an atmosphere and positive feeling because it feels like he’s there kicking every ball with us.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
You might get the occasional maverick who doesn’t take kindly to authority but players these day are pretty much yes men.
I'm more leaning towards this now, I thought earlier on Arteta was stifling them but tbf i think he's learnt to cut them a bit more slack here and thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
also i think there are some managers who just need to feel involved and so some of it is just hot air, I get the impression a lot of the time players nod and then just do what they'd have done anyway
I haven’t really ever mentioned the touchline antics, and I think people like Richard Keys are just being dickheads over itQuote:
Originally Posted by Letters
But I do think players need to be trusted more.
I think there's something in that - Wenger erred to the other extreme. His whole thing was to trust the players. And I guess you could say it mostly worked but it should be noted that when he arrived with us it was his (at the time) revolutionary fitness and diet regime and knowledge of the worldwide game which gave us the edge. When you're better than everyone else you don't need any particularly fancy tactics to win most games. I'd also note that it's probably part of what cost us in Europe under him when we were facing better teams and did need a more tactical approach to get us over the line. So, like with most things in life, there's a balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Ultimately, I care about results and so far this season we are getting them. The players seem to respond to what he's doing and that's good enough for me. Just because you don't like Arteta, that doesn't mean the players don't. I've just finished working with someone who was a bit of a micromanager and at times it did annoy me. But she was very good and under her the team were very productive so, overall, I can live with that irritation. While the results are flowing that's probably more important for the players, it's certainly more important for the fans.
Elsewhere you said:
I mean, I'd suggest that could be said for every manager in the history of football. Even in The Invincibles season there was that week when we crashed out of the two big cups and when we were trailing to Liverpool at half time I did start to think we were going to blow the lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I get that you don't like the fella - although I'd suggest once again that you are overestimating your ability to evaluate someone's personality from scraps you've seen on certain TV shows. You seem to think you have very detailed knowledge about the state of his marriage, for example, from literally a few minutes of a highly edited reality show. Not that I'm saying the people who make the show had any particular agenda to portray him in a certain way, but the amount of screentime Arteta's wife had in it was so small, to think you can have any meaningful insight into their relationship from that is a massive stretch. It's like the people on The Traitors who say "I know when someone is lying". Do ya? Well why do you keep voting for other faithfuls then, ya muppets!
Your basic argument in this thread is "I don't like Arteta and we're gonna blow it", to which the only sensible response right now is "well, let's wait and see". I must admit I'm struggling to see us winning the league, but so long as we push City and Liverpool all the way I think that will be enough for me. We've spent big and we all raised an eyebrow at some of our dealings so Arteta has to deliver, but I don't think it's the title or bust for me. The other contenders are too strong and there are too fine lines in some games for that to be the only metric. The game at the Ethiad is key. I'd suggest our results in those big games so far this season has shown a bit of a shift this season. Liverpool have only dropped 4 points at home all season, two of those were us. They've only lost 2 league games all season, one of those was us.
I would note that your predictions this season so far have been patchy at best. I admittedly had a wobbly myself when Arsenal did after Christmas. I started to doubt our Top 4 credentials, having chided you and others for doing so after other setbacks. But, looking back. Top 4 has never been in doubt - Top 3 hasn't been really. Liverpool, City and us are clearly the best 3 sides. Will last year's experience and the signings to bolster the squad get us over the line this time? I wouldn't bet on it. The other two are too strong, their managers are too good. But so long as we keep pushing as hard as we have this calendar year I reckon that's good enough.
My predictions have been patchy at best. The early performances looked like spelling disaster but ultimately we went for a long while where the results were coming even when the performances weren’t. There are some caveats to that, I actually think we played better at Anfield than the pundits suggested we did. I don’t think we lucked out a draw there, we fully deserved one.
But I think (and I don’t think anyone would disagree with me strongly) that the period March 31st - April 27th represents by far the toughest test we will have faced this season.
Four very hard away league matches taken collectively (City, Brighton, Wolves and Spurs) coupled with should we get past Porto a champions league quarter final tie. For most of that period we will be playing twice in a week.
This will test Arteta’s ability to rotate his squad, to deal with setbacks (because we aren’t going to win every game in that period…that would be a tough ask even if you had city’s squad).
But what I’ve said is that we’ve spent enough money to have the squad to be in a position come May 1st where we are either still in contention in the league (maximum 4points behind Top spot) or actually make it through to the semi finals of the European cup.
If come May 1st we are both out of the champions league and whilst mathematically still not out of the title race but have no realistic chance of winning (despite being in a position where of our five remaining games, four of them will be at home) then I don’t think it’s unreasonable to conclude Arteta has failed.
Of course with the league there are factors in play as to whether Liverpool or City win their games. It’s in our power to go second this weekend even if not top. So I accept that our results are relative to the results these other teams get, but we should assume that city and Liverpool will win fixtures where they aren’t playing us or each other so that’s what we need to focus on doing.
It’s my contention that in two previous Aprils where the difficult run of fixtures have come, we’ve folded
In April-May 2022 we won five and lost five
In April-May 2023 we won four, drew three and lost three
My contention isn’t Sack Arteta now because I think we will do likewise in our upcoming fixtures, it’s unless he avoids a similar collapse (which I don’t think he will) I’d let him go at the end of the season.
Hopefully my predictions will prove patchy again (not for Arteta’s sake though)
That’s a fairly reasonable position.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
He’s been allowed to spend big to bolster the squad to the point where we should be able to cope better with the business end of a season. And last year’s experience should help us, we should be better equipped to deal with the mental pressure.
So if we fold again then I’d agree Arteta has probably taken us as far as he can. He’s made us in to credible contenders again for the first time in ages, which he deserves some credit for.
I wouldn’t immediately know who we should replace him with and it is a risk to replace a manager, given this is very much his squad now. But the buck does stop with him as you indicated previously.
The main thing I will say in Arteta’s favour is I’m probably just about more confident that we can get a decent result against another big team than I would be with Emery or with Wenger in the last few years.
Wenger just wasn’t interested tactically and Emery didn’t know what his best team was
My main frustration with Arteta is lack of rotation, I think in two thirds of games you absolutely pick your best side, but we have the option to tweak that slightly (Today there are a couple of players he could potentially rest without affecting the overall strength of the team). There are three players in our first XI who I think need a rest…Saliba, Rice and Saka. I don’t think they need a rest because their performance levels have dropped, but because they are our three best players this season and I’d rather give them a rest when they are fit, rather than have to plan around them if one of them breaks down.
Unfortunately even with the break of 19 days between Porto and Man City, these guys are all going to be on international duty for some pointless friendly match. So we need to be careful how we use these players in April….for me Arteta should have rested all three at various times during the season a) to give them a break and b) to give backup options minutes so they aren’t thrown in at the deep end if they are ending up starting.
Whilst I think the collapse last season was 50% psychological, there’s simply no doubt that Saliba especially is so integral to how we play in terms of being able to hold a high defensive line that it just made everything that much harder. That and we often see Saka at less than half the effectiveness he shows at the beginning of the season around April (the crunch time so to speak)
I know people who go on about players being pussies and compare it to days where players could easily play 50-60 games a season….unfortunately I also think Arteta labours under that illusion. But Apples and Bowling balls, the game is played at a completely different intensity….opponents like Sheffield United and Burnley are outliers…usually you don’t get easy games in the premier league, you’re made to work for it.
Arteta has done some rotation, and there are games equally where if the lineup is unchanged that makes sense (although I think if we’d played Jorginho from the start against Porto…i think we’d have had more control in midfield and probably won let alone drawn). But the three players I’ve mentioned, play come rain or shine. I’d add Gabriel to that list but as much as I like Gabriel (and I do, he’d be right near the top of the best signings Arteta has made) he probably isn’t as crucial to us as the other three (not far off though). I also of course put my hands up and say that I’m singing a vastly different tune about Rice, he’s not my kind of player…I still think he lacks the engine and the technical ability to be world class. But even though I still wouldn’t have bought him, it would be ridiculous to claim he’s been anything other than integral to us…he’s clearly an intelligent footballer, his work rate is immense and really if not for the fact that it would cause dressing room issues I would make him captain instead of Odegaard because he’s a leader….there’s a bit of the Tony Adams about him without the Alcoholism.
I have clearly a record of being negative, from apocalyptically so earlier on in the season to now where I still work under the assumption that it will go south for us in April. However I’m not looking for converts, I definitely hope I’m wrong and it’s different this time
As for who could replace Arteta. Outside of Pep and Klopp (neither of whom we would get in a million years) there isn’t an obvious candidate who you could say with certainty would do better. But it’s always a gamble, I don’t think we quite want to be as heedless as Chelsea or United are with coaches, but I do think it’s reasonable with any coach to say you get a three year contract and unless something goes disastrously wrong you get the whole three years to build something but if either we haven’t won something substantive or look like we might do so in the next season or two you move them on at the end of that time.
I’m more cautious than I was previously over flavour of the month coaches. I think it’s unquestionable that Xabi Alonso has done a stellar job with Leverkusen. At the risk of being harsh, that Leverkusen team is dog shit….if a premier league team had the same squad Alonso had to work with, they’d be battling relegation.
I’d say Forest in 17th has a better squad than Leverkusen….so it’s exceptional what he’s achieving. However that comes with the caveat that Bayern’s 11 titles is reflective of what has become the dirge of depth of quality in the Bundesliga. There’s quite a few Bundesliga teams that for me would struggle in the championship let alone the Premier league. Also Bayern themselves are simply not the same team they were 3-4 years ago, there’s five players Kane, Musiala, Upemecano, Davies and Gnabry that id probably take at Arsenal. This compared to 2020 when that team was up there with Liverpool and City in terms of quality.
That’s not to say Xabi Alonso wouldn’t be able to do a good job in the premier league, but at the same time I’m not sure even if Arteta was to go that he’d be a great fit for us. He’s more like Diego Simeone in style (although maybe a bit unfair, Simeone is a cunt who gets Atleti to play the most atrociously negative tactics), in that they are far more of a counter attacking team…although that could be a reflection more on the players he has to work with.
Temperament wise, he’s far more like Arteta than Klopp (by that I mean more of an introvert)
So the answer is, I fully accept there isn’t an obvious replacement. But my feeling is that I think to stick indefinitely if I’m right about Arteta because of the fear of “be careful what you wish for” which froze us into inaction with AW, would be an equally regressive move
Also I didn’t factor in fa cup semi final weekend, which Wolves will probably be involved with
So possibly having to play five league games in May because of this
And this is the issue. It's easy to point out problems but more difficult to come up with solutions. There comes a time of course when you have to accept that a manager has taken a team as far as they can, and take the risk with someone else to try to attain an ultimate goal. But that risk needs to be approached sensibly. I think we as football fans can be tempted to believe that the next new thing will lead to the success we crave. But there is no way to assess the huge number of variables that are required for this to happen. By and large (bar a few exceptions) football success tends to be difficult, if not impossible to predict. Who before this season would have backed Alonso to be running away with the Bundesliga? Who predicted that our ex manager would be doing so well in the EPL? Many people were even writing Klopp off last season...its the unpredictablility that makes football so complelling. You only need to look at Manure and Chelsea to see how trying to chase the next high can come undone.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
So with Arsenal the question has to be whether Arteta is showing the ability to improve. Is his judgment sound? Does he have the qualities likely to achieve success? I'd say that to a great extent, he has already shown this. And it would take a complete collapse this season (not failure to win anything) to justify not letting him have at least another season to try to win something big, IMO.
Well I think I’ve stated clearly what my criteria are for keeping Arteta beyond this season and that’s simply to still be in contention for either the champions league or the premier league (no more than 4 points behind the leader) by May 1st
My rationale for saying that we should move him on is the belief that we will not be in contention for either by then.
I would also say that it’s not a case of having the expectation that a replacement will do a better job…its a bit like an election where if people vote against the incumbent it’s because they believe the incumbent hasn’t done a good job and they’d prefer to give a chance to someone else.
I think that's actually a fair criterion in and of itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/68551133.amp
Conceição has form for this, in the recent past he’s accused Guardiola and Tuchel of using insulting language against him.
Which suggests to me that either he’s a liar as well as a sore loser, or that he’s hallucinating this and he’s high functioning schizophrenic
who cares, Conceicao is history for us, bye bye loser
I’m not bothered I just find it peculiar behaviour.
The most generous I can probably be to the claim is that Hijo de puta (son of a bitch) is commonly used to express disdain/frustration and that Conceicao has chosen to take this as directed towards him
But even if that’s the case, get a life you pansy
What a prick. It was immensely satisfying to see him and his spoiler team run out of town.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Felt it was good to keep this thread dusted off and ready to go
Arteta has done really well. Some seriously good shit from him in changing the Wenger bore ball into something watchable. We've been in the hunt but we're carrying crippling disadvantages. There is a loser mentality that has been with this club for 2 decades. It stemmed from turning defeat into a Top 4 Trophy. That's when the club embraced losing. It made us one of the "other" clubs that can do a Crystal Palace vs Liverpool, but, come on dudes, we're not actually winning anything. We're the entertainment, NOT the challenger. What more do you expect Arteta to do if Arsenal is happy being a Top 4 triumphant cash-cow, get in there bank account, bring me the sweet ECL revenue, club? Money! Money! Money! I'm cumming!
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
In case of emergency bump thread!
No Arteta has not done a great job
He’s spent a lot of the clubs money to try and make us a Man City lite. The fucker wouldn’t know a counter attack if he pissed on one.
And I’m sorry but the Tippity Tappity bullshit you decry is very much still alive under Arteta, the only difference is we added a different dimension to our play with set piece play
The guy isn’t fit to lace Wenger’s shoes
Yeah he has, you dick. Great defence. Best in the league. Best goal difference, which means we are scoring. He's done the shit that was expected of him. But it's that voodoo loser streak that Wenger baked into the club. Not sure anyone can overcome that attention to failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
This argument is beyond you. You don't have enough brain cells to hold the last 20 years and then overlay the response to those 20 years. I do, in a blink. So you will always view it in the short term and be convinced of your conclusions. And i will never be able to convince you your conclusions are based on immediate data. Therefore no point arguing, you aren't capable of understanding the parameters , context or scope of the argument. Don't fret, there are many people like you. The majority. Which is why democracy sucks.
Whatever good he has done, today was a massive disappointment. It happens every fucking year when we are in a good position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Now who’s becoming emotionalQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
You’re the classic example of how human beings see patterns in everything
Wenger can’t hurt you anymore. The only people that are still at the club from Wenger’s time are The Kroenkes ..otherwise known as the people who have been bankrolling our transfer splurges.
No more Gazidis, no more Hill Wood….even Gunnersaurus was handed his cards
This team is Arteta’s
The goalkeeper and back four are his purchases
The midfield are his purchases
That useless Jesus is his purchase. He gets the Credit but he also takes the responsibility.
That's FAR from emotional. Just stating the obvious. If you think Arteta should be sacked you are clearly and idiot. Yes? What other Arsenal manager has had us in a genuine title hunt in the last month of the season? And he should be sacked for that? Quite obviously you re an idiot. You admitted it when you posted. So, be genuine and please post the fact your are an idiot in the response. Do you have the balls to do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
The last month of the season is MayQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
You might think we are still going to be in with a chance in May. I don’t
He should be sacked because he’s taken as far as he can. April has continually been a minefield for him, 2022, 2023 and now this season.
If you got over your weird Wenger obsession, I take you calling me an idiot as a compliment.
I don't think you can blame Wenger or anyone else for Top 4 becoming an aim in PL football - it's absolutely not just us, fans of all teams in the top half who aren't in serious title contention talk about Top 4. I literally just finished a conversation with a Spurs fan who has a dilemma this week. He wants Arsenal out of the CL but he needs us to progress so 5th place gets a CL place. The CL brings the prestige and the money to compete. You're either in that select group of clubs or you're not, and everyone wants to be. It shouldn't be like this, but it's part of modern football. I think we are fairly aligned that a lot of things in modern football are shit, and this is one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
But I can agree that Wenger and Arsenal in general prioritised it too highly. They might argue that we had to keep qualifying for the CL in order to pay the mortgage on the stadium and we didn't have the finances to seriously compete beyond that.
And I do think Arteta has done a good job. Yes, he's spent big but he's got us from a side who were struggling to finish top 4 to a side in genuine contention for the title. We shat our pants today but we've passed a lot of tests this year - 4 points from Liverpool and City, getting to the CL Quarters for the first time in 14 years. The run since Christmas has been very impressive and put us right in the title race. We have looked like a side who have matured this season and looked more up for the fight at the business end of the season. Today did feel like "same old Arsenal" but Liverpool shat their pants too against a worse side than we were playing. It happens.
But Wenger left in 2018, this is largely Arteta's side now and the back office staff aren't Wenger's either. When a new government is elected they always blame the previous one for a lot of the mess but the longer the new one are in power the less valid that reasoning becomes. I do sense more of a commitment to compete at the top level. Today was a big setback and it's not one I expected us to recover from, so well oiled is the City machine. But we know how those fuckers got there too. Take them out of the equation and we'd have been champions last year and could well have been this year too.
So we go back to the question I asked. WHO replaces him and WHAT will the godhead bring? Only crazy peoole jump in the hope some randomness might save them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I’m one of these crazy people who thinks that a coach should be given three years and if they’ve not achieved anything of note in that time, it’s time to move them onQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
This thread contains the parameters I set by which Arteta should be kept on beyond May, and unless something big changes he’s going to fail those tests.
What you are harping on about is some nebulous mindset that can’t be defeated because it’s a phantom projection.
But who would I bring in? Who cares? I don’t think there’s a magician who can perform miracles. It’s about ok chief you’ve had your chance…you fucked it up…next please
So, yada, yada, WHO? WHO? And WHY?
I guess the question is whether they are reasonable tests.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I mean, he's made us genuine title contenders which we haven't been since 2008. Yes, we've spent money to get there but you pretty much have to in football these days and clubs like Chelsea and Utd have shown you can splash money around to very little effect. What I want to see is a club heading in the right direction. I do feel I've seen progress this year - we've passed tests we failed last season. Today was a worrying relapse but Villa are chasing Top 4 and the sort of run we've been on can't last forever. If we completely fall away now then I may join you on the bandwaggon but if we do miss out but make City work for it then I think I can live with that. I do fear given our remaining fixtures that City could romp home and we could finish a poor 3rd, but let's see I guess.
I’m not prepared to cry about a run of 10 wins from 11 ending. That’s a better run than we managed this time last year. Plus taking 4 points off City and Liverpool is something that we all deemed essential if we had designs on winning the league.
I will hold off on judgement for now because the season is still alive. I have my suspicions at how the next few weeks will pan out but I don’t blame anyone for thinking “here we go again”.
Klopp is free in the summer. Time to switch it up?
Klopp won't manage another premiership team he'll probably take a year off and take over at Leverkusen the following season when Alonso takes over when the person who takes over the Liverpool job is sacked :good:
This is a stupid thread.
He will not be sacked for a few years yet.
And that’s not a good thingQuote:
Originally Posted by dostoy
The thing that sets off big alarm bells for me is how confident I was yesterday morning and then how immediately nervous I was after the Liverpool results - you felt that too. And it seems the players did as well. We haven't lost a league game this calendar year - in fact, we've won the lot apart from City away which was a very creditable result. The minute Liverpool lose and we have a real opportunity to take the title race by the scruff of the neck we blow it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Obviously we were playing a good team, not for nothing are they battling for Top 4, outside the top 3 they're probably the best of the rest. But still, City despatched them at home recently with a minimum of fuss.
I'll say one thing, there are fine lines in football, we missed a few chances in the first half, Martinez made a good save from Odegard. On another day one of those goes in and we might well have won the game. But while we've passed some big tests this year, we're still not quite able to get over the line. I don't think Arteta should be sacked right now, but I wonder whether he can land a big trophy. Not that I would immediately know who could come in and do so.
I think Rice said they didn't know the Liverpool result until after the Villa game, not sure if that's good or bad really
That's interesting. I did wonder if they'd deliberately not found out so it didn't affect them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Although I wonder in practice how possible that is these days.