Wenger Out?

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Originally Posted by The Ogg Monster

1)Arsene Wenger is the most successfull Arsenal F.C manager of all time
2)We are top of the league.
3) We have qualified for the champions league ahead of Spurs who have spent far more and achieved far less.
4) Who do we replace him with? (Ozil stated he joined mainly because of Arsene Wenger, who called him, spoke in GErman and persuaded him Arsenal was the best place for him.
5) Arsenal F.C have, whilst qualifying for Cl every since the Cl started, achieved a profit that equals/almost equals, i cant remember, the profit made by every other PL club put together! (I think this is true)
6)Who do replace him with please?

Ive yet to hear a convincing argument as to who would do a better job. I believe this is because all that call for Wengers head are reactionist fools who have no sight of the long term. AW is a genius manager who brought us into a new staium and has found a way to keep us in the top four despite Man City and Chelsea having unlimited cash, or financial doping as the great man once put it.

Just look at Spurs (lol) who have changed manager time and time again, spent FAR more than us, and achieved FAR less.

Arsene Wenger is a one in a million manager who we need to keep as long as the human boday can keep a man managing a football club for.

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You are exactly the kind of Arsenal fan that the board wants. Let me take you back to the early days of success for Wenger & building work on-site at Highbury. We asked Wembley if we could play our Champions League games there & got 80,000+ for a few home games - WOW thought the board, if we had a bigger ground we could make alot more money from the poor bastards on the 8 year waiting list at Highbury. But how can we get our fans to agree to move from the History of Highbury. Well, that's easy, we'll tell them that we're doing it to become the biggest club in England & compete with the best in the world. These were words echoed by Arsene.
What they forget to tell us was that this would all take about 10 years, just incase some of us didn't want to buy a season ticket to watch us consistantly trying to finish fourth by doing exactly the opposite of what we were promised - "competing".

As Arsenal fans we are all living on former glory - Wenger's early success gave us the need for a bigger stadium but the difference was how we view success. Fans like you view it through a lovely stadium with money in the bank, others want what we were promised. Another few years of Wenger & we won't need the Emirates - we'll ground swap with Orient & give that prick Hearn the big stadium he wants so that his 4,000 fans can go & have a dozen seats each.

Do you seriously think we'd have stayed in the top 4 had we stayed at Highbury?
I realise that shouldn't be the only aim but we've got more chance of competing if we stay in the top 4 than had we slipped into mid-table.

If we were still at Highbury we'd be fucked right now.

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Originally Posted by GayPete

If we were still at Highbury we'd be fucked right now.

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If you want to be a self-sufficient club, sooner or later we would've needed to make the step up. Even the spuds realise that and I've always said I respect the way they've handled the club at upper management. Now it's clear we are fucking loaded and sustain higher wage bills and high transfer fees with the higher revenues coming in. Exciting times ahead, it seems. Shame FFP is a fairytale myth but even so we should compete.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Do you seriously think we'd have stayed in the top 4 had we stayed at Highbury?
I realise that shouldn't be the only aim but we've got more chance of competing if we stay in the top 4 than had we slipped into mid-table.

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Absolutely - if we had bought sensibly & strengthened the Invincibles team with like for like players & then got rid of the dead-wood on the board, let Mr Dein bring in his Russian mate to give us some spending money why the hell not. Chelsea have a shit awful stadium & they have won the C.L Ffs - not just qualified.
Why on earth would we have slipped into mid-table - they doesn't say alot for the "wonders of Wenger"

We’d have stayed top four at Highbury. Man Utd and Chelsea were the only teams with crazy spending power back then and we weakened our team as a result of the move to the Emirates. We’d probably have serious problems now sustaining top four now that the teams below us have gotten better with more money and better managers.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

We’d have stayed top four at Highbury. Man Utd and Chelsea were the only teams with crazy spending power back then and we weakened our team as a result of the move to the Emirates. We’d probably have serious problems now sustaining top four now that the teams below us have gotten better with more money and better managers.

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Thank god for this post - there are some sense on GW this afternoon

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

Thank god for this post - there are some sense on GW this afternoon

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He's basically saying you're talking rubbish and that we needed the move.

A bit rich questioning the move a bigger stadium. Sure some dishonesty was involved, as the whole truth wasn't told about how long it would take us to start competing on the pitch again, but it appears to be paying off now. Bit late, but as the old saying goes, better late than never.

We've been patient...... well some of us, ie (I'm not even part if that 'us' ffs), and now we've just made our record signing. And what a signing it was. :cloud9: Brighter days seem ahead, and I'm willing to tentatively have some faith in Wenger, at least till January through May, to see what exactly was this vision he used to convince Ozil to come here.

If I'm left feeling duped again, then so be it. Comes with the territory of being a passionate supporter of the Club I reckon.

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Originally Posted by Syn

If you want to be a self-sufficient club, sooner or later we would've needed to make the step up. Even the spuds realise that and I've always said I respect the way they've handled the club at upper management. Now it's clear we are fucking loaded and sustain higher wage bills and high transfer fees with the higher revenues coming in. Exciting times ahead, it seems. Shame FFP is a fairytale myth but even so we should compete.

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:good:

Really, this whole argument comes down to short-term glory vs long-term security. Would we have stayed in the top 4 over the last few years if we'd stayed at Highbury? I think absolutely yes we would have, and, what's more, I think we'd have won a lot more along the way too. Would we have been able to stay there and continue winning trophies going forward? I'm not so sure. I mean, anything's possible in football, but our main rivals would have had a huge advantage over us each year, and the job would become increasingly more difficult as the financial gap continued to widen, and the number of piranhas in the tank continued to grow. I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but, as you say, you only need to look at clubs like sp**s and liverpool, who are desperate to do the same, to know that it was probably a necessary move. That's what I'm clinging to anyway - after all, why would a club like sp**s, who are so painfully close to cracking the top 4, be looking to put themselves through 5-10 years of restricted budgets, if they didn't feel they had to?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

We’d have stayed top four at Highbury. Man Utd and Chelsea were the only teams with crazy spending power back then and we weakened our team as a result of the move to the Emirates. We’d probably have serious problems now sustaining top four now that the teams below us have gotten better with more money and better managers.

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We wouldn't have stayed top 4 for as long. The only sides to do that consistently have had loads to spend either because they're bankrolled or have massive stadiums and fan-bases. I personally wouldn't want us reliant on a sugar-daddy. It's not much of a long-term strategy.

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

Would we have stayed in the top 4 over the last few years if we'd stayed at Highbury? I think absolutely yes we would have, and, what's more, I think we'd have won a lot more along the way too

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I'm not following the logic of that opinion? You think in a 'sport' where money and success are increasingly correlated we'd have done better with a lot less money?

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Originally Posted by Syn

He's basically saying you're talking rubbish and that we needed the move.

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If you read things properly I've never said we didn't need the move. I said it was part of the lies told by the board & Wenger. Long term the move is great with a fantastic asset on our books & double the capacity but basically we are a football club & as a football team we are worse than we were 8 years ago, we don't compete at the top table & we are not viewed by anyone as one of the worlds top teams.

It's pretty naive to think the team wouldn't suffer in the short term while the front-loaded commercials deals had time to run.

There were no lies told there.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I'm not following the logic of that opinion? You think in a 'sport' where money and success are increasingly correlated we'd have done better with a lot less money?

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United have spent far less than Chelsea & City & still won the league last year. If we hadn't been paying of Stadium debt how much money would we have had less?, can you follow that Logic?

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

If you read things properly I've never said we didn't need the move. I said it was part of the lies told by the board & Wenger. Long term the move is great with a fantastic asset on our books & double the capacity but basically we are a football club & as a football team we are worse than we were 8 years ago, we don't compete at the top table & we are not viewed by anyone as one of the worlds top teams.

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But if we look back at those 8 years and see it was just a blip in history then quite frankly it's nothing.

For all the stick we've given Wenger it does seem more and more like he was right all along.

There was fuck all money to spend. Hence the recent quotes from board + himself.
He stuck by players like Ramsey and he's now reaping the rewards.
He turned youth players like adebayor, flamini etc into established household names. Maybe patience was the key.

I dunno but it's easy as fans to sit and think he done a shit job but we don't really know the truth. He should have spent in key areas over the years because he took underinvestment to the extreme, we all agree on that. And we all agree that tactically he was shocking, especially the defence, which was allowed to get away with murder week in week out. But now we're looking like we might improve. So as he was given such a rough ride during the past 8 years, maybe he's allowed to enjoy the new funds and be given the opportunity to take us back to the top :shrug:

If we go into february having done fuck all in the transfer window again then fine. But up until now, we're doing fucking amazing.

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

United have spent far less than Chelsea & City & still won the league last year. If we hadn't been paying of Stadium debt how much money would we have had less?, can you follow that Logic?

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As discussed, Utd had Fergie. Will they win it this year without him? I don't think so.
Fair point about the stadium debt I guess but the sooner we moved the sooner we could start paying that off. Longer term it was the only option. Spurs have done well over the last few years but they're looking to move now so they'll be paying off a stadium debt which will affect their spending just at the time we're starting to have serious money to spend.

The last 8 years have been painful at times, more painful than they should have been and I do blame Wenger for that, but the Özil signing showed he's not averse to spending big when he's got the money to so maybe he really couldn't have done much more previously.

:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

United have spent far less than Chelsea & City & still won the league last year. If we hadn't been paying of Stadium debt how much money would we have had less?, can you follow that Logic?

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The stadium move had to be done.

We are a massive club with a massive waiting list. Staying at Highbury would have been an archaic move, hindering us in the future, especially in the age of enhanced commercialisation. Being stuck in a 38k capacity stadium in the modern game? It's ludicrous. Look at Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs doing everything in their power to try and move to a bigger stadium, it's just crucial in the modern era.

I don't agree the extent to which the board + manager went to exhaust a youth model which was practically flawed, nor will I ever forgive them for the utter embarrassment I've had to face as an Arsenal fan over the past 8 years living in British society. But it's done now. The poor, shoddy players that represented this club are largely gone and we are looking like we might move forward.

Some of us on here have been his biggest critic, to the extent we've fuelled a civil war on this forum. But when you sit and think about how tough his job has been then you can't help but feel he's had to do it the hard way. Liverpool lost Alonso and have finished 7th/8th ever since, well Wenger had to deal with top players leaving every summer yet kept us in the top 4. Yes most of the wounds were self-inflicted but as I said earlier, if it was just an 8 year blip, then fuck it. Let's move on and enjoy the good times :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Letters

I'm not following the logic of that opinion? You think in a 'sport' where money and success are increasingly correlated we'd have done better with a lot less money?

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No, I'm arguing exactly the same point that you are. The key part of that sentence you've highlighted is "over the last few years" - basically, I'm saying that, if we'd stayed at Highbury instead of moving stadium, then we would have had more available money to spend on the team in the immediate / short-term, and therefore probably would have won more over the last 8 years because of it. However, I'm also saying that it wouldn't have lasted, and that, ultimately, we needed the move to the bigger stadium, with it's increased revenues, if we want to see sustained success in the future...

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

No, I'm arguing exactly the same point that you are. The key part of that sentence you've highlighted is "over the last few years" - basically, I'm saying that, if we'd stayed at Highbury instead of moving stadium, then we would have had more available money to spend on the team in the immediate / short-term, and therefore probably would have won more over the last 8 years because of it. However, I'm also saying that it wouldn't have lasted, and that, ultimately, we needed the move to the bigger stadium, with it's increased revenues, if we want to see sustained success in the future...

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Well what a pointless point to make then. I think we all know that.

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Originally Posted by Letters

We wouldn't have stayed top 4 for as long. The only sides to do that consistently have had loads to spend either because they're bankrolled or have massive stadiums and fan-bases. I personally wouldn't want us reliant on a sugar-daddy. It's not much of a long-term strategy.

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You’d have to really question Wenger’s managerial skills if he couldn’t hold off Aston Villa, Everton and Spurs for top 4. It would have been scandalous for us to finish anywhere outside of the top 4 during that period.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

You’d have to really question Wenger’s managerial skills if he couldn’t hold off Aston Villa, Everton and Spurs for top 4. It would have been scandalous for us to finish anywhere outside of the top 4 during that period.

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With the amount of money we have I'd say 4th is about par - Utd, Chelsea and City all have more money than us.
But with the amount of money clubs like Spurs and Liverpool have spent to try and unseat us in the top 4 I don't think staying above them has been as easy a task as you're making out.

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Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

Well what a pointless point to make then. I think we all know that.

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If we all know it, then why has everyone been we been arguing about it for the last 2 and a bit pages?

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

If we all know it, then why has everyone been we been arguing about it for the last 2 and a bit pages?

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Welcome to GW.

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

If we all know it, then why has everyone been we been arguing about it for the last 2 and a bit pages?

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Tony Blair said we could. It was on BBC news this morning.

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Originally Posted by Letters

With the amount of money we have I'd say 4th is about par - Utd, Chelsea and City all have more money than us.
But with the amount of money clubs like Spurs and Liverpool have spent to try and unseat us in the top 4 I don't think staying above them has been as easy a task as you're making out.

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The last couple of seasons haven’t been easy and we’ve spent money to stay in the race but I get the impression you’re thinking of the Prem in its current state as if it was like this after we left Highbury. In fact, it’s as if your forgetting we were Champions. Take City and their billions out of the equation because they weren’t around. Liverpool had a top 4 team around those times under Rafa but they were never a threat to us like Man City are now. Do you really think Spurs under Martin Jol should have been pushing Wenger to his limits? Or Everton and Villa in those years? No way should it have been a possibility for us to have dropped out of the top 4 and been a mid-table team. Be serious.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

The last couple of seasons haven’t been easy and we’ve spent money to stay in the race but I get the impression you’re thinking of the Prem in its current state as if it was like this after we left Highbury. In fact, it’s as if your forgetting we were Champions. Take City and their billions out of the equation because they weren’t around. Liverpool had a top 4 team around those times under Rafa but they were never a threat to us like Man City are now. Do you really think Spurs under Martin Jol should have been pushing Wenger to his limits? Or Everton and Villa in those years? No way should it have been a possibility for us to have dropped out of the top 4 and been a mid-table team. Be serious.

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Totally agree

Back to the original theme of the thread, I'm happy enough to keep Wenger on for a bit longer - the man may have his flaws as a tactician, but if he can sell off his best players every summer, and start each season with a bunch of bargain-basement misfits and youth players, and still manage to finish 4th (behind 3 of the richest clubs on the planet), then I have no problem with seeing what he can do each year with a settled squad and serious money to strengthen it with (even if it turns out someone else is forcing him to do the spending). I also think that a lot of the little things we've been grumbling about for years have started to be quietly addressed, so I'm prepared to give him a bit of credit for that too - the coaching team has been refreshed, we seem to be giving a bit more thought to the defensive side of our game now, the attitude of the players looks better, contracts renewals are getting sorted out earlier, the dead wood is steadily being cleared, and big money is starting to be spent on top players. We've even started getting more British players in the squad (for anyone who ever gave much of a toss about that to begin with)! All positive little signs that things are maybe starting to change for the better.

That being said, I'm nowhere near as worried about losing him as I have been over the last 8 years, when everything's been so tight. As a club, we're now in a pretty good position - the academy takes care of itself, we have a new team of executives and suits to take care of the business side of things (although they could still do with another couple of windows to practice transfer negotiations!), and there's large sums of sustainable money coming in each year - so whoever eventually takes over from him really shouldn't have anything to worry about other than training the first team. That really does open up the pool of candidates we can at, and the new revenues give us a bit of a safety net if we make the wrong appointment (we should be able to survive without CL football for a bit if the worst happens now)...

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

Totally agree

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The originally move from Highbury to the Emirates was for the purpose of competing with clubs like Man Utd and Real Madrid. Not staying in the Top 4. Gazidis has come back out to realign that vision when speaking about Bayern and Dortmund. Some fans are getting it twisted.

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Originally Posted by Coutinho Is Boss

Welcome to GW.

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(I'm loving it really - it's nice to have something Arsenal-related to talk about that's not transfer gossip!)

I think there tends to be less to discuss when things are going reasonably well, i can't imagine what the Bayern Munich forums were like last season


"So we are all agreed, we are pretty f**king awesome?"
"Ja!"

I tend to think if AW is awarded a new contract that this one should contain a clause to say that the offer of an extension will only be forthcoming in the event of winning a trophy.....i don't think he should be allowed to sign on to contract extension after contract extension without winning anything and i tend to think he'd be the first person to agree with that. I wonder if he will see what he is able to win this season before committing to a new contract and if he does win something (even the league or fa cup) than i'd be more than happy for him to stay.

As much as some of his interviews make him seem oblivious to fan opinion i think he knows exactly what the majority of fans think and feel, he is too smart not to....the Ozil signing as well as being a player he liked (what's not to like?) he knew it was something he had to do to keep us onside.
So for the moment at least he has bought himself time, and take away the Villa game which is looking more and more like a statistical anomaly (and i hope that doesn't come back to bite me) considering our injury woes our start to the season has been pretty good and i think he does deserve praise for that.
Starting tonight we have some pretty tricky fixtures leading up to the next lot of internationals and if we remain unbeaten to that point i think that can be seen as a definite plus.

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

Back to the original theme of the thread, I'm happy enough to keep Wenger on for a bit longer - the man may have his flaws as a tactician, but if he can sell off his best players every summer, and start each season with a bunch of bargain-basement misfits and youth players, and still manage to finish 4th (behind 3 of the richest clubs on the planet), then I have no problem with seeing what he can do each year with a settled squad and serious money to strengthen it with (even if it turns out someone else is forcing him to do the spending). I also think that a lot of the little things we've been grumbling about for years have started to be quietly addressed, so I'm prepared to give him a bit of credit for that too - the coaching team has been refreshed, we seem to be giving a bit more thought to the defensive side of our game now, the attitude of the players looks better, contracts renewals are getting sorted out earlier, the dead wood is steadily being cleared, and big money is starting to be spent on top players. We've even started getting more British players in the squad (for anyone who ever gave much of a toss about that to begin with)! All positive little signs that things are maybe starting to change for the better.

That being said, I'm nowhere near as worried about losing him as I have been over the last 8 years, when everything's been so tight. As a club, we're now in a pretty good position - the academy takes care of itself, we have a new team of executives and suits to take care of the business side of things (although they could still do with another couple of windows to practice transfer negotiations!), and there's large sums of sustainable money coming in each year - so whoever eventually takes over from him really shouldn't have anything to worry about other than training the first team. That really does open up the pool of candidates we can at, and the new revenues give us a bit of a safety net if we make the wrong appointment (we should be able to survive without CL football for a bit if the worst happens now)...

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That's about the size of it for me too. I think Wenger would concur with the idea that we can see how he gets on for a little while at least before shoving a new contract in his grill.

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

United have spent far less than Chelsea & City & still won the league last year. If we hadn't been paying of Stadium debt how much money would we have had less?, can you follow that Logic?

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There is a 'correlation' between money and success - that differs from an absolute linkage between the two.

United got the balance right better than us, but that is hardly surprising given they had the best Manager in the history of the English game and weren't side tracked by the biggest capital infrastructure project ever taken on by a football club. Sure things could have - should have gone better with many of the decisions on the playing front - both in terms of tactics and purchases.

With hindsight however, I can't think of another top Manager who would have seen us through this move. But that is not to say he hasn't made some glaring mistakes - mistakes many here feel he should have been held accountable for. Lets be honest here - we were taken to the brink by this parsimonious strategy over the years. That is why our Suarez bid was laughed off. Now that we've signed Ozil - we have demonstrated our intent -no one will be laughing when (if) the next big bid is made. But we need to build on it fast. If we don't, then it is all for nothing other than having a world clas stadium hosting mediocre to good football.

We'll see soon what the true story is, and then it will be time to make an informed judgement. For the first time in many years, I'm hopeful that we have built a solid foundation that otherwise would have been impossible at Highbury.

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Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice

That's about the size of it for me too. I think Wenger would concur with the idea that we can see how he gets on for a little while at least before shoving a new contract in his grill.

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In some ways, there's probably a lot less pressure on him now than there has been over the last 8 years, even though he has been more or less untouchable? Sure his neck's on the block now, and he could lose his job if he doesn't perform, but what does that really matter to a multi-millionaire who's close to retirement anyway (and would likely have his pick of any number of other jobs or commentary positions)? I think he'll be feeling that that weight of responsibility [of thinking that the club's future rides on your careful management] has been lifted from his shoulders now, and that all he has to do is play around with the first team, and "spend some f--king money". If it all goes wrong, then so what? One man loses his job, and the club roll on. No serious harm done. It must pale into insignificance compared to what he'd have been fearing could have gone wrong if he'd/we'd (tee hee hee - "he'd weed") f--ked up that period when the stadium build was still under way...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24295263

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"The good thing with me is you don't need a lot of talks to extend the contract I have," he said.

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Seems to me that he wants to stay. :unsure:



Edit - More from his press conference this morning reflecting on Kroenke's interview yesterday

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-arc...roenke-tribute

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-arc...l-an-adventure

Some interesting bits I thought,

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"Honestly, I would love to be here forever because that would mean I would be immortal! I'm not naive enough to believe that. What I would like to do as long as I am here is give my best for this club because I love this club of course."

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"I don't know [when I will sign a new contract]. When we find time. I don't think that's the most important problem at the moment. It's straightforward and I don't think there's anything more to add to that."

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Happy 17th anniversary to Wenget.

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/m...r_1396315c.jpg

Arsene Wenger :bow:

Despite his infuriating tendancies....

There is only one Arsene Wenger.

:scarf: :scarf:

I would dearly love him to win us the league again. Fuck the cups and everything else. Win the fucking league. Go on. For us, for the players and for him.

:crying:

February 1st.

If he's signed a top class striker then he can happily sign on the dotted line.

Not now. We need to see if he's serious about winning trophies.

What's changed since last month, we won a few games and we made one very good signing. Doesn't deserve a new contract based on that, let's see where we are at the end of the season when the prizes are handed out.

Agreed. I think everybody thinks the same.

Doesn't mean I don't want him to win us something though :d