Should Wenger go?

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Originally Posted by GB.

I will. I'll be boring the shit out of my grandchildren about some of the football I've seen.

Which is what makes what is happening now, even harder to stomach. Someone - even if it is Dein has got to convince Wenger to go. I expect it to happen at the end of the season.

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Did you see him yestersday looking all dejected and what not, does not look like a man who has any fight left im him, imo he will be gone in the summer he really will, id be suprised if he is here in july.

George Graham thinks he might have finished at the Arsenal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17065874

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Another slight cause for concern is that Wenger will probably have a say in who is successor should be, I mean he approved the appointment of Gazidis didn't he. Fancy that, choosing your own boss. :wacko:

Dragan Stojkovic is rumoured to have been earmarked, apparently he's a mini-Wenger. Spookily also currently managing the club in Japan Wenger did before he joined us.

I understand the clubs self-sustaining policy, it's rammed down our throats enough times, but I really hope when Wenger does leave, the club back the new manager with some funds even if it means taking a hit on the profits for one year. The new guy has to be given a chance to compete. Wenger spent some relatively large amounts during his first 4-5 years to build his team, so hopefully that is the case for his successor.

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Not really a concern i mean SAF is having a say to who will suceed him, so don't see the problem with wenger doing the same. Don't mean the new manager will be a Wenger clone etc. Its The board who will have he final say anyways.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Another cause for concern is that Wenger will probably have a say in who is successor should be, I mean he approved the appointment of Gazidis didn't he. Fancy that, choosing your own boss. :wacko:

Dragan Stojkovic is rumoured to have been earmarked, apparently he's a mini-Wenger. Spookily also currently managing the club in Japan Wenger did before he joined us. It's just not what we need right now.

I understand the clubs self-sustaining policy, it's rammed down our throats enough times, but I really hope when Wenger does leave, the club back the new manager with some funds even if it means taking a hit on the profits for one year. The new guy has to be given a chance to compete. Wenger spent some relatively large amounts during his first 4-5 years to build his team, so hopefully that is the case for his successor. Otherwise the cycle will just go on and on.

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http://l.yimg.com/a/p/sp/editorial_i...ign_minime.jpg

Yep, I've been drinkin hot whiskey.

Gazidis just got back from Kamino where he's been overseeing the development of the Wenger Clone Army.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

No doubting the respect for Wenger will always be there and for what he's done for us. The very fact we see 4th place and going out in the CL knockouts as a flop says it all. All good things don't last forever though and Wenger is yesterdays man now, Football has moved on from 1998 and he just doesn't cut it anymore for me. If ever there was a manager living off reputation alone it has to be Arsene Wenger.

The club is stuck in a turgid cycle that remarkably repeats itself every season, it is very draining as a supporter to know exactly where the club is going wrong and to see nothing done about it. The fact my interest and emotional attachment to Arsenal has waned over the past 2 years tells me that something is broken.

It is very obvious that the club needs something radical to happen if it is going to compete at the top again.

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Exactly what I would have posted. He set a high standard the even he, AW, cannot maintain anymore. Also, would like to add to it the fact that AW has bred a culture of mediocrity at the club by bringing in average players and hyping them up to be superstars, when they are really just not good enough. That psychological theory has finally come back to haunt him over the past years.

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

Not really a concern i mean SAF is having a say to who will suceed him, so don't see the problem with wenger doing the same. Don't mean the new manager will be a Wenger clone etc. Its The board who will have he final say anyways.

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Exactly and the board will probably go for someone who they think will be happy to work under the self-sustaining policy and make a profit every year.

Also, serious GW scares me.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Also, serious GW scares me.

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It's not often I'll make a serious thread, but the results of the poll are overwhelming.

Oh yes, lets make a knee jerk poll after a big defeat.

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Originally Posted by Grimandi's Perm

It's not often I'll make a serious thread, but the results of the poll are overwhelming.

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Funny and serious, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1Y6PchDYfw

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

George Graham thinks he might have finished at the Arsenal

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17065874

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Graham, makes a good point tbh, Wenger is still a good manager, However you'd feel he needs a new challenge, something that will get him motivated for footie not Blance sheets.

I really think he believes what he is doing is in the best intrest of the club, But is still subborn to admit his ways are wrong. Even though he has a lil this season.

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Originally Posted by AKBapologist

Oh yes, lets make a knee jerk poll after a big defeat.

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So you want him to stay?

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Originally Posted by Ach

So you want him to stay?

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It is a fair point in so much that these polls normally follow a loss. BUT I reckon it is more kneejerk to post a poll like this after a win.

The shift is clear - most Arsenal fans want change and it can't be manifested better than by changing the Manager. Even if our transfer policy remains static, we'll see a change in tactics and more hopefully, mentality.

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Originally Posted by GB.

It is a fair point in so much that these polls normally follow a loss. BUT I reckon it is more kneejerk to post a poll like this after a win.

The shift is clear - most Arsenal fans want change and it can't be manifested better than by changing the Manager. Even if our transfer policy remains static, we'll see a change in tactics and more hopefully, mentality.

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True, Like many have said freshness is needed, we may not win the league for another 5 years with a new manager or even win a trophy, but to see us playing a diffrent way would be worth it, if we are doing the basics right.

End of the day everyone has to go at somepoint, even labour got kicked out afther 13 years, what makes Wenger think he has the right to stay longer then he should.

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Originally Posted by ItsMe

Yes, lost respect for the guy the moment he started with his serial bullsh*t and also proceeded to belittle the fans.

I've found some of the cr*p he's come out with unacceptable, you have to earn respect and he did, but some of the things he's done in recent years have had the opposite effect.

He's really spoilt what he achieved in the early days in my eyes which is a shame, but there you go.

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:gp:
Respect has to be earnt, but it can also be lost.

Wenger is just a bloke doing a job (badly) after all, he's not god ffs!

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Originally Posted by Jeebus

:gp:
Respect has to be earnt, but it can also be lost.

Winger is just a bloke doing a job (badly) after all, he's not god ffs!

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No he isnt, Dennis Bergkamp is

:bow:

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Originally Posted by GB.

It is a fair point in so much that these polls normally follow a loss. BUT I reckon it is more kneejerk to post a poll like this after a win.

The shift is clear - most Arsenal fans want change and it can't be manifested better than by changing the Manager. Even if our transfer policy remains static, we'll see a change in tactics and more hopefully, mentality.

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Not if Wenger has a say in his successor then its the same old shit.

We need someone who can change everything about the team, from their attitude, mentality, their bottle etc all of which is sadly lacking under Wenger and getting a mini Wenger wont do us any good at all

Who are the 3 who said no?

Like Fats said, id love to know why not.

What do they see in Wenger that makes them want to keep him? Do they genuinely see him turning it around despite all the evidence to the contrary? Or is it simply a case of undying loyalty?

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Originally Posted by Ach

Who are the 3 who said no?Like Fats said, id love to know why not.What do they see in Wenger that makes them want to keep him? Do they genuinely see him turning it around despite all the evidence to the contrary? Or is it simply a case of undying loyalty?

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I reckon the other two were letters and GB despite saying otherwise :ninja:

Out of sheer respectful love, they just couldn't help themselves :lol:

Bollocks, our players arn't good enough. We pay through the nose and we get shit in return. I want ticket prices lowered or for the club to actually invest in the fucking squad. Because the relationship between money and performance is so blindingly obvious, that unless we litterally sign SAF, there is a better chance at doing worse if we continue the whole unsustainable sustainability policy we've been doing.

Oh, it's just Wenger who doesn't want to spend? So sack him and who ever comes next will sign players? Ask yourself this, how long do you think AVB will be at chelsea? If Macini was trophyless this season? Do they just magically walk away all by themselves if they fuck up for long enough? And where the fuck is Stan?? He's been to 1 home game since taking over, 1 fucking home game? Were's the pressure? Were's the support? Is that someone who's going to spend any money? Even spurs have a better management structure than we do. Were's the leadership? Is that fucking good enough?

Not sure bout Letters.

Pretty sure GB said yes though

I guess stan will have to be more active this summer when the lockout agreement ends :shrug:

Still wish he would fuck off as well tbh.

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Originally Posted by AKBapologist

Bollocks, our players arn't good enough. We pay through the nose and we get shit in return. I want ticket prices lowered or for the club to actually invest in the fucking squad. Because the relationship between money and performance is so blindingly obvious, that unless we litterally sign SAF, there is a better chance at doing worse if we continue the whole unsustainable sustainability policy we've been doing.

Oh, it's just Wenger who doesn't want to spend? So sack him and who ever comes next will sign players? Ask yourself this, how long do you think AVB will be at chelsea? If Macini was trophyless this season? Do they just magically walk away all by themselves if they fuck up for long enough? And where the fuck is Stan?? He's been to 1 home game since taking over, 1 fucking home game? Were's the pressure? Were's the support? Is that someone who's going to spend any money? Even spurs have a better management structure than we do. Were's the leadership? Is that fucking good enough?

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Dont worry.. our fans still think protesting or taking banners is childish. True change will be made by being keyboard warriors on a MB! :good:

This is the most gut-wrenching question of them all, and to anyone with a heart, it makes me very sad to contemplate. To me it comes down to two simple things.

Firstly, it depends on what is the real story with our finances, buying power and competetiveness in the transfer market. If wenger is still complicit in the under-funding of the team, then yes, he should go.

Secondly, you have to ask the question of leadership from within. Does he, or did he ever have (pre-installed arsenal tradition and passion in a readymade back four, aside) the ability to motivate, and get players mentally ready to do whatever it takes?

This impacts slightly on the first question, as I don't think pre-RVP, that we've had a captain or any leadership since Vieira left, and over reliance on youth has knocked the stuffing out of us. I think this is pivotal to the whole thing.

We lost our tradition and history to a degree when we moved and cleared out the old gaurd, who we replaced with kids too young or too "foriegn" to appreciate what The Arsenal are about. Wenger is part of this, and despite all the good things he's done, underestimating the impact of not rolling over that history through his rebuilding of squads is unforgivable.

Of course the board and their americanisation of the arsenal experience is to blame as well. So regarding the second point, he should be held accountable for destroying some of what it means to be a gooner. That is unforgivable.

I still believe he is a good man. A great thinker. Passionate, but a recluse. A genius at spotting talent, but with a stubborness that stops him listening to or carrying out the very basic principles of football.

I really am torn in deciding whether he can or will reverse those mistakes. Can he still manage a team to success? Yes. He's a top manager. But can he breath life back into THE Arsenal...i'm not so sure he can.

In the cold light of day, yes, he should go. With my affection for the man and what he was and what i still think he can be......there's still a apart of me that wants him to stay and succeed???

It's all so sad :(

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Originally Posted by Jeebus

I reckon the other two were letters and GB despite saying otherwise :ninja:

Out of sheer respectful love, they just couldn't help themselves :lol:

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Damn - you got me!

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Originally Posted by Syn

The thing I am most surprised about is that Wenger hasn’t walked. I think the majority have wanted a change of management for some time. And it surprises me that he has stayed after being ridiculed by some sections of fans and (probably) let down by his players. Which means he thinks he can turn it around. His job description might say to deliver 4^th place and a trophy would be ‘nice’ but not essential. I don’t think that is something Arsene is happy with.

Arsene is one of us. We joke about Wenger WUMing and being happy to pick up his £6m a year, but I genuinely think he is very unhappy with his job right now. He desperately wants the club to succeed - I don’t think that can be questioned. I also don’t think it can be questioned that he is doing a bad job - regardless of whether you believe he is unwilling to spend money or whether the board are not making much available. How such an intelligent guy can be so deluded of the ability in his squad (as well as - possibly - his own managerial abilities) is what is surprising.
He has a sense of perspective about everything else, it seems. Ask him about the Eurozone crisis and he’d probably give you an accurate summary. Ask him about the history of Petra and he’ll drop some knowledge. Ask him about the weaknesses of the current Arsenal team and he’ll give you some bullshit using his favourite phrases, topped off with a colourful analogy about something that isn’t remotely relevant.

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This is a real good summary to me.

I don't think he is deluded. I actually think he has fine morals and principles which are the underpinning of everything he has done. He expects players, as people, to educate, motivate and achieve success themselves. He obviously gives guidance, but I don't think he acts as a teacher should...he should have authority and demand what he wants as well as letting players learn for themselves. Part of that is giving the team a balance of youth and (winning) experience, which he has failed to do.

We could buy any number of the most highly rated youngsters going, but without a group of proven quality, experienced internationals to help blood these players, it's pointless.

His biggest failing if you ask me. Get the right players in, with the right experience, and you don't need the tactics so much. It's why our successful teams of the past were successful...they didn't need to be told.

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Originally Posted by Ach

Not if Wenger has a say in his successor then its the same old shit.

We need someone who can change everything about the team, from their attitude, mentality, their bottle etc all of which is sadly lacking under Wenger and getting a mini Wenger wont do us any good at all

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Makes no diffrence if he has a say in his successor or not tbh, Managers like Him and SAF will always get to recommend who they think is good for the job, does not mean the guy has to be a Wenger clone at all.

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Originally Posted by Jeebus

I guess stan will have to be more active this summer when the lockout agreement ends :shrug:

Still wish he would fuck off as well tbh.

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For me this is a bigger problem at the club, Not having 1 clear owner is messing us up big time, it be nice to have one man calling the shots not about 10 diffrent guys.

Really hope the ownership situation gets sorted out ASAP, It has been said before that Stan won't make big decisions till he owns the clun fully and we are seeing that now.

you do have to wonder, if our players are 'shit' and our manager is 'clueless' what does that say about the other 16 teams below us? paired with the fact that the top two couldn't even get out of their qualifying groups in the cl.

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Originally Posted by fakeyank

Dont worry.. our fans still think protesting or taking banners is childish.

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I don't think anyone has said that, what people have said is that fan protests aren't that effective. If the board only care about getting our money, and it seems they do, then paying money to go and protest is about as effective as the people who bought records in the wake of the John Lennon "bigger than Jesus" kerfuffle to burn them in protest...and then went out and bought replacements. They've still got our money, why would they care about a few banners?
Big, co-ordinated, sustained protest may have more effect but, in practise, that isn't going to happen.


What is childish is insults/abuse aimed at Wenger. It makes the people doing it look like toddlers throwing their toys out of the pram and detracts from their opinions which may well be sensible ones but expressed in such a childish way don't encourage engaging with.

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Originally Posted by AKBapologist

Bollocks, our players arn't good enough. We pay through the nose and we get shit in return. I want ticket prices lowered or for the club to actually invest in the fucking squad. Because the relationship between money and performance is so blindingly obvious, that unless we litterally sign SAF, there is a better chance at doing worse if we continue the whole unsustainable sustainability policy we've been doing.

Oh, it's just Wenger who doesn't want to spend? So sack him and who ever comes next will sign players? Ask yourself this, how long do you think AVB will be at chelsea? If Macini was trophyless this season? Do they just magically walk away all by themselves if they fuck up for long enough? And where the fuck is Stan?? He's been to 1 home game since taking over, 1 fucking home game? Were's the pressure? Were's the support? Is that someone who's going to spend any money? Even spurs have a better management structure than we do. Were's the leadership? Is that fucking good enough?

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While it be nice to win a trophy every season its not realisic to happen, as a club we have never really done back to back titles, cups unless is was the fa cup. So i don't expect us to change that now. Just as 10 -13 years ago we never signed big players, When you could buy a world class player for 15-20 Mill tops, so i don't expect us to sign them now when they are going for silly money.

With the budget Wenger has had i think he has done a marvellous job, But he does need to take the blame for some of the players he has signed. Do i think he should go because of not spending and not winning trophy's in 7 years? No

I think he should go because i don't belive he can take us any further anymore. Even if he went out and spent money on world class players,i still think he needs a change from Arsenal.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't think anyone has said that, what people have said is that fan protests aren't that effective. If the board only care about getting our money, and it seems they do, then paying money to go and protest is about as effective as the people who bought records in the wake of the John Lennon "bigger than Jesus" kerfuffle to burn them in protest...and then went out and bought replacements. They've still got our money, why would they care about a few banners?
Big, co-ordinated, sustained protest may have more effect but, in practise, that isn't going to happen.


What is childish is insults/abuse aimed at Wenger. It makes the people doing it look like toddlers throwing their toys out of the pram and detracts from their opinions which may well be sensible ones but expressed in such a childish way don't encourage engaging with.

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Just think people are frustated with him knowing what he has done for us in the past, im not condoning anyone calling him names, think people feel he is taking the piss etc. Until we actually know whats gone on in the club he will take the flack from fans unfortunately.

And Also you have to remember we are in the a place that most Arsenal fans never thought they see spurs finishing above us, Yes it was going to happen one day but most though later rather then sooner, and the fact its happening under Wenger is made him more hated by fans. Just as the Recssion Under Labour made them more hated by the GBP.

first time i've voted yes to one of these

Yes because I don't think he is giving us the best possible chance of success.

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

Just think people are frustated with him knowing what he has done for us in the past, im not condoning anyone calling him names, think people feel he is taking the piss etc. Until we actually know whats gone on in the club he will take the flack from fans unfortunately.

And Also you have to remember we are in the a place that most Arsenal fans never thought they see spurs finishing above us, Yes it was going to happen one day but most though later rather then sooner, and the fact its happening under Wenger is made him more hated by fans. Just as the Recssion Under Labour made them more hated by the GBP.

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I understand and share the frustration but expressing it by insulting Wenger, calling him a French **** etc, it just detracts from the debate about what's going on at the club.

Some people on here are too young to remember the days when finishing below Spurs was not uncommon. In the early to mid 90's it happened 3 years out of 6. It happened 4 times in the 80's. In that era there wasn't that much between the sides. Younger fans have become used to having the bragging rights over our North London rivals and the thought of finishing below them has become unthinkable. They may do well to remember that it's only become that way because of the level Wenger took us to.

All that said we shouldn't be finishing below Spurs simply because success in football has increasingly become about money and in theory we should have far more resources than Spurs, a much bigger stadium, we charge much more to go to games, we've been in the CL year on year and we have a bigger global fanbase. Spurs over-taking us is the result of mismanagement throughout the club, not just from Wenger.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I understand and share the frustration but expressing it by insulting Wenger, calling him a French **** etc, it just detracts from the debate about what's going on at the club.

Some people on here are too young to remember the days when finishing below Spurs was not uncommon. In the early to mid 90's it happened 3 years out of 6. It happened 4 times in the 80's. In that era there wasn't that much between the sides. Younger fans have become used to having the bragging rights over our North London rivals and the thought of finishing below them has become unthinkable. They may do well to remember that it's only become that way because of the level Wenger took us to.

All that said we shouldn't be finishing below Spurs simply because success in football has increasingly become about money and in theory we should have far more resources than Spurs, a much bigger stadium, we charge much more to go to games, we've been in the CL year on year and we have a bigger global fanbase. Spurs over-taking us is the result of mismanagement throughout the club, not just from Wenger.

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I keep banging on about the basics, but that's what it comes down to.

I know money talks, and 'Arry loves a deal, he does; but he still does the basics. He adds quality, and experience to teams....and in January, despite having a half decent strikeforce, bough Saha at a snip. They were playing well anyway, but what Wenger failed to do when we were going for the league last year, and in previous years, was to add to the squad to ENSURE we did as well as we could.

You're right though. Given the resources at both clubs, we should not be behind by such a margin.

Player for player, we're not that far off them, mind. But we have a piss poor mentality, so again, 'Arry wins, because he get's da lads upfer it. They're cracking lads vey are.

no because no one else can do a better job under such a small budget.

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Originally Posted by Dicks and chicks

no because no one else can do a better job under such a small budget.

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They couldn't do any worse

:someidiotwhowisheshewasamerican:

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

While it be nice to win a trophy every season its not realisic to happen, as a club we have never really done back to back titles, cups unless is was the fa cup. So i don't expect us to change that now. Just as 10 -13 years ago we never signed big players, When you could buy a world class player for 15-20 Mill tops, so i don't expect us to sign them now when they are going for silly money.

With the budget Wenger has had i think he has done a marvellous job, But he does need to take the blame for some of the players he has signed. Do i think he should go because of not spending and not winning trophy's in 7 years? No

I think he should go because i don't belive he can take us any further anymore. Even if he went out and spent money on world class players,i still think he needs a change from Arsenal.

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I agree with you. I think that AW cannot work on the players' heads anymore.