Mourinho in?

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Originally Posted by Arsene Wenger

Well you can agree or disagree all you like but it doesn't change the facts.

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No, it doesn't. I gave the facts.

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Originally Posted by Arsene Wenger

No top manager would swap their titles and European trophies for Wenger's 2 FA cups and 2nd in the league.

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Why are you comparing those 2 things? A valid comparison to 2 FA cups and 2nd in the league would be how the Chelsea have done under Mourinho in the equivalent timeframe.
1 title, 1 league Cup, 1 embarrassing slide to a relegation battle. I guess Mourinho still edges it because of the title, but it's not a huge difference.

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He hasn't won or even competed properly for a major honour since 2006.

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That's not true anyway as we have been in the title mix on a couple of occasions, but the FA Cup is obviously a major honour. As there's no way of definitively deciding what is and isn't a major honour though, there's no point in going round and round that circle again.

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Maureen said any normal club would have sacked a manager who had failed over such a protracted period

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Wenger should arguably have been sacked during the 8 years, he was a safe pair of hands during the stadium move, keeping us top 4 in that era was pretty impressive but the lack of trophies is pretty damning. I don't think many clubs would have sacked their manager in the last couple of seasons though when the new money started rolling in and the new signings started to make a difference.

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It would be nice to think we stuck by Wenger because we are the opposite of the chavs and have a bit of class. Well people can believe that or not - again, it doesn't change the facts. Money.

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I think it's a bit of both. He was a safe pair of hands financially and he's probably been the best thing for the long term future of the club. If you have loads of money and want short term success and long term acrimony then Mourinho's your man. No thanks.

Addendum

The FA Cup is listed 8th in this list, obviously it's all subjective but they say they've based it on "their global reputation and sporting challenge."

http://www.sportyghost.com/top-10-be...-of-the-world/

4 of the ones above it are International competitions,
There's the Europa League and CL, fair enough.
And there's the Copa Libertadores which apparently is a South American equivalent of the CL which we probably will never win under Wenger.

It's the only domestic cup competition listed.

Many fans are making any comment without considering where Arsene Wenger has brought Arsenal from . Wenger is the archetect of the actual Arsenal that so many people are proud of . Before him Arsenal were winning titles and cups just like Aston Villan , Blackburn or Nottigham Forest were . In fact it takes more than just winning titles to be a huge club.
When Wenger was competing with Alex Ferguson , he woke up and realised he was been distracted by winning while Manchester United were building a football empire like Real Madrid , Barcelona , Bayern Munich ..etc..That was a waking call . He had to change his tactics . He was no longer thinking of just winning a title ,which is a short term project ,but he was dreaming of an Arsenal of the same level as Real Madrid or Barcelona . ,
With Wenger , Arsenal has one of the most morden stadiums . The fan base has tremendously increased worldwide . The income is increasing which is allowing the manager to have more transfer kitty . Arsene managed to maintain Arsenal amongst the big ones without ruining the finances of the club . People can be frustrated with Wenger today but he is making the job of the next manager easier . He deserves respect for his great job from true fans .

There goes the "true fans" thing again.

The money guys must be laughing their cocks off at the true fans who point at all the cash rolling in for the likes of Kroenke and saying hey, wow, what a job we have done. No trophies, a string of embarrassing humiliations at the hands of our so-called rivals but fuck, just look at those sponsorship deals!

It's true, Wenger has done a marvellous job in terms of building the club's stature globally. I doubt anyone would say otherwise. But that has become his primary role and the football has taken a back seat. Every other manager gets judged by their results on the pitch. Not Wenger. He's judged by a whole different set of standards and this has allowed him to linger on when any other manager would have been sacked given his failure to leverage the resources he's had at his disposal into tangible footballing success. It's also true to say he has prepared the ground well for the next manager. And that's the point. When are we getting the manager who is going to shift the focus back to the pitch?

Wenger could have been kicked upstairs years ago to handle all that stuff that seems dear to him, and good on him as he genuinely seems to have a regard for the club in terms of its longevity and stability. So what's he doing in the manager's role? It's like the mechanic driving the race car, brilliant car, superbly engineered, but the guy can't drive. Get a fucking driver in.

Letters, I'm not joking, I think somebody criticised Wenger on another thread and you missed it. Can't recall what thread. But it'll probably be on your alert dashboard.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

No, it doesn't. I gave the facts.

Why are you comparing those 2 things? A valid comparison to 2 FA cups and 2nd in the league would be how the Chelsea have done under Mourinho in the equivalent timeframe.
1 title, 1 league Cup, 1 embarrassing slide to a relegation battle. I guess Mourinho still edges it because of the title, but it's not a huge difference.


That's not true anyway as we have been in the title mix on a couple of occasions, but the FA Cup is obviously a major honour. As there's no way of definitively deciding what is and isn't a major honour though, there's no point in going round and round that circle again.



Wenger should arguably have been sacked during the 8 years, he was a safe pair of hands during the stadium move, keeping us top 4 in that era was pretty impressive but the lack of trophies is pretty damning. I don't think many clubs would have sacked their manager in the last couple of seasons though when the new money started rolling in and the new signings started to make a difference.


I think it's a bit of both. He was a safe pair of hands financially and he's probably been the best thing for the long term future of the club. If you have loads of money and want short term success and long term acrimony then Mourinho's your man. No thanks.

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You often mention the stadium move & subsequent costs as an potential excuse for Wenger's failure to win major trophies. Ofcourse, I would agree 100% that if the move restricted our transfer chest for the following decade then it was bound to have an effect but I quite clearly remember when Fitz & Wenger were on TV during the Emirates build, the only things being discussed were that the stadium move was being done to make us the driving force of European football. At subsequent AGM, ofcourse the most obvious question from any fan was the effect the move would have on our finances but unless I am mistaken ( & I dont suggest i heard everything that was said ) we were told the move would increase our ability to spend becuase we only needed something like 37,000 at home games to fund the stadium repayments, the rest of the revenue which included new kit & TV deals would mean we could continue to compete. This was key in most peoples eyes because why would you want to build a new stadium if you didnt have the money to sustain success - it would quickly backfire on you with dwindling attendances & losing out on the best kit/sponsorship deals.
However what has happened since the move. Our long standing shareholders who wouldn't dream of selling their shares ( handed down through the generations) & were going to steer us to the promise land of European glory - amazingly decided to sell up to a yank due to the unbelievable fact that our value had dramatically increased with the new stadium as an asset & the additional new revenue that came with it. Who would have ever thought it!!!
Since the move we have not competed for our domestic trophy ( we were winning it or finishing 2nd before the move ) - we have got nowhere near the CL final ( we made a final & were regularly getting into qtr finals before the move ).
Forgetting the corrupt Spanish pair & the success they have had - you only have to look at Bayern ( who by the way were not winning the German title regularly when we were at Highbury ) & other teams such as Dortmund & Athletico, to see where we actually are against teams who haven't moved to stadiums that are doubling the capacity & increasing the revenue. You could argue that many teams in the PL are closer to us now than they were 10 years ago.
I agree with you that Wenger was " a safe pair of hands" to take us through the post stadium build, winning at a level that guaranteed us the riches of CL football but not spending enough or in the right areas to compete properly - but was " a safe pair of hands", finishing 4th & then only getting through the CL group stages what he & Fitz had promised stood in the brand new directors box at project Emirates. The promise of European greatness spurring us on to go & pay way over the odds for season tickets in comparison to other top European sides.
Leicester City have proved this year that money spent on quality players in the right areas backed up by others who are hard working & gutsy will win football games. City & Chelsea can only have so many players in a squad. With this in mind, I believe project Emirates should be viewed as the con trick that it was - not as an excuse for Mr Wenger - who by the way had a nice few shares himself.

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No trophies

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Did you stop watching in 2013? :unsure:

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Originally Posted by Arsene Wenger

Every other manager gets judged by their results on the pitch. Not Wenger.

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Of course he does. The board's clear target for Wenger was top 4 football. He's delivered that every year and now he's started delivering trophies. This is speculation, obviously, but if we'd started a season as poorly as Mourinho has this year I don't think he'd have kept his job.
If we fail to push on now the money is there then he should be sacked. He probably should have been sacked at some points during the barren spell but with the gap between the money we had available and the money City, Chelsea and even Utd were splashing around it's completely unrealistic to have expected us to maintain the level we were at in Wenger's first 8 years with us. That doesn't absolve him of blame, we should have picked up a few trophies in that era, but IMO he's got more right than wrong.

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When are we getting the manager who is going to shift the focus back to the pitch?

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Well, Wenger has started delivering trophies, were I his boss I would at least give him this season to show he can push on for the biggest prizes now the money is available for us to properly compete. If he doesn't then he should go.

It's been said before, but there's a big difference between a manager and a head coach: Wenger is the former; Mourinho is the latter.

If there's a debate to be had here, then it's whether we still need a manager, going forward, or whether we're now set up well enough as a club to be looking at head coaches, with fewer, but more focussed responsibilities? That's an entirely reasonable ask.

But I don't think it's fair to be suggesting that Wenger hasn't been doing his job properly? Up until the last 2 or 3 years, we genuinely needed a manager more than a head coach, and when it comes to running so many aspects of one club (not to mention doing it on a budget in the age of billionaire owners and obscene spending), then Wenger is one of the best 'managers' there's ever been. Mourinho, in the same situation, might have got us a couple of quick trophies, but can you picture him steering us through nearly 10 years of financial restrictions and book-balancing? He'd have ruined us within 2, thinking of nothing but what was best for him, and then left us with the wreckage...

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Originally Posted by Arsene Wenger

There goes the "true fans" thing again.

The money guys must be laughing their cocks off at the true fans who point at all the cash rolling in for the likes of Kroenke and saying hey, wow, what a job we have done. No trophies, a string of embarrassing humiliations at the hands of our so-called rivals but fuck, just look at those sponsorship deals!

It's true, Wenger has done a marvellous job in terms of building the club's stature globally. I doubt anyone would say otherwise. But that has become his primary role and the football has taken a back seat. Every other manager gets judged by their results on the pitch. Not Wenger. He's judged by a whole different set of standards and this has allowed him to linger on when any other manager would have been sacked given his failure to leverage the resources he's had at his disposal into tangible footballing success. It's also true to say he has prepared the ground well for the next manager. And that's the point. When are we getting the manager who is going to shift the focus back to the pitch?

Wenger could have been kicked upstairs years ago to handle all that stuff that seems dear to him, and good on him as he genuinely seems to have a regard for the club in terms of its longevity and stability. So what's he doing in the manager's role? It's like the mechanic driving the race car, brilliant car, superbly engineered, but the guy can't drive. Get a fucking driver in.

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A fan must be motivated by Irrational enthusiasm . A fan must not change his mind or his philosophy about their team . When you are a fan you support your team no matter what . Winning or losing , you are behind your team . A fan is a short cut of " fanatic" .If you ask anyone what is fanatic you will get a strait answer .

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

You often mention the stadium move & subsequent costs as an potential excuse for Wenger's failure to win major trophies. Ofcourse, I would agree 100% that if the move restricted our transfer chest for the following decade then it was bound to have an effect but I quite clearly remember when Fitz & Wenger were on TV during the Emirates build, the only things being discussed were that the stadium move was being done to make us the driving force of European football.

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Did they say when? Maybe they meant longer term. Or maybe they did think it would immediately push us on and didn't account for or foresee the way the billionaires coming in would inflate the transfer market and salaries.
Our ability to spend probably did go up after the stadium move but we still couldn't compete with what Chelsea and City were doing. Without those two I reckon we'd have won a title or two in the last 10 years.

Long term the stadium move was obviously a good and necessary thing to do. Maybe the board didn't foresee how it would affect us in an exponentially increasing transfer market, but that doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do or a big con trick.

We tied ourselves into long term financial deals - it's easy to look back with 20:20 hindsight and see that as a mistake as subsequent deals at other clubs dwarfed it, but it was a way of mitigating the risk that comes with a long term loan. Now the new financial deals are in place we have started spending folding money and it's had an immediate impact in terms of trophies. Whether we'll push on and compete with teams like Bayern...well, City and Chelsea have struggled to despite the money they've been throwing around so it's easier said than done, but the stadium move gives us a much better chance than had we stayed at Highbury, why do you think so many other clubs have also either moved stadium or are looking to?